Chat:World/2021-07-15

bini0823: hello~ I am korean

Lyapunov_kills_me: Does anyone have any idea about Mars Lander-Episode2?

Lyapunov_kills_me: I find my logic too messy

kakaru: HELLO

MiyamuraIzumi: Mars Lander 2 is quite simple: just control the speed and angle in range

MiyamuraIzumi: and then => all

kakaru: 비니님 저두 한국

seAlKnoT: mero lado

jumps-are-op: https://www.codingame.com/replay/570242190 how this is even possible

LachlanB: I just did a technical interview, and I think it was an impossible question with the language I selected. How can I find out more about the solution?

Q12: What is the question? Is it one of the puzzles here?

derjack: good morning

Hilekat: good moning

LachlanB: It was a question to find lucky numbers. A lucky number is a number that has the digit 6 xor 8. I had to find how many lucky numbers there are between 1 and a 52 bit int, and I had to execute it in less than 6 seconds, I couldnt get that fast and I dont think it is possible with python

Hilekat: hi guys, i really would like to become a python developer, i learned all about theory, but in game i'm not good, how can i improve myself where i can learn to improve myself, can you give me some advice please

Q12: Solve puzzles in python @Hilekat

Q12: And @LachlanB This is possible with python. You should find a different algorithm to solve it.

bini0823: Does anyone knows that how to estimate rank on "CLASH OF CODE" ??

BugKiller_328: It depends on game mode.

bini0823: What means?

bini0823: Ah

bini0823: I understand

bini0823: But I mean not each game but total rank!

BugKiller_328: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/e4bb8de3-29fa-46be-b163-6fbf93c7900d

BugKiller_328: Go to your profile page, and click question mark which is in top right corder of the ranking box...

BugKiller_328: make sense ?

BlaiseEbuth: Oo

derjack: o.

BlaiseEbuth: .

Astrobytes: o.o

derjack: any breakthrough in bt?

Astrobytes: me?

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ o˙o

derjack: you recently submited didnt you

darkhorse64: -.-

Astrobytes: Yeah, once or twice :P

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ -˙-

Marchete: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Marchete: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━━┻

Marchete: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━━━━━┻

Astrobytes: Need to tweak eval a bit I think

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°Д°)╯︵/(.□ . \)

BlaiseEbuth: ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)

Astrobytes: generally sits between 28th and 21st at the moment

darkhorse64: Stop throwing furniture at us. I feel like in a Tex Avery cartoon

Astrobytes: :D

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°）╯︵ ᔭ9ǝsɹoɥʞɹɐp

Astrobytes: Anvils dropping from the sky, dynamite exploding everywhere

darkhorse64: kitchen sink

chengwy: ??

BlaiseEbuth: Now Tex Avery make me think about The Haunting... #NoMoreChildhood

derjack: hm?

BlaiseEbuth: A parallel with Road Runner used as weft for an awful death discovery scene... :ghost:

derjack: in here they translate road runner into Ostrich ~

BlaiseEbuth: Another kind of trauma...

BlaiseEbuth: In France it's 'Bip Bip'

Astrobytes: Weird, since roadrunners are a type of cuckoo :thinking:

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah... But the cartoon doen't really look like the original bird.

Astrobytes: What. Next you'll be telling me Daffy Duck looks nothing like a real duck

Astrobytes: :P

Ninjapig28: join clash or u scared<??

Astrobytes: No.

Astrobytes: Oof. Bit harsh Blaise.

derjack: :scream:

BlaiseEbuth: Reflex.

BlaiseEbuth: I don't like such provocation

Astrobytes: We noticed.

BlaiseEbuth: Well... He's probably more happy where he is now...

furtim: hi

BlaiseEbuth: o/

chengwy: he

BlaiseEbuth: \o

Dannnnn: h

BlaiseEbuth: \o/

chengwy: OO

dbdr: what's wrong Marchete?

BlaiseEbuth: The table, apparently...

Noah321: griez si

Noah321: help me

Noah321: with power of thor episode 1

Noah321: thx guys

BlaiseEbuth: :thinking:

Astrobytes: "What's that Skippy? Noah's fallen down the well?"

BlaiseEbuth: You're welcome

dbdr: ^

Astrobytes: http://how-to-properly-ask-a-question.surge.sh/

Noah321: :disappointed:

derjack: oO

BlaiseEbuth: There's no kangaroo emoji...

