Chat:World/2021-03-11

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Default avatar.png Manhar: cout<<"hello my love"

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: C# can be good for speed, if that's what you're most comfortable with

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: Python is one of the best, though, in both the speed and golf categories

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: I'm (re)learning a lot about python from doing these!

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: Python is literally executable psuedocode, it's just beautiful <3

Default avatar.png void_main_sucks: Nooo not using namespace std; > : (

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: bruh, void_main_sucks but you don't include a return statement in main

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: :kekw:

Default avatar.png void_main_sucks: forgot to lol i just use the starting code

Default avatar.png AGroatEatingGoat: hehe

Aa_Ku_Ttp: hello world

Default avatar.png CaptainKitten_322e: salom

Default avatar.png CaptainKitten_322e: kim bor. yaxshimisizlar?

Default avatar.png Godofdeath1: hello

Default avatar.png CaptainKitten_322e: qayerdansiz

Default avatar.png Redbladexix: theres is nothing better at a boring job than to train ur brain by playin some pod race :D

Default avatar.png void_main_sucks: sometimes i think some players are bots

Default avatar.png acuto: g0 g0 g0

derjack: oO

magaiti: do you sometimes think you are a bot too?

derjack: how many symmetries clobber has from starting position? just normal and rotate180?

MSmits: 28 moves

MSmits: 112/4

MSmits: simplest way is to just move each piece to the right and ignore down, left and up

MSmits: then you have all unique moves

derjack: im talking about board

derjack: if you rotate by 90, youll get white in left down corner. it seems not the same board anymore

MSmits: me too

MSmits: ah, then dont do the 90

MSmits: you can do 180

derjack: right now im doing 180

MSmits: you can also mirror diagonally

MSmits: I think

derjack: :tada:

derjack: so i may get 4 positions per move to label

MSmits: you may get 8

MSmits: the starting board has 4

MSmits: but maybe later boards have more

MSmits: you should just use the othello scheme

MSmits: its the same 8x8 squares

MSmits: so the same transformations apply. Just most of them aren't reachable

derjack: i think it may mess up the 'real' representation of game

derjack: because whites will be on entire different squares

derjack: maybe near endgames it doesnt matter

MSmits: yes they will when you transform them, but that doesnt mean the transformation is wrong

MSmits: it just means its not a reachable state

MSmits: this is true for every game, all states in the treespace are reachable, but not all states in the statespace are

MSmits: well almost every game I guess

MSmits: for example oware has many states where all pits have seeds

MSmits: but they are all unreachable except the start

MSmits: because after every move there is an empty pit

derjack: still gotta work on better inputs. fairly trained agent wins 15% vs mcts

darkhorse64: I am surprised that mcts works so well. tric gave up on ab and started his first mcts

derjack: mcts works better if you dont have any good eval

derjack: i wonder if clobber will become performant mcts-fest like uttt

darkhorse64: true but it turns out that all papers that I read were based on heuristics.

darkhorse64: However, these look quite difficult to bitboard. There will be a tradeoff between number of light/heavy rollouts

derjack: welp 10x10 is difficult to bitboard anyway

darkhorse64: In retrospect, 8x8 was a wise decision

derjack: until i solve it, yes

darkhorse64: I trust NN to bambozzle MCTS

MSmits: if you find the right heuristics for ab, you can also use them for a mcts with eval, or a jacekmax

MSmits: either way mcts could come out ahead

MSmits: or you could just keep the random rollout and use heuristics there

MSmits: depending on whether they are pruning heuristics or heavy rollout heuristics

MSmits: NN might not bamboozle mcts here depending on how important the math is. NN can simulate mathematical heuristics of course, but it doesnt do it more efficiently than the math itself.

MSmits: or you could combine the math with an NN... that would probably be best

YurkovAS: how to find 4 in row with pdep? for example: horizontal line from left to right. we check 3 left and check 3 right separately (i'm understand hot to do) or need only 1 time check?

MSmits: which game?

MSmits: yavalath or connect 4?

YurkovAS: connect4 or yavalath

YurkovAS: yes

MSmits: well its different

MSmits: i wouldnt use pdep/pext for connect 4 so...

MSmits: in yavalath what I do is this:

MSmits: in the first 1s, for each of the 61 hexes I generate a star pattern around it in bitform

MSmits: the start pattern goes 3 steps in each direction

MSmits: at max this will be 18 bits around it

MSmits: these 18 bits are all located somewhere on the 61 bit board

MSmits: Then I generate all possible combinations of these bits

MSmits: set/not set

MSmits: when I play a hex, i PEXT the star pattern

MSmits: and then do a lookup to see if its a win

MSmits: so the lookup handles all 6 directions at once

derjack: YurkovAS i used this to generate patterns https://github.com/skeeto/yavalath

YurkovAS: MSmits, derjack thanks!

MSmits: yeah, there's various levels of calculation vs lookup

MSmits: you can also do 3 lookups, one for each axis, then you use 6 bits, but have to do 3 PEXTs

MSmits: some players do this

MSmits: also YurkovAS, if you still want to know how to do it in connect 4. Use SIMD to check 4 directions at once

MSmits: so no lookups, no pext/pdep. Full calculation

darkhorse64: ^

MSmits: and if you're afraid of simd, just do it without simd first to get the bot working. That may motivate you to experiment with Simd after. It's not the hardest game to parallelize (othello is far harder)

YurkovAS: yes, easy rules, i'm try simd, thanks!

MSmits: np

darkhorse64: YurkovAS: write bitboarding for C4 first, do not jump straight to simd if you have no prior experience. Once your bitboarding code is OK, you will see more easily the parallel code patterns

MSmits: also lots of unit testing :)

MSmits: use your working normal win checking and then your simd version

MSmits: run them both for every move your bot makes, see if they are ever different and if so, produce an error

MSmits: I didn't actually do this, but I am an idiot and don't follow my own advice

MSmits: my method: Just do the simd thing, see the bot fail and stare at code for hours

darkhorse64: improved method: print the bit patterns and stare at them for a few minutes

MSmits: yeah

magaiti: staring intensely at machine code is the popularized method of debugging

MSmits: indeed

Default avatar.png yoyokid: Hi

MSmits: yoyo

AntiSquid: MSmits how do you define you vars for bitboarding ? typedef unsigned long long U64; ?

darkhorse64: uint64_t

MadKnight: yea there's a built-in type for that

AntiSquid: ok looking at the differences

darkhorse64: it works also for VS

AntiSquid: so much info on bitboards for chess specifically, but not in mood to do chess right now

MadKnight: they added chess multi to CG ?

AntiSquid: community made

MadKnight: Automaton2000 we gotta go rekt everyone in chess

Automaton2000: now that's a good thing

AntiSquid: well recurz made and community approved

MadKnight: well if recurz made it....

MadKnight: no it's still the same

AntiSquid: odd though he didn't submit anything

MadKnight: probably wasn't interested

MadKnight: too common and too much solved

MadKnight: so actually not a surprise

AntiSquid: ah so you already have the #1 bot in your mind but you need to write it

AntiSquid: as expected of MadAsAJazzer

AntiSquid: MadKnight *

MadKnight: wait wat?

