Chat:World/2021-02-23

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Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: :lul:

MSmits: that's obscene language in Dutch

MSmits: careful, or I will find a Dutch moderator

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: ?

Default avatar.png SuckyMcTryhard: it means dick

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: wth :wow:

reCurse: Enough spam

reCurse: Thanks

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: How you get a moderator badge?

reCurse: Why do you care?

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: you're a real mod?

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: Nice <3

reCurse: I can prove it

Default avatar.png MuhammadMehediHasan: It has already proved!

jacek: oO

Kitkat260: is anyone here really good at clash of code/

Kitkat260: ?

Astrobytes: Not a single person, no.

Kitkat260: ok

Default avatar.png NOTsteve: Do you need help with something or were you just wondering if anyone feels confident?

Default avatar.png dragginballs: all yall trash

Kitkat260: sup

Oeloeloeloe: Whats up

Kitkat260: hru

Oeloeloeloe: Great, hbu?

Kitkat260: ehh

Kitkat260: school

Kitkat260: is crazzy

Oeloeloeloe: How come?

Default avatar.png PrinceJordan: this is difficult they don't but real prince's through this lol

Kitkat260: i hate homework

Oeloeloeloe: I understand

Oeloeloeloe: Used to hate it too

Kitkat260: yea

Oeloeloeloe: Try to make it fun

Oeloeloeloe: It helps

Default avatar.png PrinceJordan: i dont care for homework i have no prob with it

Kitkat260: wow

Default avatar.png PrinceJordan: i work way better under pressure so thats why im ok with it

Kitkat260: nice

Default avatar.png kunomels: :)

jacek: AutomatonNN eh

AutomatonNN: eso in companies offer the link to it and then we use it for you and then the contest is over by the

jacek: AutomatonNN should be called AutomatonMLP

AutomatonNN: what do you mean by the contest?

Astrobytes: Hmph. At least we had peace for a day.

Uljahn: my little perceptron

Astrobytes: Better than multi-layered pony I guess

Default avatar.png RustyMysteryFromTheSwamps_fe5b: Hi guys

AntiSquid: drain the swamp!

AntiSquid: hi

Saphine: #clash https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/16078424e2f0294caf387125ad5c122193e9bf0

Astrobytes: Saphine: The idea of the #clash channel is that you click on #clash and post the link in there ;)

Astrobytes: Then you can say "would anyone like to join my #clash"

Astrobytes: Although I'm not sure why I care tbh.

jacek: you're mod, it's your mission

AntiSquid: i consider this "mistake" to be intentional

jacek: youre overthinking

AntiSquid: tell me what i should think, i am dependant on others to have my own opinion

jacek: jacek is op

Saphine: Oh sorry

PatrickMcGinnisII: jacek is PEBCAC AutomatonNN

AutomatonNN: what do you mean?

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: Hi, guys does anybody knows the solution to the game

BlaiseEbuth: Ze solution to Ze game. The only one. My preciouuuus.

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: ANEO sponsored puzzle... I think I half the way.. but I cannot get through

BlaiseEbuth: If you stop in the middle of the way you'll probably be hurted when the lights will turn green...

Kitkat260: hello

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I think , I am not understanding the problem at all

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: so I already calculated the average distance

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: sorry speed

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: but when I play all the test cases, it doesnt work

Kitkat260: same

Kitkat260: same

BlaiseEbuth: Do you mean that you're printing the same answer for all test cases ?

Kitkat260: yes

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: yeah, depending on the output but I am not getting the correct answer

BlaiseEbuth: That's not what that is expected. Your code must compute the answer of each test case.

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: 50 1 200 10 like this case I am just getting 76

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I dont understand then how it gets an answer of 36

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I thought that by following the formula speed=distance/time would get the right answer

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: but nope

BlaiseEbuth: Have you read the statement ?

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: yeah, but probably I am not getting it right

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I think thats my problem

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I will read again

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: how to solve it lol

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: im dumb

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I think this problem involves a bit more math

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: and analythical skills

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: yea

PatrickMcGinnisII: usually people forget to convert km/h and duration to more manageable integers

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: teach me?

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: im new to this "world"

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: how do you collect even and odd numbers?

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: and by "sum" do they mean add them together?

PatrickMcGinnisII: try multiplying both by 3600 then compare the computed time float by integer division by each duration...if even...then it hits a green light

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: ...

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: English

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: plz

PatrickMcGinnisII: if you looop from your maxspeed down to 1

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: why multiply it by 3600

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: how to do that

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: do you have discord

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: can u be my sensai

Astrobytes: did someone miss their Ritalin dose today?

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: 19 secods

PatrickMcGinnisII: and at each of these speeds, count how many green lights are valid... if you hit them all, then you have your answer

Astrobytes: Imnewhelp: stop talking rubbish and interrupting

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: ???

