GarethEddies: I wonder why people don't share their core more readily
PatrickMcGinnisII: Because CoC code is usually sloppy
PatrickMcGinnisII: here, interpret this
PatrickMcGinnisII: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/b629e980-236b-4561-90fd-3d7c2604cd6c
ANONYMOUS42: what language even is that
PatrickMcGinnisII: php
ANONYMOUS42: thinking php but averttostring doesn't show up on google
PatrickMcGinnisII: ahh, function to change verts to string
PatrickMcGinnisII: array of verts
PatrickMcGinnisII: blame euler
PatrickMcGinnisII: solving Sokoban
PatrickMcGinnisII: it's an endstate mapper
ANONYMOUS42: oh so it's your function
**PatrickMcGinnisII nods
PatrickMcGinnisII: i thought he wanted code, rofl ... so i just finished writing it...nutz huh
PatrickMcGinnisII: only gets run once
ANONYMOUS42: why? do the CG servers go down after running it??!
ANONYMOUS42: you must be hacker
PatrickMcGinnisII: funny. Sokoban puzzle is just a b*tch
PatrickMcGinnisII: searchtree requires a hashtable to prevent infinite loops
PatrickMcGinnisII: driving me insane
ANONYMOUS42: i had to do a similar puzzle to it on my second year in CS uni
PatrickMcGinnisII: so instead of a bunch of compares at eacj node to determine if search is done i just compute the valid final states, pretty standard
PatrickMcGinnisII: but it looks really funky
PatrickMcGinnisII: ;)
ANONYMOUS42: the difference was there was no blocks to move and whenever the player moved they had to go all the way until they hit a wall
ANONYMOUS42: oh i see
PatrickMcGinnisII: euler has a few puzzles that have a degree of insanity built in
PatrickMcGinnisII: glhf it's 1:46 am
ANONYMOUS42: good nigh
ANONYMOUS42: night
StevensGino: I have tried to use GA for Mars Lander, but end up using Heuristic
StevensGino: :(
jacek: try heuristic GA [solved]
LazyMammal: FrancoRoura connect-4 in Python, yes.
With bitboard minimax depth 3 is possible.
For depth 4 you need alpha-beta pruning.
jacek: with eval? or just to avoid loses and try wins
LazyMammal: I'm just using wins/losses so far.
LazyMammal: If depth reached or board full (haha) then I return tie.
jacek: and bitboard in python? w00t
Uljahn: bitboards in numpy are quite effective
kovi: hmm, it seems that connect4 top5-12 is pretty much the same
kovi: jacek you have nn? (vs. msmits books)
jacek: no. one of them is rust :/
jacek: self-trained nn. i dont train nn against specific opponents
kovi: sorry i meant that
kovi: just combined msmits in the same sentence
jacek: ah
LazyMammal: For me bitboard = built-in int. Python has arbitrary integers so I don't have to write my own.
LazyMammal: I use two integers as bitplanes. One for each player. Pretty fast. I wouldn't expect minimax to work very well if my board was a bit list :(
jacek: connect4 over doubled players this week
LazyMammal: It's nice to see the "Puzzle of the Week" actually draws people over
StevensGino: connect 4 already have 241 players
StevensGino: great
jrke: its becomming next D&B
StevensGino: yes
jacek: or othello, or yinsh...
jrke: volcanoes can also gain lot of players easy to start tough to master
StevensGino: :relaxed:
kovi: but none is as fun as dice duel 3d
jacek: but you need gpu for that ~
IgnacyJ: who doesnt have gpu???
jacek: decent* gpu
Ano.code[Love]: hello
emh: woow.. there are so many new multis that I haven't done
Chainman: heeeyyy
Chainman: how many?
Chainman: I'm new to this site I wouldn't know
emh: 29
emh: 29 new and 33 I've done
emh: I'm more motivated by the ones with leagues and bosses tho
geppoz: question: in MCTS, it make sense to do many rollouts in a single step to have a better evaluation?
geppoz: from the same state I mean
darkhorse64: less nodes explored but more accurate information on a node, that's a trade off
geppoz: and in this case, the n denominator counter for the UCB should be incremented by the numbers of rollouts, or by 1 in any case?
geppoz: I suppose if you score as the avg of rollouts, by 1, if you score as the sum of rollouts, then n
geppoz: but which is the correct one to keep balance score with other nodes?
darkhorse64: 1 rollout = 1 visit. If you do more rollouts, the UCT formula will take care of selecting the "interesting" nodes
MSmits: well you can also count 2 rollouts as 1 visit because you will just refit the exploration parameter
MSmits: exploration would have to be twice as big
MSmits: there's many ways to do these things
MSmits: I never get a lot of difference in bot performance from tweaking these things
MSmits: just as long as the values arent ridiculous
MSmits: (parameters)
MSmits: what is very important is a good eval, in case you're terminating the rollout early and evaluate. In that case parameters are very important
geppoz: I'm trying in connect4, so always to the end
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: btw, darkhorse and I usually just do a random playout from each child and backpropagate the total result
MSmits: though it doesnt always make a big difference for me, it's convenient
geppoz: but I mean, if I do 10 rollouts from a new expanded state, and I get a score of 7 (1=win -1=loss), I should backpropagate w=7 and n=10 ?