MadKnight: what is that about

AntiSquid: referring to how you improve your bots when the time comes ...

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: hi guys

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: im new here

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: whats up

AntiSquid: hello new here ! welcome !

MadKnight: well i can probably analyze game strats better but #1 ?

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: thanks dude

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: #2

MadKnight: ez

AntiSquid: MadKnight it's just a joke, ignore me. And yes your exact words from another time, long forgotten now.

MadKnight: but #1 ?

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: ok

Default avatar.png LearnerDuck: #1

MadKnight: AntiSquid i mean i didn't understand the joke

MadKnight: still no idea where it is

derjack: :drum:

derjack: and this is chess960

derjack: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/chess

derjack: bitboarding is relatively easy. king checks and castlings are meh

AntiSquid: oh my D bot still wrecking noobs

derjack: oh your

Default avatar.png 6cdh: My bad English even can't understand the problem description.

derjack: oO

AntiSquid: which problam

derjack: and hes from usa. hmmm

AntiSquid: he migrated and didn't learn the language i guess

Default avatar.png zedd001: Hello everyone, I just want to ask where do you learn advanced programming?

AntiSquid: on your own? you can do it here too

Default avatar.png zedd001: Thanks for your sharing so much !

MadKnight: what is advanced programming zedd001 ?

MSmits: it's a natural follow-up on basic programming MadKnight

MadKnight: but to what degree?

MSmits: 7

dirty_code: 42

MadKnight: well that's easy just go finish 6

MadKnight: Automaton2000 imagine asking what goes before 7

Automaton2000: it's better to use a neural net

MSmits: anyone here that solved bender 4 100%?

MSmits: I have an approach I want to bounce off someone

MSmits: before i code it

AntiSquid: no but i think i have the solution figured out ? :P

MSmits: allright, so I want to do something like this:

MSmits: the boulders are walls, at least at first

MSmits: to make it easy

MSmits: you can change the map with the levers

MSmits: so i make a tree of map changes as opposed to a tree of movement

MSmits: the parent is the first state, the children are new mapstates that are reached by doing the toggles that are within reach

MSmits: (without actually crossing other toggles)

AntiSquid: ah i am thinking of a tree of moves, just keep looking till solution is found

MSmits: thats too expensive i think

MSmits: you get cycles and such

MSmits: my way only requires a tree with a few 1000 nodes at most

MSmits: then when you find a path, all you need to do is bfs from one node of the tree to the next

MSmits: if you know a toggle is reachable by bfs without crossing other toggles it doesnt really matter what the route

MSmits: is

AntiSquid: damn ... you make me want to look into it and solve it now lol, i am quite sure that in worst case scenario i can use some conditions to ignore some moves

MSmits: so basically i have a high level BFS where i chain toggles together instead of squared

AntiSquid: or break the path into multiple searches

MSmits: then a low level BFS to connect the toggles

MSmits: i do a floodfill to find out which toggles are reachable from a current toggle position

MSmits: (no matter the route used)

AntiSquid: my reason for thinking this will work is the ooc bot i have which is highly unoptimized and the amount of stuff it can look for, think this problem is less demanding

MSmits: oh I guess it is less demanding, but i want to expand it to also use boulders later, which are also map changes, like toggles. But they branch much much more

MSmits: this is the approach i used in hypersonic and it was very fast there

AntiSquid: i mean your way is basically same as breaking path into multiple ones to find otpimal one

MSmits: in hypersonic, my bomber dude is every where at once and only gains a position when he changes the map

MSmits: AntiSquid yes it is

AntiSquid: and actually you can have tree of map states where each state has trees of paths or whatever ugh ... then prune / ignore less promising trees

MSmits: imho the way to go for bender4 is basic solution no boulders -> add boulders to get better solutions -> add functions

MSmits: AntiSquid thats the thing, i dont generate the paths

MSmits: i only generate the changed map states

MSmits: i dont care how bender gets to the next spot, only that he can (found by floodfill)

MSmits: i only generate the path later, when fry is reached

MSmits: so it's really a simple tree, not a tree of trees

AntiSquid: ok how about finding all paths for all possible switch / bolder / stuff change and then finding out which combination of paths leads to solution ?

AntiSquid: i mean you precompute paths then look for combo

MSmits: that may work, but i dont see why you need a precomputed pat

MSmits: path

MSmits: maybe a precomputed floodfill for each map state

AntiSquid: less floodfills

AntiSquid: yes that's what i mean

MSmits: ah ok, well thats a neat optimization

MSmits: I want to try to at least solve it this weekend. I have some other stuff to do as well but hope to find some time

MSmits: only 41 people have solved it 100%

AntiSquid: is that your motivation ?

AntiSquid: low solver count ?

MSmits: also i told a student to do it

MSmits: without realizing how hard it was

AntiSquid: ah that changes everything

MSmits: so i kinda feel like i have to. And I think it is interesting

AntiSquid: idk, when i finally get around doing it i will start it with just first test case and then add rules for 2nd ... then 3rd etc .. and then a big rewrite at the end if needed :P

MSmits: yeah that often makes sense

MSmits: but i got an algorithm in mind i am sure works, so i want to try it as a whole

MSmits: then optimize it, your suggestion is good

MSmits: i did that in kutulu

MSmits: calculate all that stuff beforehand

AntiSquid: which suggestion ?

AntiSquid: ah

MSmits: I think your way is what i suggested to the student

MSmits: plot a direct path to the target

AntiSquid: i only said that because you said it takes too long, will try it headon without precomputation first probably :D

MSmits: if there are obstacles, make a direct path to the toggle you ned

MSmits: if there are obstacles to that, make a direct path to anothe toggle etc.

MSmits: until you get there

MSmits: thats another way to do it

MSmits: but i think he may get stuck on cyclic toggles, where you untoggle something important when moving to a different toggle

MSmits: sometimes they are in the way

AntiSquid: this one has functions

MSmits: that too, but thats like loops in code of the ring

AntiSquid: i think it was the function bits you can encode reason why i left it for later

MSmits: its just intended to make the solution shorter

AntiSquid: seems very time consuming

AntiSquid: 889 CP max, it was lower back then too, maybe 200 max

MSmits: I think i can do the simple solution in a few hrs, then i'd be rank 42 at least

MSmits: so it's worth it

MSmits: brb

AntiSquid: i stopped improving my fireworks / pengu for now, need full rewrite to progress so kinda aiming for lower hanging stuff instead

AntiSquid: ah right unoptimized solution shouldn't take that much, but with only rank 42 you get a drop in a bucket as CP

AntiSquid: top 10 min @ 2,243

MSmits: thats a lower limit, assuming the worst possible solution though

MSmits: i can easily adapt to find shorter solutions and get somewhat better rank

MSmits: if i include boulders (lots of coding) it should get a lot better

MSmits: then with functions, you can get any rank you want if you do it well enough

MSmits: probably the validators are known as well, so you might be able to make use of that

AntiSquid: "you can get any rank you want if you do it well enough"

ya just this . how much time will you spend :P

MSmits: till i get bored

AntiSquid: or are willing to spend

MSmits: i did code of the rings till top 20, which is quite good for a game with so many players

AntiSquid: not asking you superficially, just generally speaking

MSmits: ah yes

AntiSquid: maybe i should do another hex game ?

