Chat:World/2022-07-05

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jacek: :upside_down:

aCat: chat alive

aCat: good morning

aCat: HOLD THE EXECUTION!

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wow server connection failed in all chats for a moment

Default avatar.png TheWaterCooledComet_63c: bruh

Default avatar.png SugarCoatedPencilCase_8462: bruh

Default avatar.png DoubleCube_568c: bruh

5DN1L: stop please

Default avatar.png DoubleCube_568c: fine :D

Default avatar.png TheWaterCooledComet_63c: nem azahriah a hibás

Default avatar.png FarkasZoli: biztos?

5DN1L: Please use English here

5DN1L: and observe the code of conduct, thanks. https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/40701/help-center/code-of-conduct

Default avatar.png SugarCoatedPencilCase_8462: no english

Default avatar.png TheWaterCooledComet_63c: no bicsiz?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: there is also a french chat if you speak that

derjack: Automaton2000 those are your last days, arent they

Automaton2000: need to check if you have a few more

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: savage response if you ask me

Default avatar.png DoubleCube_568c: enschuldigung ich kann nicht sprecht English

Default avatar.png SugarCoatedPencilCase_8462: nincs szuka

Default avatar.png pyprog: why so serious?

derjack: schmetterling!!! :rage:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: Automaton2000 do you believe these people can't speak english?

Automaton2000: understandable, have a nice day

5DN1L: spammers will get kicked out, DoubleCube_568c and SugarCoatedPencilCase_8462

5DN1L: you've been warned

Default avatar.png DoubleCube_568c: oh

Default avatar.png DoubleCube_568c: sry

Default avatar.png x8Sofie: hi

Default avatar.png Gati_Mate: :nerd:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yo

Default avatar.png x8Sofie: lol?

Default avatar.png pyprog: lal

Default avatar.png n00bmaster: sup

Ckami: :persevere:

JFB: Funny, 1st time I have been promoted to Legend with bot doing sometimes (and rather often) forbidden moves :-)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: in green circle?

JFB: Exactly :-)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: they chose the wrong boss

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: for more than one league probably

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so now everyone and their mother is in legend

JFB: :-)

JFB: It is only 192 bots in legend now - so around 10% of participants

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: figure of speach :)

derjack: speek

BlaiseEbuth: oO

JFB: But you are right - if bot not checking do move is valid or not can be promoted ... ;-

derjack: they brought back mirror matches? :tada:

BlaiseEbuth: Eeyup

gokubill: start

Default avatar.png xx_holly: slay?

xx_zero: slay.

Default avatar.png xx_holly: what you wanna slay

Default avatar.png xx_holly: and let the...

5DN1L: no spam here please

xx_zero: slay slout!

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/40701/help-center/code-of-conduct

Default avatar.png xx_holly: sorry we are just clashing hard

xx_zero: sorry

Default avatar.png xx_holly: you don't tell noob master off, just cause i'm a women in STEM

5DN1L: spammers will get kicked or banned, you guys have been warned

Default avatar.png xx_holly: we were literally in the middle of a clash

5DN1L: just don't spam here, whatever you do

Default avatar.png xx_holly: okay:thumbsup: i'm still going to slay in my clash

5DN1L: thanks

Westicles: is it necessary to define gcd for a clash, or is that common knowledge?

derjack: great circle distance?

5DN1L: green circle debt

Default avatar.png Smai: You crack me up 5DN1L :rofl:

5DN1L: oh heehee, that's unexpected

5DN1L: hmmm, I don't think it's necessary to define greatest common divisor as the full name has been given. it's pretty self-explanatory

Westicles: yeah, that's what I thought

derjack: youll know it when see the number of 1-starts

derjack: stars even

Westicles: I wish they showed stars for clashes, you don't get feedback unless it is removed

j4at: Well, they are busy removing the chat :upside_down:

BlaiseEbuth: A lot of precautions are needed to avoid deleting the whole website and the database with it.

derjack: lets leave it on friday evening

Westicles: better run the backup script

Westicles: https://chadok.info/codingame/

derjack: sometimes you find bugs so bad you start questioning reality

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: :upside_down:

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: :thumsup: :thumbsup:

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: +

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: +

struct: stop spamming

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: srry xD

Default avatar.png wianpic: here is so smart people, it is so unexpected

Default avatar.png tevaaa: Hey do someone know hot the general ranking of clash works ?

Default avatar.png tevaaa: like is speed more important tham having 100%

Razovsky: no

5DN1L: tevaaa different modes rank differently

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it depends on what mode you're playing, but accuracy is generally the most important stat

5DN1L: for fastest and reverse: pass % > time

Razovsky: for speed CoC, the evaluation is on score and time, but if u do 0% faster, ull be better than longer 0% but below slower 1%

5DN1L: for shortest: pass % > number of chars > time

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: what 5DN1L said

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: xD

5DN1L: wanna say something, Pinguin6454 ?

JASSIEL: hello world

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: nah i'm just quiet

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: and i understand 0% of the conversation on top

JASSIEL: i'm a just novice who can help me ???

5DN1L: so what are you going to do on this website? Pinguin6454

5DN1L: JASSIEL help you with what

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: 5DN1L i am lerning

Darleanow: Hey 5DN1L :))

5DN1L: Hi Darleanow

Darleanow: how are u fam ?

5DN1L: good thanks, and you?

Darleanow: i'm good too

5DN1L: Pinguin6454 Are you trying out any puzzle right now?

Darleanow: my brain feels lighter :)

5DN1L: good to hear that Darleanow

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jezz

5DN1L: what do you mean

Darleanow: (i think all i needed was to meet back old friends)

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jes im trying a one right now

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: 5DN1L

5DN1L: that's cool

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: naah how i said i am TRYING

Darleanow: xDDD

Darleanow: which one is it pinguin?

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: dont jugde me

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: The Descent i think

5DN1L: trying is better than copying answers without understanding it

Darleanow: i've started from nothing too

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: i am at the one with the space ship trying to land and destroying some thinks

Darleanow: okay, remember u need to get the biggest value from the input you are given :)

Darleanow: in the order (so it starts from mountain_0)

Darleanow: the hardest there is to get the logic when u start

Darleanow: coding isn't this hard for some puzzle, the struggle is the logic

Darleanow: you can even write it down on a paper

Darleanow: (i'm doing this a lot and it helps)

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jea i have a paper beside me and i use it but i zhink i am to stupid xDDD

Darleanow: don't say this !

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: xDD

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: :laughing:

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: ok i am in a internship and have to use C# xD

5DN1L: so you have previous programming experience right?

5DN1L: Codingame is not your first coding experience

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: it is xDD

5DN1L: oh

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: xD

5DN1L: if you have never learned any programming before, you may find it difficult to solve the puzzles here

5DN1L: this website assumes that you've learned some basics already

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jea i am here to lern this but my "teacher" does only know these methode

5DN1L: you can't learn basics here, this is not a tutorial website

5DN1L: maybe you can, but it's difficult

5DN1L: you need more effort to research things on your own

Darleanow: i've learned there 5DN1L

Darleanow: don't say it's hard, because it's just a pain in the ass

Darleanow: i'd recommend you to play clashes

5DN1L: you need to google a lot to know the syntax

Darleanow: use google while clashing

Darleanow: indeed, for whatever you need

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jea this is what i thougt but what can i do exept for googl and tutorials

Darleanow: sometimes i'm doing stupid google query's for basic things i've forgotten

5DN1L: some coding websites are specialised in teaching syntax

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I do that constantly

Darleanow: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/clashofcode

Darleanow: spam this

Darleanow: believe me

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: i would rather work with java

Darleanow: it's from there that i've learned the msot

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: don't

Darleanow: and google

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: if you don't have the basics, 15 minutes is not a lot

Darleanow: he can use google

Darleanow: ofc he won't finish the 20-30 first ones

Darleanow: or maybe he will

Darleanow: but he will leanr

Darleanow: anything

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: well I guess it's a start

5DN1L: yeah, it depends on whether Pinguin6454 likes that approach of learning

Darleanow: also he can watch solution from the ones who did it

Darleanow: that's just my opinion afterall

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: Pinguin6454 java and C# are pretty similar, so it doesn't matter too much which one you choose

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: watch solution is a good way to learn indeed

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: as long as it's used in the right way

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: don't try to memorize the solutions, only memorize the language

Darleanow: well said !

j4at: c# > java

j4at: :)

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: jea i try thanks for the tips

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I don't like how C# was originally windows-only

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: :thumbsup:

StevenV: oh

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: ohh

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: Siuuueeee

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yesterday I saw a new multi in the makings that would be added: rock paper scissors. the guy did it as a joke, but the community response was overwhelmingly positive. anyone knows what happened to that multi

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ?*

struct: I don't think it will become a multi

darkhorse64: and I hope it will stay as a WIP

StevenV: too many legend

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: too many legend?