geppoz: or w=0.7 and n=1
darkhorse64: 7/10
MSmits: geppoz likely it doesnt matter
MSmits: as long as you fit exploration
MSmits: with the second example, exploration would be 10x higher probably
MSmits: the param i mean
darkhorse64: That's what I do. No brainer
MSmits: it's also what i do
MSmits: but it doesn't matter
MSmits: in our example, high branch nodes are explored more initially
MSmits: actually no
MSmits: they are explored less
MSmits: because you count it as a lot of visits
MSmits: if you average it, it counts as a single visit
darkhorse64: It depends if you choose a node by visits or by value
MSmits: i mean during selection
MSmits: you always select by both
darkhorse64: I mean the move to play
MSmits: yeah, but it doesnt really matter for that, just the way the exploration happens
MSmits: if you get to a node and the first time you immediately count it as 10 visits, you might not go there again if only 1 child was good
MSmits: but if you average the result, you might, and you might go to that good child
MSmits: in games where branching is mostly uniform it should not matter which way you choose
MSmits: like C4, bandas etc. but on a free move in uttt it's going to matter a lot
MSmits: anyways, I am using your method darkhorse64, so I guess that works fine.
geppoz: ok, let's go for it, thanks both ;)
darkhorse64: My point is adding averages is wrong.
darkhorse64: except when the branching is constant
darkhorse64: slowly but steadily overtaken by jacek :disappointed:
MSmits: ahh
MSmits: make a grimoire :)
MSmits: stop the nn menace
darkhorse64: afk
jacek:
Manchi_o6o7: if someone can help me why is this wrong
Manchi_o6o7: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/b470da37-e489-4cbf-b4e6-410078658a3d
Manchi_o6o7: g is a pointer
emh: I just published a writeup
emh: of my StC findings
emh: regarding the connected components / flood fill bitboards
emh: https://tech.io/playgrounds/58038/fast-connected-components-for-6x12-bitboard
emh: MSmits do you perchance have some time to review my article? since you're in education and all :D
emh: struct maybe you are interested as well? :)
olaf_surgut: some one know how to good hash function for two unsigned long longs?
DaNinja: Manchi_o6o7 try G graph = {1, {'A','B','C','D','E','F'}, NULL}, *g = &graph;
DaNinja: or use strcpy() to set g->vertex
LazyMammal: Manchi_o6o7
Same advice basically. You are trying to use "compile time" initialization with a "runtime" variable. You can't do that directly. Either set another way or use memory copy as DaNinja said.
emh: I try to avoid pointers as much as possible in C++
emh: they always make me segfault
emh: when I do use them I tend to use the pattern: BitboardComponentTable& bitboardComponentTable = *(new BitboardComponentTable());
emh: with no free :p
emh: but on singletons with lifetime the scope of the program
jacek: olaf_surgut i just use something like (prime_number1 * A) ^ (prine_number2 * B)
jacek: :B
olaf_surgut: kinda cheating, but i like it
Grandmaster-Loading: study hard
Manchi_o6o7: Guys, is it okey that I ask here some questions. Not neccessarily connected with CG problems?
DomiKo: yes
Manchi_o6o7: So, this is my question. I have some code for MST via Prims algorithms
Manchi_o6o7: Algorithm*
Manchi_o6o7: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/b66eadb9-7225-4ace-b2e6-7ff2f463797d
Manchi_o6o7: there you have also my question in the comments
DaNinja: I think allVisited() will return 1 the first time
Manchi_o6o7: so !allvisited will be 0
Manchi_o6o7: and the execution will stop?
Manchi_o6o7: or you mean !allvisited will be 1
Manchi_o6o7: wow, for some reason only the first element in the array is set to 1
Manchi_o6o7: not all the elements
Manchi_o6o7: isn't array[size]={1}; meaning that all elements are 1
DaNinja: use array<int> instead
Manchi_o6o7: isn't array[size]={1}; meaning that all elements are 1
DaNinja: arrays of local scope are left undefined
DaNinja: https://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/arrays/
Manchi_o6o7: thank you very much
darkhorse64: Not completely sure but in C++ {1} is an array of size 1, so you are initializing with a size 1 array
StevensGino: array[size]={x} is array of size "size"
MSmits: yes and I think you're setting the first value to x and the rest to 0?
MSmits: could be wrong
emh: hey MSmits
MSmits: hey emh
emh: did you see my article?
MSmits: which
emh: https://tech.io/playgrounds/58038/fast-connected-components-for-6x12-bitboard
MSmits: that's awesome. I did not see it, but I am for sure going to use it to get a stc bot at some point
emh: thank you. ok :)
MSmits: I will do something like that for uttt when i have time. Probably after 24th of june. That's the deadline for my internship report
emh: ahh I see. where are you interning?
emh: thought you are a physics teacher
MSmits: well, I am interning at my own job, only as CS teacher instead of physics teacher, same school :)
emh: ahh hehe :)
MSmits: but have to write a report or i wont finish my studies
emh: I see
MSmits: next year i am mostly CS teacher
emh: what's the report on?
MSmits: probably only 3 hrs a week physics teacher
MSmits: on being a CS teacher :)
MSmits: to get my degree
emh: hehe ok
StevensGino: yes @MSmits for your question
MSmits: have to use a bunch of quesionairres and such filled out by students to prove i dont suck :)
StevensGino: :D
MSmits: ahh ok StevensGino, wasnt 100% sure
MSmits: I usually just initialize to 0 with { 0 }
emh: and you are teaching in Netherlands ? but from Spain?