PatrickMcGinnisII: time=dist/spd

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: oh wait

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: are we on diffrent code servers lol

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: sorry lol

jacek: its global chat ~

Astrobytes: Yeah, I think he meant to type in his clash chat

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: :joy:

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: sorry guys

AntiSquid: it's ok

AntiSquid: just stop playing clash

Astrobytes: np, just be careful in future

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: sure bye guys

AntiSquid: hold up

AntiSquid: play some multis

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: whats multis

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: im like 9

PatrickMcGinnisII: determine an easy way to see if car hits the green window is easily done with (int)(tryingspeed/lightduration/lightduration)%2==0 then car went thru on a green light

AntiSquid: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming

PatrickMcGinnisII: oops messed up formula

Astrobytes: PatrickMcGinnisII: make sure to tag AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra in your replies or it'll get lost in random chat

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: looks like fun

PatrickMcGinnisII: lightdistance/tryingspeed/lightspeed

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: how long have you guys been playing this game

PatrickMcGinnisII: AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra make sure to convert the values appropriately km to m and h to s

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: i wouldnt call it a game, its more like a torture chamber until you gett gud

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: yeap, I did, but I think my approach was not correct I found a web page which has a fair explanation

PatrickMcGinnisII: damn, still screwd up formula

PatrickMcGinnisII: i meant lightduration instead of lightspeed

Astrobytes: don't do that in an important physics calculation :P

PatrickMcGinnisII: AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra the puzzle is pretty easy, it's like 20 lines

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: did you solved it already?

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: https://www.xarg.org/puzzle/codingame/aneo-sponsored-puzzle/

Astrobytes: Wasn't there a common pitfall involving decimal places or something?

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I found this solution

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I think my approach was incorrect, I didnt think that much

Astrobytes: Well, it's not the best idea to look for full solutions before you solve it

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: yeah, I know but I havent seen the solution

PatrickMcGinnisII: Astrobytes yes, that's why multiplying the inputs by 3600 makes the intdiv work to determine odd (red light) versus even (green light)

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: so somebody might be able to help me

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: to explain it

Astrobytes: gotcha PatrickMcGinnisII

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: please

PatrickMcGinnisII: I can't say much more without giving it away

PatrickMcGinnisII: loop from maxspeed down to 1

PatrickMcGinnisII: in each loop, sim the car ... hit a red light...then that speed isn't a solution

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: Ok, I think I was thinking about a linear solution but it is different

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: I will do the drawing

PatrickMcGinnisII: there are prolly a 100 different solutions, each lang. delas with prcision differently

PatrickMcGinnisII: deals w/ precision..i can't type

AnaPaulinaRamirezSierra: ok, got it. I need to practice more my analytical skills

PatrickMcGinnisII: ashketchum made sure board is basically 63 bits, so the simple ways of determining a win with bitwise operations takes some head scratching

PatrickMcGinnisII: sorry working on connect 4

Neumann: CGBenchmark has been fixed to work with the new APIs : https://github.com/s-vivien/CGBenchmark/releases/tag/1.2.0

jacek: connect4 eh

PatrickMcGinnisII: I need 72 bits, I only have 63 :cry:

jacek: why 72 bits?

PatrickMcGinnisII: I need a 0 row to prevent false positives.... so 8x9

jacek: use some masks

Astrobytes: thx Neumann

PatrickMcGinnisII: *sigh*, storing the board in 3 64 bit ints is ok, but the easy ways to test for a win become more complex

PatrickMcGinnisII: can do it in 2

PatrickMcGinnisII: the 3rd is basically p0|p1 anyways

PatrickMcGinnisII: sry

PatrickMcGinnisII: <-- talks to himself in chat apparently

jacek: welp 63 bits is ideal for bitboard stuff

jacek: you only needs 2 int64s

PatrickMcGinnisII: a normal connect 4 board 7x6 would be easier

Astrobytes: It's not supposed to be easy.

jacek: but boring. its solved

jacek: maybe solution isnt within reach in cg constraints, but its very close

PatrickMcGinnisII: yea ok, 2^64 ...heh

PatrickMcGinnisII: 2^42 isn't THAT far odd, but yes, there are more online discussions of the normal board

PatrickMcGinnisII: odd=off

jacek: https://tromp.github.io/c4/c4.html

jacek: 8x8 is solved

PatrickMcGinnisII: with an opening book no less

reCurse: Checkers is solved too and yet

PatrickMcGinnisII: yea, i see the need to twist it a little

PatrickMcGinnisII: keeping the width an odd number of columns seems to be an advantage of sorts

Default avatar.png Imnewhelp: imagine having a social life:joy:

jacek: :scream:

reCurse: You sound like a quality individual

PatrickMcGinnisII: "Stay away from my coffee or I'll drink it from your skull" ;)

PatrickMcGinnisII: lol PHP_INT_MAX<<1 = -2 ... fml

Astrobytes: Honestly Patrick yourPHP masochism is always impressive.

Astrobytes: *your PHP

PatrickMcGinnisII: ((PHP_INT_MAX-1)<<1) = -4

PatrickMcGinnisII: i'm guessing it's a 2s complement thing

PatrickMcGinnisII: yup, self torture

Astrobytes: CGSM

PatrickMcGinnisII: ahh CG sado masochism, took me sec :joy:

Astrobytes: :grin:

AntiCheap: When will spring game be?

