Chat:World/2021-01-23
Chillink: damn this website is still alive
Chillink: I just found this from an old reddit post
Salted: It's not only alive, it's awesome
Salted: I also found this through reddit
DaBestest: Hey!
Saad-py: They should add like a level thing in clash of code
Saad-py: somthing that lets you pick the dificulty
DaBestest: lol, they should
DaBestest: coc is super fun though
DaBestest: what are ur main coding languages?
Saad-py: python and python and pythn
DaBestest: I wasn't even going to try that one lol
DaBestest: same lmoa
DaBestest: *lmao
DaBestest: I'm trying to learn c# (it's kinda like python I guess), but I haven't gotten very far
Saad-py: i recommend that you learn C
DaBestest: I also do css and html (not considered languages, but whatever) and a tad of js, but that be it
Saad-py: whats your age or approx age
DaBestest: like i can figure out js with stack overflow and w3schools
DaBestest: between 13-17
DaBestest: you
Saad-py: I am very small for programming
DaBestest: oh nice! I started when i was abt 8 with like Scratch and stuff. hopefully you stick with it lol
Skwerl23: you guys are entertaining
DaBestest: oh thx lmao
Skwerl23: lol
Skwerl23: I know python, java, sql, powershell - i've been doing this for a little over 3 years, but have been in IT for 11
Skwerl23: I wish i could get my 10 year old into it... I have to find a way, the future IS programming
Saad-py: Try arduino, which will incourage them more
DaBestest: Ik. My parents keep saying that all the programming jobs are moving to India (some of them are sure), but not ALL of them. Tech is always going to be around and it is always going to keep advancing
Skwerl23: National security will always keep it in country. Besides that, the future is literally automation. You're either an engineer and design the robots, or a programmer and control the robots.
DaBestest: Get ur kid a raspberry pi (or arduino) they are super cheap and fun to mess around with. i got one for Christmas when I was abt that age (being the nerdy kid I was, I asked for one lol)
DaBestest: Yeah, honestly
DaBestest: And there is always going to be a custome
DaBestest: customer
Skwerl23: I got him a lego boost, and he made the cat. And played with the cat, and it just sits there
DaBestest: lol
Skwerl23: a raspberry pi is far beyond him. He'd maybe enjoy that other battle site for coding. Um, code combat
DaBestest: I guess don't make it something forced tho bc then they'll really hate it
Skwerl23: IKR
Skwerl23: i really should just go fix a bunch of shit and have him do the labor
DaBestest: there's mincraft on it and you can mess around with python on it
Skwerl23: I grew up around car mechanics and electricians, and picked up a TON of skills as a kid
DaBestest: yeah, i feel like some of that has been lost through the generation
Skwerl23: Sadly, he's more interested in talking to people than i was
DaBestest: especially gen z
DaBestest: lol
Skwerl23: It depends, but it can be weird. Today he was asking me what linux was cause i saw the short circuit on the librem 5
TerribleBill: how in the world do your reference the variables? I tried VSpeed v_speed, S and s crazy?
Skwerl23: in js?
DaBestest: My brother is that age and all he does is go on scratch and play games.
DaBestest: v = 4
Saad-py: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/19172b53-13e0-4f20-be4c-511acccdb0fd
Skwerl23: oh
Skwerl23: so variables in python
Saad-py: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/cf65288a-0d37-4220-9eb8-f0db05ac5dc6
DaBestest: or something like that, super easy
Skwerl23: they are just english words
Skwerl23: so like
TerribleBill: yeah simple lander thing
Skwerl23: v=5
Skwerl23: print(v)
TerribleBill: if v_speed < -41
Saad-py: Help the robot boy reach his destination. Given the number of tiles N, calculate the minimum number of jumps required for the robot to reach his destination. Here are the constraints: 1) The robot can jump up to 4 tiles at any point (say current tile is 2, then the robot can reach 3, 4, 5, 6 tiles in the next jump). 2) The destination is at Nth tile. 3) Assume Robot is on 1st tile.