MSmits: wait what, did someone hack my flag
MSmits: nope still says Dutch :)
emh: ohh
MSmits: maybe confused with Marchete
emh: I must've been color blind last time I checked hehe
MSmits: he's from spain
emh: oh ok
emh: I like Amsterdam
MSmits: not at all offended, I like marchete :)
MSmits: happily confused with him
MSmits: meh amsterdam is too busy for me
MSmits: I like quieter places
emh: yeah for me too at this age, but I liked when I was younger
MSmits: ahh I see
emh: partying and clubbing, but now I don't do that anymore
MSmits: ahh, i never did
MSmits: I didnt like that sort of thing
emh: ok. I used to like club dancing
emh: also did couple dancing
emh: salsa, bachata and zouk
MSmits: I see
MSmits: the only time i do physical exercise is on a hometrainer or when i am trying to de-root my backyard
emh: hehe I also had a treadmill at home, but don't have it currently due to moving
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: I went to bigger house so finally have room for one
emh: ok. only thing I did today was walk to the gas shop to buy energy drinks, and write that article
MSmits: it was nice during covid
emh: should write my StC bot.. but don't feel like it
emh: more like bit fiddling hehe
MSmits: true, thats more fun
emh: writing the components but not the final result. kinda silly, but well.. someone else can use it. hehe
emh: I do have an old StC bot though, from years back
MSmits: yeah a bit weird
emh: it's in Gold at rank 115
emh: yeah
emh: my old bot uses some fancy tricks with doubly linked lists for the board. don't remember how well it performs though
MSmits: I see, doubly linked list doesnt sound performant, but hey if the algo is good...
emh: I think the point of the list was to do incremental flood fills
emh: on every change
emh: but I'm not sure how it worked now
emh: or if it was in that way
emh: I'm pretty sure the new algo is better though, so no need to go back and look
emh: with bitboards
Anequit: I'm suck
Anequit: stuck
StevensGino: on what ?
Anequit: The reverse mode on clash of code
StevensGino: I don't play much on coc
StevensGino: I don't even know what is reverse mode
Dark_bloom: i need help
sprkrd: emh What's StC?
StevensGino: ?
StevensGino: what is StC?
sprkrd: Dunno, that's why I'm asking :joy:
StevensGino: haha
sprkrd: It seems like a Multi, but right now the acronym doesn't ring a bell
DaNinja: Smash the Code
sprkrd: ah, I see
sprkrd: I don't know all the multis by heart :sweat_smile:
emh: yup it's Smash the Code :)
StevensGino: very cool multi
sprkrd: I've noticed that there haven't been many optimization competitions in the last months/years. When was the last one? Do you remember?
sprkrd: (question directed to no one in particular)
emh: well Euler has 4 that I didn't do yet
emh: haven't been so active lately though
StevensGino: I am quite new, and really want to know about this also
DaNinja: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization
sprkrd: oh, I mean with prizes and such
sprkrd: at least the t-shirt
sprkrd: Yeah yeah, I know where they are, it's just that I don't know when was the last "official" optimization contest was. Also some of them have been removed (like the bin packing one)
sprkrd: when the last official competition was*. God, I wrote that sentence like crap
emh: A*craft was optimization. from Oct 19 2018
emh: right?
emh: I have a number of contests listed after that, but don't remember which of them were optimization
emh: if any
sprkrd: I guess beating someone else is just more popular :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
emh: Spring Challenge 2021, Fall Challenge 2020, Ocean of Code, Unleash the Geek, Detektive Pikaptcha, A code of Ice and Fire, Code a la Mode, Xmas Rush, Klee Hackathon, A*Craft. in that order
sprkrd: Ah, Detective Pikaptcha
sprkrd: that's the last optimization contest
emh: ahh ok
sprkrd: Now it's just a puzzle
sprkrd: Didn't get to participate on that one
sprkrd: I don't know why they removed it from the optimization section
sprkrd: Same with Vox Codei
StevensGino: :9
emh: I barely submitted on Detective Pikaptcha
StevensGino: Unleash the Geek, don't have any problem related to it
StevensGino: seems removed
sprkrd: :(
sprkrd: but that was a bot contest right? It's probably harder to make that into a puzzle
StevensGino: yeah
jacek: is this it? https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/crystal-rush
sprkrd: tbh, I don't know what "unleash the geek" was about, so it could be?
StevensGino: thanks, so that's the game
StevensGino: I think that is the game
sprkrd: good good, so it seems we still have that one, fortunately
emh: anyone know if "noexcept" makes a difference in C++ optimization? I copy pasted some operator overloads that used this keyword
sprkrd: I don't think it makes any difference, specially with optimization flags
emh: ok I would suspect so
sprkrd: there's this question in stackoverflow in which the consensus is: "it might make a difference, but it probably won't and in any case it's more for the programmer than for the compiler. Don't use it tho": https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16104057/does-noexcept-improve-performance
emh: ahh ok thanks :)
a-zA-Z0-9: where can i speak to admins ?
MSmits: I think there is this canyon somewhere, where you can scream into it and then you hear an echo, which is like confirmation you got heard
Westicles: Please hold for my supervisor, Steve.
MSmits: but you can also ping someone here
MSmits: or maybe the forum
geppoz: MSmits have you way to check if this: 3,4,2,3,1,0,5,3,8,5,5,0 is now a forced loose for red?
darkhorse64: MCTS is not dead !
jacek: oh my
darkhorse64: more training days :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
MSmits: I can try geppoz
jacek: more rollouts?
MSmits: sec
darkhorse64: smarter exploration
MSmits: 3,4,2,3,1,0,5,3,8 is already forced loss for red geppoz
MSmits: 3,4,1 is the correct way to play for red
MSmits: 2 instead of 1 is the mistake
MSmits: oh wait, i may not have done it correctly, my board flips automatically sometimes (symmetry), let me recheck
MSmits: 2 is a mistake regardless
StevensGino: which game are you discussing?
darkhorse64: connect4
StevensGino: ah
StevensGino: I see
MSmits: nope i did it correctly
darkhorse64: submit your bot, join the party
MSmits: oh hey, what'd you do darkhorse64, got pushed?