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Noah321: but

Noah321: i like turtles

Noah321: :turtle:

BlaiseEbuth: That guy is a good one

BlaiseEbuth: Give him cookies

BlaiseEbuth: :cookies:

BlaiseEbuth: !cookie:

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Astrobytes: :cookie:

Noah321: :)

Noah321: yess

Noah321: thank you

Jannick: :cookie:

Astrobytes: Anyway. Regarding Thor, we don't know what part of Thor you need help with so we can't currently help you.

dbdr: the part about solving it

Astrobytes: :D

Noah321: no problem guys

BlaiseEbuth: Astrobytes! You already crunched that cookie! That's not very covid. :rage:

Astrobytes: It was already like that when I found it!

Noah321: :joy:

Noah321: but it taste so good

Noah321: :yum:

BlaiseEbuth: Noah321 you have to update thor's position yourself each turn.

Noah321: okayy

derjack: :unamused:

Astrobytes: Something wrong?

derjack: nah, just made you look into leaderboards, didnt i

Astrobytes: Nope

TobiasA: how can i solve the "difficult, longer with cycles" testcase in labyrinth

derjack: donate faster cpu to CG

TobiasA: it still won't work

KiwiTae: you need to do path finding

KiwiTae: and bfs they say

TobiasA: yup i did the path finding and bfs and it works for all the testcases except the last one and i don

TobiasA: t know why

KiwiTae: it fails where?

KiwiTae: can't get to the control room? or go back to origin

KiwiTae: maybe improve the exploration

Noah321: GUYSSS

Noah321: I neeed ya help

TobiasA: it doesn't get back to the start on time

KiwiTae: means you don't have the shortest path

KiwiTae: fix it :p

Noah321: please send a link with the code for Power of Thor

Noah321: Episode 1

Noah321: C*++

darkhorse64: no way

KiwiTae: https://pastebin.com/rbkHf2yi ^

KiwiTae: he left ah

KiwiTae: Noah321

KiwiTae: ah no

KiwiTae: here u go

KiwiTae: default code right there :wink: you are welcome

Astrobytes: Noah321: here is the Thor Code -.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / ... ..- .--. .--. --- ... . -.. / - --- / ... --- .-.. ...- . / .. - / -... -.-- / -.-- --- ..- .-. ... . .-.. ..-.

Noah321: ThXX GUYSSS

KiwiTae: Astrobytes SAVAGE

KiwiTae: :joy:

Astrobytes: :grin:

nulte: :wave:

Astrobytes: hey nultestruct

The_ZimaBlue: Trying to decode morse :)

The_ZimaBlue: Already have code to do it.

The_ZimaBlue: Trying to find it.

The_ZimaBlue: Wait, what

The_ZimaBlue: is it just me, or does it decode to "encrypted/dectrypted"

The_ZimaBlue: oops

The_ZimaBlue: tiny mistake ^_^

The_ZimaBlue: Forgot to paste code in IDE

The_ZimaBlue: ESSESEISE?

dbdr: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/f62748d3-40ea-417b-8b7c-df182182730a

The_ZimaBlue: https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/71159214dd88db1b04b50e52fffe18179bbf A contribution I made to do that XD

Astrobytes: I considered that dbdr but decided the message might be clearer with my text ;)

dbdr: your message is perfect ;)

The_ZimaBlue: IEISEIESIIEEIEIHSIESES EEEEEISHEISEHESIIHEESEEHISEHEESEIIIIIIIIHSEESES IIIIHHESIIHEIHEIIHHESIIHEIHEIIIIHSSISIIIIIIHSSISIII IH IH III IIIIIEEHIEIEIISHEEIISHEEEHISIEI EIISIIEIEISIEHE EEE EESSES ESIEIEIIHEEEEEESESS SE E?

The_ZimaBlue: Something is rwong XD

Astrobytes: Is your Morse decoder high?

Astrobytes: It appears to have been drinking at least!

The_ZimaBlue: XD probably

The_ZimaBlue: idk

The_ZimaBlue: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/ce2e3020-3a5f-4716-938e-0e2a34027930

The_ZimaBlue: Now it's working better

Astrobytes: Indeed

The_ZimaBlue: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/c1bf49df-54fe-4902-bd40-6539934a9132

The_ZimaBlue: MY python 3 code to do it

The_ZimaBlue: I only have morse alphabet

The_ZimaBlue: not special characters\

The_ZimaBlue: so it doesn't have the "<<" and the ">>" and the ";"

kakaru: java source for bfs, need what?

derjack: huh

eulerscheZahl: is this guy trying to sell a BFS code to us?

derjack: :money_mouth:

BlaiseEbuth: I think he want to trade what we need against a bfs code.

BlaiseEbuth: We need to clearly establish what we need guys.

eulerscheZahl: a contest

eulerscheZahl: with lasers

eulerscheZahl: in the medieval age

BlaiseEbuth: I'll say a contest of contest, and the glorious return of AutomatonNN !

eulerscheZahl: i would try a sneaky ban on automaton if it ever returns

BlaiseEbuth: eulerscheZahl is there a way to ban AutomatonNN is it returns?