Skwerl23: if v==5: print(v)
Skwerl23: I will
DaBestest: I don't do that stuff on here bc it makes me mad, I just do coc lol
Skwerl23: but your links don't work
Skwerl23: CoC is fun, but i enjoy the puzzles
Skwerl23: it's very rewarding to finish one
Skwerl23: i need the puzzle link
DaBestest: they didn't work for me either, but im on my school computer so i didn't know if thatwas just me
Skwerl23: not you it's personal to his account or something
DaBestest: yeah, but insanely hard to get started/finish
DaBestest: in my opinion
Saad-py: Help the robot boy reach his destination. Given the number of tiles N, calculate the minimum number of jumps required for the robot to reach his destination. Here are the constraints: 1) The robot can jump up to 4 tiles at any point (say current tile is 2, then the robot can reach 3, 4, 5, 6 tiles in the next jump). 2) The destination is at Nth tile. 3) Assume Robot is on 1st tile.
DaBestest: Not to brag or anything, but I just won a coc against people that normally beat me by like 10 minutes https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/report/155747530deb7e8c35fc40b1bebb2bd09685ea6
Skwerl23: just fyi
Skwerl23: bitwolf and the second one are for sure bots
Skwerl23: they aren't the same skill each round
DaBestest: yeah, ik lol
Skwerl23: lol
Skwerl23: your answer, may be used next time around as a bot
DaBestest: yeah
Skwerl23: @saad i need the direct puzzle link
Skwerl23: i have no idea how to "help" with out seeing it
DaBestest: I have a suspicion, and I want to see if it is true: in hs, which did you all like better, algebra or geometry?
Skwerl23: Well considering, I wrote calculator games (1998-2000) and aced my tests with out paying attention
Skwerl23: senior year, i only went on test days, cause it was after lunch, and still got a 92
DaBestest: that's irresponsible lmao
Saad-py: hey any good yt channel for learning algorithms, these competetive programming questions and intermediate python function
Skwerl23: it was highschool
Skwerl23: i calculated the minimum grade i needed to pass my other classes
DaBestest: did that not lower ur gpa by a ton tho?
Skwerl23: i'd say algebra was easier, and geometry was more fun to play around with.
Skwerl23: no
Skwerl23: 1 i was my teachers favorite cause i aced most the math tests,
Skwerl23: but 2, most math classes the tests were around 90% of the class grade
Skwerl23: That was my highschool at least
Skwerl23: that was 20 years ago, so forgive me if i don't remember it all that well
DaBestest: ok, yeah I really liked algebra but dislike geometry (probably bc it is more abt rules and algebra is more problem solving)
Skwerl23: iirc tests were 90% and homework was 10% of the grades
DaBestest: i was just wondering if the problem solving aspect had aything to do with the coding part yaknow
Skwerl23: i liked graphing random shit but i wasn't super good at geometry
DaBestest: oh, i hate graphing
Skwerl23: i'm a security researcher, so problem solving is my thing
DaBestest: yeah lol
DaBestest: so then did you enjoy the problem solving side of like proofs?
Skwerl23: i took an IQ test in HS - like 8 hours of time - and scored around 130. But my problem solving was like top of the charts, and my vocabulary was lowest "average" score
DaBestest: that's awful to have tests as 90% of ur final grade
Skwerl23: I would say, it came easy to me, so i didn't dislike it. Math is fun, I do it in my head a lot, even to this day. but it's not "fun" it's like breathing to me
Saad-py: binary string to hexadecimal string in pyton
Skwerl23: i'd say i enjoyed word problems though
Saad-py: any idea on binary string to hexadecimal string in pyton
Skwerl23: saad-py i know your young, but you can use better grammar than that
Skwerl23: but yes
eulerscheZahl: you're* :P
Skwerl23: for i in string: print(ord(i))
Skwerl23: touche
Skwerl23: ord("s") will turn s into hex
DaBestest: i like word problems too and I really enjoy the problem solving side of math
Skwerl23: I enjoy the problem solving of scripting a ton
DaBestest: yeah, same
Skwerl23: like trying to figure out how to ask 300k computers how to give me x data as fast as possible
DaBestest: yeah
Skwerl23: i'd rather spend 24 hours writing a script that completes in 5 mins with all the answers, than 1 hour and have a 24 hour script
DaBestest: I don't really have any clue abt what i want to do in the cs field, idrk
Skwerl23: a couple months ago, I had to scrape data from AD and it took over an hour to do the job, but after lots of tweaking and learning i got it down to 10ish minutes, and it had to be reused, so simplicity helped
Skwerl23: compsci cs?