MSmits: or new version?
darkhorse64: see PM
ja_fica: How do you verify if a play is win? I verify a 13 long integer array match. Is there a better approach using shifts?
StevensGino: already has 245 players, great
ja_fica: The more the better, more points to everyone :)
StevensGino: :D
darkhorse64: ja_fica: bitboarding is the way
ja_fica: Yes i use bitboarding
ja_fica: How else could I verify 13 integers as matchs xD
ja_fica: I was just wondering if using shifs in the bitboard could be better
darkhorse64: yes
darkhorse64: it is
ja_fica: I'm having doughts as shifting right or left would overflow the row when chekin horizontly
jacek: use masks then
darkhorse64: ^
KOTS98: leave blank spaces at the start and end
jacek: darkhorse64 ^ isnt mask :v
ja_fica: I could leave blanks but that would require a manual check for the exception on the corners
jacek: maybe not the best way but
jacek: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/8de734bb-712a-4cd2-bdbc-11c37a372ba4
ja_fica: right now I use (config[i] & playerstate) == config[i], where there are 13 combinations for each pair (row,col). But I feel this approach provokes cache misses as I read the memory from 63 different position
jacek: i see no need for additional masks2 and 3 or bottom etc.
MSmits: whats that monstrosity jacek ? :P
jacek: one of early versions
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: let me check how i do this. I dont remember
MSmits: well shifting has to be accompanied by masks yes. I don't verify win
MSmits: so cant tell you how thats done
ja_fica: You don't need to verify win?
MSmits: I guess, when you play a move, you check in all directions if there's a thingy
MSmits: no i generate winning moves for opponent when i play a move and if there are any, i lose
darkhorse64: MSmits bot is so smart it does not need to
MSmits: but i dont play the winning moves :P
MSmits: well not in the tree, obviously in the last turn
MSmits: hmm hey, let me see how i do that
ja_fica: Anyone anticipates losing move? I tried but it heavy reduced the rollouts at the beginning
MSmits: hmm i guess me and darkhorse64 do this
darkhorse64: ^
MSmits: it does reduce rollouts, but not if you do it efficiently
MSmits: we both use bitboards and simd for this
ja_fica: MSmits keeps reducing my points xD
MSmits: man what a crap submit =/
jacek: why so low
MSmits: it's bookless, but i was nr 1 with that every time before this
MSmits: darkhorse64 did some fixes so he might be stronger now
MSmits: and you could be, because NN
ja_fica: I'm not having fast enough rollouts, maybe because of UCT formula
ja_fica: 60k is the best at the beggining I can wihout verifying wins
MSmits: I wonder if i'll be 1 with latest book
ja_fica: How much are you achiving?
MSmits: 29k each child
MSmits: so thats 9x 29k
ja_fica: much higher
ja_fica: than me
MSmits: yes, but that's with simd and bitboards
MSmits: quickly goes up after turn 2 btw
ja_fica: I don't even know how to do it without bitboard xD. Using AVX complicates the code significantly for me. You store evey node you passs through or you do independent rollouts?
darkhorse64: I have 150-170K. Still trying to understand why so low
MSmits: maybe you have 29k rollouts too
MSmits: i am multiplying by 9, might not be correct
MSmits: sometimes this is 1 child only, because of forced moves
MSmits: early solves etc.
darkhorse64: right
darkhorse64: it looks good enough right now
jacek: and here i am with hmm.. 7k * 9 = 63k nodes?
MSmits: this is your NN version no ?
nulte: fix it
jacek: eeyup
MSmits: well then thats fine :p
ja_fica: You train your NN on python-keras?
darkhorse64: afk
jacek: nah, on my home-made NN thingy
ja_fica: 63 inputs entries?
jacek: 6 * 63 inputs
jacek: empty, red, blue. and x2 for side to move
MSmits: whats the 6 again?
MSmits: ohh ok
MSmits: still no flipping huh
MSmits: mmh my book codesize is 7618 according to code golf
ja_fica: Using a book sound better then a NN in performance
MSmits: this is the number that can be 100k?
MSmits: ja_fica it is only for simple games and only with a fixed start
Nerchio: and here is me with 10k rollouts
Nerchio: :innocent:
jacek: MSmits book + code
MSmits: ah yeah ofc
MSmits: code is not much after minify i think. c4 is among my smallest bots
MSmits: I used 33 million nodes to generate abook using 8% of codesize
MSmits: so.... half a billion to fill it... nearly?
MSmits: assuming its even linear
MSmits: https://www.codingame.com/replay/562280821 neat, a draw :)
MSmits: oh and I see another... we draw darkhorse64
ja_fica: I am amazed at how performant you algo is, it detects the end result at such early stage of the game
MSmits: not just me, tric trac is fast too
MSmits: and i assume darkhorse64 as well
MSmits: but he doesnt use messg to say
MSmits: mcts solver usually solves better than minimax in my experience.Though tric trac is quite good at it
kovi: i miss somthing here
ja_fica: I just the way you know you will lose against me xD
kovi: 300k rollout, but clearly behind top4
ja_fica: https://www.codingame.com/replay/562277348
MSmits: kovi it depends on your definition of rollout
ja_fica: I can only calculate it after a while .=
ja_fica: :)
MSmits: i think if you just count playouts i have near 200k
MSmits: but this is with loss avoidance. If yours is total random you're gonna have more
kovi: i c
i tried insta loss avoidance, but it was worse
MSmits: you mean you lost a lot of rollouts
MSmits: of course if you lose a lot it's gonna be worse, but if you figure out a way to do it efficiently with simd, it doesnt have to be
ja_fica: darkhourse vs MSmits, who will win xD
MSmits: i will but it's not a fair fight atm. I put book back in
ja_fica: I vote MSmits
MSmits: darkhorse64 uses no local training for his bot, so if that's your limitation, then he has the best bot I think
ja_fica: books are allowed so are NN
ja_fica: NN are better for more complex games that can build a pattern (even a fake one)
MSmits: sure and i think that is ok. But I try to make an exception for counterbooks. It's really too easy to beat nn's with them
jrke: MS so you have something trainned offline in C4 bot?