StevenV: for greencircle

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: was talking about rock paper scissors :p

StevenV: np, I will soon get to legend :D

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: letz play rock paper scissord

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: rock

Arrrthur: scissors

Default avatar.png Pinguin6454: oh i wo xDD

derjack: hmm https://github.com/dennylslee/rock-paper-scissors-LSTM/blob/master/README.md

Default avatar.png Sakenz: hi

eulerscheZahl: struct 03:08ᴾᴹ I don't think it will become a multi darkhorse64 03:09ᴾᴹ and I hope it will stay as a WIP

eulerscheZahl: you must be talking abo troll vs castle

struct: rock paper scissor

eulerscheZahl: i know :P

j4at: rock paper scissor, Finally a game that I can do good at :)

struct: less random than green circle :)

struct: I'm joking, I think the top bots prove that green circle is not that random

j4at: It should really get accepted

derjack: right after tvc

struct: yeah the contribution probably had a lot of time invested on it

struct: and it would be a quality multi

Astrobytes: Add fog. You never know what your opponent drew until the end of the game when the scores are revealed.

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: then I'd just choose random moves

Astrobytes: indeed

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wouldn't be very interesting

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: made me chuckle tho

struct: There is actual strategy

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'm assuming you're talking about the non-blind version?

Astrobytes: I know I know, it was a joke

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: no I mean struck

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: struct*

struct: ah the fog one

Astrobytes: I was responding to struct :P

struct: if you dont know the score sure

struct: its just random

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: if you do know the score, you might as well know what the opponent played

j4at: NN for rock paper scissors LMAO

Astrobytes: isn't the strategy something to do with the frequency of whatever move your opponent makes?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: j4at derjack posted this https://github.com/dennylslee/rock-paper-scissors-LSTM/blob/master/README.md

Astrobytes: I mean, it works with humans

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: Astrobytes not only the frequency

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: also what moves come after what

Astrobytes: yeah, paper after rock so play scissors etc

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: well yeah maybe it all comes down to frequencies

Astrobytes: it's behavioural too

Astrobytes: Human behaviour that is

Astrobytes: Can't replicate that so well with a program

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I guess what it comes down to is: "given our previous moves, what is the chance opponent will play this?"

Astrobytes: More or less I suppose

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ideally, in an infinitely long rps game you'd write a neural network that tries to capture the behaviour of your opponent

Astrobytes: Bunch of different opponents and shedloads of games I'd say

Astrobytes: opponent 1 plays favouring one move in particular, 2 plays random, 3 tries to counter etc etc

Astrobytes: thereafter, self-train until sentient enough that it gives up on that silly game

Astrobytes: :P

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: 5DN1L, I did the onboarding puzzle with some kind of NN

5DN1L: that's really quick :open_mouth:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: well

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I think I did at least

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: nn has 3 nodes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'd count that :p

5DN1L: does it pass the test case all the time?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: sometimes it fails

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: most of the time it passes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's because I initialize it and let it learn during the puzzle

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: not a very standard approach, cut since this is such a simple problem, I figured it should be possible

5DN1L: during the puzzle :thinking: there are so few turns

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yep

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I had to make the learning rate decay in the right way

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and I wen from linear activation function to bounded linear

5DN1L: Forum post: You can check out my Onboarding solution 458 in C++ which uses a NN to do the min over the two distances, although the code doesn’t include the learning part of the NN.

5DN1L: ^ That approach is different from yours

5DN1L: oops 458 is the number of views

Astrobytes: that Agades one?

5DN1L: yes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: is there a way in which I can share a link to my code?

Astrobytes: Yeah, hardcoded the weights iirc, there are a few others too but I'm not sure what they did

5DN1L: is it published on CG? Aldoggen

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's published now

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I clicked the button at least

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's java

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I really wonder if I did it right lol

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: well, it works, so it's right in some way

derjack: NNs are forgiving in some ways

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the onboarding puzzle is forgiving too

5DN1L: Hmmm I can't find your code

5DN1L: but you should be able to get the link to your solution and share here

Astrobytes: or pastebin it

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/training/easy/onboarding/solution

5DN1L: go to this link then click your solution

5DN1L: you should get the link

5DN1L: should be able to*

derjack: i followed him and see the code

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: aah, maybe that's it

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: when I click on my solution, I don't have a way to share it though

5DN1L: you just copy the link from the url bar

derjack: https://www.codingame.com/training/easy/onboarding/solution?id=25373384

5DN1L: yes that

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: oh wow

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I was looking for something on the website itself

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: didn't realize the url changed

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ty derjack

derjack: SLP eh

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: slp?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: slowpoke? yep

derjack: single layer perceptron eh

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: uhuh

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it doesn't need more than that

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I got all the terminology straight from wikipedia

derjack: and i dont know what the code does oO

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I can walk you through it lol

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: there's a NN class, which is basically a container and wrapper for the nodes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the nodes store what nodes lead to them, together with the weights

derjack: whats the point of sources an d hashmap

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: what I just said

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so a node that's not an input node can get its value via that hashmap

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the implementation is a bit suboptimal, since all values are recalculated all the time

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: but since there's only one output node, it doesn't matter

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so NN gets the value of the output node, and returns if it's bigger than 0.

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and that's how we decide what enemy to shoot

5DN1L: wow this contribution https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/235798e04ab0d85662e83a8333f5272f9bcbf

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol it's cute

5DN1L: Not sure if the characters work in every language supported here though

darkhorse64: I remember Westicles found a way for C++. Yeah, very fine puzzle

5DN1L: Last puzzle which had similar character-issue was this: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/community-puzzle-frame-the-picture/194538

Astrobytes: Monkey Island reference in username, deserves an upvote :P

Astrobytes: (coloring book contrib I mean)

Default avatar.png Razerk: Hi there ! Is about to be lucky or not to complete the Mad Pod Racing (collision step) ? I put a slow before the checkpoint but sometimes the other car just pushes me away and then win

Default avatar.png MatteoS: hi

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: Razerk sometimes it's luck, sometimes you can do something about it. it's generally a pretty hard problem

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: see if you can come up with something :)

Default avatar.png Razerk: It's bronze league btw..

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I got to gold by mostly ignoring the enemy and just being faster. that's a strategy too I guess

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: though I don't think I can get much higher without doing something about the enemy

Default avatar.png Razerk: But the MOSt annoying thing here is this following one : I need to wait so much time to face the "BOSS"

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: you click "play my code" and there's a wait time before the video plays?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: that's because the server needs to calculate how the battle goes

Default avatar.png Razerk: Nah the video tells me to go into the area mode

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: okay, what exactly is going slow?

Default avatar.png Razerk: i do have a rank against others players

Default avatar.png Razerk: and I start at about 40.000 and i have to go to rank 1

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yes

Default avatar.png Razerk: A race is about 30 secs and i have to win like 15/20 races

Default avatar.png Razerk: i guess

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the idea is that if you're not better than the other players, you're probably not better than the boss

Default avatar.png Razerk: Yeah but it's so random

Default avatar.png Razerk: If i find a code which works

Default avatar.png Razerk: i'll go face the boss quickly?

Astrobytes: if your bot is good enough, it will take less time to rise in ranking because it will beat the others

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's a bit random yeah, but there are lots of things you can try that will improve you

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and what astro said

Default avatar.png Razerk: yeh make sens but .. random there

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: if you're better, it's mostly not random

Default avatar.png Razerk: Well I'll try to think otherwise

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: good luck :)

Astrobytes: If your bot is good enough, the randomness will go away

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: that's a better way of putting it lol

Astrobytes: yes, what Aldoggen said :D

Default avatar.png Razerk: Well

Astrobytes: lol, nah, 6 and half a dozen I'd say

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the randomness is a symptom of the fact that you're as good as the people around your rank

5DN1L: better than consistently lose :upside_down:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: )

5DN1L: ^ a split face

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it hurts

Astrobytes: yeah, if it sits at the bottom and loses score you know It Is Very Bad

Default avatar.png Razerk: I should work on the slow by example?

