Chat:World/2021-01-29
VizGhar: Any contributor here? I have 2 sets of images for sprite animation. one is idle animation, other is attack animation. Problem is, that attack animation has wider images and it looks like the API scales images to match some square
VizGhar: so my character is much smaller while in "attack" mode
Hedayat_Farahi: wasssup beautiful people
Hedayat_Farahi: fuck ya'll
VizGhar: Solved my problem :| assets were incorrect
Carsonfanboy: i am normaly only used to python and now im trying to do smth in c++
Carsonfanboy: can smbd tell my how to define or change an variable?
hoistbypetard: you have to declare it before you can do anything with it
hoistbypetard: that means you either tell the compiler its type or tell the compiler to guess the type using the auto keyword
hoistbypetard: so if you want foo to be zero,
Carsonfanboy: so i can change it at any time?
hoistbypetard: as long as its in scope
hoistbypetard: and you didn't declare it const
hoistbypetard: running through some of the examples here: https://runestone.academy/runestone/books/published/cpp4python/index.html might help you
Carsonfanboy: one more question:
Carsonfanboy: if i do: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/3fb313d1-aba9-4d6f-a71f-eaec6cb88e83
Carsonfanboy: than i do: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/ed96550b-7dae-410d-b5c4-f2c1daca77c6
Angecide: is it possible, with some clever tricks, to extract opponents and play against them offline or can this only be done inside CG?
Angecide: in order to validate my bot in fast succession
kovi: https://github.com/s-vivien/CGBenchmark
kovi: (even though i havent used it yet)
philRG: thanks
tutubalin: "Given a backward quote from Yoda, rewrite it in an understandable way."
Banned this CoC puzzle should be
DaNinja: <(°.°)>
depthzer0: In our hearts Yoda because
depthzer0: He is grandpa of Cheburashka
depthzer0: https://tlum.ru/uploads/106b23d858b5b2c8b95add8eb4b37e3884f644060f4cdace95d42a8c9fcb7fc4.jpeg
tutubalin: oh, i misunderstood the statement :(
tutubalin: it was not that bad
NobodyGuy: python code is so... short! :)
tutubalin: NobodyGuy Ruby is shorter
tutubalin: GolfScript is shorter than Ruby
Andriamanitra: depends on what you're doing
Andriamanitra: if you want to reverse a string "string"[::-1] is shorter than "string".reverse
tutubalin: Jelly is shorter than GolfScript
zizo1337: reverse is faster to type, to me atleast
Rockstar555: shortcut is better
Rockstar555: i don't like shortest mode
Satzmann666: Shortest is the best
Gebes: Sad java noises @Satzmann666
Tobu123: hello
PaulCaron: guys why you are toxic ???
PaulCaron: var mountainH = 0;// hauteur de la montagne var altMax = 0;// altitude maximalevar mountainIndex = 0; // index de la montagne à detruire// game loop while (true){ for (var i = 0; i < 8; i++){mountainH = parseInt(readline()); //Lecture de la hauteur de la montagne d’index i// complétez ici}print(mountainIndex); // The index of the mountain to fire on.}
struct: o..o
eulerscheZahl: calm down satan
BlaiseEbuth: Already kicked him on #fr
eulerscheZahl: i know
BlaiseEbuth: And so ?
1400179: Are checkers endgame with equal number of kings on each side proven to be forced draws?
1400179: If both players play perfectly
eulerscheZahl: MSmits that's for you
struct: if no king can be taken on the next move I think its a draw yes
1400179: Sure seems like it but I don't know theory
AntiSquid: PaulCaron learn to meme more eloquently!
1400179: Much more interesting game AI wise than I thought though
1400179: Definitely better than othello
1400179: How to throw a game: https://www.codingame.com/replay/525331262
AntiSquid: You've gotta love crab.
1400179: F.
BlaiseEbuth: :crab:
1400179: Dealing with endgame shuffling is pretty challenging
1400179: Definitely a good step before chess
1400179: Also is the game bugged? I thought jump + promotion + capture backward was legal...
1400179: Did I play this game wrong all along when I was a kid?
eulerscheZahl: there are different versions of the game
1400179: :scream:
1400179: Where's the FIDD when you need it
Cybersick: Hello Everyone
1400179: Do I need to throw away 10 hours of training by fixing it though :thinking:
1400179: Hi
jacek: FIDD?
1400179: FIDE for checkers? Random guess
jacek: as for 3-repetition, i was thinking to add it to checkers and marking it as something slightly-better-than-lose so i would force to look for more
1400179: Yeah I'm surprised that's not standard either
1400179: It feels like it should be easy to solve endgames with some domain knowledge though
jacek: and in variation when you can jump backwards, in this case you wont get promoted
1400179: That's weird
jacek: as a kid, did you also played with optional jumps? :v
1400179: Not that I remember
1400179: Sounds like a lame variation though
jacek: oh right, you can choose which jump. in international variation you must take jump with most pieces
1400179: So many variations!
jacek: eeyup
jacek: i still need to fix my bot. i copy pasted some bitboard implementation, but it errors with cycle jumps
1400179: :frown:
jacek: move generation is hard here :c
struct: Cant really find anything on same number of kings
1400179: Then MSmits is my last hope
PatrickMcGinnisII: I can't believe my minimax on chess is timing out on depth 3
1400179: Exponentials are a b
struct: This version doesnt have the 7 move draw rule on 2 kings vs 1 king right?
1400179: Don't think so
1400179: Call me judgemental but expectations are a bit low when the color given at init is not even correct :p
cooldude420: Hello there!
1400179: Hi
cooldude420: Can you please assist me with my code? I would very much appreciate it!
DJNinjaSpoon_37b8: :boy_tone5:
1400179: Maybe someone has time
struct: ask the question cooldude420
cooldude420: If someone does, it would be very helpful! Thank you!
cooldude420: Woah how do you get red text? That is very cool.
struct: What problem are you having, what are you solving?
struct: Just type the person username
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: Hi guys, i will have an interview in few days. Do you guys recomend anything that related to data manipulation?
cooldude420: Ohh I see, struct. I am currently working on Mars Lander in episode 2, using C++.
struct: I haven't solved that one sorry
1400179: Define data manipulation
cooldude420: It is alright, I appreciate the help!
cooldude420: I hope you all have a good one.
1400179: Cheers
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: reCurse, Anything really, i just want to practice general things. The company works with the financial market and they refine and display the data into an app.
jacek: you can ask away here, maybe someone solved it and will help you
1400179: Did they give any hint about the tools and techs they use? That would be a start
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: Nothing really in deep, they are useing React JS
1400179: Is this a frontend or backend position?
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: for this coding interview will be forntend
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: frontend
1400179: Ok
1400179: Then maybe lookup tutorials and stuff on react?
1400179: Look into simple CRUD apps
1400179: It's hard to tell otherwise what kind of interview they'll have, there's a lot of kinds
1400179: So go with what you know
jetlow345: Hi guys, I am new to programming !!
jacek: hi, new to programming
Manuel-Martin-Jukisz: reCurse, than you, i already ask for the kind of interview they will make.
jetlow345: Normally how you guys practice coding?
BlaiseEbuth: I don't. I'm just here for trolling.
ErrorRazor: How do I have one puzzle solved in Go, never touched that language
PatrickMcGinnisII: reCurse could you add a + to the UCI notation in chess for check condition for the moves sent? it would help wood2 from having so many draws.
TBali: ErrorRazor - solving Onboarding in Go should not be a problem, hint is provided in IDE
ErrorRazor: I'm not saying I want to solve one, I'm saying that the site thinks I have although I haven't
PatrickMcGinnisII: glhf life calls
TBali: strange,
TBali: Here you can which puzzle you solved in shich language (at least what CG thinks :-) )
TBali: https://chadok.info/codingame/
TBali: *check
TBali: **which
ErrorRazor: Oh yeah, Onboarding was the tutorial and I did it in Go. Totally forgot lol
jacek: now do it in Chess
ErrorRazor: I'm gonna do it in DnD
jacek: so far no one did puzzle of the week
eulerscheZahl: no time, busy with topcoder
TBali: Pluralsight's skill assessment is seriously flawed
Wontonimo: well, my first contribution is about to expire in 50 min ... if anyone here is feeling generous in time, please consider reviewing it https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/5996057237509a508857acda4426be02fc01
eulerscheZahl: meh, you can submit it again when time is over
eulerscheZahl: (story of my less popular puzzles)
Wontonimo: good to know, thanks
MSmits: reCurse, you still here?
MSmits: are you looking to write an endgame book for in your live bot or for offline to train with?
MSmits: and i assume it's checkers, didn't read the entire convo
1400179: Not necessarily, I was more curious about endgame theory
eulerscheZahl: checkers, yes
MSmits: ah
MSmits: well there's two kinds
MSmits: WLD and DTM
1400179: Have the intuition that equal number of kings means forced draw
1400179: With perfect play
MSmits: win/loss/draw is most common, but it's useless on CG
eulerscheZahl: isn't DTM a racing league?
MSmits: Depth to mate, means the number of turns to win, for the given state
MSmits: this is what you need for CG checkers
1400179: Are you talking about some kind of tablebase?
MSmits: yes
1400179: Ah ok, I was more interested into the theory itself
1400179: But that's fine too I suppose
1400179: I just don't think it fits CG constraints either way
MSmits: well the theory i know is how to generate the db
1400179: Ok
1400179: But you haven't examined it per se
MSmits: you can fit a 3 piece db
MSmits: I generated parts of it offline
1400179: How big is a 3 piece db
MSmits: hmm, not sure exactly but it fits. Every piece you add makes it 10-20 times larger
MSmits: roughly
MSmits: 4 is way too big
1400179: Well I'm kind of using some space already eh
MSmits: it could be that the step from 3 to 4 makes it go from negligible to way too mcuh
1400179: At least it could start providing an answer to my original question
1400179: If 2vs2 is forced draw
1400179: That's something
MSmits: 2 piece vs 2 piece?
MSmits: it's not
1400179: 2k vs 2k
MSmits: it depends on the state
1400179: Quiet state
MSmits: hmm
MSmits: you should probably just generate the db offline to be sure
MSmits: you can easily check it after that
MSmits: you need retrograde analysis
MSmits: you know how this works?
1400179: The big lines
1400179: Never coded it
1400179: Feels a lot like DP
MSmits: let me get my code, sec
1400179: This game is a lot more fun than I thought
1400179: Should have done it earlier
eulerscheZahl: do you want to write a classic non-NN bot now?