MSmits: do you like boardgames?

AntiSquid: on CG ? no

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: well coders of the carribean is not really a board game and is hex, but you probably did that already

AntiSquid: maybe i should at least try to do something on my own game

MSmits: yavalath is a boardgame so doesnt qualify then

MSmits: oh cool, did not know you were working on something

AntiSquid: pengu is different because you eliminate tiles and that changes a lot

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: but boardgame-wise it's just a bit mask

AntiSquid: also check the amount of hex / line

AntiSquid: they are not the same, that cause me some headaches

AntiSquid: figured something new out just to make it work :P

AntiSquid: initially thought i have to check if row is odd or even

MSmits: makes sense

AntiSquid: and i have the board in one array, so if i rewrite i should use uint64

MSmits: probably

AntiSquid: ideally .

MSmits: unless you do a minimax

MSmits: then do/undo works fine on any type of board

AntiSquid: no won't do that

MSmits: assuming you dont use transpositions, hashing complicated gamestates is expensive

MSmits: uint64_t helps a ton with hashing

AntiSquid: i have minmax on some games and i feel like i could have done much more with mcts

MSmits: i guess it depends on where your skill/knowledge lies

MSmits: i suck at minimax, compared to what i can do with mcts

Astrobytes: It depends. If minimax is performing well but you've run out of ideas, some kind of EPT MCTS might be better.

AntiSquid: even make some custom selection of my own, doesn't matter if it's weird

Astrobytes: You do have to invest some effort in an a/b to make it good

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: btw gotta go, class starts in 5 mins (as a student, not teacher)

MSmits: dont want to make teach mad :P

Astrobytes: FP?

MSmits: nope

MSmits: educational research

Astrobytes: Oh right

MSmits: FP is every other friday, next friday again

MSmits: ttyl!

Astrobytes: later

AntiSquid: see you next friday :P

Astrobytes: doesn't quite work as well as Tuesday or Thursday eh

Astrobytes: working on penguins?

AntiSquid: no

Astrobytes: yava?

AntiSquid: he was comparing coders of caribbean to pengus and i was saying it's not the same

AntiSquid: tiles keep getting removed that's major diff

Astrobytes: Oh, yeah, quite different indeed

Astrobytes: And penguins is a board game

AntiSquid: and really odd board shape for pengus

AntiSquid: you get 8 hex for odd 7 for even

AntiSquid: very important detail

Astrobytes: Only in your indexing

Astrobytes: I like penguins, good game. Must get back to it soon.

AntiSquid: maybe yinsh if i do another hex game, it looks weird and i don't really get it

derjack: are yo hex excited

Astrobytes: It's quite complicated compared to some others, but not to hard to get if you spend some time learning it. Haven't a clue for a good algo though

derjack: still need to make sim for it

Astrobytes: Yeah same

derjack: no boss so it cant become potw

Astrobytes: Not necessarily a bad thing - do you think explaining yinsh to every Tom, Dick and Harry on cg every 5 minutes for a week? :D

Astrobytes: *think you'd enjoy

Default avatar.png Redbladexix: looking for the most beginner friendly bot games. To advance on my questmap need another one to reach bronze league.

derjack: tryangle is potw and yet no one asks about it

derjack: coders strike back

Astrobytes: True... are many people playing it?

Astrobytes: TC I mean not CSB

derjack: 24 now. before it was less than 20

derjack: not much boost

derjack: :(

derjack: AutomatonNN where is the creator

AutomatonNN: with page in the top right

Astrobytes: That must be the Disappointment aspect.

AntiSquid: Redbladexix botters of the galaxy

AntiSquid: oh wait it asks for legend at the end

AntiSquid: probably CSB and you can't play any community games for this lol

AntiSquid: CSB easiest legend do that Redbladexix, rules change in gold

Default avatar.png Redbladexix: CSB already at bronze need another one for this quest

AntiSquid: what quest is it ?

Default avatar.png Redbladexix: reach bronze in 2 games

AntiSquid: oh you need later silver in 2 games

AntiSquid: hmmm

derjack: ultimate tic tac toe :?

AntiSquid: is it 3x3 until silver ?

derjack: is 3x3 only in wood

AntiSquid: in silver it's more complicated, more headaches

AntiSquid: do botters of the galaxy until silver should be very easy

Default avatar.png Redbladexix: ok, will try. thx for the help

AntiSquid: mean max for silver also very little coding actually

AntiSquid: and maybe code royale too? but can't remember anymore for sure

KelvinAndHubbles: tron bike till silver isn't too hard too

MrPizzadur: yes

MrPizzadur: Hi everyoone!

Default avatar.png Lucaslgd02: tg

MrPizzadur: Pas très sympa mec

Default avatar.png Taubeth: hi everyone, am I allowed to use snippets(or bigger parts) of code from stackoverflow during clash of code challenges?

MrPizzadur: yeno

BoatBuilder: you can, but it's less fun than doing all by yourself

dirty_code: is tychkord bot?

LiudasStaniulis: yes

Default avatar.png owlSaMuRaI: www

Butanium: dirty_code: you can check it on it's profile

KelvinAndHubbles: beat the boss 9/9 times and won 29/32 battles, yet in a wood league still says I'm worse then the boss :/

jacek: what game

KelvinAndHubbles: Botters of the Galaxy

KelvinAndHubbles: just in wood league 5

KelvinAndHubbles: have a basic bot that pretty much just buys damage and hits

KelvinAndHubbles: just kept submitting and eventually got it :D

AntiSquid: nice

ill-be-waiting-outside: hi

HunterEhrenfeld: hi

ill-be-waiting-outside: how are you

Saphine: #clash

ill-be-waiting-outside: thaks

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: did anyody ever had a technical assement fof job using codingame?

ill-be-waiting-outside: kinda

ill-be-waiting-outside: mad it was hard for me

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: I have to do 1, I got the link by email, it says there are 40 questions in the test and it takes on average 25min to do.

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: How can this be? It is for a junior position

ill-be-waiting-outside: idk

HunterEhrenfeld: youre have a technical assessment using this site? lol ask antisquid for answers lol

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: what/who is antisquid?

BlaiseEbuth: Why :no_entry_sign::squid: should know the answers ?

ill-be-waiting-outside: idk maybe he knows

BlaiseEbuth: Anyway, FrancoisLetourneau there is a lot of mcq in the 40, so taht is pretty quick.

BlaiseEbuth: *that

ill-be-waiting-outside: true

AntiSquid: no worries, i wouldn't tell you

AntiSquid: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/botters-of-the-galaxy

AntiSquid: best way to prepare FrancoisLetourneau

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: yeah that's what I thought

Default avatar.png FrancoisLetourneau: thanks!