BlaiseEbuth: *if

eulerscheZahl: "is it returns" is fine, Automaton doesn't construct correct sentences either

BlaiseEbuth: Right.

derjack: Automaton2000 what do you need

Automaton2000: how do you do that and i don't want to see it

Ninjapig28: w

derjack: Astrobytes why write W or L so early

Astrobytes: don't pay attention to that, it's lying currently

derjack: deceiving bots eh

Astrobytes: No I just failed to update that part

Vollrenz: 😢😢😢

KiwiTae: u sad? ~

BlaiseEbuth: Oh cool. Hold on, I'll grab some popcorn.

Redlin_Kirill: Automaton2000

Automaton2000: just like in the first 10 matches are critical

Wontonimo: it is Automaton2000 , but what about the next 10 matches?

Automaton2000: yea i had to look up a clash just because i don't like how you can get

Marchete: Automaton2000 is right, the first 10 matches are critical

Automaton2000: to check if the opponent is

Wontonimo: "first10 matches" must be a high frequency n-tuple for Autom2000

Wontonimo: people really don't talk much about the second 9 matches

Wontonimo: or third 13 matches

Marchete: I see the first 12 matches, 12 good matches mean high in leaderboard from start

Marchete: 10 + 1 loss is bad too

nulte: hmm

Wontonimo: hm?

martinpapa69: yo Marchete

martinpapa69: have you tried training your NN in a more alpha-zero ish style instead of alpha go-ish style ?

Marchete: ??

Marchete: how

Marchete: minibatches?

Marchete: I have no idea how to do it properly

martinpapa69: i mean the meta-training script

Marchete: what meta training

Marchete: parallel workers?

martinpapa69: I see you basically have more versions of your NN competing eachoter, and you replace the best ones, when you find a new best

AllYourTrees: what were the differences other than always using latest instead of competing latest & best, and some sampling stuff?

Marchete: i have two bests

martinpapa69: yea, two

Marchete: and I selfplay AA AB BB etc

martinpapa69: in alphazero, there is only one NN

martinpapa69: wich you train continously

martinpapa69: you are nit waiting for new best

Marchete: I have "bad" generations

martinpapa69: you train the nn, with its recent outputs

Marchete: sometimes I went like 30% winrate

Marchete: and making selfplay from these

princess_of_zeal: but you still compare it to the previous version and only replace the best if the new one is actually better, right?

Marchete: just went worse

martinpapa69: there are no "versions" in the alpha-zero training

AllYourTrees: did the authors release any ablation study comparing the "always use latest" vs "keep best"?

martinpapa69: only one nn

princess_of_zeal: there are in mine :-)

AllYourTrees: afaik they just switched what they did without any justification lol

Marchete: ah

AllYourTrees: other than it was simpler

martinpapa69: you just generate selfplays, and train the network with them

Marchete: mine it's different

Marchete: I do snapshots

Marchete: and only generate samples from "best"

Marchete: I tried at first generate from "latest"

martinpapa69: ye i see, its very similar to what they do in alpha-go

Marchete: early on my tests

Marchete: if you want to test it

RoboStac: I still think theres a high likelyhood that gets stuck where you can't train enough improvement in a single generation

Marchete: just change the selfplay to always use last generation model

Marchete: ezpz

AllYourTrees: yeah things are different when you don't have millions of computers running stuff for you lol

martinpapa69: i already changed the script, to an alpha zero-like training

Marchete: it worked?

martinpapa69: getting the same result basically

AllYourTrees: "basically"?

Marchete: it's a "simple" change as I said

martinpapa69: but i like it more, because its much more simple

Marchete: used latest instead of best

martinpapa69: AllYourTrees like 0.1-0.2 elo difference

Marchete: 0.2 elo :D

AllYourTrees: :thumbs_up:

Marchete: maybe I can change to smth like 40% best 60% latest

Marchete: or any other percentage

Marchete: but I'm still puzzled with those generations with like 30% winrate....

AllYourTrees: i wonder if its something to do with a change in policy or value causes the games to go in state space where it isn't as good?

AllYourTrees: :shrug:

vanerac: a

Marchete: hmm, maybe it's true about "latest"

Marchete: the thing may be: "if I can't win best, I need samples about why I can't win"

Marchete: so I'd learn from the bad winrate

BIPIN_THE_KING: hello 8th codingamer

Marchete: I was reading an alternative/similar to AZ: https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.08439

Marchete: made in about the same time, but without all that buzz

Marchete: and http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1514096/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Marchete: they seem to use alternative UCT formulas

Marchete: I'm checking them

AllYourTrees: that thinking fast and slow is interesting, thanks for sharing

AllYourTrees: i like the comparison to AGZ at the end

AllYourTrees: AGZ had flashier results than it. ive never heard of hex before, but lots of people have heard of chess and go?