1400179: No not at all lol
1400179: But the number of fixes and improvements I made from it is monstruous
MSmits: crap this is complicated, i saw binomial coefficients just now
1400179: I could probably make my other NN bots much stronger now
eulerscheZahl: you are already the unbeaten #1 in breakthrough
1400179: Your point?
eulerscheZahl: calm down, give us a chance
1400179: I couldn't be bothered much investigating othello losses
1400179: But checkers losses now that's fun
eulerscheZahl: you see what's going on
1400179: Yeah
MSmits: yeah checkers is a much more fun game to watch
eulerscheZahl: othello: *flip* - ooh
MSmits: I'm currently running my 3 piece endbook in release mode in VS, probably should have compiled it first, it's slow
MSmits: so yeah, you can definitely not generate the book in first 1s
MSmits: like you can in oware
1400179: Would have been surprising
struct: not even 2 pieces db?
1400179: Isn't that useless?
struct: yes
Wontonimo: even better, 1 piece db
1400179: I'm surprised at how balanced checkers seems to be in general, and spare me the solved game crap :)
MSmits: the difficult part of endgame db for checkers (it's worse in chess) is that you need to enumerate combinations of types in the right order. So All kings first, then slowly move in steps to all "men"
MSmits: king states come after men states, so they are a more advanced endgame
MSmits: so you need to calculate them first
1400179: I think you can do all kings db
1400179: Seems like more useful
MSmits: sure, if you have to choose it is
MSmits: but you could have 1 m piece 2 kings vs 2 kings
MSmits: might still be a draw
1400179: The tradeoff between space/time and usefulness seems a no brainer
Wontonimo: with 100ms response cap, I don't think it is "solved" anymore
1400179: Yeah but maybe your search would avoid those situations by relying on the king db
1400179: Going straight for the juicy win
jacek: or just mark 3-fold-repetition as almost loss
1400179: That's orthogonal
jacek: what does it means
jacek: sounds mathy
1400179: It is
jacek: :Scream:
1400179: Means unrelated independent concern
1400179: In this case
MSmits: reCurse, the end game timer means you need to not just know win/draw/loss, but pick the state that wins the quickest. some endgame sequences are 100+ turns
MSmits: some wins might be draws on CG
jacek: or just download some 7p endgames and train on them
MSmits: thats why i meant DTM db instead of WLD
1400179: Wonder if the tradeoff is worth it
1400179: Gamble on the move timer for bigger table
MSmits: this is the best source on checkers btw:
MSmits: http://www.fierz.ch/download.php
MSmits: also information on generating endgame db
1400179: Thanks
jacek: depends how often those 100+ wins occurs
MSmits: not dtm i think, they explain WLd, but you can figure out dtm from that
1400179: Uh? They have 5 piece but not less?
1400179: tbh I'd gamble on the move timer
jacek: maybe its too trivial
MSmits: possibly 5 piece contains all lesser ones too?
1400179: Could store a 4x bigger table that way? Easily
MSmits: remember, it's a factor of 10-20 each time
jacek: btw. draught folks just discovered nnue and try it for their draughts engines
1400179: Might just make the difference between one more piece, or it fitting at all
struct: Its a shame that lidraughts doesnt have tablebase on analysis board
MSmits: biggest WLD db are 10 pieces for checkers
MSmits: DTM is 7, but not publicly available
1400179: And on top of that
1400179: I can use those big dbs for training
1400179: Yummy
MSmits: just be careful about the timer. The greater the db, the longer the longest possible game from each state is
MSmits: if i remember correctly 7 piece already had a 250 turn endgame in there somewhere
1400179: The training will pick that up
1400179: All good
MSmits: as long as you put the turn timer into the training it's fine
MSmits: people seem to ignore that for oware
MSmits: i guess its different because you can win on a non-ended game there
1400179: Sorry for how it sounds like, but crap I hope I don't end up 100% before doing that lol
1400179: Motivation goes down after
MSmits: what do you mean 100%?
jacek: like bt? :unamused:
1400179: 100% win
jacek: though i won once!
eulerscheZahl: 100% winrate
MSmits: do you mean rank 1?
MSmits: oh
jacek: and i dont have timer for oware :o
MSmits: well... I could... nvm :P
1400179: :unamused:
jacek: dont keep it to yourself
jacek: open yourself to us
MSmits: hehe no need
MSmits: I'm working on game of drones now
1400179: Sorry for my harsh reaction the other day
1400179: Still think it's a D move
MSmits: need to get gold, my students are silver
MSmits: it's allright
1400179: But should have been less of a D myself
jacek: its all because of D lang
MSmits: don't worry about it reCurse
MSmits: I was not intending to stick it to you, but i understand why it would seem that way.
struct: astro or trictrac here?
1400179: ?
trictrac: yes
1400179: Oh
trictrac: hello struct
struct: hi tric trac, I was wondering about the starting positions
struct: Should I allow for starts on the middle?
struct: For a piece to start
struct: Currently its always symetric and I avoid corners
trictrac: yes fully random only symetrie for the 2 players
struct: Ok, currently is not fully random
struct: I decided to make a player have a piece on each 4x4 space
trictrac: thats good too
trictrac: good idea you can keep that
struct: Astro suggested to not place pieces next to each other
MSmits: Do you mean forced starts, or random starts?
MSmits: it's different
jacek: random
struct: random
MSmits: ah
jacek: random, the biggest enemy of MSmits
1400179: Forced starts too, as long as they're numerous
MSmits: nah, it saves me from my obsession of using a particular avenue to win. I prefer not having the option
MSmits: it's cleaner, i do a game till i run out of ideas, then i can move on
1400179: Is amazon interesting to analyze? Didn't seem like it to me at first glance
trictrac: so it's not an option to have random for MSmits tranquillity :slight_smile:
MSmits: no, please do have random for my tranquility :P
MSmits: btw, i blame miarem and reCurse for starting this on uttt :P That was the gateway drug
1400179: I only started it because I realized (at least) Nagrarok was doing it
MSmits: he must have been doing it poorly though, his book didnt go deep at all
1400179: Was still good enough at the time
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: i never noticed it
1400179: Then I went to the dark side and built a pipeline to continuously batch games against top 10 and build a gigantic counterbook
1400179: I reformed since
MSmits: oh, you went much further than me then, I never got around to automating from replays
MSmits: i just did it manually
MSmits: well the meta mcts was automated, manual wasnt a big deal because it takes hours to counter a single move
MSmits: mmh i guess with those 10 cores you used though....
1400179: 12
MSmits: even better
1400179: Ran mcts for a million iteration on each losing move
MSmits: ohh so it's not actually running full games?
MSmits: thats different
MSmits: I run thousands of games to counter a move
MSmits: depending on the game, between 10 and 100 ms per turn
1400179: Worked well enough :P
1400179: And it timed nicely with the rate of games from batch
MSmits: yeah there's many ways to do it i guess
MSmits: miarem ran games with extremely long turns
MSmits: I thought you mostly did this to obtain information to train a NN
1400179: No I did this out of spite
MSmits: ahh
MSmits: well i guess it would seem annoying when others do it to you
MSmits: to me it's 2 things really. On some games it's just exciting to me, to see what the best moves are. Add to that increased winrate on the leaderboard
MSmits: but on other games that first part is nonsense
MSmits: for example othello
1400179: Othello is like a mini uttt
jacek: or oware
MSmits: actually uttt is way more interesting to me than othello
MSmits: i never went very far analyzing othello theoretically
1400179: Sacrilegeous
MSmits: I have written so many coordinate systems and such for uttt, to better hash stuff
MSmits: i should say board representations
MSmits: I even have 1 that fits in 127 bit
MSmits: yavalath is interesting to me in the same way. Oware, partially, mostly the endgame stuff was fun to come up with
MSmits: I'm still running a book generator for oware btw... just so you know. I won't be turning it off for this game. Oware and yavalath are the only games i am booking currently
1400179: I'll stay clear from those
MSmits: sure :)
1400179: Not sure what I'm doing next actually
MSmits: after checkers youmean?
1400179: Probably still got some fun with checkers endgame
1400179: Yeah
1400179: If I do chess I may vanish for good
MSmits: if you dont care about playercount, a dependable leaderboard etc and you only want an interesting game, i have some options
jacek: :notebook:
1400179: I only care about having good varied opponents
Westicles: samegame
1400179: If I do chess I'll have thousands of them
MSmits: hmm i was gonna say twixt, but not enough varied opponents currently
1400179: And some I won't ever beat
MSmits: onitama is a great game,
1400179: I'm not sure I enjoy the move mechanic though
1400179: Looked nice at first then I realized it might just become tactics tactics
MSmits: whats that
jacek: like chess
Westicles: Another indian deleted...
MSmits: you just said tactics twice
1400179: Should I have said it thrice?
1400179: Like othello is 99% tactics and 1% eval
1400179: imo
jacek: huh
MSmits: ok i thought you were saying something profound by saying tactics twice, but you just wanted to say, mostly about tactics
Westicles: https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/604966d6b8bb9b27ed1e2668aec89656d894
1400179: Me saying something profound :huh:
MSmits: not sure what the problem is with mostly about tactics
1400179: Just becomes a search race
1400179: Like uttt, whoever searches more
1400179: Though I may have broken it, maybe
MSmits: not sure
1400179: ?
MSmits: with uttt, you're the strongest bot currently. But every time a stronger bot came around, we thought that was it
1400179: I know for a fact that I search way less than the others around
MSmits: if i submitted my current bot a year ago it would seem unbeatable
MSmits: oh
1400179: Won't give the exact number but still
MSmits: sure
MSmits: if thats what you meant, then you're completely right
MSmits: but I am of the opinion uttt isnt all search either
MSmits: I prune a lot of moves
MSmits: and use quite a few heuristics
1400179: Then your opinion is going with my result
kovi: for the record: i failed to reach legend...without heuristic
1400179: I was convinced you couldn't beat a bot that searches at least twice as much because there isn't enough to read
kovi: even with uttt heuristic comes faster than speed
1400179: But I was wrong
MSmits: oh, yeah i figured that out a while ago losing to bots with only 60k rollouts
MSmits: then they shared their heuristics
MSmits: karlis o also shared a bit a while ago
1400179: Don't stick to the 2x too much, could be 4x or 10x
MSmits: still have to try this
1400179: I'm sure you couldn't beat a bot with 10x search
1400179: Even with those heuristics
MSmits: yeah i dont think so either
Angecide: is it true karliso has 400k rollout round 2?
