Chat:World/2021-07-08

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WhaIe: joe sister

Default avatar.png TheoreticalSnowflakeFromHell_bd76: hello

Pantaku: hi

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: haii

derjack: ohai

Default avatar.png aButteredChicken: Oh Hi Mark

TobiasA: hoi

Thyl: Hai !

BlaiseEbuth: Hell

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: haii

Default avatar.png destroyer69: do you like nevgon

derjack: nevgon give you up?

Default avatar.png destroyer69: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>><><><><><>

BlaiseEbuth: You know the rules and so do I...

derjack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uHmywWIgyk

**BlaiseEbuth is suspicious but he does not know why...

**Marchete thinks he knows

Default avatar.png MrKrabs1221: do you know any good website to learn java ?

Default avatar.png Rootop: this app is trash

Default avatar.png Rootop: :expressionless:

Default avatar.png N1cKN4W3: hellow

Default avatar.png N1cKN4W3: gimme doge

Default avatar.png Rootop: f

Default avatar.png Rootop: f

Default avatar.png Rootop: f

Default avatar.png N1cKN4W3: pls :(

Default avatar.png N1cKN4W3: :rage:

Default avatar.png N1cKN4W3: GIMME DOGE


derjack: :cat:

BlaiseEbuth: Here N1cKN4W3 https://imgur.com/a/AF3dqg7

Default avatar.png Arthur_Phantasm: hey yall, would it be possible to make a online multiplayer game here?

Default avatar.png Arthur_Phantasm: or, atleast learn how to make one?

derjack: online multiplayer? no. there are multis for bots only

Default avatar.png Arthur_Phantasm: sad

Astrobytes: the 'game' in 'codingame' does not imply game development. This is not a game development website.

derjack: :(

Arthur_Phantasm: welp fuck

BlaiseEbuth: Stay polite

Arthur_Phantasm: :thumbsup:

KiwiTae: I mean you can create a bot programming game

KiwiTae: :")

derjack: noice http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/File:TDGammon_Fig2.png

dbdr: derjack: by the author himself :)

Default avatar.png GhosT2: selamun aleyküm

Docer: teach me too code

Default avatar.png masknksnvsndvo: what is the shortest way of taking int input from the same line for 2 variables

Default avatar.png masknksnvsndvo: in python

Default avatar.png masknksnvsndvo: Because I'm currently using map

Default avatar.png masknksnvsndvo: but it's still lengthy

KiwiTae: input returns a string in python sorry

Shozy: im also writing lst = map(int, input.split(" "))

KiwiTae: map(int,input.split())

KiwiTae: and map is not a list

AllYourTrees: a,b=map(int,input.split())

Shozy: ye, I forgot about list before sry

Default avatar.png zmx: hello

Default avatar.png zmx: It's really difficult to python

KiwiTae: zmx nop

Default avatar.png zmx: teach me too code

Wontonimo: no problem zmx, here is a link you could check out www.google.com

Wontonimo: I've found lots of programming tutorials there

Default avatar.png zmx: cool

Wontonimo: np dude

struct: hi

Wontonimo: but more seriously, what lang have you tried?

Wontonimo: hi struct :wave:

Default avatar.png zmx: 我不知道

Wontonimo: Fancy, but i'm not familiar with that programming lang

Default avatar.png zmx: np dude

Wontonimo: you've been coding Python right?

Wontonimo: :eyes:

derjack: thats opening book?

Default avatar.png zmx: yeah

struct: more books on c4

struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

struct: good thing i only wasted a few hours on that game

derjack: therefore this is c4 library

Wontonimo: have you tried any of the practice puzzles zmx ?

derjack: hows the bt

struct: slow progress

struct: Maybe ill do amazons instead

struct: at least i wont struggle vs books

derjack: no books in bt

derjack: but some challenge in amazons would be welcome

struct: maybe i need to add a covert art to it

Astrobytes: So nobody can see it?

Astrobytes: (covert :P )

Default avatar.png zmx: I tried Wontonimo


Default avatar.png zmx: I can only do some simple ones

Wontonimo: cool, good job on doing some

Default avatar.png zmx: teach me too code


Wontonimo: i sent you a PM

Default avatar.png zmx: ok

Wontonimo: arn't you going to get on the book bandwagon struct?

struct: no

Wontonimo: take your time, you don't have to answer right away. i know it can take some introspection

struct: not really

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Wontonimo: lol

struct: I have strong opinion on it

Wontonimo: go for it, I'm sitting down

struct: im not against it, but its not really something that i would do

struct: lets keep it at that

Wontonimo: allergies. Yeah, I have a similar reaction to PHP

Astrobytes: heh heh heh

Im9: hi

Illedan: hi

Im9: im9

Wontonimo: (╯°□°)╯︵ ᴉɥ

Im9: ?