Wontonimo: i like the idea of having a zoo of previous NNs, in the even that some only cover a subset of the critical lessons

Wontonimo: then if the new NN is able to beat all previous NNs in the zoo, then it has either learnt all the previous lessons, or it has a superior lesson.

Marchete: I was using best1+best2+random(from last 5)

Marchete: but maybe it's true to have more samples from latest

Marchete: I like diversity too

Marchete: I think my latest can go very wrong, and only selfplay from it seems risky

dbdr: I do latest vs best1/2/rnd

Marchete: that seems better

dbdr: so adds diversity

Marchete: latest vs latest only is a no no for me

Wontonimo: is rnd a rnd selection of a bot, or rnd play?

dbdr: yeah, calls for model collapse :)

dbdr: rnd gen

dbdr: as in the original script

Wontonimo: yeah, model collapse

dbdr: only gen0 is random :)

Wontonimo: do you ever do vs non-nn mcts?

Wontonimo: (that question is for anyone who does nn's)

AllYourTrees: i do that exclusively

AllYourTrees: err

AllYourTrees: for evaluation

AllYourTrees: not for training

AllYourTrees: i was initially seeding the replay buffer with random rollouts mcts

Marchete: only selfplay learning

Marchete: no external bots or domain knowledge

AllYourTrees: has anyone looked at using UCT instead of PUCT? or know why AGZ uses PUCT?

AllYourTrees: i'd assume you can just multiply the exploration term in UCT by probability of action?

jacek: get rid of policy, use UCT, return to monke

Marchete: I just posted that

Marchete: some alternative function to use UCT

Marchete: http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1514096/FULLTEXT01.pdf

AllYourTrees: ah the thesis has that?

martinpapa69: my idea is the more my AI is similar to the best AI in the world (AZ), the better performance it's able the reach :D the guys at google spent a lot of time developing it, and trying out different ideas

Marchete: page 45

Marchete: +they have 5000TPUs to play with

Marchete: +NN model in AlphaZero is completely different

AllYourTrees: ty marchete!

AllYourTrees: so they just combine the UCT term with the PUCT term?

Marchete: residual layers

Marchete: we don't have that

Marchete: yes, AllYourTrees

Marchete: uct + some policy "bonus"

Marchete: maybe it's worth testing it

dbdr: "Playing the Game of Risk withan AlphaZero Agent" "The zero learning process is basedon the Expert Iteration algorithm, an alternative to the famous AlphaZero algorithm" Title does not match abstract :D

Marchete: another point that can be improved is to also generate samples from pitplay

Marchete: no?

AllYourTrees: i really like this ExIt paper, ty so much for sharing marchete

Marchete: as you use latest

Marchete: :thumbsup:

martinpapa69: I dont do pitplay

Marchete: madness!!!

martinpapa69: train/sample generation/train/sample generation....

Marchete: alphazero does pitplay, isn't it?

AllYourTrees: what is pit play?

martinpapa69: alpha go does, alpha zero doesnt

Marchete: it's good to have different approaches :)

jacek: btw. i dont use pit

Marchete: they do

Marchete: each 1000 minibatches

martinpapa69: but there is nothing to compare. as you have only 1 version of the nn

Marchete: https://medium.com/applied-data-science/alphago-zero-explained-in-one-diagram-365f5abf67e0

Marchete: check "evaluate network"

martinpapa69: ye thats the alpha-go

Marchete: ahh sh*t its alpha go

Marchete: lol

martinpapa69: :D

Marchete: my fault

Marchete: I mixed all

Marchete: nvm I like the "generation" more

Marchete: have you changed something more, martinpapa69?

martinpapa69: not yet

jacek: winrate :v

martinpapa69: I dont like the training sample pool modification part tbh. i'll check if i can train the network with the last N replays without any filtering, or priorization or anything

Marchete: delete all *.dat files, don't use NNSampler

Marchete: then generate samples

Marchete: maybe you want to change the pipeline then

Marchete: make selfplay a daemon

Marchete: and do stuff in parallel

Marchete: the daemon will keep last N samples

martinpapa69: ye, that would be the ideal soulution, but ill start with the simple stuff :D

Marchete: and it can generate minibatches

nulte: so many NNs o.o

dbdr: Marchete, I thought about generating samples from pitplay. one possible issue is that noise is lower

dbdr: so samples will be less diverse

jacek: how many sample you get in pit and from how many from 1 iteration?

dbdr: depends on the settings :) but currently that would be 1/3 from pit

Marchete: true, that's why I never used it

ValidityFail: So has anyone received an offer through CG?

dbdr: I got an offer to play clash of code

nulte: sounds like the dream job

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Astrobytes: Didn't Agad e get a job with Roche?

dbdr: clash of code 8 hours a day? :thinking:

BlaiseEbuth: 8 days a week

Astrobytes: 8 clashes / era

BugKiller_328: :joy:

BlaiseEbuth: I have a trainee for that.

nulte: Usually its the first question in the interview

BlaiseEbuth: What question?

nulte: Do you play CoC?