MSmits: but the window of performance is only about a factor of 2 wide at the top
MSmits: between the slowest and fastest
MSmits: Angecide no
MSmits: he said so at one time
1400179: Yeah but that's not my point
MSmits: but he was wrong, miscalculated
MSmits: it's about 220 i think
struct: he incremented counter twice
struct: Same mistake I did on STC
Angecide: 220 still immensely impressive
MSmits: you still have to know how he counts this
1400179: ^
MSmits: if you expand a node and do a rollout from each child, you get much more
1400179: As soon as you introduce heuristics those numbers are incomparable
MSmits: for example, i simply assume everyone uses teccles
MSmits: you can get far deeper into the search
MSmits: this affects simcount, though i am not 100% sure how
MSmits: it's a safe assumption, because even if they dont use teccles, it's probably going to be a worse move
kovi: but teccles ifself is just make narrower path isnt it?
MSmits: yeah, that means you expand to 1 child instead of 9
MSmits: i have some more heuristics like that
1400179: Alright broken record incoming
1400179: Number of rollouts is a joke because it doesn't take into account game length
MSmits: yes, games end faster if you rollout smart
kovi: true. if you manage to win early...
MSmits: also if you rollout smart, the calculations are slower
MSmits: so its hard to gauge the result properly
Angecide: ye I think jacek does like 15k rollout round 2, and he is 14th or something
MSmits: for people just getting started with uttt and not worried about heuristics and pruning and all that, it's a fine metric
jacek: but i may count it differently than others
MSmits: those bots are all the same basically
MSmits: jacek, yeah maybe you count expansions and then simulate multiple times
MSmits: in 1 expansion
jacek: i count only when i do rollout
jacek: ohai
MSmits: rollout is also a vague term, it's used for the entire process from selection to end of simulation and also used for a single random rollout after expansion
MSmits: but since you can do multiple random rollouts from 1 expansion its hard to say what you mean
jacek: i mean as playout, simulation
MSmits: ah ok
Angecide: maybe depth is a better metric?
MSmits: not with mcts
MSmits: it's going to be all over the place
jacek: mcts is asymmetric
MSmits: that works well with minimax
1400179: cough ab
owent3877: what are you talking about?
MSmits: i should say ab?
jacek: ultimate tic tac toe
kovi: hmm, teccles is not the strongest heuristics...
MSmits: what is stronger then?
jacek: i use teccles only for some openings as 1p
1400179: ab makes it incomparable again
owent3877: im working MIME Type
MSmits: ah ok
kovi: i have just added another variation on avoid 9b
kovi: 9board
MSmits: you mean to avoid giving away a free move?
kovi: yes
MSmits: yeah thats fairly important and it could be stronger than teccles, but it's not as reliable
MSmits: you need to tweak it a lot
1400179: If ab prunes a ton of nodes because my eval is crap, doesn't matter if I reach depth 10 in 1 ms
owent3877: have you tried code.org?
1400179: That depth 6 in 100ms might be better
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: does it actually prune more with a bad eval?
jacek: with eval = 0 you prune very much
MSmits: i would expect the opposite
1400179: Wouldn't work in my example would it
1400179: Not the point
MSmits: no i got it, eval matters
MSmits: also when you introduce move ordering and history heuristic and all that
1400179: Just specific cases of ab
1400179: As soon as ab is there
1400179: Forget metrics
MSmits: hmm you can use the metric of counting the number of applied moves
MSmits: it's not perfect, but it is something
1400179: Small improvement
1400179: The metric that matters is wdl
kovi: wdl?
1400179: win/draw/loss
MSmits: it matters for the leaderboard sure. But I find it very hard to judge things by winrate these days, when a single move made can change it so much
1400179: You write a bot to play a game
1400179: At the end of the day that's what you optimize for
MSmits: yea
owent3877: what are you working on?
owent3877: in doing Coders Strike Back
jacek: need some help with CSB?
Angecide: I heard it is all about smitsimax
kovi: not for very top
eulerscheZahl: hi kovi are you playing topcoder?
Wontonimo: hey reCurse, thanks for the link to the MCTS review. it was a good read
kovi: hello euler! no, i have lost motivation there
jacek: the survey?
1400179: You're welcome
eulerscheZahl: TC in general or just that game?
DomiKo: which TC game?
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/myiwKh2
MSmits: reCurse if i did it correctly: 3 pieces state count: 199520
eulerscheZahl: https://www.topcoder.com/challenges/b846362a-218e-4a3d-b86c-3d38f472e199?tab=details
MSmits: too many it seems
1400179: How many bits per state
MSmits: I'm afraid you need a byte
1400179: Hmm
MSmits: because it's not WLD
1400179: Might fit still
MSmits: with a byte you could go up to 255 turns left till win
MSmits: total state count: 6408836
MSmits: 4 pieces
MSmits: so you see the size of the jump
MSmits: between dbs
1400179: Yeah 4 pieces would need some shortcut
1400179: Ah but you're doing pieces
1400179: What about kings
MSmits: basically what you would need then is all 2 piece + part of 3 piece
MSmits: at least thats the order in which you generate
1400179: Ohh
1400179: Why didn't I think of this before
1400179: You don't even need the whole db
MSmits: well the earlier dbs are negligible in size
1400179: Even 4 pieces could fit
MSmits: but yeah within size 3, you can do a part
MSmits: how so
1400179: You only need anchors roughly spaced by the depth of your search
MSmits: hmm
MSmits: but most states could still happen
MSmits: so you would just randomly select a bunch of them?
1400179: Not randomly
1400179: Semi-randomly
1400179: Pick a random state, exclude everything reachable in 5 moves, rinse and repeat
MSmits: seems difficult to do that properly
1400179: I don't think so :)
MSmits: but states are reachable by multiple paths
1400179: You just need *a* path to win
1400179: And you don't need the path to lose
MSmits: that works for opening books, not sure if it works that well for endgame books when there are so many states to start from
1400179: It's a tradeoff
1400179: But a good one I think
MSmits: worth a try
MSmits: oh btw i was wrong, you dont have 255 turns left to win, you need to include the loss as well
MSmits: so +127 or -127 in an sbyte
MSmits: +100 would mean 100 turns till you win
1400179: Like I said, I don't see the point to including the loss
MSmits: -100 would mean 100 turns till you lose
MSmits: well i dont mean that
MSmits: i mean you look up from the perpective of the person who's turn it is
MSmits: unless you would only look it up on 1 of the 2 players
1400179: Yeah, and with my hypothesis you don't need the perspective of the loser
MSmits: right cuz thats not one of the anchors
MSmits: you'd have to check what the longest path to win is for your selected state. Probably you need 8 bit, maybe 7. 6 is too little i think
1400179: If anchors work there's not much to worry about number of bits per state
MSmits: allright
MSmits: so basically you're using this to avoid repetition, but you dont mind that it doesnt always cut short your search immediately
MSmits: sometimes requiring 3-4 more plies
MSmits: because your anchor isnt at that particular depth, but a little deeper
1400179: Yeah, you still have search to leverage
1400179: If you know you're in an endgame state, that's a lot
MSmits: well you have to think about the fact that the book isnt just used from an endgame state
1400179: Sure
MSmits: it's also used from a pre-endgame state, from which the search enters endgames
1400179: I'm assuming training will take care of most of what matters there
MSmits: makes sense
MSmits: i still think selecting those anchors is not gonna be easy. I already think generating the endgamebook itself is pretty messy. Now you also need to be smart abou tit
1400179: I'm not worried
MSmits: well let me know if you succeed. I dont need the details, but it would be cool to know if something like that works in general
1400179: Yeah if I get there will do
MSmits: kk
1400179: I'll start by plugging that 7 piece db in my training
MSmits: be careful about the fact that all those DB on that site are WLD
MSmits: DTM is something you have to generate yourself, but you can use their code
1400179: So how do they resolve endgame with WLD
MSmits: you mean, without infinite repetition. I think there exist some heuristics as well. But i am not well versed in checkers theory
1400179: There has to be otherwise you can't prove it
MSmits: I know how to mate a king with a rook and king in chess... but doing stuff like that in checkers is different
MSmits: reCurse yes, but thats retrograde analysis, its very expensive, not done in a live game
1400179: No I know
1400179: But for an engine to use it
1400179: It can't just say "oh btw it's a proven win"
MSmits: thats right, so i think it uses WLD to cut short the search when possible and then when it actually has to play out the win, it uses heuristics to end the game
MSmits: probably taking a lot more time than the DTM result
1400179: Hmm
MSmits: chinook does not play perfect DTM
MSmits: it will take more time to win than necessary
1400179: Oh so simplification maybe
1400179: For checkers especially since it's the win condition
MSmits: the thing is, as long as you use a heuristic that will speed up the end of the game, you can always still lookup the WLD value to make sure you dont accidentally lose, so whatever you do it's safe
1400179: Yeah makes sense
MSmits: but on CG it's different, because of the 300 turn thing
struct: this happens with syzygy chess table bases too, a forced mate is a forced mate
MSmits: WLD db can make you lose
1400179: Never gave tablebases too much thought
struct: doesnt matter if its 2 or 3 moves
1400179: Yeah but I'm gambling on moves left not to matter
MSmits: i should say wld can make you draw sry
1400179: Or at least not as much as having a bigger tb
MSmits: it doesnt matter for small db
MSmits: the larger the db, the longer the longest possible game
1400179: ofc
MSmits: and I think you're right that whats currently on the leaderboard is going to be wrecked either way by a NN with an endgame book
1400179: Well with my flawed training and improvements I get rank 3
1400179: Top 2 will require more work, but already need to restart training with all the fixes
MSmits: my bot is an early playout termination bot that basically just counts kings and men with a param
MSmits: dont compare with that :P
MSmits: a few guys above me, top 3 is good i think
jacek: oh im above you
MSmits: doesnt surprise me
MSmits: I did actually spend a lot of time on checkers, but mostly to test a minimax version vs a ept version
1400179: ept?
jacek: i just half-assed NN and it works
MSmits: it's basically the way you do mcts with a NN
jacek: early playout termination
1400179: Ah
MSmits: but with a typical eval
MSmits: its what i use in most games now
MSmits: i guess if i ever do a nn, i can just plug that in :P
jacek: i could train it more but its bugged and im too dumb to copy paste workable bitboard implementation
jacek: every github project has gazillion abstracts
jacek: why they dont make hackatonish code
Cybersick: Why codingame server is always empty
MSmits: i'm not sure if i have a great sim either. It's a bit hacky with a bunch of pdep pext and all that
Cybersick: And there are too few people
jacek: clash?
