Chat:World/2020-08-25

jrke: whose bot is spring challenge gold boss?

Counterbalance: can't find it here: https://cg.spdns.eu/wiki/Chat:World/2020-05-13

Uljahn: jrke: python one?

Counterbalance: that's when the gold boss was introduced.. maybe it's mentioned the next day

Uljahn: ah, i thought of the OoC sry

SpotlessCoder: Hi I'm streaming the clash on twitch @ twitch.tv/spotlesscoder - Please visit my channel! :) - Best of luck!

wlesavo: jrke if i remember right it was Npi2Loup

jrke: ok thanks

jrke: i have one doubt from end contest till now can dead pacs see?

wlesavo: jrke no

Marchete: https://cg.spdns.eu/ that's cool!

wlesavo: Marchete praise dbdr

dbdr: seems Marchete has not been very active recently :D

dbdr: aka last 6 months or so

jrke: are there any pragma for speeding up in c++

jaehwanspin: now I am LV.3

wlesavo: #pragma GCC optimize "Ofast,omit-frame-pointer,inline"

jrke: oh then i know them

jrke: btw thanks

Mykes: :cop_tone1: :man_tone5: :cop_tone2:

huy123: hi

AntiSquid: dbdr that proposed wiki logo looks creepy, ban the person who suggested it from the wiki

wlesavo: and take this one instead https://static.codingame.com/servlet/fileservlet?id=44990769450746

wlesavo: damn, is it me or jbms logo looks unapropriate? he ruined cg logo for me

hipiha: What is the bug with condinGame? I need to reload every time.

JaggBow: I'm having the same problem in CoC

Jh2006: also mine, i can't immediately get in the clash

Jh2006: using firefox

hipiha: using safari

AntiSquid: i thought that that's dbdr who suggested it lol wlesavo

wlesavo: AntiSquid i mean this one https://imgur.com/a/1372dNa

wlesavo: this should be a CoC logo

LegendNeverDies: Cant start code wars, it is freezing at 0

LegendNeverDies: does anybody familiar with it?

Uljahn: LegendNeverDies: yes, it's been reported on discord, staff is aware

LegendNeverDies: Thanks

[CG]Thibaud: it works if you F5. I've told my colleagues

Koblstein: Clash of Code is lagging as well

Roma_Shteyninger: i need help

Roma_Shteyninger: Surakarta

Roma_Shteyninger: help plz

alirezadigi: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1351531993c8329aaf45195f4e115944cc4be19

alirezadigi: sorry

AntiSquid: yes wlesavo that's the one i meant, it's creepy hahah

C0d1ng_Anub: I think code should be shared in clash of code automatically.

C0d1ng_Anub: It's annoying when other don't share

AntiSquid: #clash alirezadigi, no sorry, don't post it here please

AntiSquid: click that clash link with hash

MSmits: C0d1ng_Anub clashes repeat when you do them often enough (say over 200 of them). If you think you have a really good solution, would you really want someone else to use it against you?

AntiSquid: C0d1ng_Anub what if others don't want to share? seems fair

MSmits: If you do... at least understand the reason not to want this

AntiSquid: ugly code / better golfed solution for higher rank etc

C0d1ng_Anub: But how do i learn a better approach then?

MSmits: many do share code, also google golf tips

C0d1ng_Anub: Ah okay :sweat_smile:

grateful_tomato: is it possible to join only clash of code matches with one of the 3 categories, e.g. shortest code?

MSmits: nope

jrke: private clash have options but you need to have your own friends for playing it.....

Zuabros: Clashes have a very low cap score

Zuabros: only 5000 score

Zuabros: With just basic skills you can soft cap that

Zuabros: there's no need to hide your code

Zuabros: as it seems that even people that never clash are ranked altogether

AntiSquid: there's a difference between want and need though

AntiSquid: arguably the contest points don't really matter either, just the contests themselves

AntiSquid: the coding points i mean don't really matter

jacek: so im either 1st, 2nd or 3rd in othello, depeding who spam submits

hipiha: Can I import something in python in clash of code?

jacek: only the standard things of python

hipiha: ok

Alshock: More precisely: Python3 3.7.4 Includes NumPy 1.16.2, pandas 0.24.2, SciPy 1.2.1

grateful_tomato: would be nice to have J ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language) ) as well, this would win every shortest contest

JBM: go suggest it on the forum and then wait for them to ignore it

JBM: unless you've got a J mob available to astroturf it

Uljahn: or invite D mob for the task to make it DJ mob

eulerscheZahl: i saw some really short and completely unreadable J code on project euler

jacek: sounds like my production code

eulerscheZahl: if it compiles, ship it

Illedan: Ship it and never look back.

eulerscheZahl: my PR got refactored before it was merged into master :D https://github.com/CodinGame/codingame-game-engine/commits/master

eulerscheZahl: 5 commits just to clean up after me

Illedan: haha

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: eulersche Zahl one day i will overcome you an be in 1st place