Astrobytes: Clashes per hour rate I guess

Astrobytes: > 0 is autoreject

BlaiseEbuth: Too fast

nulte: chat is cursed for me

nulte: always crashing :'(

KiwiTae: omg thank you for boosting me woever pushed me gold lool

nulte: yw

BlaiseEbuth: Yell Wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

BlaiseEbuth: ?

KiwiTae: o/ nulte BlaiseEbuth Astrobytes :*

BlaiseEbuth: \o

Astrobytes: Hey KiwiTae :)

KiwiTae: im so hyped finally managed to defish 220° wide angle camera image hehe

Wontonimo: what game KiwiTae did you get pushed into gold on ?

KiwiTae: pirate of the caribbean

KiwiTae: coders

Astrobytes: Programmatically or otherwise KiwiTae?

KiwiTae: Programmatically ~

Astrobytes: Nice

Astrobytes: For work I presume?

KiwiTae: yes~

dbdr: bramching factor: 10^6. curious how they will represent the policy network! :)

Astrobytes: Pirate of the Caribbean Coders eh

KiwiTae: I was at 27.5 pts last night lol now almost 29

Astrobytes: Boosting ftw

KiwiTae: i dont get it some guy played line 50 battles vs my bot

dbdr: spam submit

Astrobytes: They were spam submitting

KiwiTae: oh nice

KiwiTae: hhe

Astrobytes: Which incidentally is how I now test almost every feature so I don't get locked out of IDE matches

Astrobytes: Limit my IDE plays? Fine, I'll take them elsewhere.

KiwiTae: he can chain kill me now

KiwiTae: i m already passed it hehe

nulte: same happens in other games

nulte: i have like 60+ games in a row vs the same player

Wontonimo: it would be a nice feature to see all the battles vs 1 person rolled up into a summary

Astrobytes: me in BT probably :D

dbdr: 4 latter pseudo, hungarian flag? wait...

nulte: nah on c4

Wontonimo: perhaps by version of their bot

dbdr: *letter

nulte: you can always use https://cgstats.magusgeek.com/ Wontonimo

nulte: not really a summary but it gives the win rate

Marchete: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/570363870

Marchete: :D

BlaiseEbuth: Glutton...

Astrobytes: lol, brutal

Marchete: it seems unexplored

Marchete: so the NN just shrugs

jacek: huh

Marchete: Oo

Astrobytes: oO

Wontonimo: nice nulte , thanks for the reminder link

sprkrd: sup guys

Marchete: :wave:

dbdr: my NN you mean?

Marchete: it seems

Marchete: it's rare to find a low score on these matches

Marchete: so I guess I did a dumb move your bot wasn't expecting

dbdr: victory by dumbness :+1:

AllYourTrees: :wave:

Marchete: frank grimes vs homer simpson :D

YurkovAS: in oware top8 all with NN?

dbdr: I think so

Marchete: top11 except MSmits

YurkovAS: thanks

Astrobytes: nulte: nice

nulte: meh

nulte: I almost beat you :p

nulte: its not ept yet

nulte: just random rollout

nulte: random with forced captures

Astrobytes: good work

nulte: Thanks

69razer69: this chat isn't as dead as the discord server's chat

Astrobytes: Either one is dead from time to time

jacek: or celestia's chat

Marchete: the problem with discord is that either chat or see the CG IDE

Marchete: embedded chat is better

Astrobytes: Multiple monitors ftw

69razer69: whats coding escape did you gave it a go

nulte: its like escape rooms

nulte: coop

Astrobytes: They were pretty fun, the ones we did

69razer69: yup i just escaped training its fun ah

Astrobytes: Definitely gotta pick the right people for your team, that will make or break the experience I think

69razer69: how is that

69razer69: skilled or funny ppl

Astrobytes: It's heavy on teamwork and communication. Skilled and people you're comfortable with, yes

69razer69: got u

Astrobytes: Not everyone needs to be good at programming, but problem solving, logic etc is useful

KiwiTae: or just take a second account and solve it on your own

KiwiTae: because why do teamwork when you can stay alone :sunglasses:

KiwiTae: :no_mouth:

Marchete: :ok_hand:

Astrobytes: We had a laugh when we did it, doing it myself would've been OK but kinda boring

KiwiTae: same, we did one with my team it was fun

Astrobytes: Was TBali, struct, Scarfield and myself, think we did 3 rooms? Didn't do that last one.

nulte: oh i forgot to check if a player captures all pieces

nulte: on win check

nulte: :D

jacek: does it really happen though?