Astrobytes: hi Illedan

Wontonimo: i'm just thrown words around

Illedan: Zup astro? You joined the NN wave?

Astrobytes: Not yet lol

Astrobytes: Gonna have to it seems :)

Illedan: Indeed

Illedan: Just need a whole lot more time :D

Astrobytes: For sure!

derjack: cpu/gpu time?

struct: need summer to end first

Illedan: cpu/gpu/irl/spare/life/free time

Illedan: 4p games in blocking is so random -.-

struct: amazons is all you need

Illedan: Is that another game?

struct: yes

Astrobytes: yep

Illedan: hm

struct: unbookable

Astrobytes: A good one at that

struct: NNable

Illedan: Guess I've been far less active for a long time

Astrobytes: You *do* have a good excuse ;)

Default avatar.png zmx: i won't

Illedan: Shh

Illedan: ahhhhh

Illedan: so many board games

Illedan: -.-

struct: this one is different :(

struct: but i understand what you are saying

Illedan: This is just WW with less steps?

Astrobytes: Noooo

derjack: WW?

Illedan: Range on placing walls is infinite?

struct: range is infinite yes

Illedan: Top players doing NN?

struct: also you can move any range

struct: jacek has NN

derjack: no NNs yet

struct: But I dont think its his current submission

derjack: this game is even easier than onitama

struct: you have NN for it right ?

struct: just didnt submit

derjack: locally

derjack: no need to, still have 100% winrate

struct: is it mcts?

struct: the current one

derjack: minimax

derjack: simple yet powerful eval

Astrobytes: "what is this, the 90s?"

Astrobytes: :smirk:

Illedan: How hard could this be :thinking:

Illedan: OK, you had me at I got vacation and coffe

Illedan: I'll give it 2 hours

Illedan: Let's go

struct: gl :D

struct: hf

Illedan: Anyone got a free eval for sale?

Astrobytes: Nope.

derjack: be better than opponent

derjack: [sold]

Illedan: Nice

Illedan: I'll take that

Illedan: Don't blame me when I wreck you

struct: just wait until he sees the ammount of moves :D

Astrobytes: hehehe

Illedan: Whaaat, I don't get possible moves as input?

Illedan: :sob:

Astrobytes: Far too many

struct: you get number of legal moves

derjack: over 1000

derjack: welp heres my train

Illedan: Always 8x8 right?

struct: yes

struct: only difference between games should be the starting positions

Illedan: White always first?

struct: yes

struct: but you play 2 games

struct: one has white and one has black

Illedan: Yeah, but on swap. White is first on the next game too, yeah?

struct: yes

Default avatar.png IonutS: Hello

Default avatar.png iliass_aek: aloha

Illedan: struct, wouldn't the scoring on Amazons be better with number of open squares left as scoring? Feel it would often end in draws?

struct: hard to say

struct: if i didnt make it have 2 games there would be no draws :(

Illedan: Sure, but 2 games is nice

MSmits: it's better to have 2 games for balance

MSmits: if this means you get a lot of draws then it's even better as you eliminate the luck factor in going 1st or 2nd

MSmits: imagine uttt without 2 games, it would really suck

MSmits: p1 would win most of the time and your success on the board would depend on how often you were p1

struct: but i wonder if there is a difference in elo

struct: for 2 games

struct: and 2 games in same replay

Illedan: Yeah, but counting the square left would give less draws

struct: draws happen a lot in wood 2 because of random

MSmits: what I know for sure is that your 2 games choices makes it so that the leaderboard gives a more accurate measurement

struct: i make them play exactly same game

MSmits: re curse did this too with chess

MSmits: and langtons ant has it too

Illedan: Yeah, I agree on that part

Illedan: Just unsure about the win condition

struct: yeah the win condition is from the original rules

MSmits: it doesnt work for all games though, if you were to remove steal from yavalath and instead had 2 games, every result on the leaderboard would be a draw

MSmits: (at least between good bots)

MSmits: same with c4

BiMathAx: Hi, me and y friend are blocked on the level of the TV (in come back 80s) Someone can help us pls We have taken the indices but this still doesn't work and return a grid of 0

BiMathAx: (It's in codig espace)

MSmits: you can stream on your phone if you are blocked from TV

MSmits: (if this is a puzzle I have never heard of it )

BiMathAx: It's a puzzle in the coding escape

MSmits: ohhh ok

struct: I think you need to or

struct: both inputs to the tv

struct: iirc

struct: or xor

struct: cant really recall

struct: did the puzzle a few months ago, had trouble recalling what the tv was

Marchete: :tv:

struct: ty

Marchete: np bro

geekHarsh: lets do code https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/18548436803882324c997dec1ed867c2af4ac1b

Illedan: struct, I would really love some indicator on the tiles on their game color. Like a Blue/Red star or whatnot in the center to make tracking a game easier..