AntiCheap: I'll need to dehibernate

Astrobytes: Spring probably.

PatrickMcGinnisII: yea i don't feel like doing a breadth first alphabetaminmax with a node limit of 1000, with some quarklike eval ... I'm losing my mind

Astrobytes: Just use C ffs! Not like you don't know it!

PatrickMcGinnisII: 9^x=1000 anyone know?

PatrickMcGinnisII: depth 3 i guess

Astrobytes: yes

PatrickMcGinnisII: i have done 20k nodes on some simple games

Astrobytes: Honestly man it's an exercise in futility for a lot of multis. Puzzle-wise sure. You might as well be controlling a nuclear reactor with VB

PatrickMcGinnisII: you're not wrong

Astrobytes: At least use the fortran compiler we have on here :P

PatrickMcGinnisII: haven't done fortran since like '89

PatrickMcGinnisII: If I WAS using VB, i would have a loaded gun in my lap

PatrickMcGinnisII: I like java more than c#

PatrickMcGinnisII: exercise in futility

Astrobytes: You are a true mystery.

Astrobytes: I firmly stand by my CGSM label.

PatrickMcGinnisII: I did alot of C++ and ASM graphics back in the day ... I don't wanna pull the boxes of code out just yet

Astrobytes: Be a helluva lot easier than this torturous process!

PatrickMcGinnisII: I guess I'm trying to do the same speed improvements with php that I would do with C# anyways

PatrickMcGinnisII: but i could be sloppier with more power

PatrickMcGinnisII: hmm

PatrickMcGinnisII: yup, you might be triggering me to do the lang. switch on CG, but I still have other php projects going on non-CG

Astrobytes: Well don't give up PHP! And feel free to use it on puzzles etc but for the love of god help yourself wrt multis :)

AntiSquid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE-aQO9XD1g seen this yet ? it's 3D too so you can drag and look around

PatrickMcGinnisII: i'll prolly see if I can get into wood1 of connect 4, then make sure my Vis. studio still works

Astrobytes: good!

AntiSquid: when did connect 4 appear ?

darkhorse64: last week

PatrickMcGinnisII: I use eclipse for java, i know that works

AntiSquid: eclipse? wow unreal

Astrobytes: Not changed much since Viking AntiSquid :P

Astrobytes: Eclipse?! I'm gonna label you asa pure BDSM over CGSM if this continues Patrick

AntiSquid: eclipse is closer to injecting bleach into your veins

PatrickMcGinnisII: AntiSquid that YT link is pretty damn kewl

PatrickMcGinnisII: ok, you use VS for java too?

AntiSquid: VSC or intellij

Astrobytes: IntelliJ or VSCode

PatrickMcGinnisII: IJ?

PatrickMcGinnisII: ahh

AntiSquid: i am not a fan of VS, i get it some people like it ...

Astrobytes: IntelliJ is great for java but it's a bit slower than VSC for me, ymmv

PatrickMcGinnisII: so I should be using Cordova?

Astrobytes: You what?

AntiSquid: what do you want to do ?

PatrickMcGinnisII: hmm, trying to figure out what plugin i need for android

jacek: android studio

jacek: forget cordova :unamused:

AntiSquid: ya why not android studio ?

AntiSquid: too popular?

AntiSquid: phone gap worth trying too btw

PatrickMcGinnisII: i'm used to the JDK thru eclipse actually

jacek: cordova is phonegap

AntiSquid: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/11b5dd42-b7b2-4279-8417-23c1a73d380a

jacek: huh

AntiSquid: is it? i don't know anymore

PatrickMcGinnisII: Android Studio only supports java for programming. On the other hand, Eclipse supports C, C++, PHP, Java, Perl, C#, and many other languages as well. ... When it comes to user interface Android Studio is much easier and quicker. Eclipse is not a native Android IDE and thus, is more complicated than Android Eclipse.

AntiSquid: the why do i find articles titled "Adobe PhoneGap vs Apache Cordova" jacek ?

Astrobytes: Yeah it's Apache Cordova now

PatrickMcGinnisII: Wow, I am into BDSM

AntiSquid: so it closed down and got bought ?

Astrobytes: screenshotted for future reference PatrickMcGinnisII

PatrickMcGinnisII: The screen layout looks SOO much easier in AS

AntiSquid: you can at the very least use kotlin in android studio last i checked

AntiSquid: and with some plugins you can use other languages ...

PatrickMcGinnisII: ok, yall put me in a google hole

Default avatar.png greencat: test

Default avatar.png greencat: woah

Astrobytes: Test failed. Abort.

Scarfield: Astraborts

Astrobytes: Scabortfield

Scarfield: any new plans to escape

Astrobytes: Don't think so, they'd have announced if there were new scenarios I guess

Scarfield: oh i thought someone mentioned there were new ones available

Astrobytes: Oh?

Astrobytes: I still have no access so can't check

Scarfield: they are no new ones

Astrobytes: 'there are not' or 'they are not'?