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: remember my words

eulerscheZahl: i will. and i wish you the best of luck on your mission

eulerscheZahl: i'm definitely beatable

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: so whats your fav lang

eulerscheZahl: and aCat found a funny bug in the SDK which I could break down to this: https://github.com/CodinGame/codingame-game-engine/issues/33

Illedan: Then stop wasting time on chatting.

eulerscheZahl: C# rocks

uvBoss: xD

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: oh ok i like java and js and im going to learn php

eulerscheZahl: java feels like a clumsy version of C# to me. In fact C# is Microsoft's answer to Java and a lawsuit about copyright

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: ok

eulerscheZahl: JS: had to use it a bit for a game i'm working on. not my favorite but usable

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: how long have you been 1st

zizo1337: euler did u ever code on unity?

eulerscheZahl: PHP: i'm biased and never really gave it a chance

eulerscheZahl: 1st and 2nd go up and down since CG changed the ranking formula

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: i mean i do alot of website programming so i need js and or at least php

zizo1337: i prefer razor of asp over php

eulerscheZahl: i did some unity back in university

eulerscheZahl: unity: http://zuse1.efi.fh-nuernberg.de:8050/interaktion/index.php5/SkyRoads there's a screenshot of the game

eulerscheZahl: and the code at the bottom. long ago

eulerscheZahl: so far i mostly used Django for web development

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: ok

eulerscheZahl: but most of the time i'm writing desktop applications

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: linux?

eulerscheZahl: at work i'm on windows. at home it's all linux

zizo1337: im on linux too but i use windows when it comes to winforms,WPF

Hjax: so yesterday i asked about the heuristic jrke is using for dots and boxes, but then i forgot to check chat again :D

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: if u wanna protect your data the best way is linux and vms on linux

eulerscheZahl: https://cg.spdns.eu/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex?prefix=World%2F&namespace=3000 have fun Hjax

Hjax: is that an archive of the entire chat

eulerscheZahl: yes

eulerscheZahl: also Fr and Ru

AntiSquid: https://cg.spdns.eu/wiki/Chat:World/2020-08-24

eulerscheZahl: say thanks to bdbr

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: windows is pretty ridicolous when it comes to data protection

AntiSquid: ctrl + F : hjax

eulerscheZahl: or usability :imp:

AntiSquid: lol

AntiSquid: are you serious?

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: preference

AntiSquid: no windows is easier to use in most regards

AntiSquid: in fact the secure part of linux sometimes is a kick in the foot when you try to do something ... gave me lots of headaches

eulerscheZahl: funny thing about that chat history: it's a wiki so it still supports wiki syntax

eulerscheZahl: like

a headline

eulerscheZahl: or

eulerscheZahl: <math display="block">\text{geometric series:}\quad \begin{align} \sum_{i=0}^\infty 2^{-i}=2 \end{align}</math>

eulerscheZahl: come back tomorrow to see it :D

AntiSquid: and sometimes i can't use stuff that works on 18.04 for 20.04 (ubuntu)

AntiSquid: guess it's not that "stable" yet

eulerscheZahl: the dist upgrade broke my microphone settings :/

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: yes it needs a lot patience, vms for games e.g

AntiSquid: vms for games?

eulerscheZahl: sounds laggy

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: games which you can only play on windows

AntiSquid: lol maybe windows will need a vm soon

eulerscheZahl: i play with wine occasionally. but i only play older ones anyways

AntiSquid: some games run better on ubuntu 20 with the right graphics card, don't blame the system

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: ok but r6 for example

AntiSquid: or manjaro

AntiSquid: what's r6?

zizo1337: alot of windows games gets ported to linux

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: rainbow 6 siege

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: since a lot of programers are working on the OS its gonna get better

AntiSquid: ah just to clarify, was referring to recent updates on steam, they added a lot of support

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: at least in terms of usabilty

AntiSquid: see how to enable proton on steam

AntiSquid: planet zoo btw doesn't run on windows for me

AntiSquid: but runs on linux

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: its supposed to run on windows isnt it

AntiSquid: but even if you don't use steam there are lots of alternatives and they get quick updates, see lutris, wine ... etc

AntiSquid: NoiselessDictator_aeca yes it is, but it didn't for me at least, so it's funny to see one game that works on linux but not windows when it's a windows game to begin with

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: ok

AntiSquid: but what if i want to run other software generic stuff that doesn't get support on linux? i still need windows

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: its definitely worth it since china and others is collecting data

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: you can setup a Virtual box

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: with windows on it

AntiSquid: but that defeats the purpose

AntiSquid: and cuts down on system resources

AntiSquid: and you still use windows!! basically

AntiSquid: maybe in another decade you can say goodbye to windows

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: yes but its a lot safer and they cannot just take your data

AntiSquid: you can be unsafe on linux and safe on windows too

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: you can make a virtual box and just use it for gaming

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: nothing personal dat

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: data

AntiSquid: if you use google / facebook on linux then how much safer is your data?