Cybersick: Yes
Cybersick: Hello ?
jacek: maybe its not this time of day
jacek: if there are only few people, there will be bots in their place
MSmits: reCurse, i think it's about 15k with just kings in 3 piece db
struct: 15k states?
MSmits: yeah
1400179: Woo
MSmits: there's a lot of ways to have 2 kings and 1 "man"
jacek: at this point if one side doesnt have king its loses, doesnt he?
1400179: So 4k is definitely in reach
MSmits: or 1 king and 2 men
jacek: thats so gay
struct: What is the longest state out of the 3 kings one MSmits?
struct: ah wait
struct: Forget it
MSmits: i didnt finish my retrograde calculator, tis is just counting states
MSmits: i needed to do this first, to decide how far to go with it
Angecide: on the topic of intrinsics, I have found great use for pdep to find n'th significant bit, but why would anyone use pext? It just extracts the mask and shifts it all to the right, what would be the usecase for this?
MSmits: project is on hold anyways
MSmits: Angecide lookups
MSmits: you take a pattern from the board
elePHPant: Hosting a meetup Monday in which we are working on the genome sequencing problem. https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/genome-sequencing
MSmits: say 6 bits, spread out
MSmits: compress them to the first 6 bits
MSmits: then have a small lookupindex
MSmits: very useful in yavalath
MSmits: where win patterns are spread out over 61 bit
jacek: and probably in bishop moves
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: jacek uses it for ntuples i assume
eulerscheZahl: whoo!
MSmits: whoo to you as well eulerscheZahl
jacek: nah
eulerscheZahl: thanks oreshnik
MSmits: why not?
jacek: when i use rows, i just shift and mask
jacek: for squares, i also use some hacks
MSmits: oh right, i guess the patterns are simple in othello
jacek: my pc doesnt have pext/pdep
Westicles: Euler approved just in time for the weekend
MSmits: ohh which one
MSmits: he had multiple
Westicles: tryangle catch
MSmits: ahh the pretty one
MSmits: I love it, but it seems hard
eulerscheZahl: so blockout isn't pretty?
MSmits: i didnt have a good look at it :P
MSmits: i actually studied tryangle a bit
MSmits: seems doable till you get the option of making new paths
MSmits: thats what makes it seem hard, but definitely worth trying out
elePHPant: Anyone interested in joining me on monday to work on the code sequencing problem?
elePHPant: Meetup via zoom
eulerscheZahl: wanted to keep you busy for at least 10 days ;)
MSmits: yeah that would definitely have worked
kovi: yay, i try to catch toad
eulerscheZahl: and kovi is beating me already :(
elePHPant: We are going to watch brief videos about DNA and then jump into the problem
MSmits: ah well
elePHPant: everyone will have the opportunity to share screen and talk about their code
MSmits: biohacking?
eulerscheZahl: monday... we have jobs
elePHPant: Monday evening
jacek: hopefully not php jobs :v
elePHPant: 6pm eastern
MSmits: we already have a virus out there, dont make more please
elePHPant: lol
elePHPant: and lol
kovi: so many games for wood4?
eulerscheZahl: i'm not even allowed to install zoom on the company computer, IT isn't happy about their data privacy :D
eulerscheZahl: maybe because everyone submitting at once
eulerscheZahl: so you get your games + other games
elePHPant: love it when devs demote PHP, it means more work for me
kovi: oh, true
MSmits: I hope they didn't go by rumor on that one, didnt they fix their issues? Zoom is definitely the nicest program
eulerscheZahl: and community contributions are weird in general, not a classic wood
eulerscheZahl: i never tried zoom
MSmits: wish i had zoom for teaching
eulerscheZahl: we have MS Teams
MSmits: we use google meet, but no breakout rooms yet :(
elePHPant: teaching - thats part of what we do in the meetup
MSmits: i use teams as well
MSmits: for colleagues
MSmits: for some reason my school uses both microsoft and google
kovi: oh, boss is also on submit
kovi: never seen that
eulerscheZahl: yeah, bosses get more matches then regular players
elePHPant: just in case someone is interested ... https://www.meetup.com/social-coding-virtual
eulerscheZahl: wow, that's midnight in my timezone
elePHPant: Ouch
elePHPant: where is everyone from?
eulerscheZahl: smits can tell you how realistic it is that i will join :D
eulerscheZahl: central Europe
eulerscheZahl: hover over our avatars to see the location
elePHPant: Oh ok, I feel like the "odd PHP guy from the United States"
elePHPant: LOL
jacek: oO
elePHPant: oO
jacek: do you feel irrelephant
eulerscheZahl: odd PHP guy from US is taken already
eulerscheZahl: that's PatrickMcGuinessII
Westicles: you beat me to it
Westicles: unless he can top the sex swing...
struct: Euler did you manage to find a fix for the display bug on blockout?
eulerscheZahl: no :(
JLukeSkywalker: pinball
eulerscheZahl: my fix is not looking too closely
JLukeSkywalker: we need a pinball game
struct: From what I understood I think the invisible pieces
struct: also can have an impact on hit
struct: But I dont know anything about 3d rendering
struct: So I could be wrong
struct: on it*
eulerscheZahl: hm, i could try to play with it: if invisible move faaaaar off
struct: yeah
eulerscheZahl: but not today anymore
struct: Doesnt need to be very far
struct: Just not on the board
kovi: no promotion till boss settles i guess
kovi: westicles at negative score :o
Westicles: Did I win?
kovi: none
eulerscheZahl: promotion popup is working \o/
eulerscheZahl: you can't test that in the demo environment
kovi: hmm im not that good with attack
eulerscheZahl: i outcommented mine
kovi: me2
kovi: not sure if it is better or worse
MSmits: that's weird, tryangle catch opened on php
MSmits: i guess i have no choice now
MSmits: time to learn php
eulerscheZahl: did you test CotR in PHP?
kovi: wood3 boss beating me
MSmits: eulerscheZahl do you mean cgfunge, thats the one where you recommended php
eulerscheZahl: i got a perfect 100% vs boss
MSmits: never did it in cotr
eulerscheZahl: i mean code of the rings
eulerscheZahl: as you did that recently
MSmits: ohh now i get you
eulerscheZahl: IDE saves your last language
MSmits: you mean it stayed on php
kovi: yeah, i see my old weakness
MSmits: it's C#
MSmits: and after that i did GoD, also C#
MSmits: so i dont understand
MSmits: maybe Patrick hacked me
kovi: wow, top20 uttt....
MSmits: do you search kovi? Or some heuristic?
MSmits: wait you're working on two multis at the same time now?
Westicles: When he says CG hacked his GPU, are we just politely quiet or is there something to it?
Angecide: insane climb on uttt kovi
kovi: nah, i tested catchangle earlier
MSmits: i dont know, doesnt webgl use your gpu, doesnt mean it's hacking does it?
eulerscheZahl: well done kovi UTTT was my nightmare on legend leagues
kovi: uttt lucky run maybe
kovi: yeah, i failed with pure vanilla mcts
eulerscheZahl: there isn't that much luck
eulerscheZahl: some randomness at the top
eulerscheZahl: but top20 is top20 and not top50
MSmits: luck happens when bots are similar in strength 10-30 might be similar
MSmits: but 50 is definitely worse
kovi: well...today i improved from gold to top20
MSmits: gj
jacek: oh my
kovi: yeah i think top20-40 is the proper range
MSmits: if you test vs my bot you might get the occasional win, but try vs karli so and re curse, they're almost unbeatable as p1
kovi: draw is ok
MSmits: you'll lose most as p2 as well
kovi: true
MSmits: the game is lopsided enough that you'll win some when you're p1
MSmits: even with a weaker bot
kovi: i think that is th reason im so high :)
MSmits: hard to say really. Best way to test is to just place 10 opponents spread out over the top 30 of the leaderboard. Then do 1000 CG bench games
eulerscheZahl: struct i still get the missing surfaces when I move invisible blocks out of range
dbf: eulerscheZahl, congratulations with approved game
eulerscheZahl: thanks :)
kovi: i need to look into mcts solver
MSmits: input is huge
Angecide: kovi u got 23th with vanilla mcts?
MSmits: kovi, small winrate bonus, but ++ coolness factor when you output solved games 15 plies before
Angecide: ah I guess u mean u don't do anything special with terminal nodes
kovi: i failed legend with vanilla. added heuristics
kovi: ok, some perf improvements also came late today
kovi: yes terminals
MSmits: so much input eulerscheZahl, or maybe it's because i switch to C# and it's so verbose
kovi: my code is still messy and im sure those can be backpropagated better
MSmits: ye i am used to seeing that cin << << << << crap
eulerscheZahl: you mean for Tryangle catch?
MSmits: yes
Angecide: my code is only mcts solver, whenever I add heuristic, somehow it just makes my bot worse
Angecide: I need to learn the proper way of involving heuristics in my bot
eulerscheZahl: you can ignore parts of it
MSmits: i would not go C++ with this game
MSmits: so I have to build a graph right
MSmits: been a while
MSmits: well unless you count mcts
dbf: Angecide what language do you use for uttt?
kovi: afk a bit
struct: euler, what do you mean missing surfaces?
eulerscheZahl: the sides of the blocks
eulerscheZahl: you can just see through
eulerscheZahl: i already closed it again, going to bed now
struct: ok, gn
MSmits: gn euler
jacek: mcts solver gave me like 55-60% winrate in uttt
struct: lose rate %?
jacek: hm?
MSmits: you mean compared to a bot without it
struct: loserate as p1
MSmits: i am sure he did a p1/p2 alternated test
MSmits: vs his own bot
jacek: eeyup
MSmits: without mcts solver
jacek: locally with thousands of games
jacek: it was long before i put many heuristics and improvements i have now
Angecide: ah, I just saw it on cgstats, it says 56% win, which seems to match ur number as well with mcts solver
MSmits: not sure how well it generalizes to other bots with other circumstances, but 100% sure it helps
jacek: from my experience it never hurts
MSmits: i mean the solver only really starts to use resources when it solves
MSmits: and when it solves it helps because you lose those nodes to explore
jacek: in othello it may not help but doesnt hurt either, and during self-games tests its faster as 10 plies are solved so you can test more games
MSmits: in othello it helps a *ton*, my bot solves at ply 43 or so
jacek: your bot is fast, avx guy :c
MSmits: true
struct: o.o
struct: 43?