Illedan: *pices

Illedan: *pieces

struct: i guess I can do that

Illedan: Just a circles in the center of small width is sufficient I think :)

struct: you mean on the walls right?

Illedan: No, on the Controllable pieces

struct: ah ok

Illedan: Takes me some time every game to figure who I am

Illedan: Wood 1 :)

struct: that was fast

Illedan: Unless unlucky streak

Illedan: :tada:

Illedan: :)

struct: grats

struct: you beat astroboss

Illedan: Hmm, I don't like Wood 1. Let me down again :scream:

Astrobytes: lol

Astrobytes: I need to work on this soon, don't even have bitboards

Illedan: Who needs bitboards

Astrobytes: Me if I'm going to improve my bot :D

Illedan: ^^

Illedan: My goal is above the fox before doing something else :P

Illedan: oh, done :D

Astrobytes: lol

PatrickMcGinnisII: I smell trouble. eh I need a shower. ;)

Wontonimo: that's not trouble, that's defeat

PatrickMcGinnisII: like fett i do not smell

PatrickMcGinnisII: er, like feet i do not smell

Astrobytes: Boba McGinnis

Wontonimo: what's your bot so far Illedan ?

Illedan: Just bruteforce everything and throw a Vornoi at it

Wontonimo: I haven't used Vornoi on anything on CG yet. Actually, don't think I've ever applied it to any computer problem

PatrickMcGinnisII: voroni works well on tron

Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Illedan: Losing by 1 move some games vs trictra. Can't quit just jet

Wontonimo: i've done simultaneous flood fill. Are you doing it with lines?

Illedan: Oh, true. I do floodfill on the lines and not Vornoi

Illedan: With altering colors

Wontonimo: colour per player, or colour per round%2 ?

Illedan: Color per player with decay on the depth

Wontonimo: that worked for me for Tron, but no decay. Decay is an interesting twist.

PatrickMcGinnisII: "Back to the code" works too

struct: i see the draws ammout

struct: o.o

struct: I guess it happens more on unbalanced positions

Default avatar.png Samson120: any tips on detecting a loop in a map?

jacek: you have bitboards in amazons?

Illedan: Me? No

jacek: oO

Illedan: Why would I?

Illedan: I use 1 ms at most..

jacek: oh my

struct: true ai

jacek: its like theyre not even trying

Illedan: I used 2 hours on this thing :P

struct: only jacek remains undefeated

Default avatar.png Feverbrew: howdy

jacek: w00t

jacek: impossibru https://www.codingame.com/replay/569098620

jacek: time to delete account

DarmorGamz: Built different ^

struct: submit the NN

struct: thats not acceptable

FalINTOblivion0112: hmmm fun clash of codes

FalINTOblivion0112: i sit everyday like a zombie and just code

jacek: Blaise did you hear that? oO

Wontonimo: join the fun in multis FalINTOblivion0112 , and code up a bot to play Connect 4

jacek: or read some connect 4 memes

Wontonimo: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/connect-4/leaderboard

jacek: https://forum.codingame.com/t/community-puzzle-connect-4/189435/7

jacek: its thursday and almost no mention of this puzzle of the week

FalINTOblivion0112: its coming out i think

FalINTOblivion0112: later this week

Astrobytes: isn't it coop mate with rook?

jacek: yes, but no one mentioned it in the chat

jacek: while previous week everyone were hyped for sokoban

jacek: or ban

Astrobytes: guess they're probably still doing sokoban

Astrobytes: Or escape rooms

jacek: oh didnt see escape rooms hype either

jacek: maybe they escaped from the chat

Astrobytes: discord is where the hypes at, plus you get your own chat in escapes

Default avatar.png punter147: cooperative mate with rook should be solved by bfs right?

Default avatar.png punter147: coz we need the shortest sequence of moves

Illedan: lol jacek, that replay :D

FalINTOblivion0112: discord gang?

jacek: punter147 bfs is for shortest, yes

Default avatar.png punter147: thanks jacek, will give this puzzle a try.

ja_fica: MSmits, how much speed you do games in your meta MCTS solver?

MSmits: that depends on how deep the branch is.

MSmits: when it is exploring nearly solved branchines, up to 100 games/s

ja_fica: I always start from the begining

MSmits: branches

ja_fica: I m building my first opening book creater

MSmits: oh cool

MSmits: what do you mean starting from the beginning?

ja_fica: Thats what i'm submiting

ja_fica: Well im not doing a meta MCTS

MSmits: oh you're just doing normal mcts with high calculation time?

ja_fica: I'm doing MCTS on top of a AI vs AI MTCS plays

ja_fica: No not taht

ja_fica: Im using MTCS for each play

MSmits: how does that work? It sounds like meta mcts to me

ja_fica: each play is stored in TT

ja_fica: TT also with symetry

MSmits: sure, same as me then

ja_fica: Its close to meta

MSmits: but whats different

ja_fica: I use different UCT formula

MSmits: oh, ok

jacek: D:

MSmits: what is the function of the new formula?