Default avatar.png MatteoS: fock

5DN1L: MatteoS there is no fork, and there is no spoon

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: only knives, the others went too soon

Astrobytes: can't just come in here dropping fock bombs, sort it out :P

Default avatar.png Razerk: too spoon* you mean

Astrobytes: :rofl:

5DN1L: lol

Default avatar.png MatteoS: :joy:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

Astrobytes: afk a bit, cya later if the chat is still here

5DN1L: when one has finished episode 1, one will probably not expect episode 2 will grow into entirely something else

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/training/medium/there-is-no-spoon-episode-1

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/there-is-no-spoon-episode-2

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: whoa yep

derjack: :upside_down:

Kururugi: How do we add the honors certification for programming languages on cg

5DN1L: by taking their tests

5DN1L: CG has finally fixed the "better than 99% of programmers" description

5DN1L: they fixed it 2 weeks ago

darkhorse64: Still not a 10x dev but at least a 100% one

5DN1L: when you view the profile in incognito mode it doesn't show %

5DN1L: or if you view others' profiles

Default avatar.png MatteoS: fock

eulerscheZahl: i'm not better than 99%? that's sad :(

Default avatar.png MatteoS: fock

5DN1L: time to kick...

5DN1L: do you want to be kicked, MatteoS?

eulerscheZahl: one more and i'll call it a flock of spam messages

Default avatar.png MatteoS: no please

Default avatar.png MatteoS: i am kick to french server

5DN1L: then please observe the code of conduct

5DN1L: don't spam

Default avatar.png MatteoS: ok sorry

KiwiTae: o/

Default avatar.png MXCODEX: .

Default avatar.png spritecan50: ?

Westicles: This coloring book thing looks cool but I don't understand what to do

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: flood fill

Default avatar.png spritecan50: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/0a392aa6-8ca0-41d7-be77-b0f8e5da0917

struct: floodfill cells that start at that location and are equal

Westicles: oh ok

Default avatar.png BabaYagaCELL: hello guys

Westicles: wcin.imbue(locale(""));

wcout.imbue(locale(""));

BlaiseEbuth: dabedi dabeda

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'm blue

MSmits: :blue_heart:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: :large_blue_circle:

Lynch[0]: /me

jacek: j4at do you use tensorflow and whatnot?

j4at: pytorch

j4at: jacek

struct: when will we see a NN on a multi j4at?

j4at: when i feel like it :p

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: when will you feel like it? ;) (sorry)

j4at: Maybe this week

j4at: mad pood racing

struct: breakthrough sim takes like 5 minutes to write

Default avatar.png MatteoS: :eggplant:

struct: and NN dominate there

jacek: j4at and you simulate in python?

j4at: Well struct sent me a simulation in go

jacek: you can tell who uses NN there

j4at: so I will use that

jacek: so how do you send stuff between python and go

jacek: or other language

Default avatar.png MatteoS: :eggplant:

j4at: depends if i use brutaltester i use sockets . If not I use stdin/stdout

Default avatar.png MatteoS: :peach::eggplant:

struct: stop spamming emotes MatteoS

struct: Next time it will be a ban

5DN1L: he can't resist it really

5DN1L: he has been warned :shrug:

jacek: struct when will we see your bt nn bot

struct: When I manage to make a NN

struct: I dont really understand self play training

struct: or w/e its called

eulerscheZahl: 5DN1L edited my forum post from 6 years ago :shocked:

5DN1L: only because somebody replied to it recently :)

MSmits: struct I think you just have your NN's play games against eachother and use the gamestates encountered in the game, as targets to train

MSmits: the labels are the values from the search

eulerscheZahl: i followed the title convention used at that time

eulerscheZahl: about the URL: right, should have added it

MSmits: because the values are gotten from many lookups and averaged, they tend to be better than a single lookup

MSmits: lookup being a nn.forward

MSmits: so you train your nn to output the value it would output after searching a tree

5DN1L: eulerscheZahl I have no idea about previous convention

MSmits: please correct me jacek

eulerscheZahl: don't worry, let's do it the way the community bot does now

eulerscheZahl: all good

struct: so if gamestate has value of lets say 0.7

struct: the NN forward should match it?

jacek: msmits eeyup

eulerscheZahl: was just surprised to see an edit in my notifications

MSmits: that would be the label yes struct

struct: but how would I give a value to a gamestate?

5DN1L: eulerscheZahl :ok_hand_tone1:

j4at: tensorflow keras is the best library to use according to contests winners stats. But Pytorch is better for research because lower level, and easier to implement more advanced algorithms. But for CG tf keras is probably better. jacek

MSmits: you run a mcts with EPT and do a forward from your NN every time

MSmits: like you would do with a normal mcts with EPT, except instead of eval it's a NN forward

jacek: https://www.chessprogramming.org/images/8/88/MeepStraps.jpg

MSmits: or think of it as replacing random rollout with a nn forward

jacek: V(position at root) -> V(leaf)

MSmits: you backpropagate the result just as you would in any mcts

MSmits: the reason this works is because you know the value of endgames

struct: But wouldnt the value of the gamestate change?

MSmits: yes

MSmits: but not near endgames

MSmits: so your nn learns endgames first

struct: I see I go backwards

MSmits: and then progressively becomes better at earlier games

jacek: at first i was using 4-ply minimax search as targets for bt nn, before switch to mcts thingy

MSmits: yes that works too, or one of those gargantuan meta mcts databases of mine

struct: So for example if the game ends in 6 plys as win

struct: the eval shouldnt be 1 should it?

MSmits: if it's a guaranteed win that would be fine

jacek: yes. (if you used tanh)

MSmits: if it's not guaranteed and it still outputs 1, it will eventually learn not to do so

Default avatar.png putibuzu: you can also use the game result as target, i.e. label all states with +1,-1,0. this is how alphazero does it

MSmits: you'd be assuming your NN already plays perfectly

MSmits: but i guess it can converge

Default avatar.png putibuzu: then with many learning games the NN will learn the avg of a position (given proper sampling)

MSmits: jacek did you ever try comparing this with your way?

MSmits: I think the problem may be that azero also has policy. It may not work without policy

jacek: using endgame results it was worse, but noy by far

MSmits: ah ok

Default avatar.png putibuzu: true, the policy helps a lot ultimately

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I guess more immediate feedback would lead to better results, but I don't know anythin about this

MSmits: well it's always the problem with these games, knowing the end result doesnt tell you when the mistake was made

jacek: the target thingy seems counterintuitive. you converge at first into random NN predictions

jacek: but overtime the real values from the game dominate

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol imagine losing a chess game and your mentor tells you "somewhere in this game you made a mistake. good luck next time"

MSmits: heh yes

Default avatar.png putibuzu: here they compared the methods: https://medium.com/oracledevs/lessons-from-alphazero-part-4-improving-the-training-target-6efba2e71628 they concluded that starting out with the game result and then transition to the avg value the longer the training goes learns best

Default avatar.png putibuzu: *learns fastest

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I guess you don't get that stage where you're converging into random NN predictions, as jacek said

MSmits: jacek I can see a potential for more hyperparameters for you

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

Default avatar.png putibuzu: :D

struct: I need policy?

MSmits: stuct no

struct: good

MSmits: dont make it more difficult than you need to, value works fine

struct: I have no idea how I could code a policy for BT

MSmits: you follow azero methodology

MSmits: marchete shared

jacek: there are about 170 possible moves in bt :?

MSmits: but i wouldnt do it if it is your first or even one of your first 10 NN's

Default avatar.png putibuzu: what is BT? :D

MSmits: breakthroug

struct: breakthrough

MSmits: +h

struct: only 170 jacek?

MSmits: i was faster because i left off the h

Default avatar.png putibuzu: ah alright thanks!

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: game can last 209 moves is what I read

MSmits: if you suck

struct: thats different

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yeah, but I think there's a link between the numbers

struct: ok 168 moves

struct: max

struct: but can be changed to -24

struct: so 144

isimkullanmiyorum: hi , everyone from türkiye ,ecole 42

MSmits: how so many?

MSmits: you have like 16 pawns

jacek: -24?

MSmits: *3

MSmits: or am i missing something

jacek: MSmits all possible moves across all games

struct: you dont need to have moves on 7th row

MSmits: ohh ok

struct: if you are on 7th row and can move you won

struct: so 24*6

MSmits: makes sense

MSmits: when people say how many moves, i am thinking about the maximum branching factor

MSmits: which is a totally different think

MSmits: thing

struct: max moves should be 48

jacek: " (With a player point-of-view representation, there are a total of 154 possible moves, according to start square and destination square plus a no-move position if the game is over.)"

MSmits: yeah

struct: not sure if its possible

jacek: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321991759_Machine_Learning_in_the_Game_of_Breakthrough

struct: let me do the math again

jacek: im not sure what they mean with no-move

struct: maybe the 24 is a number I have for other thing

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: a move that signifies the game is over?