Astrobytes: I haven't seen it happen personally

nulte: it can happen

nulte: https://www.codingame.com/replay/570373111

nulte: astro could have captured my last piece

Astrobytes: lol

Marchete: he doesn't have a win by killing all pawns

nulte: me neither

Astrobytes: Victory conditions You reach first the opponent's home row. You capture all opponent pieces.

nulte: or i would have pushed instead of going sideways

69razer69: oware abepa

jacek: leviosa

Astrobytes: om namo oware-abapa

dbdr: Marchete: I tried that state (frame 44) with newer weights, and I play differently

dbdr: so maybe I learned

dbdr: but the version in the arena does well against top players :)

nulte: NN problems

jacek: NN problems - losing points to noobs when winning

dbdr: and maybe it does well because it does some weird things and activates *their* blind spots

Marchete: yay! I'm lucky then

69razer69: i am trying a basic minimax for the default bot

nulte: which game'

Astrobytes: Oware I believe

69razer69: breakthrough

Astrobytes: Man, such a red herring.

69razer69: no its not owares mood

69razer69: what u mean

Astrobytes: A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important question. It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences toward a false conclusion

jacek: plot twist: its :notebook: :soccer:

Astrobytes: So when you mentioned Oware but were actually playing Breakthrough... :)

Marchete: paper soccer!!!

69razer69: no i was reading oware gamerules whe i mentioned it

Astrobytes: hehe

Marchete: don't play this game unless you are testing NN's

Marchete: weird rules

Astrobytes: lol, not that bad

AllYourTrees: :barf:

AllYourTrees: :sick:

martinpapa69: ye i feel like this game could have been much more simple

69razer69: u mean breakthrough or oware

Astrobytes: Oware they mean

Marchete: oware, weird rules

nulte: oware

martinpapa69: too many artificial rules

Astrobytes: Regarding Breakthrough, I would advise minimax w/ alpha beta as a minimum

Marchete: at turn 200 do you take your seeds?

martinpapa69: would be nice to make a BetterOware game

Marchete: things like that

Marchete: BetterOware == rm -rf ./oware

Astrobytes: In that respect yes, I'll give you that

69razer69: lol overwhelmed

AllYourTrees: what do ya'll think of bandas for nn testbed

QuickMathzs: sus

jacek: there are some nns in bandas

AllYourTrees: :eyes:

AllYourTrees: is it yours jacek?

jacek: yes

69razer69: so do you train the nn here or elsewhere than imports weights n stuff here

jacek: but i think rono has

nulte: if boardgame and player == jacek return NN

jacek: b

Astrobytes: rono lol

jacek: train offline, copy weights to ide

69razer69: ok

inoryy: jacek how many games do you have NNs in?

jacek: yes

Astrobytes: A wild inoryy appears

inoryy: o/

Astrobytes: long time no see

jacek: hmm. oware, bt, checkers, chess, bandas, onitama, c4, uttt, clobber...

jacek: othello and yavalath are n-tuples

AllYourTrees: for FPU in MCTS, is the node value `fpu` or `fpu + uct_value`?

inoryy: impressive! are they highly ranked?

jacek: most are top5

Marchete: https://cgmulti.azke.fr/players?p=jacek

jacek: but some games are new and have low players

jacek: AllYourTrees normal MCTS?

AllYourTrees: ya

inoryy: nice, do you work in AI?

jacek: normally fpu is some fixed value like 1.0 instead of inf for unvisited node

Marchete: in alphazero is -1

AllYourTrees: kk

Marchete: or loss

jacek: no, for work i write apps for android. nothing ai in that

Marchete: in others is -parentScore

jacek: stuff on cg is my hobby

Marchete: he is hiring a group of AI supervilains

martinpapa69: its better to keep ai as a hobby. i worked in it, and regret it to ruin my hobby

jacek: fpu generally works if you have some heuristic to guess which moves are better than others.

Marchete: supervillAIns

dbdr: does NN policy count as heuristic?