Illedan: Astrobytes, what are you submitting?

MSmits: your end

Astrobytes: Not sure Illedan, since I ran out of plays

MSmits: :)

Illedan: :D

Astrobytes: So I just though fk it

ja_fica: (obp->visits[col]==0 ? 0.4 : (obp->score[col]+obp->visits[col])/(obp->visits[col]*2.0)) + (obp->defaultMove == col && obp->totalVisits<(4+plays*4) ? 2.2f : 1.2f)*sqrt(clog/(obp->visits[col]+1));

MSmits: looks complicated

ja_fica: I want to force replays in MTCS so I can have good intermidiate books

Astrobytes: think my earlier one was better but thanks to CG I don't know

Illedan: Yeah, that replay cap

Illedan: sad panda noises

ja_fica: I tries multiple until I found one that resulted in good entries

Illedan: Anyway, off to play cards and drink beer. Cya

ja_fica: I only have around 65 so far

Illedan: Need a new game tomorrow

MSmits: 65 what?

Astrobytes: Nice, cya later Illedan, enjoy :)

ja_fica: 65 good entries

MSmits: whats an entry? A move?

ja_fica: a state

ja_fica: state->move

MSmits: oh, but how do you know they're good?

MSmits: btw meta mcts, if done well, gives you good opening moves very very slowly

ja_fica: parent >= x visits && (win>=40% || solved && WIN)

MSmits: do you build a meta tree?

ja_fica: No

ja_fica: I have an unordered_map with a good hash function

MSmits: well i have something like that too, but I still use it as if it is a tree

MSmits: i generate the moves and during selection i pick them out of the dictionary (hash map)

ja_fica: In you values from your maps, you have pointer to the other states?

MSmits: no, everything is in a dictionary, similar to your unordered map

MSmits: the state representation is the hash key

MSmits: so i generate children, turn all of them into keys and pick the correct nodes out of the dictionary

MSmits: if they dont exist, i create them

ja_fica: the hash function cannot be the same as the key

MSmits: and select that node as a leaf to run a game from (since its new)

ja_fica: Unless you have spent millions of dollares on memory

MSmits: well C# handles the conversion of Guid (128 bit type) to a hash key

MSmits: but equality is checked so it's all fine

ja_fica: Yes, I prefer to make my hash function

MSmits: I do in C++ as well, but this part of my meta mcts is not a bottleneck even with a really bad hash function

ja_fica: I use the trick I told you last time, it highl reduces collisions

MSmits: the games are run in c++ from the leafs of the dictionary (tree) in my C# windows forms program

ja_fica: the p0 | availablemoves

MSmits: yeah thats nice

MSmits: i would use it if i needed it

ja_fica: I never understood what you mean by playing only the leaf nodes

ja_fica: you don't store every state, I suppose

MSmits: hmm i'll try to explain

MSmits: ok so think of 1 overarching tree in my C# program

MSmits: all of it is stored (currently 6 GB)

MSmits: I start every game at the root of this

MSmits: then i do 1 single selection downwards until i hit a leaf of this stored tree

MSmits: so it's just 1 selection phase of mcts (which is why it can be slow)

MSmits: at some point there's a leaf

MSmits: a c++ mcts selfplay program is run from this leaf

MSmits: this runs my bot that is also on the leaderboard

MSmits: and finishes the game

MSmits: (can be long, or very short)

ja_fica: how you communicate from c# to c++, I tryied so hard and couldn«t do it

ja_fica: .NET?

MSmits: sec yes

ja_fica: advantages of windows

Astrobytes: you can just run another process or you can use a dll

ja_fica: between c# and c++, I can only force it using nodejs as the mensager

ja_fica: MSmits, I have a new map in 4-5 minuts

MSmits: https://pastebin.com/RCwtEJ7c

ja_fica: You want to submit your bot again so we don't harm our points

MSmits: thats most of it

ja_fica: unfortunally it does not work outside .NET

MSmits: start process runs once at the start of the program, once it's running it's just being used by simulation.

MSmits: I use 10 processes in parallel

MSmits: thanks to mutex it's safe

MSmits: gets a bit hot in here though :P

ja_fica: Yes, in c++ should be easy as well

ja_fica: Im also thinking of doing it in cuda

MSmits: i have no experience with any of that. Windows forms was just the first thing i managed to do and i never tried anything else

ja_fica: But is do difficult to SIMD leveraging from UCT formula

MSmits: i never use simd in uct

ja_fica: cuda is playing each game in a graphic thread

ja_fica: I tried, and it was not a good idea

MSmits: i tried also and it was also not a good idea :P

MSmits: struct tried also

Astrobytes: not sure anyone's had success with simd in uct, or did someone? struc t or marchet e?