MSmits: the edges can only do 2 moves

struct: 22

MSmits: so it's 22 * 6

struct: yeah

struct: 22*7 = 154 so it matches jacek number

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: 7 for the back rank

struct: useless to have imo

MSmits: it's stupid to include the last row, like you said

MSmits: dont make your nn more complicated than it needs to be

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wait no, it only takes 6 moves to go from back rank to 7th

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and if you're on 7th, any move is good

MSmits: thats what we are saying

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so you could get away with 5*22

MSmits: no, i dont think so

struct: nope

MSmits: 1,2,3,4,5,6 all need moves, 7 does not

struct: you can make moves from 6th row and still lose

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: aah, I misunderstood

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I though you meant you didn't want to use your own back rank for some reason

struct: ah no

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yeah, I see now

MSmits: i guess these guys from the paper want to teach their nn that if it moves from rank 7 it should output 1

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: that's unnecessary no?

MSmits: it is

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: just wrap something around nn

jacek: we will never know, the paper is paid :(

MSmits: but i guess if you want a sort of general board game NN and you want to use as little of the rules as possible, you would include rank 7

MSmits: Aldoggen you should read up on muzero

MSmits: it doesn't even learn the game rules

MSmits: it has an internal simulation that doesnt match the game

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol XD

MSmits: you just give it the allowed actions and the results of its moves and it learns some kind of internal model of the game

MSmits: but this model can include all sorts of illegal actions in intermediate steps as long as it doesnt actually play an illegal action

jacek: good bot without game rules? thats impossible

MSmits: it's not the same as your green circle bot though, muzero has a search tree of some sort

MSmits: a search tree without a correct sim

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: sounds crazy :)

jacek: its model-based, though model is learned

MSmits: yeah, but it's not a 100% correct model, because the goal is not for it to be correct, but for it to lead to winning the game

jacek: in model-free you can learn only 'instinct'. in model-full you can actually plan

j4at: I will give breakthrough a try. recurse top 1 like always! What type of magic is he using :neutral_face:

eulerscheZahl: neural network

MSmits: he's not top 1 everywhere

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: is planning necessary? if your instinct is good enough, you wouldn't need planning

eulerscheZahl: he's not first at coders of the realm 1v1 :)

MSmits: a 100% perfect nn is impossible, but with a search tree it can get much better

jacek: nor in :notebook: :soccer:

MSmits: that's what planning does

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: all right :)

jacek: you can have crappy model but the search will mitigate the crappiness

struct: for csb its easy

struct: avx sim

struct: create NN

struct: rank 1

MSmits: think of muzero like playing a soccer match. When you play soccer as a human you sort of have a model of the field and the movements of the ball, but it's not 100% correct even for the best players

MSmits: muzero accepts this fact and makes the best of its internal model

MSmits: azero cant do this

jacek: j4at i was thinking to put the gpu to use

MSmits: you should really use tensorflow then...

jacek: but tensorflow prediction is so slow

MSmits: it's only slow if you do a single 1

MSmits: if you do a bunch at the same time it parallelizes nicely i think

jacek: i would need to use very large batch

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wow it's really made for parallellization then

jacek: i mean i have simulation in c++, id need to somehow send stuff to python to calcuate and get the results back

MSmits: yeah it is. you are not supposed to train NN's on a single thread

MSmits: jacek, can't you gather a ton of data all at once and then train it?

jacek: im talking about forward only for neuroevolution. i have many tiny NNs

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'm doing that in onboarding. training on a single thread :p

MSmits: mmh ok

MSmits: Aldoggen yeah it works fine for small projects

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: my first little NN

MSmits: sounds like a xor NN

struct: there is one NN on onboarding

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: now there's more than one

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's just max, not xor

MSmits: yeah but i mean just as simple

MSmits: make sure you use 4 hidden layers on it or something :P

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's way simpler than that

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: 2 inputs, one output

MSmits: no hidden?

j4at: lmao

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: no hidden

MSmits: sad :(

MSmits: i like hidden

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it works most of the time, but it has a really small sample size to train on so

j4at: with no hidden layers it can't even calculate xor

MSmits: no this is not xor

MSmits: he is doing max

j4at: he is trying to predict the max of 2 numbers ?

MSmits: yes

struct: pretty much

MSmits: well no

MSmits: he's predicting which is largest

j4at: same shit

jacek: oO

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: exactly

struct: I think this NN can be trained by hand

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

j4at: you can't do anything with no hidden layers

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I set the weights by hand first

MSmits: j4at you can in this case

MSmits: he can just have all his weights set to 1

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: j4at this was just a test. i also knew what kind of NN was sufficient and used that

j4at: oh, im dumb i though he meant return the max value

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: one to 1 and one to -1 does the trick perfectly

j4at: not the index

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yeah, it just returns something that gets mapped to a boolean

MSmits: i actually do this training by hand in one of my classes struct

Default avatar.png YBen1998: yo

Default avatar.png YBen1998: same i have to do drills in class lol

Default avatar.png YBen1998: firs ttime doing this

MSmits: i use the tensorflow playground by google and turn off everything except the x1, x2 input and then they have to set the weights manually

MSmits: so that they get classified correctly

struct: o.o

MSmits: it's really easy

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: okay I wanna do that now

struct: next class add 8 layers

jacek: https://playground.tensorflow.org/ ?

j4at: Well, here they teach teach to train alphago by hand and get better accruacy

j4at: teach us*

MSmits: yes jacek

MSmits: j4at sounds fun

j4at: :upside_down:

Default avatar.png Rbinnetje: hello, I'm totally new to coding. Are there modes on this website where I can learn from scratch?

MSmits: https://imgur.com/a/9Hr0y3f

MSmits: this is what it looks like after turning everything off

MSmits: you can set the 2 weights

5DN1L: Rbinnetje other than self-learning mode, not really

MSmits: here i solved it: https://imgur.com/a/qA3Xn8g

jacek: MSmits now do the spiral one

MSmits: Heh heh, not by hand jacek :)

MSmits: you can do it with 1 hidden layer and all input types on. Or just x1 and x2 and maybe 2 hidden layers and a lot of patience

struct: oh I can change the values by hand

MSmits: yeah

jacek: https://i.imgur.com/FOrI4tm.png

MSmits: yep that's how it's done

MSmits: the nice thing about this site is that you can cut it into pieces, turn off stuff so that your students only see the parts you want

MSmits: I put this in an i-frame

MSmits: in my learning environment

struct: you did this by hand jacek?

MSmits: no lol

struct: impressive :p

struct: im joking ofc

MSmits: :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I was trying to do the upper right one with only x1 and x2 smh

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: then I see there's an input that pretty much looks liket

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: this kind of also teaches you it can be good to preprocess the input

MSmits: make it easier on the NN

MSmits: it's like that for games on CG as well. If you use domain knowledge in addition to training an NN, it will be better

MSmits: though you have to be careful, as your own preconceived notions of a game can handicap a NN as well

MSmits: an example is fixing your NN for CSB (mad pod racing) to have a blocker and a runner. Sure that is the meta and probably correct, but it's not necessarily always the best way.

struct: i wonder if they pass timeout as input or not

struct: the 100 rounds needed to pass a checkpoint

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I saw some videos on the home page of csb. it looked nothing like what the lower leagues do

struct: legend league is different

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: most of the time they stood there, and suddenly one of them went to a checkpoint

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's crazy

struct: it has 2 pods and max thrust is 200

struct: and the replays you saw are from old bots

struct: if you check top players replays its even better

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ah, that might explain something then

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: but it looked as if bots had to wait until a checkpoint was assigned to them or something

MSmits: nah

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: or it's just quirkyness of old bots

MSmits: typical game: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/643216200

MSmits: (7th vs 8th)

struct: oh recurse is timing out

struct: some games

MSmits: how many?

struct: not that many

struct: look this replay Aldoggen

struct: https://www.codingame.com/replay/491776441

struct: rank 1 vs rank 2

struct: the move between frame 30 and 40 is nice

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: first replay looks more like wrestling

struct: on this replay you can see that recurse runner also act as a blocker

MSmits: the game is like wrestling

struct: which i dont think its very common for other bots

MSmits: no it's not

MSmits: so that was exactly my point. If you limit your bot like a runner can only run, then that may work, but it may also make it weaker

jacek: having preprocess inputs has big impact on nn performance. see nnue how it made stockfish much stronger

MSmits: it's hard to say if recurse's bot is best because he allows this or not

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: understood MSmits :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and struct and jacek. I guess I'm the student of today's chat :)

jacek: last lectures on the chat

MSmits: there's always quiet students :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: true :)

MSmits: lurking students

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: the ones that never turn on their webcam

MSmits: those are the worst

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: XD

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: are they paying attention? do they understand what's going on?

jacek: back in my days, there werent any webcams or remote lessons

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: are they even THERE?

jacek: playing cs or minecraft

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: imagine saying: I played cs today in a cs lecture

MSmits: I had students literally waking up in my google meet

MSmits: they got up out of bed with their phone in their hand

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

MSmits: livestreaming their morning ritual almost

MSmits: thankfully no more of that

jacek: yay free onlyfans

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: what happens at home, stays at home

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: shhhh

jacek: oO

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: Oo

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ oO

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: aaah my eyes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: you threw my eyes

BlaiseEbuth: ╰(⇀︿⇀)つ-]═───xO

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: is that a stick in my eye?