ja_fica: I have built many drl agents using python-keras, c++ is just too new for me to transfer the code
MSmits: just meta mcts, I ran 33 million games to get stats to hardcode an opening book
jrke: oh
MSmits: it's a sort of training
MSmits: very simple kind :)
Nerchio: is there a best opening MSmits
Nerchio: i need some help to boost my performance :joy:
MSmits: if you incorporate pie rule/steal then it's 1
MSmits: second from left or right
MSmits: so can be 7 as well
MSmits: steal 2, 3 and 4
MSmits: dont steal 0
Nerchio: so can i hardcode this :D
MSmits: sure why not
jrke: kaggle also have C4 arena but 6*7 board and also no prizes
Nerchio: 1st player random column 1or7, 2nd player steal 2,3,4
ja_fica: 6*7 is already solved for best play
MSmits: 6*7 is too simple. Pretty sure i would have already solved that by now
MSmits: Nerchio yeah, and you can decide to steal 1 or not, it doesnt matter, it's pretty balanced
jrke: but MS no cpp on kaggle
ja_fica: Pure minmax with fre oppening books is enough http://blog.gamesolver.org/
jrke: python and R on kaggle
MSmits: jrke ahh ok, but how much codesize?
ja_fica: *few
jrke: no code limit i think there file size limit
MSmits: lol easy then :)
ja_fica: 6*7 can be solved in 5.490 s without a opening book
Nerchio: so you have 100% win ratio with people outside of top4?
jrke: kaggle is for pure NN so no code issue atleas
MSmits: not 100% I think Nerchio, but pretty good
ja_fica: He lost against me :)
MSmits: yes, you have a non-standard opening ja_fica
jrke: i installed conda and i need to reinstall every package lol
ja_fica: Yes, you steal my piece
Nerchio: damn smits bot is bragging about win like 10 turns ahead
struct: 10
Nerchio: :joy:
struct: more like 30
MSmits: heh thats the solver, I like it because it helps me figure out bugs
MSmits: and other people as well
MSmits: well and it's bragging :P
Nerchio: btw
Nerchio: if you say steal 2,3,4 why not 5 and 6 too
MSmits: it's implied
MSmits: symmetry
Nerchio: ok
Nerchio: wanted to make sure :D
MSmits: hehe ok
MSmits: try yavalath, 61 moves to choose from :)
MSmits: only 9 unique
Nerchio: im done with MCTS in java for now
Nerchio: was a pain to get it to work
MSmits: it always is
MSmits: but once you got it working once it gets easy
MSmits: different language is another story
Nerchio: and i dont know how to speed it up more i am already using bitset
MSmits: converted my C# to c++ in two days, was not so bad
MSmits: bitset?
MSmits: oh, you cant do normal bitboard in java?
MSmits: because of that weird integer class?
Nerchio: i mean just long yeah
MSmits: or whatever that is
Nerchio: i misname bitset/bitboard sometimes i guess
MSmits: ohh ok
MSmits: if this is C4, then you need simd to speed further
struct: do you pre allocate memory nerchio?
struct: or is this not possible in java?
Nerchio: yeah
Nerchio: i create 300k states but idk how many get used like 100k probably
MSmits: in C# thats really hard somehow, think you need some tricks to preallocate
struct: is selection still a bottleneck?
jrke: does anyone know how to remove conda from default python version?
Nerchio: no struct
Nerchio: i will check what is but i think playouts now
Manchi_o6o7: guys, how can I count the number of stack frames for a function in C
ja_fica: You just also copy/paste the code from UTTT to c4?
Nerchio: https://i.imgur.com/lSpL1aq.png
ja_fica: I did and got rank 11 as soon as I submited xD
emh: hmm.. I am using 128 bit integers for my StC bitboards. do you think using 8 bits for rows instead of 6 bits would be faster? because of byte lookups instead of shifts?
emh: well I guess shifts are rather fast anyway, maybe even faster
MSmits: emh no idea, sounds like the kind of thing that needs to be tried
MSmits: is this the 128 bit thingy that doesnt work on msvc ?
struct: yes
emh: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9068631/dereferencing-a-pointer-vs-shifting-for-bytes
MSmits: i used that for HS
emh: HS?
struct: hypersonic
emh: ok
emh: "On any modern computer architecture, the shift operation will complete in a single CPU cycle."
MSmits: right
DomiKo: no from NN we got to optimizing C4?
DomiKo: so*
struct: grats on rank 1 btw
DomiKo: :grin:
MSmits: I think the best possible bot for C4, would be an optimized NN that uses about half the codesize and has the rest filled with opening book :)
DomiKo: yeah opening could be needed
jacek: so you need to breed top1 and top3 bots
MSmits: yeah
emh: struct did you catch my article?
emh: from today
struct: I saw, I will read it later
DomiKo: I like that my MCTS does random move for more than half rounds
emh: ok
struct: thanks for sharing it
emh: :)
MSmits: DomiKo which game?