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: linux is open source

AntiSquid: i think we are talking past each other

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: you can make one acc for gaming and the personal stuff on linux

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: linux will always be safer than windows because it is open source and they are not collecting data like windows does

AntiSquid: what linux do you use anyway

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: well i dont use linux but going to it in the future

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: use*

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: and its easier to use + my pc is not that good

AntiSquid: really? what OS do you use?

AntiSquid: windows 10 ?

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: yes

AntiSquid: then you are better off with ubuntu in terms of performance

AntiSquid: or get a light weight version

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: i dont like it but it more comfortable

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: i would have to setup a virtuel box for windows 10 to play games

AntiSquid: not really no

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: but like I said perhaps in the future

AntiSquid: what platform do you play games on ?

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: how do you do which games i play

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: epic, riot, rockstar

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: blizzard

AntiSquid: blizz is lame, they ban for using wine sometimes they are best to be avoided anyway

AntiSquid: but you can still play on wine the low quality acti-blizz games

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: yes ik but u gon need it for rainbow

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: what if i dont like the low quality acti-blizz games lmao

zizo1337: blizz can detect that u are playing on wine?

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: they ban you if you play on a virtual box

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: yes

zizo1337: i thought they were undetectable

AntiSquid: are you sure? lol

AntiSquid: no zizo1337 it's if you add some extension which trigger their hypersensitive anti-cheat system or whatever it is

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: the youtuber someordinarygamers got banned on blizz while using a box on linux

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: he played r6

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: anti cheat is ass

AntiSquid: and sometimes games won't work immediately after an update zizo1337

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: lol i have to go bye

AntiSquid: but . linux makes updating drivers much easier for example

NoiselessDictator_e4c4: nice conversation tho

AntiSquid: NoiselessDictator_aeca get kubuntu

Laminator: what up yall

Hjax: i still dont see the strategic depth in dots and boxes

jrke: ;)

Hjax: my submission is 60 lines of code and won a game against yours :P

jrke: but just one

Hjax: i could golf it too, its just some messy inefficient python

Hjax: yeah but my bot is practically the naive / greedy solution, why is it winning any games

Hjax: watching your bot play i can predict its move basically every turn

jrke: you won another one

Hjax: theres a few tricks i havent added yet

jrke: nice

jrke: i think you are pushing me down

Hjax: :D

Hjax: losing to tric and dbd r

jrke: seems you have good strategy against me

jrke: what again i losed

jrke: you pushed me 3rd

Hjax: all hail king tric :P

eulerscheZahl: i don't want hail. only glory

Hjax: all glory to the hypnotoad

Hjax: yeah i have 0 wins against tric, illeda n, dbd r, and leojean

Hjax: but i went 5-2 against you jkre

Hjax: jrke*

jrke: dunno why this is happening :thinking: and you are winning when you are player A right?

Hjax: looks like it yeah

Hjax: we are both deterministic, so we only play 2 games

jrke: oh found one bug

Hjax: going to crush me now? :D

jrke: yup

jrke: but i don't believe myself in rank prediction :stuck_out_tongue:

Hjax: you beat me, but now you lose to tric and illeda n

jrke: ya

jrke: will fix it tom>>

jrke: gn

Hjax: gn

Tom.py: ERROR 404

MSmits: lol I just submitted the silly heuristic bot I could have gotten out of wood 2 with in 20 minutes

MSmits: iguess you get halfway up the ladder in wood 1 with that

Hjax: my bot is currently about 20 minutes of work

Hjax: so yeah XD

MSmits: my first version solved 2x2 :P

MSmits: on turn 1

darkhorse64: silly: score when you can, otherwise random place ?

MSmits: I used mcts solver. The reason I did this is to make sure I find bugs early

Hjax: i really dont think this game is hard to solve though, like it doesnt seem strategically deep at all

MSmits: thats true for 2x2, not for 7x7

MSmits: it has much strategic depth

Hjax: really? i feel like theres probably a heuristic strategy that plays perfectly

MSmits: nope

MSmits: whole books have been written about the math of this game

darkhorse64: There is a full book dedicated to D&B strategy

MSmits: 5x5 and smaller have been solved

Hjax: huh interesting

Hjax: so it only looks easy

MSmits: but even though 5x5 seems not much smaller than 7x7, it's probably a factor of a million less complex

MSmits: if not more

jacek: the game looks like you could have decent bot with just nice heuristic without search

MSmits: my bot solved 2x2 in 8 ms

MSmits: 5x5 took someone 8 years

MSmits: of run time

jacek: so how long would took you 3x3

MSmits: not sure, probably less than a day with my inefficient algorithm

MSmits: but 3x4 would probably take many days

jacek: challenge accepted?