BlaiseEbuth: Oo

jacek: ?

BlaiseEbuth: Sorry, that's your catch phrase.

ill-be-waiting-outside: how do you do ​Pythagorean Theorem it is hella hard

BlaiseEbuth: a²=b²+c²

jacek: you need it in tryangle catch?

AntiSquid: a^2 + b^2 = c^2

jacek: why xoring by 2?

AntiSquid: that's power

BlaiseEbuth: xoring is powa!

ill-be-waiting-outside: ik that

CryptoZenith: xoring vs power

ill-be-waiting-outside: but its something else and thats it thatnks

BlaiseEbuth: clear question -> clear answer

CryptoZenith: unclear question -> unclear answer

AntiSquid: why is clear question a node

CryptoZenith: what

CryptoZenith: what's the lightning symbol next to your name

CryptoZenith: oh wait

CryptoZenith: nevermind

AntiSquid: pokeball ?

CryptoZenith: horseshoe?

CryptoZenith: i have a small monitor

AntiSquid: woah

BlaiseEbuth: I choose you AntiSquid!

CryptoZenith: takes up like 3 pixels

BlaiseEbuth: It totaly can be a pokemon name.

CryptoZenith: anti-squid

CryptoZenith: like a squid, but not

AntiSquid: https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/03/02/motorcycle-squid-on-the-rise-join-the-anti-squid-movement/

CryptoZenith: whoa anitsquid is 11th on the global leaderboard

CryptoZenith: *anti

BlaiseEbuth: tentacles...

AntiSquid: "The true motorcyclist – the Anti-Squid – examines these crashes, and attempts to fix things."

AntiSquid: quote from article linked

ill-be-waiting-outside: cool

jrke: is there any way i can identify traps in crystal crush?

JLukeSkywalker: i dont think so

JLukeSkywalker: entityType: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/63c86544-ede3-4d3b-a7af-7228cd3e0b5b

JLukeSkywalker: that is whats given, in addition to just ore values

ET_BB-8: if the enemy stops at the base for 1 turn it could mean the have picked up a trap

darkhorse64: the whole game revolves around traps and efficient farming

jrke: ET_BB-8 what if he picked radar not trap?

ET_BB-8: thats the problem with that system

ET_BB-8: but its better not digging up a radar position than digging up a trap position

ET_BB-8: unless your going to kamikaze

jacek: is that utg?

BlaiseEbuth: ya

BlaiseEbuth: name changed for the multi

darkhorse64: or if you dig a potential trap, make sure you will destroy one opponent bot at the same time

jacek: or delete your account

BlaiseEbuth: Oo

ET_BB-8: in later leagues some players wait at the base for 1 turn also to throw off those systems

jacek: it was fun to watch the replays

BlaiseEbuth: Advanced kamikaze strategy was my greatest idea during the contest...

darkhorse64: even better, they stop at several holes to puzzle you when trying to guess traps

AntiSquid: have to fix that bot at some point . was close to legend

AntiSquid: oh i dropped ...

AntiSquid: now free pushes ?

AntiSquid: no*

ill-be-waiting-outside: cool

JohnnyHotBody: Hello

JLukeSkywalker: hello

JohnnyHotBody: how u doin

ill-be-waiting-outside: good

JLukeSkywalker: decent

JohnnyHotBody: cool

JLukeSkywalker: stuck at work, watching the other cyclists out the window on the road

JLukeSkywalker: wishing i could take the day off

ill-be-waiting-outside: me too

JohnnyHotBody: Same

JLukeSkywalker: at least this website counts as work some days

JohnnyHotBody: Well I got to go

JohnnyHotBody: Bye

ill-be-waiting-outside: ok

SoumyaCodes2020: hi

ill-be-waiting-outside: hi

Lachrymosa: hi

ill-be-waiting-outside: wyd

Lachrymosa: Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock

ill-be-waiting-outside: holy shit i love that game

jacek: are you winning son

Lachrymosa: Theres a nifty little puzzle in easy for it

Lachrymosa: I'm close

ill-be-waiting-outside: really

ill-be-waiting-outside: i have a test to do

Default avatar.png Wilster: -=W=-

ill-be-waiting-outside: its more like T-T

jacek: UwU

ill-be-waiting-outside: yep

JLukeSkywalker: lol, just demolished the wood leaderboard in crystal rush

KelvinAndHubbles: is it possible to solve the puzzle of the week?

jacek: you need to advance the league

JLukeSkywalker: darn, almost made it to silver completely ignoring the existance of emps

Westicles: Huh, somehow my cout << "0" << endl; advanced to wood1 in connect4

JLukeSkywalker: yeah, i think he is working on fixing the boss

jacek: hm?

JLukeSkywalker: think it might have been darkhorse, said he was trying to fix the connect 4 wood bot

JLukeSkywalker: the current one is really bad

jacek: blame the approvers

darkhorse64: No, I did not write the boss

JLukeSkywalker: ik, but the other day thought you said you were writing a new one

Astrobytes: I think that was a joke

darkhorse64: It was a half serious joke

JLukeSkywalker: maybe was a joke, but the boss is a joke

JLukeSkywalker: someone does need to fix it

struct: connect 4 is just depth 3 minimax

struct: iirc

struct: At least is what I remember from when I saw the code

Astrobytes: It's a what, depth 2?

Astrobytes: Oh 3

JLukeSkywalker: and people are beating it with random

JLukeSkywalker: maybe there is a bug in it

Astrobytes: I can't remember. I remember it looked really inefficient.

darkhorse64: tbh, I did not checked it

Astrobytes: If it's that bad then I personally nominate darkhorse64 to write a new one :P

darkhorse64: You know, it's hard to nerf a bot

Astrobytes: This is true. Just copypaste your alphabeta from Clobber

Astrobytes: (not the eval perhaps :P )

darkhorse64: I could also copypaste euler's C# bot

Astrobytes: Is that any good? I'm sure I beat that by hand

ZarthaxX: rude

darkhorse64: MCTS with a solver.

Astrobytes: Yeah, but it was weak iirc

Astrobytes: ZarthaxXamaton

darkhorse64: If it beats cout << "0" and random, it's OK

ZarthaxX: Astronaut

ZarthaxX: howdy

Default avatar.png imathwee: oi oi lads

Astrobytes: darkhorse64: that's fair

Astrobytes: How's it going ZarthaxX?

Default avatar.png imathwee: how you gunna find the highest rated playa here

MadKnight: js even crashes when u start a number with 0

ZarthaxX: all gud

MadKnight: Automaton2000 imagine crashing from x=025;

Automaton2000: i'm pretty sure you can do all that stuff

ZarthaxX: trying to learn new stuff, was cleaning the house until now

ZarthaxX: you astrobyto

MadKnight: hey ZarthaxX

Astrobytes: Cleaning the house is new Zartho? :P Yeah, same shit different day here lol

ZarthaxX: hey mado

ZarthaxX: Astrobytes NO LOL i just said 2 different things

Astrobytes: ZarthaxX I know! :P

ZarthaxX: *today i learned what a broom is guys!*

Astrobytes: #winning

ZarthaxX: so same shit eh

ZarthaxX: fair fair

Astrobytes: Yep

ZarthaxX: what's up with that clobbeer game?