DomiKo: C4
MSmits: wow, random for half of the game?
jacek: thats the point of mcts isnt it
DomiKo: not full random but really close
MSmits: oh ok
DomiKo: like every move get the same score
MSmits: that can mean many things
MSmits: sometimes all moves are nearly equally good
MSmits: (clobber)
DomiKo: that random early games mean nothing
MSmits: well there are some moves that cause early losses, so i am sure there must be some exceptions for you too
jrke: i got something very cool for C4 and bitboards today
jrke: https://github.com/PascalPons/connect4/blob/master/Position.hpp
MSmits: also, people seem to be able to find easily, that move 3 is best
jrke: everything coded in bitboards
Nerchio: we have bigger board though
DomiKo: that one codeed in 128 bits
DomiKo: soo not that great
emh: hmm.. if shifts are so fast why does commenting out two of them bring perf from 2.25M to 2.5M.. hmm.. puzzled
MSmits: usually not a good idea to spend too much time on that sort of thing :)
MSmits: been there
emh: yes I know.. should do the algorithm and win the game instead hehe
emh: but I just get hooked on microoptimization
jacek: premature optimization is the root of all evil
emh: true. little evil me ;)
Nerchio: is there any trick to finding out a list of moves available
Nerchio: :D
MSmits: from a bitboard?
Nerchio: yeah
MSmits: for C$?
MSmits: 4
MSmits: hmm
Nerchio: i do emptyspaces & topmask
Nerchio: which gives columns
jacek: there are only 512 possibilities
Nerchio: and then some shifts and other stuff to find out actual indexes
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/d274c7b5-adc8-4db1-82bb-878366f465f7
MSmits: this is what i use for initial solution
MSmits: combined is the sombined bitboard
MSmits: so you cant play there
MSmits: after this you increment the moves
Nerchio: jacek what do you mean only 512?
MSmits: so dont keep using this
MSmits: const uint64_t COLUMN = 0x40201008040201;
MSmits: need that
jacek: oh i just use moves from 0..8, looking at top row. the actual move is done via shift
Nerchio: and how do you know how much to shift?
jacek: lookup heights for each each column
Nerchio: i do moves with direct index state.playerChips = state.playerChips | (1L << cellIndex);
MSmits: i do too
Nerchio: MSmits thanks i will try to undestand it :D
jacek: since move generation/play/undo is not most consuming part of my code, i stopped caring :shrug:
MSmits: it just depends on how slow it is, at some point it becomes a problem, but C4 is fairly easy to sim and NN is always expensive
Nerchio: my move generation takes too long
MSmits: if you're going to some depth, keep your last move generation and increment each column by 1
MSmits: dont regenerate all moves each time
MSmits: mine isnt particularly fast either, but if you do it only once, it's fine
Nerchio: i do it every move atm but
Nerchio: i think i have an idea
Nerchio: i will just create a map of <cellIndex, columnLong> and i will be able to OR available moves with the columnLong
Nerchio: i think that sounds good?
MSmits: a map?
MSmits: maps are really slow
MSmits: use an array then
Nerchio: true in this case array is fine
MSmits: i use lookups a lot for boardgames, could be a fine method
MSmits: did not do a lot of experimentation for C4. i spent half a day coding it and then ran meta mcts for weeks :P
MSmits: hardest part is to get the draws right in the solver
MSmits: since they are so rare
Nerchio: im just happy it works atm :D
jacek: and you are top1 java :o
Nerchio: i dont think anyone really tried this with java though lol
Nerchio: :joy:
Nerchio: next step: NN with Java? :wink:
MSmits: If you can do simd in java, i doubt it would underperform much
MSmits: NN could wreck everyone in java probably
sprkrd: I don't think SIMD is possible in plain Java
sprkrd: Anyway, Java is not that bad in terms of performance, is not like a trained NN will take that much time for evaluation, regardless of the language
jrke: so many on CG are learning NN now
jrke: inspiration reBless peformance in SC21 ? :thinking:
sprkrd: They're jealous of recurse success in spring2021 :D
struct: I dont think jealous is the right word
kovi: inspired
jrke: its inspiration for me as well
sprkrd: let me be playful with my choice of words :upside_down:
Nerchio: hmm
Nerchio: im inspired and disheartened lol
Nerchio: that "normal" methods are trash compared to good NN
sprkrd: I on the other hand dream with toppling the mighty NNs with non-learning approaches
jrke: which is best NN game to start with ? according to you guys
kovi: search race
jacek: w00t
jrke: yeah i was also thinking SR to no opponent interaction just maximise yourself
MSmits: jrke if you want a 2 player game, oware is probably best
jrke: for SR trainning my average score is 0.2 after 450 matches is that bad
jrke: score i mean 0.2 checkpoints crossed per game
MSmits: lol
jrke: is that bad or really bad or worst?
MSmits: no idea, havent tried nn there
darkhorse64: does that mean that you never reach the end ?
struct: that gives like 1/2 checkpoints max per game?
struct: 1-2
jrke: struct exactly
jrke: gettin 0 or 1 and rarely 2
PatrickMcGinnisII: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkgoSOSGrx4
DomiKo: SR would be good, because then you can upload that to CSB too
DomiKo: my NN got 13K points fairly easily on SR
jrke: can you tell me that what could be the average score after 450 matches of training
DomiKo: depend of what training method you use
jrke: RL with pytorch
DomiKo: after 450 full races?
jrke: yes
jrke: and i think my inputs are wrong
DomiKo: I guess you should be easily compliting races
jrke: what you use as inputs?