MSmits: nah, i want to make a working bot for 7x7

MSmits: i mean one that has a search

MSmits: and does proper chain analysis

MSmits: first the chain analysis and solver, then the actual search, I'll have a simulation that returns 0 for a while

jacek: so five minutes to learn, a lifetime to master

MSmits: yeah

Hjax: ok well, im satisfied with my crappy 20 minute heuristic

jacek: i jsut realized there are no draws on 7x7 *_*

Hjax: when are getting chess, id definitely play chess

Hjax: did struct die, i havent seen him in a while

Hjax: computer chess is super interesting imo

Hjax: lots of really deep theory, lots of room to book people, but even with a great book you dont get a free win

jacek: so youve heard about nnue

Hjax: ive heard about nnue yes, but ive been following computer chess for years

Hjax: since like TCEC 5 or so?

Hjax: im not sure NNUE would be good on codingame though

Hjax: given the upload size, potentially old processors running the games, and time limit

jacek: nnue has 40960 inputs so...

Hjax: you could make a smaller network, but even so, would it beat a hand crafted eval

jacek: im using something similar for breakthrough, that is NN as eval, trained firstly on handcrafed eval + some depth. and it works

Hjax: really the big breakthrough of NNUE is that its incrementally updated and can make good use of the SIMD instructions

jacek: yeah, i only update relevant squares

Hjax: ah so youre similar then

jacek: im too dumb for simd or avx yet

Hjax: using a neural net for eval is hardly new, but NNUE is crazy fast

jacek: they just found relevant inputs that are nn-friendly

reCurse: ^ this really

Hjax: it got ported from shogi right

reCurse: Yeah

reCurse: AFAIK the real important thing about NNUE is not so much what it does but that it's cpu friendly

reCurse: Makes it possible to combine with a deep and fast search like stockfish's

jacek: i.e. side-to-move before was just another bit, while in nnue you have technically 2 different nets for side to move

reCurse: That's about it really, its eval is way inferior to leela

Hjax: leela has been sort of meandering around recently, doesnt seem to be making any new breakthroughs

reCurse: Disclaimer: personal opinion

Hjax: still plays very drawish chess

Hjax: its of course quite good

jacek: eval is inferior to leela, but speed is still 100x or more

reCurse: Sure because search matters more than eval in chess

reCurse: Apparently so anyway

Hjax: that was actually part of why people hadnt tried NNs much in chess even after alphago

Hjax: they were thinking that since chess was so tactical, the faster hand crafted eval would win out anyway

reCurse: Yeah but in practice though leela should be better

reCurse: Subtle early positioning rippling way into the late game

reCurse: It's just extremely expensive to train so

Hjax: a common complaint is that its unfair to leela because most chess tournaments use books

Hjax: removing leelas opening positional edge

reCurse: That's extremely debatable

reCurse: The eval also has an equivalent of opening book

reCurse: Well, the policy more so

jacek: now they complain nnue can contain some sort of 'book'

Hjax: it is, personally i disagree, but its a common complaint

Hjax: a great chess engine plays great chess from any position

reCurse: Some positions are more exploitable than others

Hjax: also chess is a drawfest if you dont have unbalanced book exits

Hjax: at long time control + powerful hardware + table bases

reCurse: Sure

reCurse: It's also been extensively studied by humans for centuries and computers for decades

reCurse: Any balanced game will lead to the same result given sufficient time

Hjax: watching sf nnue play cccc has been pretty entertaining

Hjax: its so rare to have a breakthrough where one engine just starts crushing everyone

reCurse: I still find there's more value in leela's NN if only that it shows more potential understanding than search

reCurse: But to each its own views

reCurse: The fact it performs incredibly well with so few nodes is quite amazing

Hjax: leela is definitely really cool

reCurse: NNUE's eval seems a lot more like... how to say...

reCurse: Sporadic lighthouses guiding stockfish's search near the coast

reCurse: If that makes sense

reCurse: If you take the eval at any given point it's quite noisy

Hjax: yeah leela plays better chess than me if you just take the first move from her policy

reCurse: Or in other words...

reCurse: It's relying on the search being able to reach a move down the line where it will make the eval jump

reCurse: Like a beacon really

reCurse: Leela's eval is a *lot* smoother

Hjax: yeah this is true

reCurse: Again, my personal interpretation

Hjax: stockfish only cares about elo

Hjax: so if it plays good moves, they dont really care

reCurse: Well that's true for all engines

reCurse: I just find more value in examining leela's eval and policy

reCurse: As a human

reCurse: It probably has subtle understanding of known concepts like open files and such

reCurse: That are way more insightful if we can ever inspect it properly

Hjax: some pro chess player (carlsen?) one said playing a chess engine feels like playing an idiot who beats you every time

Hjax: i would imagine leela feels more natural

reCurse: It relies more on something akin to 'experience'

reCurse: More relatable

Hjax: i wonder if leela will make any more big breakthoughs, i would expect it to be able to keep pace with stockfish, but things have seemed slow recetly