MSmits: i think struc t did have some success, but only if there was exactly the right amount of children

Astrobytes: oh struct had false positives right

MSmits: or just enough

MSmits: i think so, but not 100% sure

struct: only worth if there are exactly 8 children

Astrobytes: something like that iirc

MSmits: ah good, i remembered correctly then

Astrobytes: There ya go

struct: loading values is expensive

struct: it might be good in games like bit runner

struct: if you have always the same N moves

ja_fica: AVX512 is far superior to AVX2

ja_fica: loading is the same time and have many more instructions like popcount

MSmits: i guess some bots may need some work if that gets onto cg cpus

MSmits: popcount for the full register would be great

MSmits: i wanted that for uttt

MSmits: instead i popcount 3 times 64 bit

ja_fica: yes, I needed that for C4

MSmits: i union 9 miniboards with 3x 64 bit

MSmits: then i can quickly count the free moves

MSmits: for c4 could be helpful as well

AllYourTrees: huh adding draw handling to my mcts solver for C4 bumped up rating more than expected

ja_fica: I open 4 nodes at the same time with AVX in C4

jacek: oO

ja_fica: I couldnt explain it if I could

jacek: how do you handle draws differently than before

PatrickMcGinnisII: o.q

ja_fica: It was a weird idea

AllYourTrees: i ignored draws before, you could only win or lose :D

jacek: oh

AllYourTrees: well in the mcts solver, in the game you could draw

MSmits: they are fairly rare in actual played games, but within the search they may occur way more often

AllYourTrees: yeah

ja_fica: I prepare the nodess to be open without opening them, but still use the process time to predict 3 plays ahead without the memory overhead of opening nodes

ja_fica: The better the AI's the most likely they are to draw

MSmits: seems hard to predict 3 plays ahead

ja_fica: And costly

ja_fica: I only have 45k rollouts in first turn, without AVX I have 27k

MSmits: a rollout is an expansion with 1 similation?

AllYourTrees: are you using a NN fica?

ja_fica: No, although im saving meta MCTS data for NN

MSmits: oh, I guess Icould do that too

ja_fica: I think opening book + NN can work

MSmits: it can, if you balance the code size properly

ja_fica: I can buy your data

AllYourTrees: opening book just play 4 in the center :) there you win!

ja_fica: But for UTTT,

MSmits: maybe after i solve it, if i do :)

ja_fica: I don't think it can be solved when first play it not near the center

MSmits: ja_fica how do you store your state + move?

MSmits: i think it can be solved, maybe not by me. Probably within 10k or so cloudcomputing time

ja_fica: tuple<uint64_t, uint64_t, int>

MSmits: i mean, in codesize

ja_fica: a verctor of tuples

MSmits: how are they written

ja_fica: Rigths now i only have 65 entries so is something like this

lignus: mkæas

Astrobytes: Illedan submitting every time I submit eh :P

lignus: they call me mister hacker man

ja_fica: ({ {0LL, 2LL, 3}, {0LL, 1LL, 5}, {2LL, 16LL, 4}, {1LL, 8LL, 3}})

lignus: wops sorry this is an actual chat

Astrobytes: I'm using submit as my "Play My Code" right now

MSmits: ja_fica so you store whole states with their moves?

MSmits: that's very costly

MSmits: it's cheaper to store a tree, with just the moves

MSmits: the moves build up the state

ja_fica: how?

MSmits: like this:

ja_fica: Thats really smart

MSmits: {4{5{3}}} etc

MSmits: a { means go deeper

ja_fica: I use that technique in regular MCTS

MSmits: } means go back up

MSmits: first move is always best

MSmits: second move is an opponent move you may have to counter

MSmits: and third also

MSmits: etc.

ja_fica: thats a really good idead thanks

MSmits: thats how i stored it before

MSmits: but I converted to unicode thingy

MSmits: now 1 character is 2-3 moves

MSmits: so I can probably store around 200k

MSmits: currently i have 26k stored

struct: this is my book: 1

ja_fica: yes xD

MSmits: great book, exciting till the end :)

jacek: dont spoil the ending

MSmits: you gotta work on the sequel

MSmits: 7

PatrickMcGinnisII: :popcorn:

RoboStac: mines like structs but the 1 can randomly be a 7

MSmits: ahh, one of those choose your own adventure randomly books

MSmits: currently working on D&B mcts

PatrickMcGinnisII: numbers are movees :popcorn:

struct: in d&b you are safe from NNs

ja_fica: robo why not try a neural-opening book with a bigger NN?