Scarfield: xD

Scarfield: there are no new ones available

Astrobytes: aw fk even I fked it, 'there are no' fml

MSmits: you're both crap at language

MSmits: just fyi

Scarfield: xD

MSmits: :)

Astrobytes: Thanks man

MSmits: yw :grin:

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Astrobytes: Did you try the escape thingy MSmits? I can't remember if you did or not

MSmits: nope

Astrobytes: It's kinda fun tbh, you need voice/video though. I did the first one with just text from my end - not good

MSmits: just submitted my 4th (?) completely rebuilt random rollout just now... hope this does something, prolly not :P

Astrobytes: A rebuilt random rollout ...

MSmits: oh teamwork game you mean

Astrobytes: Yeah

Scarfield: :v: (imagine the fingers crossed)

MSmits: the worst thing is that most of them get stuck between 5 and 10 or something. So not only did i fail to improve anything, I dont know which one to continue with :P

Astrobytes: Sounds like you need: ML!

jacek: and messing up with the leaderboard

jacek: my little what?

MSmits: no thanks, if i do ML it wont be uttt

Scarfield: xD

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: Scarfield: how can there not be a fingers crossed emoticon thing

Astrobytes: My little problem

Astrobytes: jacek

Scarfield: yea i know, its ridicoulus

Astrobytes: there's also no salt one on here, but discord has it. I feel salty about that :salt:

MSmits: bot doing reasonably good, but it's probably a lucky streak

Scarfield: why are we even here. without these emojies whats the point

Astrobytes: Life is meaningless.

MSmits: life is empty without a screaming cat

jacek: :soccer:

MSmits: :scream_cat:

Scarfield: wait there is always "xD" aahh im happy again

Astrobytes: :scream_cat:

Astrobytes: Here he comes to save the day. EeeeecksDee is on his wayyyy

Astrobytes: (Mighty Mouse reference)

MSmits: ohh yeah i remember that

MSmits: yellow cape right

Scarfield: https://youtu.be/T0HLAKm1_1Q?t=2 xD

Scarfield: no idea what this is

MSmits: ahh not his cape, the rest is yellow

PatrickMcGinnisII: :beer:

Astrobytes: It was a cartoon about a... well, like a super mouse

MSmits: it was good

MSmits: i liked it

Astrobytes: iirc it was quite funny

MSmits: bah i was doing so well. now getting wrecked by re curse NN

Astrobytes: heh heh heh

MSmits: wish i could do proper benchmarking

MSmits: but cg bench not working

jacek: it is now

MSmits: really how?

MSmits: new release?

jacek: https://github.com/s-vivien/CGBenchmark/releases/tag/1.2.0

MSmits: yay

MSmits: thanks

MSmits: my new bot has 60-70k rollouts

MSmits: much heavier though

Astrobytes: Yeah was about 8pm or thereabouts he posted the update in here

MSmits: he did that fast

Astrobytes: Don't think it was a particularly difficult thing to fix, something about the JSON response returning the result object as the root (you've seen JSON responses)

MSmits: i've seen loads of texty stuff if thats what you mean

MSmits: thats professional jargon btw

Astrobytes: lol yeah, but the hierarchy/format of the JSON response.

MSmits: not lately

MSmits: but i'm totally ok with that

Astrobytes: Before there was some other shit before you got to the actual result of your API request

MSmits: they removed the :poop: ?

MSmits: no more jobby in the json?

Astrobytes: Didn't check, probably just moved it

Astrobytes: OMG

Astrobytes: jobby in the json

Astrobytes: Actually spat out my tea

MSmits: :grin:

Astrobytes: Well played

MSmits: i have a bad memory for some things, but I can do fairly well with poopywords

Astrobytes: I think that's a male thing

Scarfield: looking forward to the chat word image from euler with a super large "jobby"

MSmits: hmm maybe

MSmits: yeah i noticed my wife is not into poop

Astrobytes: I refuse to ask why or how you found this out.

MSmits: better not

Astrobytes: Scarfield: :rofl:

MSmits: my submit: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/msmits

MSmits: I think it's an improvement. I did a complete rewrite of sim, so tons of room for experimentation

MSmits: wrecked by re curse, but its hard to draw conclusions from that

Astrobytes: Definitely hitting the wall wrt reBless, tomatoes is giving you a run for your money

MSmits: 50% tomatoes

MSmits: bad run vs vingte though

MSmits: he definitely improved

Astrobytes: I'd be more concerned about fixing that 50%

reCurse: Why don't you spam submit that version then for a change :P

Astrobytes: initially

MSmits: hmm, i kinda owe it to you dont I reCurse

MSmits: one more should do it maybe?

Astrobytes: heh

MSmits: another submit incoming

reCurse: Tempting to resubmit

MSmits: dont

MSmits: I will fix it

MSmits: you'll be nr 1 for a little while

reCurse: Nah but I can get higher by resubmitting

reCurse: More games vs you :P

MSmits: more than if i spam>/

AntiSquid: submit wars?

reCurse: Yeah because then I get games vs kar too

Astrobytes: Get a room you two :P

MSmits: ohh

reCurse: Alright F it

reCurse: Let's do it live

MSmits: I think my new bot is much stronger vs lower ranked players than all the other ones i had

Astrobytes: eSports!