Hjax: recently*

reCurse: Without NNUE it would have become dominant I think

reCurse: If the strength balance is more towards search than eval then I don't see leela having any chance

reCurse: But we'll see

Hjax: im also interested to see where NNUE goes, is there a lot more elo to squeeze out of the current network architecture? or is it always saturated

Hjax: already*

reCurse: It seems way too hackish to be anywhere close to optimal IMHO

Hjax: i agree, but it seems like the most effort is being put into testing new hacks on when to use each eval

reCurse: If all you care is results then it's the path of least resistance

Hjax: switching between two evals in a a/b framework just seems disgusting to me

reCurse: If you care about research that's another story

reCurse: When you get something that new and weird and seemingly effective around

reCurse: You get tons of people throwing whatever at it and see what sticks

reCurse: Same with RL a few years ago

Hjax: yeah, the logic thats being added to SFs evaluate() method is just..... gross

MSmits: I've noticed it's pretty hard to even measure that one thing is better than another thing

Hjax: but i guess if it adds elo its good

Hjax: according to SFs philosophy

MSmits: unless it's very clear ofc

jacek: but they test it via selfplay

Hjax: well stockfish has fishtest for its patches

MSmits: jacek that's even worse I think

jacek: how do they overcome overfiting

reCurse: Depends how exploitable a strategy is

reCurse: It's very possible we're already somewhere in the global optima, so then it doesn't matter

reCurse: Or at least something like it, then the true global optima is truly well hidden

Hjax: yeah i think the assumption is that stockfish plays strong enough chess that an improvement in selfplay is almost always an improvement in general

edwin-py: whats the best codingame?

reCurse: This one

edwin-py: which one?

reCurse: This

jacek: :soccer:

edwin-py: so clash of code?

reCurse: Sure

MSmits: what I've noticed from experimenting with a lot of different games against partially deterministic bots is that they are easily exploited. So to there has to be some randomness at least. Does stockfish always play the same move in the same position?

MSmits: given the same calculation time that is

Prince349k: simp

reCurse: That's extremely debatable

edwin-py: stfu prince

reCurse: This is not a classroom

Prince349k: xD

Hjax: stockfish wont play the same move if you are searching with multiple threads

reCurse: Keep your banter off or get banned

Hjax: because lazy smp is super timing sensitive

Sourabhingale: how to learn to code games in this

edwin-py: aight

MSmits: ok thats good I guess Hjax

reCurse: Randomness is only good if the optimal strategy is mixed

reCurse: Otherwise it's bad

Hjax: lazy smp is a weird beast

MSmits: the problem is that you probably dont have the optimal strategy

Hjax: they basically let a bunch of threads fight over the transposition table

Hjax: and search at the same time

Hjax: and somehow it plays good moves

reCurse: Sure, but you can probably see whether it's likely mixed or not

MSmits: what do you mean by mixed exactly?

reCurse: In case of chess I heavily doubt it's mixed

reCurse: That the optimal strategy is to play randomly between different moves

reCurse: Think RPS

MSmits: hmm

Hjax: chess definitely isnt mixed strat, theres an objectively correct move in every position

Hjax: that you can prove

reCurse: Prove??

reCurse: Maybe in endgames

Hjax: well, given infinite resources

MSmits: that's true for every game

MSmits: perfect information non-random i mean

MSmits: non simultaneous

Hjax: are there perfect info, non random, non simul games that are mixed strat?

MSmits: there's always a best move, or multiple ones

dbdr: mixed strategy can only be optimal in smultaneous-move games

reCurse: Sure Hjax

reCurse: I think CSB has some mixed strat

reCurse: Oh non simul

reCurse: NVM

Hjax: yeah so im pretty confident chess isnt a mixed strat game

reCurse: I'm not well versed enough in game theory to assert that

dbdr: the optimal strategy is always to play the minimax move

Hjax: ^

MSmits: yeah

dbdr: going to the roots

MSmits: so there's 1 best move or multiple

dbdr: leaves sry

MSmits: but it never should depend on your opponent

MSmits: unless you know the opponent and counterbooked him :P

jacek: the best move is not to play

dbdr: that assumes perfect opponent

MSmits: yes, but you have to

reCurse: Well if we care about nash equilibrium yeah

reCurse: If you care about leaderboards then no

Hjax: game theory doesnt care about how hard your game is, it just cares about perfect play

MSmits: right

MSmits: hard is a weird statement for multi player games

dbdr: again, nash is for simultaneous

MSmits: unless it means one player has a handicap

Hjax: *hard* being game tree size i suppose

reCurse: Um, not necessarily?

reCurse: Nash is optimal in general

reCurse: It can be a dominant strat or mixed

reCurse: Unless there's semantics I'm failing

dbdr: how could it be different from minimax?