BlaiseEbuth: Was a sword. :/

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: well, it hurts

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: sorry can't see

BlaiseEbuth: You're a pirate now.

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I know R now

BlaiseEbuth: :o

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: but R you serious? was that really necessRy?

Default avatar.png SatelliteMaster1337: I know Q

Default avatar.png SatelliteMaster1337: check mate buddy

Default avatar.png SatelliteMaster1337: Q version 69

Default avatar.png SatelliteMaster1337: put that in your pipe and smoke it chief

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/training/medium/cooperative-mate-with-rook

5DN1L: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/adversarial-mate-with-rook

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: cool

Default avatar.png redhand: Hi, is there any way to write/read an other file than the script in Mad Pod Racing? ty

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: do you mean you want to execute a file that's not in the ide?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: you could try this https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/codingame-sync-beta/614

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I don't know in what state it is

Default avatar.png boumagik: HI all Is there a way to make the green / red arrow in the leaderboard persistent ?

Default avatar.png boumagik: it disapears after a few seconds

5DN1L: take a screenshot

Default avatar.png boumagik: no

5DN1L: make a consistently winning/losing bot

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: sad that this isn't in CG

Default avatar.png prof.choi: Hi

Default avatar.png prof.choi: EASY

emh: did you guys know Dall-E mini can generate CSB art for game UI? check:

emh: https://emh.lart.no/publish/csb/dallemini_csb.png

emh: safe for work

Astrobytes: for once :P

Astrobytes: also, nice

j4at: cool

emh: thank you :)

jacek: :neutral_face:

j4at: jacek how many actions are you using for breakthrough

jacek: none

jacek: i have only value

j4at: huh ?

j4at: so action is part of the input ?

j4at: or do you valeu state

jacek: value state

j4at: lame :p

jacek: its eval. like you'd use in minimax or mcts-ept

j4at: yeah I don't want to mix algorithms with nns

jacek: you cant win in board games with nn only

j4at: you are probably correct but I will try my best

j4at: are you using dqn ?

jacek: its more like alpha-zero, except its value only

DomiKo: to train you are using jacek-max too?

jacek: hmm so bowwowforeach uses NN in UTTT? :thinking: https://bowwowforeach.hatenablog.com/entry/2022/07/05/195417

j4at: ow

jacek: for some games

jacek: best-first minimax (overwriting scores) works better, for others mcts (averaging scores) is better

DomiKo: i see

DomiKo: in my understanding mcts should be easier to train, because of averaging

DomiKo: some stuff will get a little bit bigger value and some a little bit less

Default avatar.png JudgeDoom: NECESITO AYUDA, alguien ahi ?

jacek: actually im using combination of both. i have 2 scores in node - minimax and cumulative. and depending on game i use 20% jacekmax and 80% mcts-ept, or other way around

DomiKo: yeah I saw that in marchete code

DomiKo: he leaved a comment for it

jacek: huh

DomiKo: one second

DomiKo: https://github.com/marchete/CGZero/blob/master/src/CGZero.cpp#L1684

5DN1L: JudgeDoom, this is an English-only channel. if you want help, please ask a specific question in English, thanks.

jacek: nice :D

DomiKo: yeah I read the whole thing :D

Astrobytes: JACEK_COEFF :D

jacek: const float JACEK_COEFF = 0.0f;

jacek: no wonder youre losing

Default avatar.png JudgeDoom: i need help me !

5DN1L: not specific enough

DomiKo: I'm not using JACEK_COEFF at all :(

**BlaiseEbuth give a help me to JudgeDoom

Rikus: Do you think that AZ will most likely beat DQN+MCTS in most CG games? (same CG constraints for both)

DomiKo: yes it will

DomiKo: not only in CG games, but in most games

jacek: whats DQN+MCTS ;o

Darleanow: rc95401 ?

DomiKo: first you train DQN, and then use it as eval to MCTS

DomiKo: like they did in CSB

jacek: oh

Rikus: yeap

Rikus: cool, I had double thoughts regarding the difference in the throughput of inferences that DQN vs AZ and maybe it could be _better_ for some games, but unlikely

DomiKo: yeah AZ can learn much much more

Rikus: great, so, I cannot come up with any more excuses for starting this journey besides the challenge itself

DomiKo: it really long journey, but it's so fun

Rikus: thanks for the info and motivation ^_^

MSmits: DomiKo jacek does beat all the azero bots on oware

DomiKo: what about robo?

MSmits: he wasnt azero, maybe he is now i dunno

DomiKo: O.o

DomiKo: so what is robo?

Astrobytes: think it was based around that no?

MSmits: could be

Astrobytes: robozero

DomiKo: wasn't he using policy?

MSmits: i think azero could be better in general but in really simple games it might not be

MSmits: games like oware and othello can be played near perfectly by many types of bots

Rikus: by simple you mean C4/UTT vs CSB/SpringChallenge21?


DomiKo: it could

MSmits: it's just a question of whether they make 0 or 1 or 2 mistakes per game

MSmits: Rikus C4 and UTTT yes

MSmits: CSB/spring challenge 21 no

DomiKo: as I read some papers I think in simple games, when you have near perfect games, still AZ can learn much faster than any type of DQN

MSmits: ahh ok, learn faster sure. But that is irrelevant for simple games

MSmits: the end result is all that matters

DomiKo: it still takes a lot of power to learn such games

MSmits: I guess it depends on the simplicity

MSmits: oware is really really simple though

DomiKo: yeah it is

Rikus: yeap, that's why I've dropped the idea of ZeroEfficient, it learns way faster (and ruleless) than AZ, but I couldn't find a single source that states that it can beat AZ with 'infinite' training

Rikus: *EfficientZero

MSmits: it's hard to test this too. These bots tend to become very deterministic. You'll think you are playing 1000 games but you'll be playing like 3 different ones

struct: just add random like jacek

MSmits: yeah, you have to

DomiKo: I've never heard about EfficientZero

struct: thats usually whats used to describe me

DomiKo: MSmits the problem in comparing is that you can't do it

DomiKo: nobody will give you their implementation, so basically you can't compare anything :(

struct: if cg is up by the time I understand how to make a NN ill share it

DomiKo: good

DomiKo: I'll wait then

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: riiight here waiting for you

struct: I'll be back in a few years

DomiKo: because I can't fix my pipeline :(

Darleanow: could someone help me with code optimisation ?

Darleanow: it's for block the spreading fire

DomiKo: what language?

Darleanow: py

DomiKo: ok lets go

Darleanow: u have discord ?

j4at: cg should add pypy3

MSmits: DomiKo i was more talking about trying the NN's on the leaderboards of CG

DomiKo: ok ok

DomiKo: I see

j4at: although numpy is slower in pypy

MSmits: one could be ranked above the other because it always wins vs the other, but it's the same game every time

MSmits: tweak 1 weight and it's the other way around

MSmits: this is why i like jacek's bots, he adds random to his moves

DomiKo: everybody have to

MSmits: they should but they dont

struct: not every1

DomiKo: but something you model give like 0.99 for one move and a little random won't change anything

MSmits: that's true, but in a game like oware, where you both make 100 choices, some may be different

DomiKo: I tried using your endgame stuff

Astrobytes: and nobody wants their top NN booked by Smits .... :D

struct: you are never safe from MSmit s

Astrobytes: was thinking of one in particular...

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: there are ways to make Ais trip over themselves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5wtoH0_KuA maybe adding random helps against that too?

MSmits: oh how did it go DomiKo

MSmits: it's not easy to implement

DomiKo: I added it for validation.

MSmits: oh that's cool

MSmits: if you do it locally, you can go way higher with time, 15-20 is possible

DomiKo: not really

MSmits: how so?

DomiKo: because there are a lot of different scores for the same position but with different turn limit

jacek: i tested it. one bot had the endgame and the other didnt. if there were like 6-7 seeds, it was winning more. but more seeds like over 10 led to more draws ;d

MSmits: yes thats why i said 15-20

MSmits: if you dont have the turn limit, you can go to 38 like i did :)

MSmits: it's nearly 100 GB but worth it :)

DomiKo: I tried validating positons with 1,2, 10, 20.. turn limit, and my model can solve around 70% of them

DomiKo: by solving I mean do the perfect move just by looking at the policy

MSmits: oh, that's good isnt it?