MSmits: for now, i do think it's possible, but very hard to get a working NN

PatrickMcGinnisII: ooh, movies with monsters

MSmits: neural opening book?

RoboStac: from what msmits has said my bot pretty much plays his book moves anyway

RoboStac: until a fairly decent depth

MSmits: my current version is weaker though robo, you're 1 again

MSmits: yeah about 18 or so

RoboStac: mm, still have 0% against you though, just better against others

RoboStac: I'll have to try some 8bit magic, worked well on oware

MSmits: yeah, I guess the branches it plays vs you didnt change because it spent millions of games on other branches. I dont watch it much. I just submit and sometimes it's good, sometimes not

ja_fica: neural-opening books can have more moves using less weigths space if you use convolution, it can be advantagous

ja_fica: After X detph use regular algorithm

MSmits: i just dont see how a nn can be a book

PatrickMcGinnisII: ahh, Nightmare on Elmstreet

MSmits: i mean they're mostly eval-machines

PatrickMcGinnisII: glhf

ja_fica: Also convotions usually have better accuracy

Marchete: 8bit magic RoboStac?

Marchete: int8 quantization?

RoboStac: yeah

ja_fica: neural opening book is an imperct book

Marchete: I was thinking about it

Marchete: but int16

ja_fica: *imperfect book

Marchete: maybe I'll recheck later

Marchete: but it's hard to do...

RoboStac: int16 on my current bot was about 20% faster, int8 is closer to 50% faster

MSmits: ja_fica this is like my TTT experiments, fitting a perfect minimax result to a NN. it would be like 98% accurate, but never 100

RoboStac: you do have to retrain for int8 though unless you've capped relu

Marchete: tensorflow like quant, or custom made?

RoboStac: custom (similar to stockfish)

Marchete: no, I have free relus :D

Marchete: ahh ok

RoboStac: the stockfish article is what made me try it, I wasn't aware of the madd instructions before

Marchete: madd?

Marchete: fmadd?

BlaiseEbuth: Breaking the head of someone by hitting him violently with a dictionary, that's a neural opening book.

RoboStac: no, not fma

RoboStac: _mm256_madd_epi16

MSmits: BlaiseEbuth thanks

Astrobytes: BlaiseEbuth: technically that's a cranial opening book

Marchete: ahh I knew it

Marchete: mult going to 16bit, no?

Marchete: hmm no

RoboStac: well, you do 4 int 8's -> 2 int 16's -> 1 int32

Marchete: I need to recheck

BlaiseEbuth: Astrobytes: Depends of how hard you hit.

Astrobytes: BlaiseEbuth: Fair

MSmits: last day at work tomorrow

MSmits: well half a day

MSmits: then 6 weeks off

jacek: 6 weeks of more meta mcts

MSmits: nah, i dont think i will be running it much

MSmits: will be on vacation for a week, also it will be too hot

MSmits: i mostly want to try get nr 1 in D&B, get a oware NN working

MSmits: maybe write that article about uttt and some other stuff

MSmits: those 3 things are my modest goals :)

Astrobytes: 6 weeks, nice :)

MSmits: RoboStac, in this replay https://www.codingame.com/replay/569124769 my meta mcts says your 2nd move is a losing move

Astrobytes: Also, make the most of the vacation and don't CG during it :)

MSmits: so thats frame 4

BlaiseEbuth: :(

MSmits: i think you recover from it in most cases

MSmits: just not vs my bot

MSmits: Astrobytes i will CG 80% of it :)

MSmits: oh

MSmits: you mean on vacation

Astrobytes: Yes

MSmits: no, mostly no Cg :)

Astrobytes: ALL no CG, I insist :P

MSmits: maybe when i am bored and everyone else is sleeping

Astrobytes: Yeah alright, I'll give you that

BlaiseEbuth: :cry:

RoboStac: interesting. My bot thinks 1/3/4 are very equal (all between .495 and .51) and that ones winning on policy

MSmits: https://imgur.com/a/oIW6kMd

MSmits: so it's 66% wins from there on playing 5 for my bot

MSmits: at least in the meta tree

MSmits: it's really hard for any bot to get the first few moves right I guess

MSmits: they changed for me as well even after millions of games

MSmits: just from a strategic perspective, it would seem better to control the center

jacek: oh there is (or will?) 2nd season of kobayashi dragon

jacek: :3

MSmits: aww damn, sucks jacek

RoboStac: yeah, I think it's just struggling with the length of the line to beat that - it's convinced it'll be a draw until frame 15 when you start to get a slight advantage (.55)

MSmits: EuroBronyCon 2021 postponed

MSmits: hmm

MSmits: that could be it

jacek: you wanted to attend it?