AntiSquid: good stream opportunity, just add some trash talking, throw some dirt at each other

reCurse: There's a million other better options for that

Wontonimo: well, whatever you are doing is causing me to go up in rank, so keep it coming

MSmits: probably random though

Astrobytes: that's usually not a good thing unless you're top 5

Scarfield: one day there will be an anime about your uttt rivalry

reCurse: CG anime

reCurse: There's enough material for a couple of seasons without fillers

MSmits: I don't feel that much rivalry with re curse atm because I'm like rank 4-5 atm

Astrobytes: More of a classic kung-fu movie I think

jacek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxCukwjjhhg

Astrobytes: You beat my beloved master and adopted his techniques!

Wontonimo: I really think there is a rock-paper-scissors with the bots going on, and trueskill doesn't capture that there are different flavours. It's a fairly basic machine learning problem that is similar to learning user preferences or a recommendation system

AntiSquid: Scarfield https://averagejoe351213450.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/inuyashiki-header.jpg

reCurse: There's also a fairly basic solution, optimize wrt pair winrates

reCurse: Trueskill is very ill suited for bot ranking

reCurse: Yet everyone does it for some reason

MSmits: Wontonimo there is a rock paper scissors going on, but it's actually much worse in other games

Scarfield: lol squid

MSmits: not doing as poorly against you this time around reCurse

Wontonimo: MSmits all the more reason to promote a solution. If we had tennis players, wouldn't we keep track of (or calculate from probabilities) left and right handed?

reCurse: It's ok it's my best chance at 2 minutes of glory

MSmits: Wontonimo this has been discussed soooo often. there's no point to it now

reCurse: Fighting this system is too frustrating

reCurse: If this community wasn't dying I'd make alternative leaderboards

Astrobytes: There are ways of calculating more reasonably

Astrobytes: Ah yeah, what reCurse said

reCurse: Parse new matches every hour and compute new leaderboard every day

Wontonimo: haha MSmits , just cuz i'm late to the game, doesn't mean I get to miss out on giving my 0.02 . That said, i get it, we got we got

MSmits: i accept that the rankings are flawed and that rank is onyl accurate between two bots with obviously different strengths

MSmits: Wontonimo sure, didn't mean to silence you on this

MSmits: just trying not to give you false hope this will be fixed

Wontonimo: all good dude

Astrobytes: reCurse: The community isn't dying it's just cg seems hell bent on killing it

reCurse: No it's dying let's be honest

Wontonimo: which community?

reCurse: Not nearly as much activity from the 5% as there used to be

Astrobytes: Yes but the reason is

AntiSquid: he's talking about us Wontonimo

Wontonimo: :(

AntiSquid: i consider myself still young though

Astrobytes: euler's inactivity made me quite sad

Scarfield: ^

reCurse: I was surprised he sticked around so long after

Wontonimo: i feel like i missed out by not joining 2 years ago

reCurse: I don't nearly put as much in as he does

reCurse: I'd be frankly disgusted

MSmits: Wontonimo try not to get too discouraged. There is no better platform for botting out there still... afaik

Astrobytes: Yeah you're not wrong there reCurse

AntiSquid: what happened to euler? wasn't around much lately

Astrobytes: It's beyond a slap in the face/kick in the teeth

MSmits: he designed a contest

reCurse: Think he got fed up being played like a violin for months trying to get his community contest in

MSmits: but never happened

reCurse: Only to get the abysmal response CG gave

AntiSquid: aaaah that, i was surprised they wouldn't accept a ready made game to fill in an empty downtime

reCurse: Gotta get those juicy numbers twice a year

Astrobytes: I mean that was ready since last end of summer/beginning of autumn (fall you heathens) right?

Astrobytes: TryAngle Catch I mean

AntiSquid: don't think it helps retention, but i don't have all the stats

reCurse: I think the clashers are the audience they're going for

reCurse: Well soon they'll get what they want

Astrobytes: Yep.

Wontonimo: honestly, i thought this was mostly a job recruitment site that just tolerated the top % players who are just doing it for fun and not recruitment. So personally, I'm super impressed that they pay for all this cloud compute that doesn't really feed their core business

reCurse: I am very thankful for the years of fun

reCurse: I am very frustrated with how it ends

reCurse: End of story

Astrobytes: It's kinda built on the community, or has been these days, and the reason we've supported them is because they've done all this.

Andriamanitra: i'm sure they would like this to be a recruitment site because that would make money

Andriamanitra: but i'm not convinced anyone is getting recruited here :D

Astrobytes: Now, it's a different feeling.

AntiSquid: are you looking for a job here Wontonimo ?