MSmits: did you include the turn in your input? That might not be good

DomiKo: I don't know that the problem :joy:

MSmits: robo never did this

MSmits: robo assumes infinite game length

jacek: neither do i

DomiKo: yeah i did

MSmits: if you assume infinite, it's much easier to generate a large endgame book

MSmits: 1 result per gamestate

struct: The secret is to add the turn as input 3 times

MSmits: huh?

DomiKo: or more than 1

struct: im joking MSmits

MSmits: oh, i can never tell struct :P

DomiKo: it's not a joke

DomiKo: it's reality

struct: Apparently im not MSmits

MSmits: see, even you can't tell struct

jacek: is this hexapawnzero reference?

struct: yes jacek

MSmits: After all these years of uttt, i think i just made my bot 5% better!

struct: o.o

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: that's 5% better than nothing!

MSmits: made it solve a bit faster and changed my implementation of the free move penalty

struct: 5% is a lot

MSmits: yeah

jacek: 5% better winrate?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: 5% more toast

MSmits: https://imgur.com/a/wHqf4eG

MSmits: wr vs best bot

MSmits: 1000 games per dot

jacek: or it overfitted against that bot

MSmits: this is not really a parameter that can overfit i think

MSmits: it's about discouraging giving away free moves

MSmits: 0 means no discouragement

struct: so it prevents giving a free move to opponent?

struct: like a penalty if you give

MSmits: yeah, if it's 0 it doesnt

MSmits: right

jacek: i had that when i used simple mcts

MSmits: i had this before, but this one is implemented differently

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and you're certain there's no zugzwang-mechanic in tttu?

MSmits: yeah everyone has that i think, at the top

MSmits: hmm

struct: not me

struct: but im not at the top

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

jacek: thats why

MSmits: there's no zugzwang i think

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: we'll see how it performs I guess

struct: are you sure?

struct: what about zugzwang with moves that wont make you lose?

MSmits: doubt you'll notice, i am below 4 nn's and a bunch of players that are nearly the same strength. 5% isnt enough to over come bad luck i think

jacek: well theres plenty of zugzwang if you forced in mini-board to play move beneficial for opponent

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: that's the definition of zugzwang I guess

MSmits: yeah but as it relates to giving away a free move, you basically do the opposite of zugzwang

MSmits: if moving anywhere you want is bad, then you've lost the game

MSmits: so giving away a free move is objectively bad, you only do it when it gives you something really good, like an important board win

MSmits: or you prevent an opponent board win

MSmits: penalizing this, makes the search converge faster

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: should be fine :)

MSmits: oh and i also put in pessimistic optimistic bounds

MSmits: i had something similar, but i put in the real algorithm

MSmits: this is where you dont just keep track of the solved result, but also the minimum expected and maximum expected game result. Kind of like ab-pruning

MSmits: i solve a little bit faster, so the 5% is a combination of that and the free move param

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: what do those expected game results tell you?

MSmits: if it is [-1,0] for example, then you can have at best a draw and at worst a loss

MSmits: or if it is [0,1] then it's at worst a draw

MSmits: so it's like a partially solved state

MSmits: if a child has [0,1] then its parent as at most 0

MSmits: has at

Default avatar.png Cultist: hi guys

Darleanow: someone else to help me with code optimisation ?

MSmits: this way, if you encounter a bunch of draws in your tree, you wont have so solve every state

Default avatar.png Cultist: i'm stucked with mad pod racing

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so that helps you to prune some stuff?

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: like ab pruning in a minimax

Default avatar.png Cultist: I didn't get what I have to do

Darleanow: just pm me if u do :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'll go read up on it :)

MSmits: https://www.lamsade.dauphine.fr/~cazenave/papers/mcsolver.pdf

Astrobytes: aka "the paper with the most hated pseudocode on CG"

MSmits: no not that one

MSmits: this has the score boundds

Astrobytes: oh gotcha

MSmits: it's not the original mcts solver paper

MSmits: it references it though :)

Astrobytes: yeah I remember this one too

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

MSmits: tbh i dont really get the pseudo code here either. I used the pictures :0

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: XD

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: is that a paper you've bookmarked? or how did you find it?

jacek: he paid for it

MSmits: i googled it just now

MSmits: i know the title

jacek: Cultist is this the first wood league?

Astrobytes: pseudocode in this one is far better than solver paper

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: no weird recursion

MSmits: also, the original paper doesnt even allow draws

MSmits: this one allows any kind of score

Astrobytes: True.

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it looks like standard latex. I have fond memories of that

struct: Did you ever try monte carlo graph search MSmits?

jacek: tree is a graph, so yes [solved]

MSmits: what do you mean struct

struct: its similar to mcts but it handles transpositions

MSmits: Aldoggen the original mcts solver paper is still good for the idea of having a solver in mcts. Starting straight with the score bounds might be a bit hard

Astrobytes: ^

Astrobytes: its very clearly explained

jacek: with pseudocode

MSmits: lol, skip the damn pseudo code :P

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: XD

jacek: https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/documents/uctloa.pdf

MSmits: yup

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ty

struct: this is what im talking about MSmits

struct: https://www.ml.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/papers/czech2021icaps_mcgs.pdf

MSmits: can you give the general idea?

MSmits: wait, thats machine learning lol

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: similar states get merged?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and I like the papers, they're to the point, but clear

MSmits: oh mcts and transpositions

MSmits: that's a rabbit hole

MSmits: I've done more than one version of that

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: is the idea that you're computing a state and going "wait a minute! I've seen that before!", after which you skip it?

MSmits: you can do that in minimax

MSmits: it becomes problematic in mcts

MSmits: because you gather statistics on visits and score

MSmits: you get a new child, that's not new

MSmits: so you have 1 child that has 0 vists and another with 100k

struct: maybe ill test minimax on bt

struct: Im gonna check how many repeated positions I get

struct: I bet its a lot

MSmits: in bt a lot yes

struct: If I take into account mirrored

MSmits: in uttt, pretty rare

MSmits: it's not really about the mirror struct

MSmits: it's about doing moves in different orders

MSmits: first move A then B, or first move B, then A

MSmits: same end result

MSmits: mirror is rare in the same game, as most states are very assymetric

jacek: yeah, my bt improved when i cached positions with evaled children

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: if you have n moves for which the order doesn't matter, you can save about n! move evaluations or something

MSmits: yes

struct: o.o

struct: I never really did that

struct: only on green circle I think

jacek: dont you use TT in minimax struct?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: (amount of orders to sort n elements)

struct: never jacek

jacek: not even for move ordering?

MSmits: n! is not necessarily very big if you dont get much depth of course

struct: nope

jacek: oO

MSmits: depth 10 is only 5 of your moves

MSmits: so it's like 5!

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: 120

struct: I dont really have any minmax bot

MSmits: yes, that is if you do a full search

struct: Only lines of actions is minmax

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ah true

MSmits: i do this kind of hashing in yavalath

jacek: woah astro 4th

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: but hey guys, you'll never believe it:

1 = 0!

MSmits: it doesnt help much at the beginning (branching 61), but it helps a ton near the end

struct: is there any term to describe this?

struct: like playing A B == B A

MSmits: they are transpositions

MSmits: which is why you use a TT

struct: so you just handle this by storing the gamestate in the table?

MSmits: you use a hashtable

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: gamestates are big

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: comparing is also hard

MSmits: for yavalath you'd use xorshift(p1) ^xorshift(p2)

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: Improved https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/1d-spreadsheet solution with ES2020 nullish coalescing operator :)

MSmits: not necessarily Aldoggen, simple boardgames it's usually comparing 2 or 3 integers only

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ah true :) but I'm used to storing my game state as classes

struct: I see, thanks

MSmits: https://pastebin.com/EYuh6M7J

MSmits: for my yavalath opening book

MSmits: it's not very performant because it's unordered set, but it's simple

MSmits: I have a more performant implementation for the actual TT

MSmits: my TT is lossy, so i overwrite old states sometimes. Unordered set doesnt allow this

MSmits: and i dont want my book to be lossy :)

Westicles: oh my, look at the forum

MSmits: link it

struct: thanks MSmits

MSmits: np

Westicles: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/this-is-why-i-cant-learn-to-code/19298/14

MSmits: the other implementation isnt secret either, but i dont want to spam it here and didnt feel like digging it up. If you need it let me know

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: oh wow Westicles. I'll get some pop corn later. first this paper

struct: sure

MSmits: sigh, these people just don't understand there simply is a bar of entry that CG is not obligated to help you pass

MSmits: you need to do that elsewhere first

struct: yeah I dont think CG goal is to teach you the basics

struct: there are plenty of sites that do that

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: there is too much stuff that we even don't remember we know

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: like it's just assumed

struct: if I take into account mirrored from the start position at depth 4

struct: 87% of repeated positions

struct: o.o

struct: 232847 repeated 267675 total

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol that's a bunch

MSmits: yep

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: for chess that wouldn't fly

MSmits: no, chess is different

MSmits: people still use TT though, it's especially important late game

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: https://imgur.com/a/j6NuL3t

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: nice

MSmits: however it is totally possible to halve your simcount if you implement TT struct. It's often not worth it. Not many bots i have use TT

MSmits: and for mcts TT is much weaker than for minimax

struct: yeah I wont use TT for mcts

struct: for minimax and bt I think it should be worth

struct: to use TT

MSmits: whats that last term in the formula Aldoggen

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I'd guess progressive bias?