DomiKo: right now same as pb in forum about CSB
DomiKo: https://forum.codingame.com/t/neural-network-ressources/1667/53?u=domiko
DomiKo: there is a dataset and you can train NN for that dataset
DomiKo: good to start with
jrke: why is he using randoms is that for explaination?
DomiKo: he explains how he made data
jrke: ah
VergilX: Hey I need help with a particular question. I tried many times, but my logic doesn't work in one case or another. Where can I ask for help?
jacek: you can ask here in the chat
dscientist: well, here
VergilX: But it's kind of difficult to explain
VergilX: You know, without knowing which question I'm doing
VergilX: https://www.codingame.com/training/medium/aneo
VergilX: This is what I'm doing
VergilX: I use Python 3,So basically, the logic I'm using here is I put a list for indicating the status of a light( True when it's green and False when it's red)
VergilX: I'll tell the rest, it'll take a while to type it out
dscientist: structs , "Discussions" or the forum?
VergilX: Yeah, but nobody has posted anything that can help. They just talk about the way you can correct the approximations(the puzzle has an approximation challenge). But I'm having a problem with the math
VergilX: I thought the logic I'm using is right, but it seems only a few test cases are right
dscientist: I mentioned structs but the struct know (the moderator)
dscientist: I think
MSmits: ☕
MSmits: this is funny, there's a cup of coffee in my opening book
MSmits: also this ⏳
VergilX: Is the moderator the guy who made the puzzle?
MSmits: hmm, it gets translated to a chat emote in some way when i paste it
darkhorse64: your book is typed by an army of :monkey:s
struct: which puzzle?
struct: ah I didnt made any puzzle
MSmits: darkhorse64 might as well be :)
VergilX:
https://www.codingame.com/training/medium/aneo
struct: so cant be me
struct: nope
struct: that is made by cg
dscientist: i dont know, but he knows as help him.
MSmits: jacek do your NN weights have funny pictures in them like my book?
jacek: only chinese characters
MSmits: weird
MSmits: you must use a different interval for unicode
dscientist: ah, he came
jacek: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/c2f311c5-edfc-4a65-8675-c686d6230f2e
jacek: 擵昫昨旈敽撺
jrke: my weights also having chinese
darkhorse64: paste an example, MSmits
MSmits: sec
MSmits: ᙯ՚ց✛➶ᠮ២⟏◸⏧➂Ώḋ⟀࢈யሡ⟌Ὺࣿց✛➶ᠮ២⟏◸⏧➂ᠯ③̗⛱➾Ԅ౷ᔦ⟏❗־࣋✑⟏ᕞ⟏⟆࠷࢈⁺⟈၏◻њ⟏⟆։⟏ԗᠯ⓿༳⟋ᾅ֫➑⟏╢ṛ⟏⟃⟏⚂ҧ❼ᦿ⟊ᇯ⟏␙ੑ⚁ᚿත⟏ܿ⟏
jrke: mine -
MSmits: look, beach thingy
MSmits: i start at the place 'a' + 95
MSmits: otherwise you hit some invalid stuff
darkhorse64: can we compare book size and weight size ? (aka what is your book weight?)
MSmits: how do you mean weight?
jrke: CG chat server crashesh for me when i paste and enter my weights
MSmits: i have 13124 moves in around 8k characters
MSmits: if that helps
darkhorse64: NN weights. A bad joke obviously
MSmits: owwww
MSmits: :P
jacek: :no_mouth:
olaf_surgut: does 97.2 % on mnist dataset is good result for handmade NN?
olaf_surgut: i see 99.8 best accuracy and think what to do better
jacek: training or test accuracy
olaf_surgut: test
jacek: handmade conv?
olaf_surgut: normal, without conv
jacek: then its very good
jacek: 99.8% is the best possible non-cheating
jacek: requires very good convnet, data augmentation, optimal parameters etc
olaf_surgut: so now it's time to play with it
Smelty: breh i cant make a 4 dimensional list somehow
jacek: just make 3 dimensional list and add time
Smelty: welp that what i tryin
Smelty: kinda
ddreams: just remember that time and the first three dimensions are connected relativistically
ddreams: hth
Smelty: hh
MSmits: also remember that the dimensions are curved
MSmits: so curve your list
Smelty: :eyes:
ddreams: nice to have such a helpful chat channel
Smelty: yep
Smelty: 2 dimensions for the board, 1 dimension for each possible change, and 1 dimension to remember to column
Smelty: *the
ddreams: what puzzle are you doing?
Smelty: connect 4 multiplayer
Smelty: trying out minimax
Kethryes: Is anyone in top10 using minmax, or is it only MCTS (or NN?)
DomiKo: only MCTS and NN100%
kovi: not sure about trictrac
DomiKo: hmmm
kovi: he tend to have sophisticated minmax (ab, iterativedeepening, etc)
Kethryes: Ok, so I have one of the best minmax around yay \o/
kovi: well done
Kethryes: (I really shoud try to switch to MCTS though :p)
Kethryes: How do you manage to use NN in coding game btw?
DomiKo: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/neural-network-ressources/1667
DomiKo: you can read about it here
Kethryes: great! Thanks :)
ash_rick: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1797737854fdee3ed5df9a26a54f55045e47f81
struct: #clash
Smelty: ^
MACKEYTH: I'm trying to implement a MCTS for the first time, on Coders of the Caribbean
MACKEYTH: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/coders-of-the-caribbean
MACKEYTH: Not sure how to select enemy actions between levels
MACKEYTH: Any advice?
MACKEYTH: Maybe point me at a resource/tutorial?