Wontonimo: hey hey ... reCurse did you change your bot or just resubmit? if change, mind sharing?

reCurse: They have a very different side of business we don't see

reCurse: Same bot

reCurse: When I complain about the broken rankings

Astrobytes: CG for Work is separate

reCurse: I'm not fucking kidding

Wontonimo: AntiSquid no, i'm happy with my job

reCurse: They are broken as hell

Astrobytes: that's the same one reCurse?

reCurse: Yes

MSmits: well... not everyone feels the same way about this. I do think it is sad that they removed community contests, but it wasnt the main fun for me

reCurse: Exact code

Astrobytes: ffs lol

MSmits: well

MSmits: karlisos bot does very well against some subtop players

MSmits: better than recurse

MSmits: so when they submit...

reCurse: There is no excuse

AntiSquid: contests are the most active time

Wontonimo: HAHA

reCurse: I have 65-70% vs him, I don't care if he 100% the rest

MSmits: i had a bot for a long time that had 25% vs karliso and 50% vs you

Astrobytes: Perhaps they never really factored in the fact that people would write such competitive bots - or perhaps they just never bothered updating it accordingly :thinking:

MSmits: reCurse thats not fair though, you're saying you want RPS to make you win, but not when ti makes you lose

reCurse: Ok let me rephrase

AntiSquid: even OOC was fun, didn't like the game itself, but it's the event and how it plays out and the chatting and ranting and debugging and complaints and the memes ....

reCurse: There is no world in which you have >65% against all top bots

reCurse: And you're not rank 1

Astrobytes: No he's saying it's nonsense

reCurse: There is no justification

Scarfield: and ceg asking about the rules

MSmits: i can give 1, sort of

MSmits: what if there's only 1 clear rival

reCurse: I can fit an elo curve on winrates if you give me 24 hours to batch it

MSmits: and having >50 % against everyone else is trivial

reCurse: It's a joke

MSmits: you migth RPS that rival

AntiSquid: ceg "speed runs", save time on reading statement Scarfield

MSmits: does that mean your bot is better?

reCurse: If you have a significant positive winrate against every bot

reCurse: You are number 1

reCurse: End of story

reCurse: I can document all the ways the system is broken

AntiSquid: :thumbsup:

MSmits: allright, so what if they did a round of games where all the top 10 playeed 10 games against the other 9

MSmits: do you think you would win that?

MSmits: if all games counted equal

MSmits: because I doubt that

reCurse: Low sampling means there is a probability distribution

Astrobytes: There was a reason for pb's alternative scoring in BR (and in subsequent contests)

MSmits: ok 1000 games then

reCurse: So let's say I have 70% vs the rest

reCurse: And he 100% the rest

Astrobytes: *(and grpahs in subsequent contests)

reCurse: But I 70% him

reCurse: You're fine saying I'm number 2

MSmits: yeah

struct: yes

MSmits: because RPS

MSmits: what if he changes 1 parameter

reCurse: I don't know what to say. It's pure nonsense.

MSmits: and your 70% becomes 40%

MSmits: maybe thats the case

MSmits: RPs is fickle

reCurse: What kind of hypothetical scenario is that

MSmits: seen it happen a lot

reCurse: It's not about what could be

reCurse: It's about what the winrates *are*

struct: But what would your win rate vs the rest be?


reCurse: I just explained

MSmits: yes but you are making your own definition

reCurse: I just exaggerated in his favor the current scenario happening

reCurse: And you still think it's fine

MSmits: I know

reCurse: So it's kind of mindboggling to me

MSmits: you are choosing a particular definition of *best bot*

MSmits: i am not defending the trueskill system btw

reCurse: Someone saying a bot that wins significantly above everyone else doesn't get rank 1

MSmits: i am just not certain its fair to say karlisos bot is weaker overall

reCurse: To me it's like 1+1=3

reCurse: I don't know how and why I should debate that

struct: Which rating system would not place you second in the example you provided?

reCurse: An elo curve fitted against pairwise winrates

Astrobytes: (which is also, I may add, asking the impossible on CG)

MSmits: but you yourself said it's important that a bot is generalized well.

Wontonimo: trueskill has both win chance and fickleness of win built in. With these two factors all sorts of weirdness come out.

MSmits: isn't karlisos bot generalized better if he does well against everione except your deterministic nn

reCurse: You think a better generalization is better winrates against bots you dominate while losing significantly to a rival bot

MSmits: no, i think it needs to all be taken into account

MSmits: and i think RPS is a bad judge of bot strength

reCurse: It's not RPS

MSmits: why not, i tried like 5 completely different bots against karliso

MSmits: i even have had 55% winrate vs you

AntiSquid: well continuous games would fix this even at large intervals

MSmits: with one of them

reCurse: You don't need continuous games

MSmits: none of them got over 30% vs karliso

reCurse: You just need to fit historical data

Wontonimo: once i found the score was trueskill, i change my strategy to try and target more consistent results and really make sure I don't lose against much lower (and also it can hurt to win against much higher)

Wontonimo: i don't think that's the case with your bot reCurse cuz it just wins as far as i can tell ... so your uncertainly should be near zero

MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/reCurse

MSmits: looks very much rps to me

MSmits: look at that insane winrate vs karliso

reCurse: Can we please not look at submit results

reCurse: And instead rely on big batches

jacek: and little vs jacek

reCurse: I've had 75 games 55% winrate batches turn into 68% at 250 games

MSmits: it's small sure... but still... 30-6

Astrobytes: Wontonimo: It's a bit sad you feel you have to actually change your approach purely based on the scoring algorithm

MSmits: yeah i would not do that

reCurse: I don't have 83% on a large batch

reCurse: So I won't debate that

AntiSquid: i'd expect to be 1st with win rates like that tbh

MSmits: no i know, but you do not have much difference between winrates vs karliso and other players

MSmits: right/

MSmits: ?