MSmits: yes struct, TT is almost standard with minimax

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: haven't read the paragraph fully

MSmits: could be something like that yeah

MSmits: hey, how much do you know about mcts Aldoggen? Seems you know at least some?

jacek: progressive bias... that brings some memories

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I know some stuff by absorption

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I know MC is basically choosing things at random

MSmits: yeah, but you can make MC smarter than just random

MSmits: by heuristics

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: so I had a reasonable guess for what mcts was once I knew what the abbreviations stood for

MSmits: but do you know the phases of mcts and what they do?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I've just read the overview of it :)

struct: I dont think my mcts has any randomness to it

MSmits: ahh ok. If you want to try it, it's best to do it on a game where random rollouts till end of game works well

MSmits: this is true for UTTT and C4

jacek: then is it really mcts?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: c4?

struct: dont think so jacek

struct: connect 4

MSmits: connect 4

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: aah

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: mm I might try that actually

MSmits: just take into account C4 has a small leaderboard and UTTT has a very large leaderboard

MSmits: if you want to feel a sense of accomplishment, UTTT is better

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

MSmits: C4 is full of pro's

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and the highest league is wood 1

MSmits: that too

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: and you're nr 1 nice

MSmits: i have an opening book which is what makes me stick out

MSmits: my bot is as good as struct's and darkhorse's

MSmits: without the book

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I sense you're trying to steer me towards uttt. are you afraid I might pass you? ;)

MSmits: no no, please go ahead and do C4 :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: was only joking :)

MSmits: I know, important thing is to have fun

struct: connect 4 sim should be easier

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yup

_Royale: MSmits: I don't know if someone mentionned it, for MCTS transpositions you can attach the visits to the edges instead of the nodes

MSmits: mcts can be a bit frustrating the first time. You need a frame work that is bug free. Finding bugs in your framework is not easy

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: but do you need a sim for mcts?

struct: yes Aldoggen

MSmits: _Royale are edges separate objects then?

struct: Aldoggen I would try to mcts TTT first, the normal version

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: how so?

struct: its easier to denug

MSmits: Aldoggen you'll need a sim for minimax and mcts both, but mcts has a bit more to code around that, not a lot, but a bit

_Royale: MSmits: yes, you transpose the nodes, and each node as its own edges to children

MSmits: ahh ok

_Royale: MSmits: and the visits of a node is the sum of the visits of its edges

MSmits: that solves 1 problem

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: oh, do you need a sim to make sure you're doing valid moves?

MSmits: but it comes with a performance penalty right?

struct: Aldoggen your sim should only give legal moves, but is more to check the current state of the game

MSmits: Aldoggen yes, all nodes of the tree correspond to new gamestates

_Royale: MSmits: yes, but I use it on most board games because the performance penalty become negligible with NN cost

MSmits: ahh yes i can see that

MSmits: a lot of fancy stuff becomes doable because performance is no longer an issue

MSmits: like weird ucb formulas

_Royale: it helps to reuse the solved nodes too

MSmits: yeah. The way I do it is i store the index to the first child and the number of children in a TT so two parents can have the same set of children, but this does give me the problem of weird visitcounts

_Royale: yes it's one "good" this with this NN cost, you can spend less time optimizing your simulator :)

MSmits: that too yeah

_Royale: MSmits: for a long time I had transpositions with that visits bug, as you said earlier hard to debug everything

MSmits: well it's not really a bug, it's a choice. You have to accept weird visit counts and maybe a biased search, or have a far greater performance penalty and use the unbiased method you describe

MSmits: for a normal mcts using millions of nodes i dont think having edge objects can work, but i can totally see it for NN's

_Royale: maybe for games with lots of transpositions?

MSmits: yeah, i would have to test it, it might not be as bad as i just said

MSmits: i mean you take the visits and wins off the original nodes, so they become smaller at least

MSmits: you have nodes, leading to edges, leading to nodes again

_Royale: yes

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: you'd have to identify edges with each other as well

Darleanow: Hey _Royale , i've pm'd you :)

MSmits: the edges will come in sets

_Royale: edges can contain probabilities too if you have a policy network

jacek: :scream:

MSmits: so whats on the nodes _Royale?

MSmits: solved result i guess

MSmits: but also moves?

jacek: i just use transpositions as nncache

_Royale: moves are in the edges too here

MSmits: that should be very effective also jacek

DomiKo: custom hashmaps jacek?

MSmits: yeah that makes sense _Royale, i just wonder what is left on the nodes

jacek: just unordered_map

_Royale: nodes contain the state, its value and wether its solved or not

MSmits: hmm how do you get the value?

MSmits: if the visits and score are on the edges?

MSmits: you just update it every time the edges get updated?

_Royale: MSmits: you mean the backpropagation? yes it updates the edges and nodes

MSmits: also, i dont always store the state on the node. Sometimes it's just the move. I guess it is mandatory in this case

MSmits: makes sense, thanks for sharing _Royale

Darleanow: anybody had idea to optimize/do something better than bfs algo?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: bread first search mmm

MSmits: I find it hard to even imagine using bfs with that forest fire optim

MSmits: i mean i can imagine spreading the fire that way, but i wouldnt know how to pick squares to block with

Westicles: can you anneal it? haven't read it

MSmits: i suggested SA to Darleanow, so i hope so :P

MSmits: you can have an initial solution and then make small alterations

MSmits: i guess it can work

MSmits: he seems to have an initial solution so...

Westicles: It works for everything if you have the cores

MSmits: what are cores in this contest?

MSmits: context

Westicles: offline cpu

MSmits: ohh ok

MSmits: i thought you were throwing fancy SA lingo at me

_Royale: MSmits: no problem, if I remember correctly martinpapa69 does the same for MCTS transpositions

MSmits: also with NN

MSmits: good to know

Darleanow: i've looked a bti for anneal

_Royale: jacek: I think Robostac does that too? (nncache)

Darleanow: i'm just looking for more suggestions :)

Astrobytes: it's a graph theory problem, the firefighter problem, search it up

MSmits: Darleanow I am going to make some assumptions here, so i might be way off

MSmits: you build up some border around the fire right?

MSmits: it extends just far enough to beat it?

Astrobytes: That's an approach I would try yes

jacek: _Royale its easiest to implement, it just saves NN computations

MSmits: i imagine small alterations to this border

Darleanow: indeed

MSmits: and then simulation to see if its better

Darleanow: i'm computing all possible areas in 5 secs max

Darleanow: and chose the best based on it's score

MSmits: but you might have to do several smaller borders

Astrobytes: yes MSmits

Astrobytes: you might be better off sacrificing a larger area somewhere and saving a few more valuable area

Astrobytes: s

MSmits: yeah

Darleanow: its a randint from 1 to width+height/2

Astrobytes: very topcoder-ish optim this one

MSmits: so you'll have to define a solution in such a way that your SA algorithm can randomly come up with new ones

Darleanow: tried with width+height

jacek: ah well just wait for the solutions to be revealed :v

DomiKo: :upside_down:

MSmits: yeah i dont get that, it's an optim arena and everyone can see the code

MSmits: it's so weird

Astrobytes: no it won't be shared

MSmits: it says that it will

Astrobytes: confirmed by T

Astrobytes: check the date

MSmits: oh ok, good

Westicles: I gotta fix my PC and give it a try

youngG: can somebody recommend me a good laptop

youngG: to program

Astrobytes: one that works and has a keyboard. Possibly a screen too.

youngG: lol

struct: maybe not a chromebook

struct: or w/e its called

DomiKo: strong chromebooks are cool

MSmits: ugh

youngG: definitely not a chromebook

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: maybe a touchpad if you're fancy

MSmits: chromebooks are my nemesis

Darleanow: yeah but like i want to get a good top :)

youngG: damn

Westicles: laptops die too easily

MSmits: I teach 1 class that uses chromebooks instead of windows PC's

DomiKo: I'm using chromebook at work ;(

struct: lol DomiKo

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: youngG most of the responses here were sarcastic

MSmits: we were working on game design and all i could use for it was flowlabs, which is a poor substitute for everything else

DomiKo: pls no hate

MSmits: this: https://flowlab.io/

MSmits: it's at best... ok

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol in the browser

MSmits: yes

MSmits: Gdevelop is much better

MSmits: https://gdevelop.io/

MSmits: but comes with install... so no chromebook

Sheeesh---: the website design is soo cool!