MSmits: https://imgur.com/a/oIW6kMd

MSmits: chat crashed for me

Astrobytes: yeah, came back just a min ago

MSmits: ahh ok

Default avatar.png Keegangb: how are you guys training the networks

MSmits: so... jacek, I was just sympathetic to you missing the brony conference. Personally I am not a brony :)

AllYourTrees: use a training leash and carry around treats whereever ya go :D

Astrobytes: lol, AllYourJokes

AllYourTrees: AllYourLaughsAreBelongToMe

Default avatar.png wakils: any trump supporters?

BlaiseEbuth: I prefer guitar.

MSmits: guitar > trump

MSmits: trump(et)

Astrobytes: hey trumpets are awesome

MSmits: so are guitars

BlaiseEbuth: Is that trump tump site already exists ?

Astrobytes: Yeah but can you pick between Miles Davis and Django Reinhardt? (for example)

Default avatar.png Keegangb: no pls

Default avatar.png Keegangb: are you able to store permanent data during game simulation

Astrobytes: Offline training

Default avatar.png Keegangb: so u literally have to remake the game

MSmits: not visually, but yes

Astrobytes: You have to do that for any search algo so it's not much of an issue

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok yea i thought maybe that was what you guys were doing but thats so painful lmao

Astrobytes: The source for most games is available so that helps

Default avatar.png Keegangb: oh thats op

Default avatar.png Keegangb: so like for the pod racer?

Default avatar.png Keegangb: cause that one seems to be the most active

Astrobytes: Only cause it's the tutorial multi

Default avatar.png Keegangb: whats most active popualar then

Astrobytes: well what do you like?

MSmits: changes every few weeks

Astrobytes: There are a few physics-based games like the pod racing, lots of board games, lots of grid games

MSmits: ultimate tic tac toe comes back every 6 months or so

Astrobytes: cause of #ru or you usually :D

Default avatar.png Keegangb: i mean i was really interested in physics until i found out that all the big boys just use NN, i mean i like ai but i was interested in ig "figuring out" the game

Default avatar.png Keegangb: or are people using NNs for pretty much all games including the min-max ones

MSmits: thats not really true Keegangb

Astrobytes: You can still get very high in Legend leagues without an NN, just the top spots are currently occupied in many games

MSmits: in coders strike back it's just top 6 or so

MSmits: and legend alone has 1000 players

Astrobytes: *a NN

jacek: an NN*

jacek: i always read NN as enen

Default avatar.png Keegangb: true ig it could go either way

MSmits: in boardgames it's on average 2 players with NN

Astrobytes: me too jacek but everyone else here hated it

Default avatar.png Keegangb: okay well that makes me more it=nterested

Astrobytes: Well, Oware...

jacek: for minimax or mcts you still need to simulate game yourself

MSmits: i did say average

Astrobytes: :)

MSmits: yes you can plug a NN into an existing search bot

MSmits: so you'll need to learn those things anyway

MSmits: NN is just the last step

MSmits: and it's up to you if you want to take it

Default avatar.png Keegangb: so its doable to get top 10 in whatever game with NN tho

Default avatar.png Keegangb: without

Default avatar.png Keegangb: *

Astrobytes: Yes

MSmits: in csb it's possible, but very very hard with the extreme amount of players

MSmits: in other games it's very possible

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok cool

MSmits: many games dont even have a NN

MSmits: on the leaderboard

jacek: like :notebook: :soccer:

Default avatar.png Keegangb: are NNs prevalent in the seasonal competitions or are you like not even allowed

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok thats neat

MSmits: if you're a good coder already, try D&B

MSmits: but sure paper soccer works

Default avatar.png Keegangb: which is that

MSmits: dots and boxes

jacek: in last contest, top 1 NN dominated the leaderboard

MSmits: it needs a lot of math which turns off most NN players

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok i figured haha

MSmits: i dont mean they dont understand the math, but they cant just plug in their nn framework into D&B is why

MSmits: takes a lot of adaptation

jacek: d&b is very mathy and more like all-or-nothing

MSmits: yeah, like clobber

MSmits: though more so

MSmits: I like it a lot

Default avatar.png Keegangb: i kinda want to experiment with custom models/methods for NNs so maybe i just have to join the boys

jacek: have you read the article on cgzero

MSmits: oware and csb are best then

Default avatar.png Keegangb: i havent

jacek: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/58137/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game-codingame/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game

MSmits: marchet e paved the way for you

MSmits: Keegangb

MSmits: but i would suggest you write a normal oware bot first

Astrobytes: ^

Astrobytes: Get it working first

Default avatar.png Keegangb: you mean no NN?