MSmits: it cant be for what you mean

MSmits: non simult

Hjax: for non simul perfect info games games, there always existss a dominant strat, that strat being to play the minimax move

MSmits: 2 player

Hjax: yeah

MSmits: perfect infomation

reCurse: Sure but isn't that also a NE?

reCurse: The minimax?

MSmits: mmh not sure, I thought so

Hjax: uh, yes technically

dbdr: I guess it's a degenerate case

reCurse: Sure but when you say NE that's perfect play

reCurse: Regardless of mixed or dominant strat

reCurse: So it seems a superior term to me

Hjax: i think usually when people refer to NE they are implying a mixed strat

Hjax: but yes thats not necessarily the case

reCurse: Really?

reCurse: I didn't think so

MSmits: it's because mixed is more complicated

dbdr: potentially mixed. might be 100% one move

MSmits: if you want to understand NE you need to understand mixed too

reCurse: I guess

reCurse: I can't see a better term to designate perfect play in all scenarios though

Hjax: have you guys seen the rps programming site?

reCurse: Yeah

reCurse: That's the perfect example of NE vs leaderboards

Hjax: its super interesting

reCurse: It only exists because some bots are not following NE

Hjax: because the random agent doesnt do well at all, because the best agents exploit the exploitable ones

reCurse: Shows the limitation of NE in practical scenarios

reCurse: Like leaderboards

Hjax: also forced open source

Hjax: which is kind of a unique idea

Hjax: for that kind of competition

dbdr: same happened in poker

MSmits: mmh you could also just have some bots using an inferior NE, because they have less simulations, using a slower language etc.

reCurse: No in case of RPS it's definitive

MSmits: that also gives RPS effects on leaderboards

reCurse: The NE is known

reCurse: Infallible

MSmits: oh do you mean the actual game RPS:

MSmits: ?

reCurse: Yes

Hjax: yes

MSmits: owwww

dbdr: a team solved poker up to epsilon, but another team beat them by better exploiting weaker bots

Hjax: theres an actual programming site where people play RPS

MSmits: yeah i know

Hjax: on the RPS leaderboard im sure theres a bot that always plays rock, so your bot better be able to beat it

reCurse: It took me a while at first to understand why it's even a thing

MSmits: i was just confused, we use the term for other games too

Hjax: you cant just play the mixed strat

jacek: there is some rps demo in cg

reCurse: But then I realized it's all about exploiting the weak

reCurse: Like real world

dbdr: reCurse says shifumi for that :)

Hjax: yeah ^

dbdr: not exactly, real world has a lot of non-zero sum situations

reCurse: Sure, you know what I mean though

MSmits: just add a constant and it's zero again

dbdr: nope

jacek: such integral

dbdr: (to Msmits)

MSmits: then the problem is that it's a non-constant sum

reCurse: Change to 'exploiting others for self or mutual benefit' if it suits you better

MSmits: not that it's a non-zero sum

Hjax: now you are just being pedantic

MSmits: yes :)

dbdr: yeah, it's indeed non-constant

dbdr: no, it's a good point

MSmits: aw damn, i was going for pedantic

dbdr: :D

reCurse: You're still pedantic in my heart

MSmits: thanks reCurse :)

MSmits: gotta stay home from work this week till wife corona test is done :(

MSmits: she's probably negative, but can't go to work

reCurse: Been WFH for 6 months and looks like another 4 at least

MSmits: damn

Hjax: i only got to wfh for 2 weeks

reCurse: It has its ups and downs

jacek: just like elevator operator

Hjax: pros: cat on lap, cons: cat on lap

MSmits: and quarks

Hjax: that was my experience at least :D

dbdr: i've been WFH for 15 years :)

reCurse: Pros: no commute Cons: work longer because no separation

MSmits: why work longer?

reCurse: Because there is no separation

MSmits: oh

MSmits: you get disturbed during work?

reCurse: Thankfully not really

MSmits: why does it take longer then?

reCurse: Because work time and home time are overlapping

MSmits: it's still a choice isnt it?

reCurse: Sure

reCurse: Takes more discipline than say

dbdr: yeah, I found it's better to concentrate first, then call it a day and mean it

reCurse: Oh I better leave at 6pm because I got 45 mins commute and don't want to be home too late

MSmits: right that's true, you have to keep an eye on your work hours

reCurse: vs

Hjax: cgp grey made a good video about that

reCurse: Oh it's 6pm but I could finish this first since I can go off instantly

Hjax: called Quarantine Productivity: Spaceship You

Hjax: about how important it is to have separate spaces for things

reCurse: Takes a lot more discipline to manage

Hjax: when you are locked up in your house

dbdr: yeah, CGP is usually very interesting

MSmits: reCurse can't you also just stop an hour earlier the next day?