Astrobytes: Not my bot anyway. It's last :D

Astrobytes: Interesting game.

ZarthaxX: real or invented

jacek: whats the difference

jacek: all games are invented

ZarthaxX: wanted to know if it was a port

darkhorse64: It is

Astrobytes: Yeah, abstract board game, been around for 20 years

ZarthaxX: aight ty guys

ZarthaxX: also looks super simple, nice

Astrobytes: Yeah, very easy sim.

ZarthaxX: i bet right

Astrobytes: The rest however...

Default avatar.png Tuo: looks can be desieving :D

Default avatar.png Tuo: my python bot was so slow it was useless

Default avatar.png Tuo: and c++ is hard

ZarthaxX: also, random question but where is toad?

ZarthaxX: has he been here the past couple days?

Astrobytes: Long story best saved for another day ZarthaxX

ZarthaxX: bad or nah?

Astrobytes: Well, he's fine but it's a crappy thing.

ZarthaxX: can you tell me another day?

ZarthaxX: ;(

Astrobytes: Yes. Not today.

ZarthaxX: ty

ZarthaxX: hope he is doing well

Astrobytes: All good afaik

ZarthaxX: and another random thing, i got banana plants in my house, and the last one had 110 bananas approximately

ZarthaxX: 27kg of bananas

Astrobytes: Dude

darkhorse64: He is OK but he has stepped down for a while

ZarthaxX: aight aight , good then

Astrobytes: 27 KILOS OF BANANAS

Astrobytes: GROWN IN YOUR HOUSE

Astrobytes: Wtf am I doing in this country

ZarthaxX: LOL

ZarthaxX: it's hard to keep them like.. not rotten

ZarthaxX: eating all of them before they rot is hard, we freeze them but it's still a fuckton

Default avatar.png Wilster: you can make banana n.ut bread with ripe ones

Astrobytes: Yeah, make some banana pureé and stuff, less space when you freeze it

Default avatar.png Wilster: banana ice cream

Astrobytes: And sell the skins to vegans, they like that kind of thing.

Astrobytes: Or throw them in front of unsuspecting people and film the cartoon slip

jacek: bananas with coke?

Astrobytes: (the last two were jokes)

jacek: its so hard to slip on banana

ZarthaxX: oh we never tried the banana bread one, nice

ZarthaxX: neither the pureé, we did the ice cream one

ZarthaxX: Astrobytes LOL the skins are thrown but to make compost

Astrobytes: Ah that's cool

Astrobytes: Can you make some kind of alcohol from bananas? Or at least use as a flavouring.

Astrobytes: You can make banana wine and beer apparently.

Astrobytes: And therefore banana brandy

Astrobytes: Stop this computer nonsense and open a brewery + distillery

ZarthaxX: :rofl:

Astrobytes: :grin:

ZarthaxX: isnt it kind of hard to achieve a good wine/beer?

Astrobytes: Well, yeah. Takes practice. You have many bananas.

ZarthaxX: and who will be the victims that try it?

Astrobytes: :P

ZarthaxX: family? :D

Astrobytes: Ofc!

ZarthaxX: *and that's how you poison all your beloved ones*

ZarthaxX: i think the ice cream one is safer hehe

Astrobytes: Start with beer and wines, don't try and distill anything if you want to keep your eyesight/loved ones

ZarthaxX: i bought a chocolate licour in the holidays, now that i reemember

Default avatar.png DaciaN0: are you pros?

ZarthaxX: good one

ZarthaxX: okey Astrobytes :rofl:

ZarthaxX: bananas is the future

Astrobytes: Sell them to Elon Musk

ZarthaxX: DaciaN0 noob here

ZarthaxX: Astrobytes i will make him tweet about my bananas

ZarthaxX: easy money

ZarthaxX: bananastocks raising

Astrobytes: BananaX

ZarthaxX: gotta find a good cryptocoin name

Astrobytes: SparthanaxX

ZarthaxX: :rofl: wtf

Astrobytes: ooh wait: BanX

ZarthaxX: nailed it :O

Astrobytes: Yeah, that's actually decent lol

ZarthaxX: ye :P

Astrobytes: Then when you're uber-rich you can get a gf called Dirt or something like him

Astrobytes: (Elon's gf is called Grimes, grime = dirt, if anyone needed an explanation)

Astrobytes: btw I am not beating the boss in Connect4 with random

ZarthaxX: oh i didnt get it at first lol

ZarthaxX: deception

Astrobytes: Maybe I random wrong

ZarthaxX: change your distribution

jacek: you can beat the boss if you write only one column

Astrobytes: really? lmao

ZarthaxX: astro :sweat:

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I have been looking at bitboard stuff for connect4 and all of them refer to 6*7 board

jacek: 63 bits still fits

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I would be nice if there was a site with basic implementation for different games

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: yes

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: but i have to do it myself

Astrobytes: Yeah, all the stuff you see about using the spare bits for this or that you can just do with some masks

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I am thinking in this direction

Astrobytes: Don't overthink it

Astrobytes: It's just the same as every other bitboard game

Astrobytes: *bitboardable

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I lack experience

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I guess at some point it becomes relatively easy

Astrobytes: Some stuff yeah, but it always requires a degree of care!

Default avatar.png Ordonnateur: We can register to the codinggame spring challenge 2021 up to when ? up to last minute ?

jacek: yes

Astrobytes: Up to any point throughout the challenge Ordonnateur

Default avatar.png Ordonnateur: ok thank you :)

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: the other thing about bitboards is that once you try them it seems there is no way back

Default avatar.png Ordonnateur: (I will register later so, better than forgetting about it then being sad having a 0score on my history ;p)

Astrobytes: :)

Astrobytes: Yes UnnamedCodinGamer, for some games to be competitive it's really a requirement anyway

jacek: its easier for me to bitboard stuff than to use good old 2d array nowadays

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: jacek yes, especially move generation

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: in terms of performance I was actually surprised to see that in breakthrough my array implementation was a bit faster than the first bitboard implementation

KiwiTae: ZarthaxX o/

jacek: move generation is one thing. eval stuff like counting is also fast

ZarthaxX: hey kiwo :*

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: then I implemented the move extraction using ffsl and it got 2 times faster

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: jacek, that too yes

jacek: ffsl/

jacek: hmm looks like ctz or clz

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: yes, they are similar

ZarthaxX: first set bit for long

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I did not know about them then

struct: Returns one plus the index of the least significant 1-bit of x, or if x is zero, returns zero.