Astrobytes: Yeah

MSmits: yeah just mcts or minimax or whatever you like

MSmits: get a working sim, check if it makes no mistakes

Astrobytes: Verify your simulation etc

MSmits: or say the same thing in 3 words

Astrobytes: :rofl:

MSmits: i will soon be out of top 10 in oware

struct: just wait until my NN is finished

Default avatar.png Keegangb: im confused what oware is

Default avatar.png Keegangb: is that a standalone game

Default avatar.png Keegangb: i mean a game on this platform

MSmits: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/oware-abapa

struct: its currently 40ºC in the room

MSmits: it's a bot game

MSmits: lol struct

Astrobytes: that's just summer in Portugal

MSmits: if you check the leaderboard, my bot is the highest ranking non-NN and it's only 8th :P

MSmits: 9th also NN

Default avatar.png Keegangb: jeez nn is just so op

MSmits: Keegangb oware is an exception though

MSmits: it's really easy to write a nn for it

MSmits: much harder for other games

Default avatar.png Keegangb: do you know what highest non NN for csb is?

Astrobytes: *relative to some other games that is

MSmits: let me check

Astrobytes: Yurkov?

MSmits: not sure if yurko is NN

MSmits: might be

MSmits: he had a good smitsimax bot, beat mine

MSmits: i think thats still it

MSmits: so yeah yurko

Astrobytes: Yeah he went in hard on that, all of ru did I think

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok cool so doable for sure getting top 10

MSmits: yeah seems so

MSmits: Keegangb it's probably the hardest game on CG to get top 10 in

MSmits: and thats not even because of the NNs

MSmits: some people spent months on their bot

Default avatar.png Keegangb: yea i figured it would be since its the first game u get presented with

MSmits: that too

Default avatar.png Keegangb: yea i want to make this a little project and a good challenge

MSmits: sure is

TobiasA: i know a lot of people who play that oware game in real life. i didn't even know it was in codingame too:joy:

MSmits: TobiasA cool, there are a lot of variants though

MSmits: different game rules

Astrobytes: Yeah for sure, it's popular though

struct: i still need to finish my csb bot

Default avatar.png Keegangb: okay well i might just stick to non-NN for a while cause im far too lazy for all the groundwork required for NN at the moment

Default avatar.png Keegangb: does legend introduce yet more information than gold for scb?

Default avatar.png Keegangb: csbb*

MSmits: also if you do csb, then noone shared a full framework, they did for oware

MSmits: (nn framework)

struct: legend has 200 thrust instead of 100

Astrobytes: No, other than the max thrust

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok thats not too bad

Default avatar.png Keegangb: most code would still apply

MSmits: all other games stop changing rules after bronze btw

Astrobytes: And there's the Nash-DQN article by pb

MSmits: csb is a big exception in many ways

Astrobytes: *pb and Agad e

MSmits: yeah thats helpful and gives some detail, but nowhere near what marchet e did

MSmits: they specifically kept some things to themselves

Astrobytes: Indeed. Different though

Astrobytes: https://github.com/pb4git/Nash-DQN-CSB-Article

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok nice

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok bookmarked the marchete link tho for when i want to get into it

MSmits: you and me both

Default avatar.png Keegangb: is it common to need a compressor for these games?

struct: no

MSmits: to compress the nn weights yes

BlaiseEbuth: perhaps

MSmits: for nn only Keegangb

MSmits: not for any normal bot

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok thats what i was wondering

MSmits: you have 100k characters

MSmits: depending on how long your lines are that's 3k/4k lines

BlaiseEbuth: Ok, so NN are not normals. Racist

MSmits: most bots are around 1k, 2k if someone gets obsessed

Default avatar.png Keegangb: ok yea doubt i'd need to worry then

BlaiseEbuth: Don't worry, be happy

MSmits: yeah, and this is without minifying

MSmits: you could always do that too

Default avatar.png Keegangb: yea true thats an easy step to add in

MSmits: anyways i am getting some sleep.

MSmits: gn!

Default avatar.png Keegangb: peace

Res-c: I have booboo

jacek: :scream:

Marchete: Oo

jacek: https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a07xD3v_700bwp.webp

Default avatar.png Keegangb: lmao

geekHarsh: lets code https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/18553589d9b8a42ee21d68f8b2a08fd16e6c6df


DuhBaconStrip: ok daddy

Default avatar.png pices: gi

Default avatar.png pices: hi

Default avatar.png pices: how do i learn c++

Default avatar.png Keegangb: google c++ on youtube

Default avatar.png pices: lmao

Default avatar.png Keegangb: err search

Default avatar.png pices: here

Default avatar.png pices: in games

Default avatar.png Keegangb: well this site cant really teach you a language

Default avatar.png Keegangb: just asks you to solve a variety of problems

Default avatar.png jojacorps: google en passant