MSmits: I am happy it still did ok without book, was afraid it would drop below 10 like it did when i did my messed up yavalath test
MSmits: still not sure what went wrong there, i interleaved the book into the search too much
MSmits: jacek when you use a book, do you only use it at the top of the tree and just forego search or do you use i on expansion, as part of the search?
MSmits: i do that last one in yavalath and its very messy. Not in other games though
struct: We need more board games
MSmits: lol not really
struct: From all I ported I only like Y and Amazons
MSmits: I mean i love them, but
MSmits: there's a lot now :)
MSmits: hmm
struct: I will only stop when there are more multies than clashes
MSmits: lol
jacek: MSmits i only use book in Y and just directly the move
jacek: not for search
MSmits: ah ok
struct: We need knightthrough
MSmits: dont know it
struct: like breakthrough
struct: but with knights
MSmits: did you just make that up?
struct: no
struct: its real
MSmits: mmh I think you made it up
jacek: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316147806_Generalized_Rapid_Action_Value_Estimation
MSmits: ow
MSmits: he didnt make it up
MSmits: I could solve Rookthrough
struct: is that one real?
MSmits: No I made it up
MSmits: you see how that works?
MSmits: :P
MSmits: rookthrough would be so boring, you start and poof you're on the other side
Astrobytes: Aren't there variations of amazons using knights and other pieces?
Astrobytes: Sure I saw that somewhere
struct: no idea
jacek: crazyhouse breakthrough!
Astrobytes: breakthrough960... :P
MSmits: yeah!
MSmits: 960
MSmits: make a new contrib for this struct
struct: Ill just replace Yinsh with it
struct: So I dont have to go through approval
jacek: not much love for yinsh eh
Astrobytes: Yet.
kovi: how can you shuffle bt?
MSmits: Keep yinsh, its a fine game like paper soccer and twixt, it just didnt get popular
Astrobytes: kovi: that's the joke ;)
struct: astro I added random positions, pieces can only be next to each other if they are in a different 4x4 square
struct: otherwise not
Astrobytes: Oh that sounds good
MSmits: ah
MSmits: so 1 piece of both sides in each 4x4?
struct: yes
Astrobytes: Yep
MSmits: not bad, needs some playtesting though
MSmits: but tric trac is good for that
MSmits: he fixed onitama too
Astrobytes: It might just create chamber mayhem very quickly and be uninteresting or it might be interesting
struct: yeah, Its all up for testing
trictrac: struct tomorrow I will make a bot for amazons
kovi: gotta go now
struct: thanks I should also do the fireworks one tomorrow
Astrobytes: And hopefully I will finish my fireworks bot trictrac
struct: This weekend I will have it ready
kovi: try angle has 4 leagues and only 5 players
struct: :(
Astrobytes: So many games
MSmits: ye
trictrac: thanks and perhaps you can approve :slight_smile:
struct: othello got 78 players since puzzle of the week
jacek: and how many in wood1
struct: 0
Astrobytes: lol
jacek: buy buy quest map
jacek: meh
struct: its free points
struct: 78 players = 780 points for rnak 1
JohnnyLuke: made a clash about cheating on an exam, and accidentally show that you can get a better score than the person you cheat off of .....
JohnnyLuke: :grimacing:
MSmits: yeah, only cheat on the questions you dont know the answers to
Wontonimo: that is the principle behind "boosting"
Wontonimo: several weak classifiers can make a strong classifier
dbf: nice title of the preview page for a game: https://clip2net.com/clip/m572140/e1c5a-clip-50kb.jpg?nocache=1
MSmits: just a fyi for any of my students reading this chatlog after the fact. I was speaking hypothetically :P
JohnnyLuke: lol
struct: lol dbf
MSmits: lol practice disappointment
Astrobytes: Hahaha dbf and MSmits
MSmits: i bet he did not realize this when he added the tags :P
dbf: Can I be 2% if I practice 5%? :thinking:
1400179: lmao
Astrobytes: I think he did MSmits in all honesty
MSmits: maybe
MSmits: funnier if he didnt
1400179: Where is that preview from anyway
Astrobytes: He will be happy tomorrow when he sees it I'm sure.
struct: email?
struct: Im not sure
dbf: reCurse it is a link preview in telegram messenger
struct: ah
Astrobytes: Hahaha excellent
MSmits: telegram? Isnt that where all the rightwing extremists went when they were kicked off twitter?
1400179: No
Astrobytes: huh?
MSmits: mmh must be confused with something else
MSmits: they went from parler to something else
dbf: MSmits, yes extremists and some CG players
Astrobytes: Telegram is just a messaging platform, Russian-based, fairly secure (or was)
1400179: TTT still too low to my liking :/
struct: ttt?
1400179: Time to Trump
1400179: Uh? Must have missed that development.
1400179: Then again I'm trying to detox now
MSmits: it was one of the last things i saw before i completely ghosted the US
Astrobytes: Yeah I didn't see that
MSmits: havent watched the US news for a few days now
MSmits: feels great
Astrobytes: lol, we're all detoxing now eh
zhoubou: What is this news you talk about?
Astrobytes: It's almost a relief, yet also worrying
MSmits: better you dont know
JohnnyLuke: i wish i could not watch US news, unfortunately stuck here
JohnnyLuke: Y'all lucky
MSmits: i'm sure lots of crap is still happening Astrobytes, but it's at a different level for at least a while I think
Astrobytes: You are not your government JohnnyLuke
Astrobytes: MSmits: yeah I'm not gonna talk about it anyway, peace and quiet for now :)
MSmits: JohnnyLuke, you actually only have to watch enough to know whats happening and make informed decisions. You don't have to follow it 24/7
MSmits: i was watching way too much of it
MSmits: Astrobytes agreed :)
zhoubou: I wouldn't have a clue if a war broke out in my neighborhood
zhoubou: That's how much I read
MSmits: you'd think it was fireworks?
Astrobytes: Another quake!
MSmits: not unreasonable btw, in my country
zhoubou: I don't care if there were 27k quakes below 2.0 or something
MSmits: are you old enough to actually have been in a war zhoubou?
MSmits: I mean it's not that long ago is it?
MSmits: good i suppose
Astrobytes: That was a horrible time.
MSmits: definitely, some scars in my country from that war
MSmits: even
MSmits: some of our military had to stand by while genocide happend =/
Astrobytes: I won't talk about it. Too much for CG chat in all honesty.
MSmits: ye
MSmits: sorry
Astrobytes: No, no worries.
Astrobytes: Anyway, zhoubou, what you working on now?
MSmits: trying to get a tryangle catch bot going
MSmits: ye zhoubou, sup?
Astrobytes: Too many inputs to do quickly no?
zhoubou: Astrobytes MSmits Well, studying mostly
struct: just use the starter kits provided by cg
struct: :zipper_mouth:
Astrobytes: Aha, almost forgot about the studying there. When's the exam again?
zhoubou: Other than that, going through CS career path on Codecademy, and helping someone out on puzzles
MSmits: ohh
MSmits: you have a pro account?
Astrobytes: ah yeah
MSmits: for codecademt?
MSmits: cool
Astrobytes: struct: lol, not my style
zhoubou: I could spare some money
MSmits: I have 2 students doing their html stuff for free
zhoubou: It's not worth it if you're not me imo :P
TheFlashSaxophone_e85b: are you guys bots?
zhoubou: But it's worth it for me
Astrobytes: Yes.
MSmits: just me TheFlashSaxophone_e85b
MSmits: i wouldnt call Astrobytes a bot, he's just a handful of heuristics
zhoubou: TheFlashSaxophone_e85b Of course not. Beep boop.
struct: 2210437 users
Astrobytes: True AI MSmits
MSmits: lol
trictrac: kovi : almost 0 win against your bot !!
zhoubou: AI is always just a bunch of if statements, amirite?
VladimirAngelov: no
Astrobytes: The One True AI is yes
Astrobytes: (it's a fairly old CG meme)
MSmits: from some guy whining about people using a search right?
MSmits: on the forum
MSmits: instead of just doing if statements
Astrobytes: Yeah, can't remember the contest.
Astrobytes: Also you can't mention True AI without Prune Arrays and cegimax
MSmits: of course
MSmits: it's very relaxing to work on a bot in C#
MSmits: no worries about catastrophic bugs
Astrobytes: ...
MSmits: or performance
MSmits: I was think maybe getting a bit creative with Linq and stuff
MSmits: because i have the functional programming class soon
Astrobytes: Yeah, the linq stuff is handy, very handy
MSmits: i need to get better with it
dbf: MSmits do you teach FP?
MSmits: no i am both student and teacher
MSmits: for this i am student
MSmits: hopefully done by summer
MSmits: then i will be qualified as high school CS teacher
Astrobytes: 'done' you say... :)
MSmits: finished i mean :P
zhoubou: Does CG have self-assesment?
MSmits: mmh depends on your definition
zhoubou: Like if I want to check my knowledge.
MSmits: not like on codecademy
Astrobytes: Not by any really measurable metric no
MSmits: but puzzles have tags
MSmits: so you can practice in a more focused way
Astrobytes: unless you keep track of what you're learning on the way - even then, hmm
zhoubou: Oh I meant the jobs part of CG
Astrobytes: No I don't think it does
MSmits: oh yeah companies can arrange assessments here
zhoubou: But I can't arrange one for myself?
MSmits: for job interviews
MSmits: hmm dont think so
Astrobytes: Yeah, interview assessments but not personal
MSmits: want us to assess you?
Astrobytes: Not that I'm aware of but perhaps message Thibaud
zhoubou: MSmits I would fail currentl :D
MSmits: maybe
Astrobytes: Failing is a large part of succeeding.
zhoubou: How would you assess me anyways?
MSmits: tbh, that sounds like a garbled yoda quote :P
MSmits: doesnt make it any less true though
Astrobytes: lol
zhoubou: A large part of succeeding, failing is.
MSmits: no idea zhoubou
zhoubou: There, fixed it for yah
Astrobytes: :)
Astrobytes: brb
MSmits: well there you go, you pass
MSmits: Yoda certificate of excellence
zhoubou: Can you provide a pdf?
MSmits: sec
MSmits: even better
MSmits: https://imgflip.com/i/4vw654
zhoubou: I'll print it and put it on my wall. Thanks!
MSmits: np :)
TBali: cool :-)
AntiSquid: https://imgflip.com/i/4vwbks
TBali: so all my bots are a big success after all?