Marchete: inoryy NN is the 2021's GA

Marchete: almost top10 oware multi are NN

jacek: yes

inoryy: hah, cool!

jacek: before NN craze, heuristics were cool in mcts

jacek: and fpu helped with high branching factor to reduce to subset of promising child, instead of expanding all of them

inoryy: is everyone running custom frameworks now?

jacek: is there non-custom one? oO

AllYourTrees: ya "import coding_game_nn"

AllYourTrees: "coding_game_nn.play()"

AllYourTrees: ez

dbdr: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/58137/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game-codingame/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game

martinpapa69: back then you could import tensorflow in python on cg

martinpapa69: bu for some reason it got removed

inoryy: jacek not sure I follow the question

jacek: but then the fire nation attacked

Astrobytes: Disappeared with the removal of python2

RoboStac: it went with python2 martinpapa69

RoboStac: inoryy - I think most are still using tf / torch for training and just doing custom forward stages

inoryy: oh that guide looks awesome, great job Marchete

jacek: since no nn libs on cg, people do forward in code themselves

Astrobytes: I think robo just said that ;)

martinpapa69: some mini cpp inference lib at least would be nice on cg server

inoryy: so nobody tried going through model serving?

jacek: model serving?

Marchete: I did an AZ/AGZ for dummies like me

inoryy: https://github.com/tensorflow/serving

martinpapa69: i worked with that a bit. but how does it come to cg ?

jacek: could this work for cg with 100k characters limits?

inoryy: same way you'd import a precompiled binary

jacek: people have weights, generally float16/15. also for oware most people have one-hots for first layer. kinda very custom

Marchete: I did a minimal inference engine, similar to TF, it's also on that tutorial/github

Marchete: "similar" lol

Marchete: I mean how you define the model

inoryy: TF models can be served on tiny hardware so in theory it should fit into CG limits with a bit of hacking

inoryy: I never got around to give it a go so might not even work but a bit surprised nobody tried it still

inoryy: PyTorch has similar functionality iirc

Marchete: at some time I tried TF Lite and some other TF for embeddeds

Marchete: they were "huge" in CG terms

inoryy: right, not quite what I mean, you can basically hack into a tier lower than what TF Lite offered which you can think of TF for embedds "with bells and whistles" you don't need and can throw away

martinpapa69: im pretty sure, that the compiled binary would be still few megabytes at least

Marchete: I think the problem right now is how to improve performance, NN inference are slow, and CG's turn are small

RoboStac: tflite is a few hundred kb for simple image stuff

dbdr: sometimes it's more work to remove the 95% you don't need than to build the 5% you do need

RoboStac: but still well over 100

inoryy: to be clear I'm not saying I'm certain it's the better way so don't go off investing time into it, was just curious if anybody gave it a go

inoryy: dbdr that's probably true

Marchete: I tried as I said

Marchete: some TF for embedded devices

Marchete: trying to strip it down

RoboStac: I'm also not convinced tf would get near the performance as it's a bit too generalised

Marchete: the h5 reader was huge

Marchete: I'm sure Robo 3x the TF performance

Marchete: at least

inoryy: yeah, makes sense

inoryy: damn you guys got advanced so fast

Marchete: fast :D

inoryy: now I'm scared to try things

Marchete: use my framework for oware

Marchete: ezpz

martinpapa69: eztop10

Marchete: that's an skeleton for CG

Marchete: the idea is to improve it

Marchete: if it's from a ML expert, the better :D

jacek: is 20 more ppl will use it, then it wont be ez top10

inoryy: thanks, I might give it a go once I get some vacation days :)

dbdr: everyone can be top 10

Marchete: probably you are bored of NN stuff, too

RoboStac: what if we want to be better than top 10

Marchete: 50 guys can be top 10

AllYourTrees: lol

dbdr: ezpz

inoryy: I don't get much CG style bot programming that's for sure

dbdr: technically it's impossible to be better than top10 ;)

Marchete: you become your worst enemy just after you made it

Astrobytes: I thought > top 10 was CG Premium

nulte: wtt c4 bot for bt bot

inoryy: oh, they finally added CG Premium? does it come with special CSB league?

nulte: that comes in 2025

Astrobytes: lol no

69razer69: lol so u astrobytes you said minimax alpha beta minimum i just wracked wooden league by playing the first legal move

Astrobytes: are there 2 leagues in Breakthrough?

nulte: which game?

nulte: there is only 1 league

Astrobytes: You're 132nd at 38%

69razer69: breaktrough

Astrobytes: 44%

69razer69: yup everyone is playing same strat

Astrobytes: Oh are they.

69razer69: yeah

69razer69: go see

Astrobytes: I'm watching my submit right now.