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: struct, exactly

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: in terms of performance i did not find it worse than __builtin_ctzl, but I may be wrong

Astrobytes: oh nice

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: actually darkhorse64 and you Astrobytes suggested that

jacek: probably came from msmits

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: :)

MSmits: nope

jacek: oO

MSmits: always use ctz

Astrobytes: ffsl? No that's a new one on me

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I meant move extraction, not the particular method

Astrobytes: Ohhh right, gotcha

MSmits: yeah i use ctz/ctzl for move extraction

MSmits: ffsl also works

Astrobytes: Never used ffsl

MSmits: probably on compilation it works out to be equally fast somehow, compilers are smart

Astrobytes: Any particular advantage to it?

MSmits: i think it wont break on 0

MSmits: clz has undefined behavior on 0, not sure about ctz

jacek: well code is written it will never reach 0

MSmits: exactly

MSmits: thats why i dont bother with it

ZarthaxX: those instructions compile to a single assembly one

MSmits: i like my stuff to break when i screw up

Astrobytes: I guess could be useful in some situations but I'll stick with ctz/clz

Astrobytes: on here

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: it is nice if it breaks, and tells you so

MSmits: c++ telling you whats wrong?

Astrobytes: What sorcery is this????

Astrobytes: You must find out where you were wrong yourself and hit yourself with a c++ branch 100 times.

ZarthaxX: c++ branch LOL

Default avatar.png Jake_Dubz: hi guys i am new to coding:grin:

Astrobytes: :P

MSmits: arent we all, to some extent

MSmits: hi

ZarthaxX: hi new to coding :grin:

Astrobytes: Hi new to coding, we are not new to coding

ZarthaxX: worst mod :P

Astrobytes: I am not!

Astrobytes: AntiSquid is way worse, and don't forget about BlaiseEbuth!

darkhorse64: defensive programming is a very bad practice performance wise

ZarthaxX: :rofl:

ZarthaxX: defensive? what

Default avatar.png Jake_Dubz: i am new to coding, probably not you, but meeee

Astrobytes: Defensive in #debug

darkhorse64: checking always whether assumptions are wrong

ZarthaxX: ah ye branching is super bad :D

MSmits: I start doing that when i cant find a bug after X hours of staring

AntiSquid: Astrobytes ?

MSmits: i drop in like 10 conditional cerr statements and thats usually enough

Astrobytes: asserts and if (I'm fking up here) go in #debug mode

darkhorse64: that's debugging. It's different

ZarthaxX: astro knows :D

MSmits: well it's all i do

MSmits: never used an assert

Astrobytes: darkhorse64: the point being that's not the code you use in your main program

ZarthaxX: use asserts D:

darkhorse64: I know

Astrobytes: You never used assert MSmits?!

MSmits: nope

ZarthaxX: this guy is crazy

ZarthaxX: someone hold him

**ZarthaxX brings the c++ branch

AntiSquid: why use asserts? you should know what your program does

**Astrobytes holds MSmits and lets ZarthaxX beat him with the C++ branch

MSmits: I dont have any strong reason not to us eit, i just never tried

MSmits: lots of things i never did with c++

**ZarthaxX starts beating Msmits with the branch nonstop

MSmits: i never made a file with .h at the end

Astrobytes: AntiSquid: we're only hooman

ZarthaxX: MSmits :I

ZarthaxX: *shit*

jacek: oO

Astrobytes: Oo

AntiSquid: MSmits if you already have some efficient way to to debug you probably still don't need it

MSmits: possibly i could save some time if i did use it, i dunno

MSmits: I am very noob with C++

AntiSquid: oh this again ...

Astrobytes: It's in c too

ZarthaxX: lmao

Astrobytes: Honestly it's a good sanity check

MSmits: it's just a very tiny part of c++ i use, 1 file solutions with very few features from c++

ZarthaxX: im tired of doing this already astro

AntiSquid: remember that c++ meme with a guy learning c++? and then discovering immortality elixir, then time travel and then going into the past to kill his former self before he could waste time on learning all of c++ ? MSmits

**ZarthaxX gives c++ branch to astro

MSmits: nope, dont know that meme

AntiSquid: ya

**Astrobytes beats the **** out of MSmits to probably no real positive outcome

MSmits: torture won't make me code better :P

Astrobytes: :D

AntiSquid: https://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/aKxWNeb/akm0d6Nr_700w_0.jpg MSmits

ZarthaxX: GIVE IT TO HIM ASTRO, YE

ZarthaxX: MSmits we will see

**ZarthaxX brings the c branch

MSmits: I think this is true for any language btw. Euler is horrified about how i use C# also

Astrobytes: AntiSquid: but that's a meme about the 'teach yourself C++ in 21 days' books

AntiSquid: same end result

ZarthaxX: LOL squido

ZarthaxX: MSmits how do you use it?

ZarthaxX: i get it tho, the use you give to those lnaguages is purely for bots

MSmits: like a c++ without segmentation faults, very simply, using very few features

ZarthaxX: doesnt require you to know a lot

Astrobytes: Let's just say, generics don't get a look-in

ZarthaxX: thought so haha

ZarthaxX: linq, what is that? :D

MSmits: yeah i barely ever use linq

MSmits: when i do, its because i copied some code from somewhere

MSmits: but doing FP class, so maybe i'll start using it more

Astrobytes: And you declare strange lists

MSmits: how do you mean strange?

MSmits: it just normal lists

MSmits: objects, ints etc.

MSmits: but generally I do it the same way as in C++ and just declare arrays that are large enough

jacek: weird names

Astrobytes: List<T>

AntiSquid: well higher contest rank results means either linq is bad or best to focus on what matters, not how ugly the code is

MSmits: linq is good for when coding speed matters and performance does no

MSmits: t

MSmits: would be great in code a la mode for example

Astrobytes: List<T> is what you don't use

MSmits: i dont, no

MSmits: i just know the type of the list

jacek: :scream:

Astrobytes: You miss out on the whole power of generics

MSmits: i dont template in c++ either

MSmits: yep

Astrobytes: Heathen.

MSmits: its not like i dont understand it, i just dont have practice with it

struct: in cg it doesnt have much use tbh

MSmits: these bots are all fairly short and at some point it just works

AntiSquid: wait c++ template programming is like a programming language of its own

Astrobytes: Practice! It can only improve your skills ;)

Astrobytes: AntiSquid: C++ templates don't have to mean full on template metaprogramming insanity

therealbeef: compile time limitations mostly prevent any serious template meta programming

therealbeef: (ive tried)

Astrobytes: Masochist!

therealbeef: i'd be unfair anyway

MSmits: why is it unfair?

AntiSquid: you take a step in that direction, why would you ever stop

MSmits: i dont see how i would get more performance using templates?

therealbeef: you can do calculations at compile time, which other languages cant do

MSmits: hmm

MSmits: I see

MSmits: but in many cases that doesnt matter

Astrobytes: because you can simply template functions and simple things without going nuts AntiSquid

therealbeef: i calculated part of the uttt eval function at compile time

MSmits: the first 1 second in most bots is already overkill

Astrobytes: There is templates and then there is template metaprogramming

AntiSquid: i know

MSmits: because you need calculation time later on in the game, when moves have been made, not in the first second

MSmits: exception is games where you use the full 1 second to precalculate endgame db or something

Astrobytes: <insert time banking comment here>

AntiSquid: 1 second to decode an entire book of most important moves and positions, think about it

MSmits: actually in oware i dont decode, i calculate

MSmits: i decode the opening book though

MSmits: 9 seed db in 500 ms or so and a little bit of time for the 2-3k moves from opening book

Default avatar.png Tuo: uint64_t f = 1 << i; such a simple line of code, the problem must be somewhere else

AntiSquid: does this count as obfuscation ? it does right?