MSmits: yoda is always right
TBali: "A succeeding failing is large"
MSmits: "failing large, is succeeding"
MSmits: thats the one you need
TBali: So Coelho is a 900y old yedi master
zhoubou: Large is succeeding, failing
Astrobytes: Succeeding, a large failing is
TBali: permutate()
Astrobytes: Failed
MSmits: input is now read Astrobytes
MSmits: finally finished debugging the input
Astrobytes: lol
MSmits: i forgot that C# doesnt actually stopping you from making the mistakes, it just tells you so you can fix it right away
MSmits: lots and lots of fixing
TBali: next multi - yoda contest - the worse your bot is, the higher you are on the leaderboard
TBali: but crashing or timeout does not count
Astrobytes: I think it's kinda language independent MSmits
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: maybe :)
MSmits: so next up, roaming around the map randomly
TBali: no, php does not tell you
Astrobytes: That's what I mean TBali, the errors are yours to make, and yours alone.
TBali: it is like corporate bullshit - outside everything is shiny, internaly it rots
MSmits: php rots?
TBali: MSmits, I see you are physics teacher. What age group do you teach?
MSmits: it was in my IDE when i opened it either
MSmits: earlier
MSmits: TBali 16-18
MSmits: I also teach a bit of computer science, same ages
TBali: My son is 17.5, wants to be physics researcher
MSmits: a few hrs a week only
Astrobytes: "rots" - reminded me of my favourite Swedish phrase: min pumpa ruttnar
MSmits: thats cool TBali
TBali: focuses on it quite a lot, now
TBali: had his first paper accepted
MSmits: either that is your only Swedish phrase Astrobytes, or i just discovered a new side of you
zhoubou: Astrobytes I love Swedish. I'm actually slowly learning it through Duolingo
MSmits: TBali wait what?
Astrobytes: How did it go TBali? I remember you were looking for lightweight GUI ideas for him
MSmits: a paper at that age?
MSmits: I only ever wrote 1 paper
Astrobytes: MSmits: I have a good friend in Sweden :)
MSmits: ah I see
TBali: yes, quite proud now
MSmits: i can see that
Astrobytes: But I learned that in a restaurant from a waitress.
TBali: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/abd989/meta
Astrobytes: zhoubou: Nice! It's an odd but beautiful language, I should put time in to learning it properly some day
MSmits: ah TBali, so it's an extension of his childhood basically. First you bounce balls, then you write papers about bouncing balls :)
AntiSquid: initial public offering science ?
TBali: :)
Astrobytes: eh? IOP, institute of physics
TBali: One of the peer reviewer commented: nice, but it requires only high scool physics
AntiSquid: ya i can't read properly anymore
TBali: Well he is high school. But actualy there was more than high school maths in it
AntiSquid: i actually thought i see IPO
Astrobytes: Screen break for squid
MSmits: TBali if they say "it only requires high school physics" then thats poor criticism. If you can solve a problem noone else has, with simpler tools, so much the better
Astrobytes: Agreed. It's not exactly a trivial problem.
TBali: he studies in a spec math class , best in country so could use some analysis
MSmits: I used high school physics to prove there's a black hole in the center of our galaxy, with my students
Astrobytes: "chaoticity" though - that a real word?
TBali: now it is accepted, after some changes needed to submitted
MSmits: i mean it wasnt original but we used the original data
Astrobytes: Nicely done MSmits!
MSmits: funny thing is, 1 week after they handed in the project, the scientists that used the data got the nobel prize
MSmits: complete coincidence
Astrobytes: Nice coincidence though eh
TBali: Astrobytes, yes this was the same paper the simulation in Java/processing was needed
MSmits: ye
MSmits: so... my point is, nothing wrong with high school physics :)
Astrobytes: Thought so TBali, well done to him (and you for helping him out where needed)
Astrobytes: MSmits: it's the foundation
MSmits: exc
MSmits: exactly
Astrobytes: Doing biology, chem and physics at the same time for me in highschool was confusing but rewarding when they converged at points
MSmits: I just received an e-mail from a student just like your son TBali. He was the 11th best student in my country last year, to take the exams
AntiSquid: is that not normal Astrobytes ?
MSmits: did similar stuff
Astrobytes: That's awesome.
AntiSquid: like 2 hours or so of each of those ?
Astrobytes: No I took them as main subjects
AntiSquid: you had choice eh
Astrobytes: Not much. Had to fight for it, because I wanted to take art and music too
Astrobytes: Was talking about that yesterday
MSmits: oh it's normal here, to do all those together
AntiSquid: our entire classes we arguing with the school director about having spanish instead of french and the guy shut us down saying no ...
AntiSquid: class *
AntiSquid: were *
AntiSquid: sleepy T_T
MSmits: sometimes it's either/or with bio and phys, but many do both. Chem is mandatory for them
Astrobytes: Yes for the first 2 years of highschool you do everything, next two you choose, then you choose again for the next two
MSmits: here its choose after 3, so first 3 no choice
MSmits: that is, at the highest level
AntiSquid: smits do you have Bacalaureat like in france in your country? there's no such thing in UK afaik
MSmits: otherwise it's after 2
Astrobytes: Most of the time teachers advise students pretty well
MSmits: whats bacalaureat
AntiSquid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at
Astrobytes: The baccalaureate is only French (or maybe Canada? And maybe another few euro countries?)
AntiSquid: post-highschool exam
TBali: Abitur
TBali: in Germany
AntiSquid: bunch of EU countries have it
TBali: we have the same concept
jacek: matura?
MSmits: do you mean a full exam at the end of high school? or after?
Astrobytes: We had (in Scotland) 6th year studies, which was like university foundation level
Astrobytes: but that was a while ago
TBali: Now in Hungary it also acts as the Uni entry exam for state unis
MSmits: we do have a full exam at the end AntiSquid, that encompasses about 70% of the entire curriculum. Is that what you mean?
MSmits: not all subjects have this. Computer science doesnt
MSmits: physics does
AntiSquid: "now" TBali ? wasn't it always like that ?
MSmits: physics exam takes 3 hours
MSmits: it's pretty nerve wracking for some students
TBali: there is even an international version https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Baccalaureate
MSmits: the grade is 50% of the total grade on your diploma
MSmits: the other 50% is all the stuff you did before the exam
TBali: AnitSquid - no, in my time I had separate Baccalaurate exam, and Uni entry exam 3 weeks later
MSmits: it's important to have such a national exam, to prevent schools from messing with the bar students have to pass. they can make it too easy otherwise
AntiSquid: cool, maybe i can go to Uni and do gender studies now TBali
TBali: My son did the USA Sat Physics Subject test just to see how it goes, but in the end he did not apply for USA univ
TBali: https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/sat-subject-tests/subjects/science/physics
MSmits: i dont understand why gender studies is a thing. What do you learn there?
MSmits: dont know if they have that here
AntiSquid: clearly you're intolerant?
MSmits: lol
MSmits: please enlighten me :)
TBali: I think it is overblown by politics, both sides
MSmits: i dont even know what it teaches
Astrobytes: As usual, real issues become polarising and divisive because of hype.
MSmits: hm ok, but what is the actual issue?
AntiSquid: gender studies battle inequality !
MSmits: != ?
AntiSquid: generate new genders, release genders on the gender stock market and pump up their values
MSmits: mmh i doubt thats what i tis
MSmits: that sounds more like genetic experimentation
MSmits: so is this part of a politics curriculum then?
AntiSquid: geez there are scholarly articles now trying to promote it lol sorry my sarcasm can't beat that
MSmits: i gave up and googled it
Astrobytes: There is real inequality, real hatred, real issues
AntiSquid: you probably learn how to be a smooth political talker with that degree, it develops proper bullshiting skills
Astrobytes: Squid subscribes to the media-led description of it
MSmits: there always is
MSmits: AntiSquid that's a common critisicm of social sciences in general. I don't think it should be limited to gender studies.. speaking as someone who just read about it on wiki for the first time
MSmits: dont have a very high opinion of social sciences myself, as a physicist
MSmits: sure it has value, but it also seems to be messy and often wrong
AntiSquid: social sciences is a great ideal
AntiSquid: but that's not what they're pushing
Astrobytes: Nor I as a biologist, but they exist and they exist to question
MSmits: who is they
AntiSquid: the ones teaching the curriculum for the gender studies degree i mean
Astrobytes: What about the gender studies degree do you disagree with?
MSmits: from what i read on the wiki, which again, is all i know about gender studies atm, it seems to use a lot of vaguely defined words
MSmits: that alone is problematic
PatrickMcGinnisII: I can't get an additional degree because i initially took physics w/ calculus and the new degree requires physics for engineers ... wtf is the difference?
MSmits: no idea
MSmits: but physics is a large field
Astrobytes: Society in general is problematic, why wouldn't studying it be problematic?
MSmits: for example, when people talk about "feminism" they have wildly different ideas about what it even means
AntiSquid: there being 50 genders or more part and many other mostly theatrical studies about social aspects of our world Astrobytes, that's what i disagree with
Astrobytes: Antisquid: that's not gender studies
MSmits: AntiSquid gender is a word that has apparently evolved to have a different meaning to some people. Noone would deny humans have 2 genders biologically
MSmits: the problem is that the definitions seem unregulated. That's probably what you have a problem with also
Astrobytes: It's more about the relation of genders to each other and the reasons for inequality: very broad subject. Same as studying race relations
MSmits: inequality of opportunity or inequality of outcome ?
MSmits: it's a hugely different issue
MSmits: people just call it inequality, but thats bad
Scarfield: FemstroBytes
Astrobytes: The 50 gender thing: yes there are a lot of (imo) total idiots around touting ridiculous stuff but that's the only part picked up by the media.
AntiSquid: i made a joke about the woke aspect of it, which is very real, didn't meant to go with chat completely offtopic to discuss it
Astrobytes: Both MSmits. It's a subject worthy of study is all I'm saying.
MSmits: woke is another term that is too vaguely defined and is mostly used to trigger/shame/punish/encourage people without being too specific about what you're saying
AntiSquid: even if you take just the male vs female part of gender studies you'll see it's partly pure rubbish
AntiSquid: or maybe mostly
Astrobytes: AntiSquid you read way too much alt media :D
MSmits: Astrobytes i agree it is
AntiSquid: that's an assumption
Astrobytes: Scarfield: LOL where have you been
MSmits: words matter though, they leak into society and take on a life of their own, that's the problem
MSmits: like the gender thing
AntiSquid: judgement is based on what i heard directly from the horses mouth
Astrobytes: The whole identify as a stonekin, 350 gender thing is just a meme
Astrobytes: now
Scarfield: just didnt feel like coding lately, but not the first break i have had :)
Astrobytes: That doesn't mean there aren't people out there pushing that though
MSmits: AntiSquid you do have to be careful about rightwing media. They sometimes have a point, but more often than not they will make false connections
Astrobytes: But it's not in mainstream gender studies that is for sure.