Hjax: his videos are all fantastic

reCurse: You keep bringing rational solutions to a discipline problem

MSmits: mmh true

Hjax: recurse is saying he doesnt have an incentive to stop working

Hjax: because hes home anyway

Hjax: so he just works and works and works

Hjax: i think

reCurse: Partly yes

reCurse: It's all psychological

MSmits: hmm ok

dbdr: write a virus on your machine that stops you from working <= technical solution

reCurse: I hate the commute but I like the time off to separate

dbdr: (at certain times)

reCurse: Hard to explain if you don't feel the same way

eulerscheZahl: he has that virus already: windows update

MSmits: that has gotten more horrible

Hjax: recurse do you work in the same room you relax in?

reCurse: Yeah

eulerscheZahl: came back from lunch today and it took ages without logging me back in, did a hard reset

MSmits: i remember the time when they were voluntary, the i[dates

MSmits: updates

eulerscheZahl: thank god VS has a file recovery

Hjax: at least cgp greys suggestion would be to separate the two spaces

Hjax: to help give your mind a line between the two things

Hjax: work and relaxing

reCurse: I didn't purchase my place with wfh considerations

reCurse: Unfortunately

dbdr: seems using windows = masochism :D

eulerscheZahl: wasn't my free choice

reCurse: At least not for that long of a period

dbdr: you always have a choice ;) but I know what you mean

reCurse: linux gui = masochism

reCurse: This is objective truth

MSmits: I agree

eulerscheZahl: i love my i3

dbdr: ^

MSmits: i3?

Hjax: thats the really simple tiling one right

eulerscheZahl: doesn't look nice and shiny but fits my workflow to get things done quickly

dbdr: i3wm

Hjax: its a window manager

MSmits: oh

Hjax: but you dont drag things around

Hjax: you assign them to parts of the screen with hotkeys

MSmits: oh noes, hotkeys

Hjax: the screen is always full, divided into sections

eulerscheZahl: one window => full screen add a second window => split screen in half

reCurse: I've tried various guis on and off for at least 20 years

MSmits: you made some yourself

reCurse: They always are so far behind windows it's not funny

reCurse: For desktop I mean

MSmits: ah

eulerscheZahl: depends on your requirements

MSmits: yeah thats the one thing thats stopping me from using any other operating system

Hjax: yeah every linux distro i try always has some weird config issue in its gui that makes it clunky and annoying

dbdr: what advantage does windows have in that respect, according to you?

eulerscheZahl: i don't need nice colors. quickly moving my windows where i need them has top priority for me

Hjax: for instance when i tried KDE recently, whenever i rebooted it would forget the layout of my monitors

Hjax: and setting up my monitors after every reboot got annoying fast

MSmits: I had to use an ubuntu installation on a vm for a while. I thought the gui was horrible

eulerscheZahl: and i only have 1 monitor, that part cant get messed up

Hjax: oh you probably were using unity

Hjax: unity /is/ horrible

dbdr: Hjax: sounds like something that could be automated

reCurse: It's hard to describe UX in few words

MSmits: unity?

MSmits: I like unity

reCurse: Almost like MS invested millions if not billions in that

Hjax: ubuntus home grown desktop environment

dbdr: definitely don't do anything manually when it can be automated

eulerscheZahl: ubuntu doesn't use unity anymore, does it?

jacek: unity3d?

Hjax: optimized for touch screens instead of desktop

Hjax: and then shipped onto desktop

MSmits: yeah jacek

dbdr: ubuntu uses gnome 3 now

Hjax: yeah because they realized unity was terrible

MSmits: their gui is not so great, thats true

Hjax: idk, i just want a desktop environment that just works

Hjax: i dont want to have to config things

Hjax: automate things by hand

Hjax: i just want it to work

MSmits: i like unity for giving so much for free that usually needs expensive software

eulerscheZahl: me too. my i3config is still pretty basic

reCurse: I mean they're unfortunately working hard on W10 to regress

reCurse: But they still have decades of studies to back them up

Hjax: windows driver support is still unparalleled

eulerscheZahl: just a few shortcuts like windows+M to open monodevelop

Hjax: want to run a game on linux, well i hope it works in WINE

Hjax: because if not youre out of luck

dbdr: sure, it's a different philosophy. windows or mac probably have a reasonable thing by default, but many things cannot be changed or automated easily

reCurse: With WSL what's the point of even booting linux on my desktop

reCurse: inb4 FSF arguments

eulerscheZahl: with wine what's the point of booting windows? :D

Hjax: games

EveryOS: WSL does not work with all Linux software

reCurse: Are you really going there

eulerscheZahl: yeah, just reversing the arguement

reCurse: WINE is at best a hack

Hjax: graphics drivers that dont sap 50% of the performance off of my expensive graphics card

MSmits: reCurse do game devs usually use windows?

reCurse: Yes

MSmits: i thought so

dbdr: I never need WINE these days

Hjax: pretty sure they almost always use windows

Hjax: linux graphics driver support is a nightmare

Hjax: half supported official drivers and half baked open source ones

reCurse: I'll say WSL has done a lot more to bridge the gap than WINE

reCurse: For understandable reasons obviously

reCurse: I'm talking strictly from a practical pov

Hjax: WSL had awful IO at first

Hjax: but i think they fixed it now?