Default avatar.png Tuo: hours of life wasted :(

MSmits: what does?

jacek: Tuo 1ULL << i

darkhorse64: tuo 1ULL << i

Astrobytes: Tuo: 1ULL << i

AntiSquid: books MSmits

Default avatar.png Tuo: y :D

AntiSquid: tuo : 1ULL << i

MSmits: my oware book is very readable atm

Astrobytes: :rofl:

MSmits: havent needed to compress

AntiSquid: ah k

MSmits: {5{5{1{2{4{2{2 ... etc

Default avatar.png Tuo: i figured it out in the end, it just took way too long

MSmits: it's a tree

AntiSquid: what are you working on tuo

MSmits: start with move 5, on move 5 from opponent, you play 1 etc.

Astrobytes: Tuo: we've all been there

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: i still do that

Astrobytes: I would bet that tuo is working on Clobber

MSmits: it's really annoying

MSmits: VS warns me though

darkhorse64: Read: we all made the mistake

MSmits: get a green squiggle

Default avatar.png Tuo: y globber but im not that far :S

MSmits: clobber is a nice game to start doing bitboards

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I wasted 10 minutes on it the other day

MSmits: i wasted hours on this before

MSmits: you're lucky UnnamedCodinGamer

CryptoZenith: its not wasting if you enjoyed it

MSmits: but then again, i dont assert so..

Astrobytes: MSmits :P

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I was trying to print a bitboard and it printed half of it

MSmits: ah yeah, typical

MSmits: thats sometimes how i find otu

Astrobytes: lol, there should be a list of common bitboard issues

darkhorse64: LeRenard joins the party

Astrobytes: Yay nice one

MSmits: i sometimes shift a 32 bit 32 places to the left and then or it to a 64 bit

MSmits: thats a similar error

MSmits: does nothing

ZarthaxX: what party¡

MSmits: fox party ?

darkhorse64: Top 4 Clobber in 0.5

AntiSquid: they call clobber a party

MSmits: Sweeper, no swiping!

MSmits: :fox:

jacek: clob clob clopper

ZarthaxX: hell of a party brothers

Astrobytes: I think LeRenard just needs another submit, boss is probably boosted. His game history looks good

LeRenard: I try a second submit with a updated weight

Astrobytes: Looks a lot stronger LeRenard

jacek: alpha beta?

MSmits: a boardgame leaderboard is not the same without LeRenard on it

Astrobytes: ^

LeRenard: MCTS

MSmits: cool, you usually do ab right?

LeRenard: First good result with MCTS

MSmits: ahh ok

LeRenard: I try a MCTS on UTT but with bad result

MSmits: your ab bots tend to be pretty strong. Yavalath one is hard to beat

Astrobytes: It really seems MCTSy this game

MSmits: LeRenard your uttt problem is probably optimization + lack of heuristics. Add some teccles magic

LeRenard: But I copy paste may UTT MCTS in Clobber.

LeRenard: Yes I could retry on UTT

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: what is teccles?

MSmits: play 0 on empty 0 board

MSmits: 1 on empty 1 board

MSmits: 2 on empty 2 board

MSmits: etc.

MSmits: send opponent to same board

BlaiseEbuth: Oh. I was pinged an hour ago...

darkhorse64: It's a Clobber chat only. Where is your bot ?

Astrobytes: sorry BlaiseEbuth, just saying that you're a worse mod than me to ZarthaxX :P

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: MSmits, thanks

MSmits: sometimes teccles is a losing move though, if you check karliso vs recurse, recurse often wins/draws as player 2, because karliso uses teccles in a late 20s play move

MSmits: ply

MSmits: i solved this move as a loss

BlaiseEbuth: That's true. And probably THE worse. Pretty proud of that.

darkhorse64: evil mod

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: Othello boss timed out :>

jacek: who made it!?!?!?

darkhorse64: don't know

Astrobytes: :D

Astrobytes: BlaiseEbuth: :japanese_ogre:

Westicles: Is the MILA clobber code published? Be interesting to see how it does against you guys

darkhorse64: won't fix if it does not happen too often

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: First time I've seen it happen

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: Usually I'm the one timing out

Astrobytes: oh it was played as an 8x8 I see Westicles

Astrobytes: darkhorse64: It's rare

darkhorse64: I usually don't have safety margins: I search full time

Astrobytes: Ahh, there I go, back to my safe place at the bottom of Clobber Wood 1. The balance is restored!

Astrobytes: (didn't finish porting to mcts yet)

struct: this is all I can find

struct: https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/

struct: and this, is from lines of action bot

struct: https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/loa/

struct: Called Mia

jacek: the author of mcts solver paper?

struct: Is it him?

struct: Well I guess he is also the creator of Mila

jacek: he wrote many mcts papers

Astrobytes: Yeah winands

Astrobytes: https://research.cyber.ee/~janwil/publ/clobreport05.pdf

struct: Westicles

struct: https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/loa/download.html

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: this guy is the mcts master - look at his Ph.D. Students supervision section

struct: "GameMaster 2.0 is an abstract board-game playing computer environment. It plays LOA, Breakthrough, Clobber, Domineering, Knightthrough, and Surakarta."

struct: Not sure if the code is public though

ZarthaxX: holy f

Westicles: Looks like it is just an executable

Astrobytes: there are java decompilers

ZarthaxX: mcts-minmax hybrid papers too

AntiSquid: sounds like some generalized ML

Astrobytes: Also, UnnamedCodinGamer, Rémi Coulom is also on this site (CG that is)

jacek: quite old. before that nn hype

Astrobytes: Crazy_Remi = Rémi Coulom

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: who is he?

Astrobytes: Uh, he invented MCTS for starters :)

AntiSquid: NLP goes very far back, not necessarily NN indeed

MSmits: he's on the D&B leaderboard. Miklla beat him though (i did by a small margin as well)

Astrobytes: Nice! I hope he gets into some other games

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I think I have come across the referred as originator MCTS paper from 2006 I think

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I do not remember his name

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: I might be wrong

Astrobytes: "In 2006, inspired by these predecessors, Rémi Coulom described the application of the Monte Carlo method to game-tree search and coined the name Monte Carlo tree search"

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: really nice

Astrobytes: Incorporation of the UCB formula was later, but still. The guy's a legend

jacek: remi, winands and Teytaud are common names in mcts papers

Astrobytes: Very strong Go engine too

Astrobytes: Yes jacek

struct: I skip the name part

AntiSquid: ya same

AntiSquid: but maybe worth keeping track who writes the good papers :P

jacek: there are many references

Astrobytes: You would do well to look at names so you can read the references.