AntiSquid: the memes are there to point out the flaws, but discussing toilet signs is part of gender studies
MSmits: like when it's about gay rights, they start comparing to bestiality or pedophilia and such
AntiSquid: for example
Astrobytes: Scarfield: all good man, I know how it goes
Astrobytes: And: BREAKFIELD
TBali: Astrobytes, yo you are a biologist?
Scarfield: I honestly dont understand why its even being argued to be "genders"
Astrobytes: Yes TBali, well, by qualification at least.
Scarfield: yay, pun name, i have missed that xD
AntiSquid: MSmits you're also making assumptions
TBali: What area are you working in?
MSmits: rightwing media is obsessed with who should go to which toilet :P
Astrobytes: Pharma regulatory TBali
MSmits: arent we all AntiSquid
struct: Current media is trash
Astrobytes: MSmits: that's a real issue, for all parties concerned
struct: I cant even watch the news on tv anymore
TBali: Coding for work, or just for fun?
struct: its unbereable
Scarfield: i will make up a new gender, that by definition can only belong to one person, so private toilet
MSmits: it's an issue because rightwingers make it one is what i meant
MSmits: it shouldnt be
MSmits: who cares about that, just let people go where they want
MSmits: nothing ever happens
Astrobytes: TBali: I do a little for work (scripts to help me out etc) but the rest for fun yes. I did have 1 dev job back in 2000-2002;
AntiSquid: no MSmits, was specifically talking about shit you hear from gender studies crowd directly
MSmits: ah ok, i dont listen to the gender studies crowd, so i dunno. Maybe i twould be interesting
TBali: I am wondering, how much % of CG community is pr developer?
Astrobytes: MSmits: Sure, I mean that in some places people get a bit off with the wrong genders being in their toilets - potential for abuse.
MSmits: yes, they seem to think there is so much potential, yet you almost never hear about someone who pretended to be a different gender to spy on the toilets... that just doenst happen
Astrobytes: In Sweden, the toilets are mixed.
MSmits: its a right win fantasy
MSmits: +g
AntiSquid: you might have seen it in your work place but didn't pay attention to it or didn't realize the flaws
Scarfield: but sweden also doesnt use words for him/her anymore
Astrobytes: No, there are cases of abuse. But they are a lot rarer than those news outlets would have you believe.
MSmits: and those rare cases. Do you think a law would have stopped them
Astrobytes: Sweden's been cool about the gender thing for ... as long as I've ever visited there at least :D
TBali: him/her word I don't even know how am I suppose to use it 'properly' in English. 'They'. and then isse the verb in singular 3rd?
Astrobytes: Hell no MSmits. But it's about the illusion of safety.
AntiSquid: there's a push of 50% stats instead of skill for example
AntiSquid: that's not wrong?
Scarfield: they have gone a bot overboard imo, there is a difference between the genders. Trying to push that there isnt as some politically correct agenda just seems weird. But they arent hurting anyone, but us danes can joke about these weird swedes :p
Astrobytes: Scarfield: perhaps officially? But they most certainly do personally!
AntiSquid: also all the BAME politics is also part of it
AntiSquid: you heard about BAME in your work place right ?
TBali: Scarfield, you weork at Evil Corp, so that does not count :-)
TBali: Mr. Robot - what a great show, really liked it
Astrobytes: Yeah, but the fact it's official Scarfield, it makes a lot of people feel really comfortable. In everyday life/speech they use whatever but they are respectful
Scarfield: wait, they only added a gender less word.. lol i thought they "banned" the gendered words xD
MSmits: I dislike policing speech
Astrobytes: Scarfield: They also hide from their neighbours if they are about to both leave their apartments at the same time :D
zhoubou: Hmm I might like this Sweden :thinking:
Astrobytes: MSmits: they don't police the speech
MSmits: then it's fine
MSmits: there was a big problem in canada when they policed speech about gender
AntiSquid: who doesn't police speech?
Astrobytes: Sweden is geek heaven btw
Scarfield: yea, i actually thought that was what they did, at least i looked it up
AntiSquid: you have to be very careful what you say these days :/
Astrobytes: Context squid, context. I was referring to the Swedish.
MSmits: AntiSquid depends on what you do mostly
MSmits: if you could get fired for what you say
Scarfield: also i think i saw some statistic that the swedish had the highest percentage of beautiful people to population
MSmits: sometimes it's good to punish people for what they say though... it depends. Cancel culture is real though
AntiSquid: diversity, inclusion ... doublespeak is all over sweden Astrobytes
struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Astrobytes: Now I KNOW you're reading those particular news outlets
Anonymous12321: learning python
AntiSquid: ya sorry struct, was just intending to do a quick joke, not start a debate
Anonymous12321: is class of code for adults?
MSmits: what's wrong with diversity and inclusion?
struct: Wasnt related to discussion astro
struct: anti*
AntiSquid: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10439463.2019.1611818 Astrobytes
AntiSquid: look at the god damn vocabulary
AntiSquid: you know what, i actually done a gender studies course
struct: That is longer than the mcts paper
Astrobytes: What about the vocabulary?
Scarfield: and doesnt teach MCTS,, pff
Astrobytes: *SWEMCTS
Scarfield: xD
Astrobytes: Ah welcome back EcksDeeField
Scarfield: :innocent:
Astrobytes: What's your next multi then Scarfield-a-tron
TBali: Hmm, I see TryAngle Catch is accepted
Astrobytes: Yes it certainly is.
TBali: could have been a great community contest
Scarfield: hmm not sure, failed hard at the last contest. Maybe ill finish that, but will probably look at something else first
AntiSquid: listed 2 words frequently used in their papers / studies / showcases you say i took it from right wing media ... Astrobytes
Astrobytes: You may now practice AI, Disappointment and 5% TBali!
TBali: might need to try this. But I have 24 untouched community multis on todo list
TBali: It is hard to motivate for community multis - only the best are there, so leaderboard is filled with good bots only
Anonymous12321: how find prime
Astrobytes: AntiSquid: didn't say right wing
struct: :tada:
struct: one person completed potw
Astrobytes: Oh nice
AntiSquid: do i need to quote chat history now :/
TBali: what is potw
struct: puzzle of the week: othello
TBali: I mean which is it now
Scarfield: prisoner of the wild
TBali: I still have my golfed submission there :-)
TBali: 86/156
Scarfield: xD
AntiSquid: you know what i am referring to and i am sure you are capable to see the issues yourself, but like to either play devils advocate or w/e
TBali: not bad from 126 bytes
Scarfield: "leaderboard would be modified to TrueSkill point PER source code chars."
Scarfield: sad that this hasnt been changed yet :p
TBali: C++ bots would fail miserably
TBali: Ruby would rule the world
Scarfield: hmm Pengwins or pokerchip race will probably be my next multi btw furryBytes
TBali: actually I am planning to try out MCTS is a fast language. (I coded mcts only once, for uttt and in php). Shall I try C++ or Rust? which might pose less difficulties for a beginner?
duckymirror: I didn't manage to get a Rust version working without unsafe code...
TBali: I struggled with Rust vene for short solo puzzles
duckymirror: Or rather, without unsafe code and little overhead
struct: Might be easier to find stuff on c++ than on rust, but dont quote me on that
TBali: I am a bit afraid of C++ memory management
AntiSquid: in what sense
struct: on cg just allocate and dont touch it
TBali: Making coder mistake, hard to debug?
TBali: Being inexpereinced with pointers
Scarfield: pre allocate a nodepool, assign nodes as the algo goes on
AntiSquid: pointer headaches are fun once you get used to it
TBali: Okay, but if my code is too fast than I get out of memory
TBali: so need to reuse
AntiSquid: then ascend to pointers referencing pointers of pointers for more fun
duckymirror: My Rust MCTS doesn't run out of memory
struct: You either have a bug or dont use all the memory
Scarfield: you dont have to use pointers, have an int index for the firstChildNode and an int for the number of children for example
TBali: And you keep all created nodes intact?
struct: yes
AntiSquid: i love pointers, i am holding onto them ... i let go of recursion, that's already a big emotional loss
TBali: In php I usually turn off garbage collector. When I run 2048 and Samegame offline (for more time) I had out of memory...
AntiSquid: besides a friend of mine with 20+ years of C++ experience convinced me to use pointers
THEASIAN: hello
Scarfield: ooh, forgot about the 2048 multi.. i should make my own to do list
TBali: optim it is
Scarfield: yea
TBali: but offline result is so long that cannot fit in the source 100k hardcoded :-)
TBali: But with some encoding it still boosted my points
TBali: 2 bits per move, than base64
Scarfield: that is still something i havent touched yet, local search -> encoding, could be fun to do
TBali: (zlib is left out from CG's php...)
TBali: I played it jhust when php v8 with the new JIT apeeared - used for some benchmarking
TBali: And actually JIT makes a difference for CG-like workloads (not for web apps)
TBali: 2-3x speedup
TBali: but still slow
TBali: too bad CG is using 2 major release older version...
struct: how much code would break if they updated version?
TBali: not much imho
TBali: unless you use really not according to best practice
TBali: the type system became stronger but it is fully opt-on
TBali: opt-in
Scarfield: optim, heh heh ugh
TBali: not sure about C++ It is much better established, yet Rust seems shiny with the promise of memory safety
TBali: If I learn how not to fight borrow checker
JBM: high-level C++ is memory-safe enough
duckymirror: You get used to the borrow checker.
TBali: Funny thing . just made a C++ skill assessment on Pluralsight - it is completely flawed. It says "Expert". Flattering but far from truth
TBali: "Great start! You did better than 87% of your peers." Maybe lot of people do this as beginner. But that does not make me an expert
struct: expert = ready for easy puzzles on cg
TBali: Yeah I am for that. I know for, if, ...:-)
AntiSquid: are there other online assessments like that?
TBali: don't know. Pluralsight is subscription based
TBali: It was 20-30 quiz questions
TBali: Maybe I was lucky, with some educated guesses
TBali: lots of lambdas, objects, pointers
AntiSquid: does the assessment help ?
Scarfield: Which is the correct term: 1. If loop 2. For loop
TBali: But did it immediately after watching 5h of C++ tutorial
TBali: that helped
Scarfield: xD
TBali: loophole
Astrobytes: gn all!