MSmits: he;s sooo much stronger than everyone else. Only your bot has this experience

MSmits: which is quite the achievement to be sure

MSmits: not debating that

reCurse: You're assuming RPS when it could be unexplored transitivity

MSmits: what that?

Astrobytes: Transitivity that has not currently been explored.

reCurse: The opposite of RPS is perfect transitivity right?

AntiSquid: no i mean recurz got better win rates on that magugeek site, or am i missing something?

MSmits: sure ok

reCurse: But all you have is few data points at the top with a very large distance

MSmits: yeah thats the main problem, the two guys at the top are far ahead

reCurse: With more diversified top bots you could still find it's not RPS at all

MSmits: exactly

MSmits: if we had more bots of that strength, we could know for sure

reCurse: So I don't know why you assume RPS when there's no strong evidence for it

Astrobytes: Do some alt submits

MSmits: I don';t assume, i think it;s possible, even likely because of my experience with various bots submitting. But I cant assume

AntiSquid: oh ya flood UTTT with clones ! :D

Astrobytes: No, not clones. I mean meaningfully different but strong bots.

MSmits: various bots benchmarking i mean

Astrobytes: "Multiplayer is a zoo" right

AntiSquid: right, but some animals live in large colonies

Astrobytes: don't get OT

Astrobytes: Nah I can't make head nor tail of that UTTT leaderboard really.

Default avatar.png Just_Spark: I can't understand clashincode game xD

AntiSquid: well then ... that's end of the road

Default avatar.png Just_Spark: xd

AntiSquid: omega_xD ?

PatrickMcGinnisII: lol pushed papyjo out of wood2 connect4 with a depth 1

Astrobytes: You're supposed to push yourself out of wood 2

PatrickMcGinnisII: its deoth 1

Wontonimo: i think i may just start a metagame of trying to make a bot good enough to push players out of wood league in games but purposefully lose agains the boss

PatrickMcGinnisII: rofl

PatrickMcGinnisII: i win against boss, but not players

PatrickMcGinnisII: boss is pretty dumb

struct: If you do it in CSB, its similar to DDOS

Wontonimo: eventually they'll get auto-promoted and only leave you and the bot

MSmits: PatrickMcGinnisII the boss is supposed to be a weak bar of entry

Astrobytes: lol struct

Astrobytes: anyway, goodnight/goodbye all, laters

struct: gn

MSmits: gn Astrobytes

reCurse: :wave:

Wontonimo: laters Astrobytes

AntiSquid: gn8

Wontonimo: it's only 6pm dude (timezone lol)

MSmits: midnight here :)

MSmits: In Dutchieland

Scarfield: gn

Wontonimo: so, 90% away approximately

AntiSquid: are you leaving too Scarfield ?

MSmits: 90% ?

struct: Just make unbeatable bot, problem solved

Scarfield: nono, just a little late to say gn to sleepstrobytes

Wontonimo: if you tell me how high the moon rises off the horizon then I can get a rough estimate of long and lat from my position

Wontonimo: actually, no, i'm too lazy the to the math

Wontonimo: 90 degrees

Wontonimo: not %

Wontonimo: there really should be a degree symbol on the keyboard

MSmits: yeah i dont have it either

AntiSquid: there is, you just have wrong keyboard / layout

AntiSquid: not on mine either btw

Wontonimo: (waves fist)

milad-mehri: °

milad-mehri: there is no key

milad-mehri: use alt codes

Wontonimo: or spoon apparently

AntiSquid: you have it on german keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

AntiSquid: top left

Wontonimo: hmm .. how much damage has all these resubmits caused me on uttt ...

MSmits: your 31 rank would be worth top 20 a year ago and top 10 the year before that

MSmits: uttt has evolved a lot

Wontonimo: that's what i gets for being late to the party

MSmits: nagrarok was nr 1 for over a year i think

MSmits: now 16

MSmits: same bot

reCurse: Booking doesn't age well

Wontonimo: i also get some lessons learnt from trail blazers and community support

MSmits: I do you really think he booked so much? I never noticed it

reCurse: Not nearly as much as those coming after

MSmits: maybe because he didnt counterbook me personally

reCurse: I meant booking, counterbooking is more specific and harder

reCurse: To detect

MSmits: ah

MSmits: well booking doesnt even help that much

MSmits: regular books i mean in uttt

reCurse: I'm speculating btw, haven't had official confirmation/deny

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: i noticed the counterbooks when i pitted you, karliso and miarem against eachother in my IDE and saw the same games for 15-20 plies. Identical every time :P