AntiSquid: he gets a lot of citations ?

jacek: you read paper and see [name, 2009]

Astrobytes: They all do. Read the names and check the references that are in every paper :|

Astrobytes: *every paper related to the subjects we speak of

jacek: i wonder have many cites that aerodynamic paper has

jacek: dat grammar

MSmits: you wonder about that paper too much

Astrobytes: Poor jacek needs some (o)(o) in his life

therealbeef: an owl?

MSmits: yes, for the sake of the children, lets assume it's an owl :P

Astrobytes: I'm no good at these things

MSmits: :owl:

Astrobytes: Assume owl for safely

Astrobytes: *safety

Astrobytes: Other than that: he needs BREASTS

Astrobytes: Women, etc etc

MSmits: ah i was going to assume chicken next, protein etc.

therealbeef: what are the etc etc?

Scarfield: xD

Astrobytes: He's into anime and catgirls

MSmits: ponies

Astrobytes: Hence the etc

jacek: who isnt?

Astrobytes: Aaaaand the ponies

Astrobytes: I'm not into anime. Or ponies.

Astrobytes: Catgirls...

Scarfield: to each their own

jacek: you have cat avatar

MSmits: and she is a girl

Astrobytes: Both of my cats are

Scarfield: and you say you are not into them :thinking:

Astrobytes: That doesn't mean I'm into human-woman-cat hybrids

AntiSquid: they can wear a costume

Astrobytes: They might be aesthetically pleasing, they might not. Either way they'd be fking terrifying

Scarfield: meh frog girls are where its at

AntiSquid: hybrids are creepy

Astrobytes: Elon can take his cat girls to MArs

Scarfield: he likes car girls?

AntiSquid: elon is playing along with the memes for popularity

Scarfield: cat *

MSmits: probably car also

Scarfield: xD

AntiSquid: someone joked about elon creating cat-girls and then elon reacted that it's an interesting idea, forgot exact story

AntiSquid: he already sent a tesla roadster to space MSmits, but you probably already know about it

MSmits: nope

MSmits: do you mean a toaster?

AntiSquid: oh

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: Lmao

AntiSquid: no, a car

MSmits: that doesnt make sense

MSmits: space has no roads

AntiSquid: it does if you look at the story behind it

MSmits: ok

AntiSquid: well it achieved multiple things

AntiSquid: including advertising

AntiSquid: point was to send a heavy load into space and prove his rockets can deliver this task

MSmits: I see

AntiSquid: so he used one of his cars to advertise ...

Nachosauce: Or maybe space is one large road

Scarfield: road theory

AntiSquid: oh and it was orbiting Mars at some point MSmits, comon you should know Mars' satelites

MSmits: phobos and deimos

AntiSquid: and tesla roadster

AntiSquid: for a while

MSmits: i refuse to memorize the tesla toaster

AntiSquid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msn7xbfEHoA

AntiSquid: car is displayed at 8:39

AntiSquid: has an astronaut dummy too

Nachosauce: Are you an octopus?

AntiSquid: one moment Nachosauce

MSmits: I see

AntiSquid: Nachosaucehttps://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/03/02/motorcycle-squid-on-the-rise-join-the-anti-squid-movement/ read this @_@

MSmits: dont trigger him about the motorcycle thing

Scarfield: you seem impressively unimpressed smitsi :)

MSmits: it's not very scientific

AntiSquid: until ! an alien species finds it, equips it with AI and fancy gadgets and the car returns to earth looking for its master next millennia

AntiSquid: referencing star trek here, voyager returned to earth on its own :P

Astrobytes: I sent a heavy load into space once, that was a great night, she was... I never did find it in the morning anyway so I assume it went to space ...

MSmits: I'm thinking first contact will be a traffic accident :(

AntiSquid: tunguska style ?

AntiSquid: not saying it was aliens, could be a car equiped with AI from another civilization

MSmits: that's just a meteorite :P

struct: The car is still travelling right?

therealbeef: the squid article mentions 'google+', so quaint

AntiSquid: yes, don't think it hit anything, maybe he should have mounted a satellite on the back of the car?

Astrobytes: Wait til it collides with my load, AB2014

Astrobytes: Anyway, without further innuendo I shall say goodnight

AntiSquid: do you know about starlink btw?

ZarthaxX: cya astro :P

AntiSquid: gn8

MSmits: gn

struct: gn

Scarfield: gn

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: https://twitter.com/Remi_Coulom/status/1311426326868430849

MSmits: btw, if anyone is interested in the teccles fail at ply 28 for karliso vs recurse. I just reproduced it in IDE and got solved status from my meta mcts

struct: "easy to beat"

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: is he saying that he used alpha zero?

struct: he is saying it doesnt work

struct: for d&b

MSmits: it really doesn't

MSmits: also hard to use NN, but not impossible ofc. NN can do anything, but might be too constrained in CG

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: then it is not clear what he used

MSmits: he used some form of nimstring analysis

MSmits: like mikkla and I do

MSmits: it's the most math-y game on CG

MSmits: have to get into combinatorial theory

Default avatar.png UnnamedCodinGamer: yes, he mentions it in the reply to the question

MSmits: clobber uses some of this too, but it's less critical there

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: i cant read the reply, no twitter account

struct: "Dots and boxes is not a game where you build an intuition of who is ahead. You have to calculate exactly. And it is a combinatorial game. It may be possible to make AlphaZero work with the right network architecture, but I have not found it."

struct: You dont need a twitter account

MSmits: ah ok, yes

MSmits: thats it, you do have to calculate exactly

MSmits: any infinitesimal error in a "rough eval" would completely turn the game around

MSmits: it's in permanent zugzwang

MSmits: the only feature you could evaluate is whomevers turn it is basically

MSmits: even the score is useless, because the score has no bearing on what the best move is

MSmits: you can supposedly count chains and get a likelyhood that you will end up ahead, but it's basically a halfassed nimstring analysis

EmbeddedIs77: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1634293c8c92adc0b0de4e5c3845ea517cc6045

struct: MSmits do you think NN would work on STC?


ZarthaxX: shouldnt you ask recurs?

AntiSquid: why would it not struct ?

struct: I think it should

AntiSquid: i am assuming #1 on stc is NN

AntiSquid: #clash EmbeddedIs77

MSmits: it might be a bit complicated. the interaction between player and opponent is weird in stc

MSmits: same as with hypersonic. If you use a NN there, you lose the powerful beam search that ignores opponent

MSmits: using a NN in boardgames is just different

MSmits: might be that it's useful to use a NN partially, in a bot. Do some parts with pure math or brute force and do other parts with NN

Kyuujin: hello to night coders

Default avatar.png Nick_Svaki: the problem description is hard to understand.

ZarthaxX: which one Nick_Svaki?

Default avatar.png Nick_Svaki: I don't know how to seek the problem that I can't solve.

ZarthaxX: what problem is it