AntiSquid: bye bye
Scarfield: :wave"
Scarfield: lol
struct: gn
Scarfield: gn
TBali: :wave:
AntiSquid: is there a quick contribution tutorial for lazy folks btw?
JBM: contributions aren't for the lazy
TBali: or the faint hearted
TBali: :)
AntiSquid: i will keep it under WIP lol
struct: just the sdk tech io thing I guess
struct: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/408/tech-io-documentation/create-a-playground
AntiSquid: promise it will be less sloppy than your TVC
JBM: it's got regression tests
Scarfield: less sloppy..? how could it be anything but less sloppy, TcV is perfection
JBM: a proper MVC separation of concerns
TBali: is it approved now?
Scarfield: god i cant type today
AntiSquid: i can throw something like that together, but no worries, want to do somewhat decent animations, got some funny idea
TBali: I cannot solve it. I am rooting for the troll. My soulmate. Cannot think of beating him
JBM: per-league upgrades and oodies
AntiSquid: learning curve? let me check me rank there again
AntiSquid: is it down ?
selmaDa: can i ask for something ?
JBM: i re-submitted it a few days ago
struct: ask selmaDa
selmaDa: can we make money from codinGame?
AntiSquid: oh i dropped a bit
AntiSquid: maybe the the learning curve theory is real for tvc
JBM: what's your ranking AntiSquid?
AntiSquid: 43, was 11 without trying hard
struct: Go back to 2016 win the accountant contest
struct: profit
TBali: solved on D... lol
Scarfield: :you_paper:
struct: Only way to make money here is to win a contest I guess
struct: and even then the prizes might not be money
JBM: i've seen people ready ot pay forsolutions in a specific language here already
JBM: wouldn't match my rate, though
TBali: really? omg
AntiSquid: D next contest, no matter what, call me out if i dodge again, was lazy last time worried i need to google too much
TBali: And how you rate D?
TBali: 1 to 10?
selmaDa: if is not money ? what's the prizes
AntiSquid: idk, didn't try using pointers yet TBali
AntiSquid: it's alright i don't see why people hate it
AntiSquid: better than java for sure
Scarfield: Hoodies, posters, gift cards and such is what i remember
TBali: on a very novice level D is just C, no?
struct: https://www.codingame.com/contests/finished
struct: selmaDa check there
JBM: it used to be my "better C++" hope
JBM: but apparently now it's GC and all the shit
struct: Unleash the geek had 3k amazon gift card as first prize
JBM: a good thing for me rust came up
TBali: converted 30 puzzles, but did not hve too much impact on my
struct: But that was a sponsored contest
struct: Nowadays im not sure what the prizes are
AntiSquid: because it's not outlandish syntax-wise
struct: beside a tshirt for top 20
AntiSquid: canvas to 3 ?
Scarfield: you could sell the tshirt for profit
AntiSquid: and shirts top 20
selmaDa: does there are more in 2021?
TBali: everlasting glory for top10
Scarfield: when it eventually arrives
struct: "May 6" selmaDa
struct: But it may change
AntiSquid: ML contests give good prizes and some of them don't have strong competition
struct: I dont know
struct: Sometimes it gets delayed
selmaDa: What did you gain from your presence here?
struct: knowledge
Scarfield: enemies and bald spots
selmaDa: :thumbsup_tone2::joy:
TBali: fun, trolls
TBali: castels
AntiSquid: that's a controversial topic selmaDa
TBali: gender studies :-)
Scarfield: xD
AntiSquid: i have a certificate for it
TBali: That's a strange book: http://leanpub.com/thinking-functionally-in-php
Scarfield: but seriously learned a lot, and had fun doing so
TBali: Not in the spirit of "right tool for the rtight job", but still interesting
TBali: I bought it
AntiSquid: selmaDa what matters is what you want to gain, focus on that
JBM: so how's your train of thought now
TBali: read it 70% already
JBM: if you could think functionally in php, you wouldn't code in php to begin with
TBali: Well, it was interesting
TBali: My mindset is not functional.
selmaDa: i want to learn programming and earn money !
AntiSquid: he could have read a book about stock exchange in that time and now be coding a bot for trading, right JBM ?
TBali: I solved a few puzzles in Haskell, it was really nice
TBali: found quite hard to change mindset
TBali: and my codes are most likely ugly
PatrickMcGinnisII: besides the speed, what is wrong with php?
AntiSquid: $$$$
TBali: Read part if this, http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out
AntiSquid: we want bitcoin symbol
selmaDa: :person_frowning_tone2:
TBali: Even saw 4h of haskell tutorial on Pluralsight
TBali: But still hard to think of a problem in FP way
PatrickMcGinnisII: i make $ with php
selmaDa: @JBM are you freelancer
TBali: Okay, than I a worse - I do php as hobby...
AntiSquid: not sure anymore i finished the book learnyouahaskell, probably skimmed through last few chapters
JBM: selmaDa: what's your budget?
TBali: I did not finish
TBali: just the basic chapters
TBali: what is that in €?
AntiSquid: hired, what are your skills selmaDa ?
selmaDa: programming and desing
JBM: who doesn't like to dese in the weekends
AntiSquid: dresing ?
TBali: dressing? what skill is that?
JBM: something inaccessible to us programmers
AntiSquid: he's probably playing visual novels where he has to dress up the grill
AntiSquid: or she ?
TBali: they
TBali: :)
AntiSquid: ow
JBM: pump us the jam; dress up the grill
PatrickMcGinnisII: i use php to easily make custom PDFs on the fly from session & cookie data and email it. What would it take for me to do that easily in another lang?
**AntiSquid takes cover
PatrickMcGinnisII: sql as well
TBali: Sure, I do like PHP, while seeing its shortcomings
selmaDa: :repeat_one: can we build app for free
AntiSquid: really depends what you're used to imo PatrickMcGinnisII
selmaDa: but online for lasy :joy:
AntiSquid: you can do that in python @_@
TBali: Well it was not planned properly, but eveolved naturally..
TBali: But at least moving in the right direction in past 5 releases
PatrickMcGinnisII: well i don't use .asp ... i kinda hate .asp - everything i made with it ran slow too
PatrickMcGinnisII: the php is easier
selmaDa: good night :wave_tone1:
AntiSquid: tell us your gender first
PatrickMcGinnisII: i guess i should be an azure addict now?
TBali: In CG, there is no real difference to more "modern" langauges, except speed
AntiSquid: ok good night
TBali: all constructs there, almost
TBali: bye selmaDa
AntiSquid: get and avatar btw, don't be like that high level lurker
PatrickMcGinnisII: rofl, a girl shows up and yall lose your ... nevermind
therealbeef: allegedly
PatrickMcGinnisII: I just wrote 100 lines for euler's TAC game and it still won't do anything real
TBali: C++ seems to have more "quirks" now, than php
TBali: was it 100 loc docblock?
PatrickMcGinnisII: well, i have class now. :P
TBali: good start :-)
PatrickMcGinnisII: tbali , you try chess with php? i can't get a minimax to run past depth 2
TBali: In all the multis, I make nice classes, etc. Very readable. Than I realize the sim speed will suck
PatrickMcGinnisII: i dunno if using alpha beta is even worth it
AntiSquid: feel free to identify as a girl to fill up the void or if you think it gets you more attention lol
PatrickMcGinnisII: there r some real cool women on here, they just don't show up much
TBali: did not try chess yet
AntiSquid: doubt CG has "girl" roleplayers, there are no ingame items to trade
TBali: and after I realize speed sucks, I go for heuristics -
TBali: Don't know female % of CG community. my prejudice is it is fairly low
PatrickMcGinnisII: i think turning off the gc asnd even error reporting help alot
PatrickMcGinnisII: i started dropping data into static classes and it does run a little faster, dunno why
TBali: gc - I do that. Error_reporting? Ebven if there are no errors?
TBali: some checking gets turned off by that?
PatrickMcGinnisII: i think there is some try {} catch that gets bypassed
TBali: I like to use type hinting - even if it actually slows down beacuse of extra runtime checks
TBali: OK, I will try out that one next time.
PatrickMcGinnisII: oh i use it for validating code... but turn off for submit
TBali: I also usually use declare(strict_types=1); which might have perf penalty
TBali: but we do not do this for speed, don't we :-)
TBali: how can you turn of type hinting ?
TBali: you either declare it or not, no?
TBali: (I mean function arguments, return types)
TBali: from 7.4 class methods could have been also type hinted
TBali: I mean properties
PatrickMcGinnisII: chess can be done without classes, but i did it with classes
TBali: I muss struct
TBali: miss
PatrickMcGinnisII: the board can be modified with a history stack, which i do...but the tree is too big at depth 3
TBali: classes help so much to organize code, & data. But really slows down things
PatrickMcGinnisII: struct, lol still used in C
PatrickMcGinnisII: well using intval() versus using (int) , i dunno if there is a speed thing to it
TBali: do you use bitboards for chess?
PatrickMcGinnisII: no i didn't, just a linear array of 64 values
TBali: I found replacing bitwise operators with arithmetihic usually helped
TBali: In UTTT
TBali: I mean vice versa
TBali: it is too late...
TBali: actually a simple vector type would help for php speed. Array is jjust too verstaile
PatrickMcGinnisII: thing is with these games you have 3 states for each square or cell...enemy piece, no piece or your piece ... So there's so many compares (ifs) that anything in a loop gets slowed way down
TBali: using sinternally a sorted hashmap with zvals as keys and as values is just so overkill if I need just a fixed list of int
PatrickMcGinnisII: I try to use bitboards with xor operations, but its like re-inventing the wheel
TBali: Might be, chess is complex.
TBali: For Tic Tac Toe, I found good bitboard ideas on the net
PatrickMcGinnisII: I want to use splfixedarrays, but the functions are limited
TBali: implemented it
TBali: And I read that splfixedarray is actually not that great in speed
TBali: (too old)
PatrickMcGinnisII: priority queues are impossible speedwise on CG
TBali: I used for some puzzles.
TBali: A* requires it
PatrickMcGinnisII: well u figure out any more speed stuff, plz let me know
PatrickMcGinnisII: gonna go eat some buffalo wing cauliflower
PatrickMcGinnisII: glhf
TBali: :)
AntiSquid: that's a new one to me ... next up pork wing cauliflower
MadKnight: h
Recal: i
ErrorQwerty: ew
ErrorQwerty: e
Kepax: sexy
Aayush.Curious: Hey guys; anyone here interested to be in a hackfest?
Aayush.Curious: It's in Frb.
Aayush.Curious: Feb*
Aayush.Curious: And..I want a really good coder for my team..