MSmits: of course could be other reasons... but not likely :0

reCurse: True

Wontonimo: that just seems kinda cheap ... and tempting

MSmits: tell me about it

Wontonimo: not my speed though

MSmits: they created a monster by doing that :P

Wontonimo: i'd get a lot more satisfaction from having an algo that wins vs it than just hardcode something

MSmits: its no longer done much in uttt now though

MSmits: dont worry about it

MSmits: the thing is, counterbooking makes you vulnerable to counterbooking

MSmits: by counterbooking, you're making yourself deterministic

MSmits: it's selfdefeating, unless it's perfect play

Wontonimo: if i was gonna attack such a thing, my kneejerk would be to deep train offline for that config, and apply it as a soft heuristic like i do with teccles heuristic. It isn't deterministic in my algo.

Wontonimo: but ... now thinking of it, i can't see how it wouldn't be deterministic and open to counter attack

Wontonimo: okay, point taken

MSmits: if you apply teccles only in the early game it's pretty much perfect play

MSmits: i cant prove that, but i've seen enough to think thats the case

Scarfield: just dont google it, apparently :p

MSmits: lol

Wontonimo: at least from my basement bathroom

reCurse: Counterbooking doesn't necessarily imply deterministic

reCurse: You could make it next level with generic counterbooking

MSmits: that's true i guess

Wontonimo: hmm ... this refactoring to not have the whole board copied in each node is proving time consuing

MSmits: worth it though

MSmits: you will have more space

MSmits: can even do tree reuse then

MSmits: i am assuming you currently dont reuse

MSmits: with those huge nodes

Wontonimo: no reduce / reuse / recycle here

struct: Also storing the current game state every time can be expensive in the long run

struct: Especially when you dont need it

MSmits: what most of us do is have 20-30 million node pool, when you apply a move, you select the child as the new root, then when the opponent plays a move, you search that new root for the move and make the new child the root. then you continue searching

MSmits: the new turn will have a large tree as a base already

MSmits: it's probably about 10% of the original tree. Still helps

MSmits: with a small exploration, it could be much more or less, more if your opponent plays what you expect

Wontonimo: oh, i do reuse the tree from the last turn and search for the opponent move

MSmits: ohh ok

MSmits: but then you probably run out of nodes?

MSmits: or maybe not if you dont have that many rollouts

Wontonimo: i don't pre-allocate nodes. I tried that yesterday after talking and got the segmentation violation blues ... with small nodes it'll be okay

Valdez001: hi

MSmits: yeah it will be

MSmits: preallocating nodes will help a ton

struct: you create nodes every expansion?

MSmits: also, why not reset your tree when you run out?

PatrickMcGinnisII: wood1, puke\

MSmits: just check at the beginning of your turn if you're near the end of your pool and reset it

Wontonimo: also, i tried to allocate on the stack. ... which is the wrong place. so, that's an easy fix

MSmits: you'll lose the tree, but thats fine

Wontonimo: struct yes i create nodes as i need them

struct: I wonder how big the performance penalty is

Wontonimo: dinner calls! later

MSmits: gtg as well. GN!

struct: gn

Wontonimo: oh, and my nodes contain a whole board each

Wontonimo: atm

Scarfield: gn gn

Default avatar.png Guillermo.: hello world

Wendys: yes

Wendys: hello mr guillermo

Default avatar.png Guillermo.: who are you mr wendys

Default avatar.png Guillermo.: you are beautiful

Wendys: yes

Default avatar.png Just_Spark: I'M DONE WITH THIS GAME 'Power of Thor'

Wontonimo: and by done, do you mean you KILLED IT?

Default avatar.png middleverse: am i doing something wrong, it's printing nothing

Default avatar.png middleverse: am i suppose to return

Default avatar.png middleverse: or am i suppose to print()

Wontonimo: pint

Wontonimo: print

Default avatar.png TheBrutalKnight_e654: Print

Wontonimo: (after the pint)

Wontonimo: what lang are you using middleverse ?

Default avatar.png middleverse: gotcha

Default avatar.png middleverse: thanks it worked

Default avatar.png middleverse: python

Wontonimo: you can also print to standard error using print("debug",file=sys.stderr,flush=True)

Wontonimo: in python. The standard error will be displayed in the output but won't be considered part of your solution. it's really handy for debugging

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: python is eas

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: y

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: why not do something more challenging

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: like JavaScript?

Notgoodatcoding5: Hi

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: python has a lot of built in functions

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: oh wait

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: wrong chat tab

Default avatar.png YodaLightsabr: lmfao

Andriamanitra: as if javascript didn't have a lot of built-in functions :p

likki1811: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/16084212331a309ab8be4b56f79753b1893c01d

IaMiNteLLIGENT: I dont think shortest mode is practical becuz 2 launguages could be as efficient as possible and one of them would be shorter than th other, making it unfair... here is a link to an example: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/report/160846793ad19de9f55d2d44d3ed52777aef602