MSmits: which one?

Sheeesh---: gdevelop

MSmits: ah yes i think so too

MSmits: I might be using it next year with my other clases

MSmits: when i can use my own classroom that has windows PCs

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hype

MSmits: whats hype?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yay happy because something good is going to happen

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it's a feeling

MSmits: oh ok yes

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: improved again best solution to https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/1d-spreadsheet with ES2021 :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/250317a5-3b22-4fe0-ace8-64a537734e93

MSmits: paste bin links dont work, can use www.pastebin.com

MSmits: just dont share whole solutions

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: ah oops

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: better ? https://pastebin.com/Jnza3wdR

MSmits: works

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: wanted to build a good example for JS beginners and people who want to learn newer Ecmascript

MSmits: oh

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: (this improves on the best current voted solution)

MSmits: I see

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: This puzzle is a very cool example on where to use that new "??=" operator ;)

MSmits: tbh i dont really know the puzzle

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: it's just about memoization

MSmits: oh, i have 100%

MSmits: i must have done it

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

MSmits: ohhh that one!!

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: JS can memoize in a function by closure, this is an example of how to do it in one instruction

jacek: was it really memoization?

jacek: if you dont remember it

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: lol

MSmits: mine didnt seem like memoization anyway

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: well there's not much else to it ;)

MSmits: I see a bunch of loopy

MSmits: 96 lines of loopy ifs

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: thats a bit too much aint it ;)

MSmits: it worked

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: I like elegant functional code

MSmits: I like code that works just well enough so that I can use it and then never look at it again :P

MSmits: not always an option unfortunately

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: that's self inflicting pain in a real work environment !

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: trust me on that lol

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: https://xkcd.com/1421/ MSmits

MSmits: pfft, real work, who does that

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: ah alright sorry mate

MSmits: funny Aldoggen :)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

MSmits: GuillaumeMathe i am just kidding, i do have some style in my code, but i dont worry about these 1-time puzzles

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: there's thousands of those comics

MSmits: yeah i have seen them before

MSmits: i resubmitted my utt btw, hope it will get at least 8 like before

MSmits: though it should be better than it was even if it doesnt, might need other people to submit, pushing it further

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: As I said I'm trying to bring better ES/JS solutions if that's relevant, to help people who are here to learn :)

MSmits: thats nice GuillaumeMathe

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: thanks

MSmits: some use JS yeag

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: I started here with C#, then switched to c++ performance and later to python for puzzles

MSmits: i like python over C# because less typing

MSmits: (typing as in hitting the keyboard)

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: syntactic sugar and convenience functions and methods ftw

Default avatar.png GuillaumeMathe: yeah that's what I like in more recent ES versions

Westicles: there are only 2 non-WIP puzzles that look worth approving

MSmits: I'm sorry you had to look at all of them to determine this Westicles

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: good thing other people think alike, otherwise we'd be swamped with garbage

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I think I've approved one or two puzzles in 16 days

Westicles: I didn't look at the clashes, those are all probably fine

MSmits: thats one hell of an assumption

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I beg to differ

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: do you remember lisa has ideas?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: artificial emotional intelligence?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wait was that a clash?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: it wasn't

Westicles: that wasn't the best

MSmits: Is that the one you got worked up over Westicles?

Westicles: I was whining about the tennis one more I think

MSmits: there was one about women and bodyweight

Westicles: oh, that one was great. javacoffee

Westicles: though it has a trivial O(1) solution

Westicles: but it set off the white knights riding to protect the ladies

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: body weight is a girl's secret?

MSmits: Did they try to solve it using progressive bias?

Westicles: Just the usual --However does it really need to be gendered in this way? We all know that in the tech industry we struggle to attract diverse people...

MSmits: I know, I read that

MSmits: without trying to start a whole conversation about it and get the mods up in arms, I am a leftie, but some of this identity politics makes me sad also

Girard: :bento:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: could have been about truck drivers weighing their trucks while competition was watching

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: I guess it wasn't necessary after all

MSmits: yeah I agree, you can have lots of themes, but people could stand to be a little less sensitive about some things and focus on real problems I think

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: true

Westicles: Yeah, I got a comment the kiss the girls would be better if it was about rats :rolling_eyes:

MSmits: rofl

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: kiss the rats?

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: lol

Astrobytes: interesting

MSmits: well my submit is done. Got to the same rank basically. So I am convinced I didnt break anything

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: rank 8?

MSmits: it was still going up, so i guess it'd settle at 7 with a few more games

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: hehe :)

MSmits: no, it's at 9, but it's 0.08 below the 7th

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: they're pretty close together then

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: I could rank higher, but it has no opening book

struct: my bot loses too much as p1

struct: it should not happen

MSmits: i might generate a new one, once i am done trying some more stuff

MSmits: struct at your rank it should win 70% as p1

MSmits: where karliso is at, it is around 90%

struct: i have no idea tbh

struct: I never tested my bot locally

MSmits: should be easy to do

MSmits: there's a nice trick to it

struct: yeah just not really interested in it

MSmits: you dont need a sim even

struct: whats the trick?

MSmits: just let your bots output "win" or "loss" as a solved result

struct: ah yes

MSmits: and your "arena" just believes them

struct: I do that

struct: for other games

struct: I just pass last played move

MSmits: yeah

struct: and I only output win not loss

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: wait, this works?

struct: because I need to make sure the other bot finds the win

struct: Aldoggen yes you can even create a referee to handle this for brutaltester

MSmits: Aldoggen no, i think you misunderstand

struct: Yes its not trivial

struct: as it sounded

MSmits: we do this locally on our own computer

MSmits: we let bots fight eachother

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: ah, if your bot thinks he wins, you shortcut to the next game?

MSmits: yes

MSmits: exactly

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: all right :)

struct: he doesnt think

struct: he is sure

MSmits: he proves it

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yes

MSmits: this is how i just fitted that parameter

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: what is the advantage, except speed gain?

MSmits: you dont need to code a whole sim in your arena

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: struct spoke about not winning enough as p1

MSmits: oh that migth not even be true, he needs to test that first

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: or is that about something else

MSmits: thats just how his bot performs

MSmits: he has a pretty strong uttt bot he thinks should be winning more as p1

MSmits: p1 has a major advantage in uttt

MSmits: probably if we could solve the game, it would be won by p1

YurkovAS: great win rate vs me and tomatoes :thumbsup:

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: all right

MSmits: might just be luck YurkovAS, this version has 5% over my old one

MSmits: no opening book

MSmits: vingte uses one btw

MSmits: he's the only high ranked uttt with one atm afaik

MSmits: btw thanks again YurkovAS for helping me set up that brutaltester for the last contest. I would not have been in legend without i think

MSmits: the last effective thing i did was fitting params for my brute force bot

YurkovAS: you are welcome!

MSmits: I should get some sleep. GN

struct: gn

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: good night!

YurkovAS: gn

Astrobytes: gn

Default avatar.png BleedPurp: hi

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: okay, I think I found the O(1) solution to body weight is a girl's secret

Default avatar.png Aldoggen: yay

Westicles: :tada:

Default avatar.png eoigbwfkdop2ijenwfopii2jfackk2ef: SMELL MY FEET

NewCoder09: hey guyss

NewCoder09: dang i went down alot of ranks

NewCoder09: a lot*

struct: hi

Default avatar.png eoigbwfkdop2ijenwfopii2jfackk2ef: who wants to be halal

Default avatar.png eoigbwfkdop2ijenwfopii2jfackk2ef: ?


Default avatar.png eoigbwfkdop2ijenwfopii2jfackk2ef: ?

Default avatar.png eoigbwfkdop2ijenwfopii2jfackk2ef: ?

Default avatar.png vvinter: hello! can someone help with the question about the code Royale game??

Darleanow: y

Default avatar.png vvinter: im not getting it...

Darleanow: send me the link :)

Default avatar.png nic._.somthing01: wuddup dawg

PatrickMcGinnisII: chat DOA now?

PatrickMcGinnisII: Looks DOA

Ayza: vvinter, late answer but, what exactly are you not getting?

Ayza: the goal, strategy, or something else?

Darleanow: i've explained to him to goal

Darleanow: and some of the strategy

Darleanow: AYza

Inferno_dragon: oO

Inferno_dragon: you play that game? Darleanow

Darleanow: i wanted to start building a bot for it

Darleanow: but i'm focused on block the spreading fire atm

Darleanow: i'll prob start in around 7-8 hours