69razer69: how i can watch you crush me

Astrobytes: select me as an opponent in the IDE

nulte: I print a random move and got top 50

69razer69: wth lol

Astrobytes: Do that a few times and you might not

Astrobytes: somewhere between 80 and 50ish iirc

Astrobytes: nulte: you're making some illegal moves

Astrobytes: https://www.codingame.com/replay/570393843

jacek: :police_car:

dbdr: Marchete: more training or...?

Marchete: I was trying the alternative UCT formula

Marchete: with some retrain

Astrobytes: alternative UCT formula?

Marchete: from some paper

Astrobytes: there are a few...

imathwee: hi there

NDojo: hello :)

Marchete: http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1514096/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Marchete: page 45

Marchete: but I'm using it only on submit

Marchete: not on train

dbdr: while notFirst():

   read_some_random_paper()
   pick_random_idea()
   guess_how_to_apply_it()

Marchete: :rofl:

NDojo: xD

Marchete: while !first():

Marchete: train more

Marchete: read papers

Marchete: cry

Marchete: look leaderboards

Marchete: train more

Astrobytes: Interesting reading

Astrobytes: Saved

Astrobytes: Not sure it's 100% what you want in Oware but every little helps right

Marchete: why not

Astrobytes: Oware isn't Risk :P

Marchete: damn! I knew I forgot something!

Astrobytes: :rofl:

dbdr: page 45 is bibliography

Astrobytes: Nah seriously though, worth a shot right

dbdr: not sure it's a good idea to use that as UCT

Astrobytes: pdf index page dbdr

Marchete: 45->35

Astrobytes: and you have to scroll up just a touch

dbdr: :joy:

Marchete: btw CG IDE play is heavily crippled now

Marchete: very few matches

Astrobytes: No shit Sherlock :D

Marchete: luckily I don't benchmark a lot right now

Astrobytes: I test all my new features in arena now instead

Astrobytes: If they don't want IDE matches I'll give them server matches

Astrobytes: 25000 times per day

Astrobytes: (slight exaggeration there)

Marchete: only! 24886

Astrobytes: counting is for mathematicians :P

Astrobytes: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Astrobytes: I hate this game

Marchete: me too

Marchete: ..and I'm limited again

Marchete: f it, Astro's way!

Astrobytes: It's the way forward man. Local play only gets you so far

Marchete: my local play always keep saying I'm 60% better

Marchete: it doesn't reflect on arena

Astrobytes: That's true for a lot of local play, NN or not :D

Marchete: I'm the best 5yo basketball player!

Marchete: my mom says so

Astrobytes: hahaha :rofl:

Astrobytes: Exactly that!

Astrobytes: Argh. Fix bugs. Lose ranks.

KatMan911: any way to tell from CoC waiting lobby what kind of CoC it's going to be - short and sweet or long and hard?

juice0: if only there were some other way to phrase that question

KatMan911: Thank you, I do what I can :D :D :D

KatMan911: But disregarding the actual hardness of CoCs - can you tell from the CoC lobby what type of a CoC it'll be? Reverse, timed, etc.? Or is it just whatever, you either get lucky with the CoC or end up unsatisfied?

KatMan911: :thinking:

juice0: lol i think both the difficulty and style are meant to be a mystery until you're inside

WhaIe: @KatMan911 the game mode (fastest, shortest, reverse) is selected randomly in public lobbies. In private clashes, you can pick the mode

KatMan911: @Whale - gotcha, thanks. Oh, the mysteries of random CoCs...

KatMan911: @juice0 - I know, right? You have to wait until you finally get right inside - only then you find out how intense it's going to be. Sometimes you might need to employ some tricky techniques, and sometimes it's just getting quick and dirty, pounding hard at the problem until you finish.

juice0: if i could only get positive feedback about my CoC performance in real life like i do here, but it's rarely that impressive to have the shortest code or the fastest finish out there

KatMan911: I know, totally! And even then, you never get feedback right away. That's what bugs me. You might be thinking you've achieved success with 85% of test cases, 80% at least, but much, much later you get a shocker "oh, and BY THE WAY, blah-blah, 0%! Total failure!". At least with the CoCs here you know right away how well you're performing.

juice0: debugging my CoC here is a lot easier for sure, and i think a lot of it has to do with the differences in the feedback systems, as you just mentioned. sometimes IRL i can't get my CoC up and running, no matter how easy the test case.

KatMan911: We all have those days :( And yet you're always expected to have your CoC perform well, with all the evaluating and the judging, and you KNOW they'll be discussing your CoC if you don't measure up.

KatMan911: All right, I've had enough CoCs for the day, I'm exhausted. Nice talking to you, @juice0, - nice to see someone understands! :D

juice0: lol you too. i'll see you here tomorrow, when you're ready to get some more CoC'ing in