Smelty: well you can try plugging it into your algo from opp's perspective
Smelty: and select the promising looking ones
Smelty: i.e. the moves that are best for opponent
MACKEYTH: Since enemy/player actions are evaluated simultaneously, would you have to create a leaf node for every possible combination of actions from both sides?
Smelty: idk :p
MSmits: MACKEYTH you can do that and it's called DUCT
MSmits: decoupled uct
MSmits: you won't get much depth with this and require a lot of memory
MSmits: but it works
MACKEYTH: Yeah, it'd be something like 16-25 children per node
MSmits: depends on the game, 16-25 is actually not so bad
MSmits: but doesnt cotc have more than 2 players at some point?
MACKEYTH: DUCT info links?
MSmits: duct becomes hopeless then
RoboStac: yeah, in the next league you'll have 3 ships each
MSmits: best to read the forum thread
MACKEYTH: Yeah, up to 6 agents in the higher leagues. I'm still in Wood
RoboStac: so then that number becomes huge
MSmits: then duct is useless MACKEYTH
MSmits: you could try some form of sequential mcts, but maybe it's better not to use mcts at all
MACKEYTH: I have discovered that the manual movement commands work in Wood, they're just not provided in the statement
MSmits: oh, thats nice
MSmits: I dont know if i even got out of wood in that game
MACKEYTH: I'm finding it difficult to avoid mines and collisions using only MOVE x y for navigation
MACKEYTH: The forum thread linked from CotC's bot programming page has <10 posts. Is there a better thread for the game somewhere?
Smelty: rip
RoboStac: look for the contest one rather than the multi version
RoboStac: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/coders-of-the-caribbean-feedback-strategies/2746
MACKEYTH: That's much better, thx. Game's discussion link should go to that topic instead.
emh: I split my loop into two: memory access and processing. That was around half as slow. Probably due to no processing while waiting for memory.
emh: now I am thinking should I use two threads, one for memory access and one for processing. or coroutines. or something. or just revert it to how it was..
MACKEYTH: Has anyone done benchmark tests to see if a particular language has a processing speed advantage on CG?
icecream17: wow, my new bot finally beat my old bot... https://www.codingame.com/replay/562331625
MSmits: MACKEYTH c, c++ and rust are fastest
MSmits: which one wins depends on the exact use case and i would not be able to give you examples
MSmits: not all competitive coding on CG needs the fastest language though
MSmits: the more complicated a game is (more variables, strategy etc.), the more important a well written AI is compared to the choice of language
MSmits: for simple games, use fast language or accept being out of top 10
MSmits: but no worries, if you like a game, code in whatever language, go as high as you can. You can always convert to c++ later. I did, it's not that hard
MACKEYTH: I'm not really fluent in anything but Java
MSmits: i wasnt either, I wrote a C# bot for uttt, then converted to C++ in two days, this includes reading on what pointers are and all that sht
MSmits: these are two full time days thpugh, so 16 hrs
1415495: MSmits: not fun, no troll bait in your answer ;)
MSmits: it helps if you dont use all sorts of fancy stuff in your language
MSmits: sorry :)
1415495: it was the perfect question for one :)
MSmits: i had like 1 class in my C# bot and the rest was just loops, arrays and functions and such
MSmits: ah well, lurk in chat all day like jacek and you have tons of opportunity fenrir :)
1415495: lol
jacek: oO
1415495: but yeah, basically the less fancy stuff (in the perf critical path) the better for perf, and that include anything related to dynamic memory (so no or very few object creation in the critical path)
1415495: and in 'high level' language they are sometime well hidden unless you know the language well
MACKEYTH: I am getting the impression that the Wood leagues in CotC are unusually difficult compared to other bot programming games
HASCII: hello guys ü
MACKEYTH: HI
MSmits: MACKEYTH not sure about cotc, but wood leagues aren't all easy
MSmits: sometimes they take some work
MSmits: and sometimes just a few lines of code
Kethryes: Is there a good way to copy/paste all code from the CG interface at once ? When I select all and copy I get only a reduced version with "..." in the middle.
NomNick: ctrl+A ?
aCat: need to access directly from the CG relplay data?
Kethryes: I mean, I select all (no problem) but when I paste, I only get a small fraction of what is selected...
Kethryes: (using Firefox btw, maybe I should try with chrome...)
struct: you mean stderr stuff
struct: ?
Astrobytes: sounds like you're outputting too much to stderr with the ...
Kethryes: No just selecting my code to copy it to a text editor
Astrobytes: From the CG IDE?
Kethryes: Yeah
Astrobytes: That is not something I can reproduce I'm afraid
Boman: I'm not having an issue either
Astrobytes: Which text editor are you pasting into?
Kethryes: Ok, probably something with my Firefox then thx
Kethryes: anywhere really
Astrobytes: Very strange issue
Kethryes: Yeah it's weird, it's as if it copy a collapsed version of the code (but I can see everything uncollapsed on the IDE)
ja_fica: MSmits, you use UCT?
cw477: i need to get good at javascript, like now. coming from c#. any tups
cw477: tips
cw477: trying clash of code but i keep switching back to c#
LazyMammal: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/01364123-b204-4eb9-aa93-ec016e13ff37
LazyMammal: Too many words again. bah
cw477: LazyMammal well said man, that makes sense - will heed your advice!
LazyMammal: Cheers. I always try to follow the "rule of fun". If I can't motivate then I must be doing it wrong. Just need to change it up :D
cw477: Yep!! Definitely :)
1mmunity: amogud
IgnacyJ: who doesnt have gpu???