reCurse: WSL2

Hjax: yeah

reCurse: And awful... always depends on your workflow

reCurse: Don't expect to run a production db from it obviously

Hjax: i think i was doing starcraft ai stuff in WSL when i last tried it

Hjax: starcraft took a solid 5 minutes to load

dbdr: I think we are two groups of Stockholm Syndrom victims from different kidnappers talking to each other :D

reCurse: Oh ok that sounds fair

reCurse: I thought I mentioned objective truth earlier /s

Hjax: 5 minutes to load from a SSD.... definitely awful

reCurse: It's right in the pitfall

AntiSquid: honestly, give ubuntu 20 or latest manjaro a try, a lot changed, installing drivers is super simple

AntiSquid: even have latest graphics drivers installed, just look up nvidia ppa for example on how to setup ... just one initial setup then it's automated for you afterwards

reCurse: Incentive is really lacking this time around

AntiSquid: steam is developing full support for linux games

AntiSquid: the initiative for me is the fact that i need the linux environment

AntiSquid: and WSL is silly

reCurse: WSL is the best thing that happened to windows in a long while, not sure why you say it's silly

reCurse: It has virtually eliminated most of my needs to have native linux

reCurse: Both for personal and work stuff

AntiSquid: it's a good tool if you have to rely on windows

AntiSquid: it's just not as good as a linux install

reCurse: There's an order of magnitude more stuff missing from windows on linux than the other way around

AntiSquid: such as?

reCurse: UI, software, tools, drivers, support...

AntiSquid: too many UI versions to pick from, drivers not sure what you mean found everything i wanted, maybe if there's something you're looking for atm i could give some directions?

reCurse: Thanks but I don't need help, I have almost no incentive to bother now thanks to WSL

reCurse: I'm just saying why

jacek: :o

AntiSquid: i can agree on the software part, some of it is difficult to make it run natively

AntiSquid: compatibility can be weird on linux inbetween version, but encountered similar issues between windows versions

jacek: so far d&b is quite meta. i win against illedan and some against tric, but lose to others

jacek: would euler like this game :thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toads_and_Frogs

MSmits: it's partisan

MSmits: ohh I see what you're doing jacek

MSmits: you're reading one of Elwyns books to become better at D&B and found that game at the start of it

MSmits: Winning Ways for your Mathematical Plays.

jacek: elwyns book?

eulerscheZahl: a game about toads, yay!

MSmits: Elwyn is the top expert on D&B

MSmits: don't pretend you dont know this jacek, you sneaky you

jacek: or maybe i discovered strategies on my own

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KboGyIilP6k

MSmits: this is 4x4 specifically

MSmits: or no, 3x3 i think

jacek: the comments "mastering art of swastikas"

MSmits: hehe yes

MSmits: it's the top strategy for that size

MSmits: you have to be white supremacist to win, it is known

reCurse: ...

MSmits: watch the video :P

MSmits: don't pre-judge

MSmits: it's actually pretty neat, every size increase adds new strategic elements

jacek: honeslty i havent heard of the guy. if my bot acts like him its pure coincedence

EveryOS: I decided to go back to CodinGame yesterday because it had been a while I'm now doing the TicTacToe game, which is rather hard. I'm at 6 in bronze league.

jacek: also, i treat score 25 as over. you can that after having 25 square the moves are random

jacek: ultimate tic tac toe?

EveryOS: Yes

DR1Rush: 1vs1?

EveryOS: Yea

DR1Rush: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1352175c90249b40afdc06150b5aeed43717d1e

mzztin: hi

DR1Rush: waoo, submit by error

DR1Rush: lol

DR1Rush: another

DR1Rush: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1352178b5bf9648ecc2a5cc3bca054e5009b689

DR1Rush: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1352181d0ac9dc4c6146f67a8670f1cbc9a7f98

EveryOS: Ya'll... didn't submit? Ran into the clash time limit?

jacek: maybe it was too hard

EveryOS: It was an easy code golf one But neither of the other players submitted I got 88 (went with JS despite being my least favorite language), but I dunno how that would've compared

Memo12334: in coders strike back, I am in bronz leaugue and got the collision thing now. Could anyone give me a strategy how I would tackle this challenge. Like a good enough way of giving thrust and what to do with the 400 units

EveryOS: Oh shoot, I resubmitted with new code, and I don't think I will get as high as my last submission

MSmits: jacek I didnt mean to say your bot was similar to anything. I only suggested you were reading books to improve your D&B (which is what I do)

jacek: mhhmm

Memo12334: sry

wajs: Going good?

AntiSquid: DR1Rush use #clash channel to spam that

AntiSquid: ah he is gone

11Firefox11: :neutral_face:

Schwase: YOOOOO