DaBestest: Like i would either go full web-dev, front end stuff, or full cs idk
DaBestest: oh wow that's cool
Skwerl23: @saad - ord turns strings into hex, and chr turns them back to str's
DaBestest: bye
Skwerl23: bye
Saad-py: I got to prepare for my exam tomorrow
Skwerl23: whats full cs
Skwerl23: i'm in cyber security
Skwerl23: so i program for scripting mostly
DaBestest: i just mean like scripting
Skwerl23: but let me tell you
Saad-py: I have exams but still I am playing coc
Skwerl23: if you like problem solving, go full pentester
DaBestest: what's that?
Skwerl23: ok
Skwerl23: lets say google
eulerscheZahl: penetration testing
Skwerl23: creates a new tool
eulerscheZahl: find security holes
DaBestest: wait, tomorrow's sat (at least for me) lol
Skwerl23: well you go in and find flaws by poking at it. and they pay you for breaking their stuff
Skwerl23: it's the ultimate problem solving
DaBestest: ah, so like white hat hacking almost-ish
Skwerl23: not almost
Skwerl23: 100%
Skwerl23: white hat hackers are pen testers
DaBestest: oh that's cool
Skwerl23: but if you REALLY like algorithm's then CS might be right for you
Skwerl23: pen testing is more about simple scripts that break things
DaBestest: yeah, i know im doing cs, i just don't know what lol
Skwerl23: like it's not complicated to form a packet
DaBestest: oh that's cool
Skwerl23: it's complicated to create youtube
DaBestest: lol
Skwerl23: whats your favorite prog language
DaBestest: python
Skwerl23: why?
DaBestest: that's practically all I know
DaBestest: i know a tad of C#
DaBestest: some js
Skwerl23: python is backend
Skwerl23: js is front end
DaBestest: and then like html css (web dev stuff)
Skwerl23: c# is a mixture but more backend
Skwerl23: yea who doesnt ... LMAO jk
eulerscheZahl: now we have node.js for server-side JS :scream:
DaBestest: oh yeah for sure
Skwerl23: js needs to die in a fire
DaBestest: that' why ik js
Skwerl23: only thing worse than js is java
DaBestest: lol, i tried but gave up on java
Skwerl23: java is c++ mini
DaBestest: what's wrongwith js, is it just outdated?
Skwerl23: and java is just awful.
Skwerl23: no
Skwerl23: js is broken af
Skwerl23: one second
DaBestest: oh lmao
eulerscheZahl: wait, there was something with JS analogy
eulerscheZahl: wrong image
DaBestest: The holy trinity lmao?
eulerscheZahl: https://i.redd.it/pjrpnjyynjtz.jpg
eulerscheZahl: and a funny talk about JS https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
DaBestest: sorry, can't read. school computer blocks reddit:rolling_eyes:
eulerscheZahl: other link, same picture: https://img.devrant.com/devrant/rant/r_274586_HkG2t.jpg
Skwerl23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8xNAc2ic8
Skwerl23: there's funny ones but i can't find it. Javascript is beyond weird and super broken
DaBestest: oh, yep that's annoying lol
Skwerl23: pentesters - the best- are good at python, but mostly powershell and cmdline and linux cmdline
DaBestest: how does cmdline help?
Skwerl23: what if i hack into your server
Skwerl23: how do i do things?
DaBestest: ah
Skwerl23: i understand a TON of languages, but i can't code in most
DaBestest: that sucks
DaBestest: @saad-py didn't you have an exam lol
Skwerl23: OSCP was tough as hell, i had to read PHP, SQL, NOSQL, C++, Python, Java, Perl, and so on
Skwerl23: but when i sent my exploits, either they were 90% pre-built and i tweaked, or i created them in python. Then used cmdline windows/linux to maneuver and exploit further
Skwerl23: you need to udnerstand a ton of tools, like netcat, nmap, and so on
DaBestest: yeah, i can understand js, java, php, c#,c, c++ (the easy guys), but I haven't really put in the effort to be able to code it w/correctsyntax
Skwerl23: exactly
Skwerl23: there's a fine line between CS and pentesting
DaBestest: which is
Skwerl23: but pentesters are wizards at commandline
Skwerl23: and know the tools they can utilize.
Skwerl23: but we all google for help
DaBestest: I just heard this today and im kinda totally intrigued
DaBestest: oh google is the best hands down lol
Skwerl23: the best thing about a pen test team, is that there are dozens of skillsets
Skwerl23: you can be a god at door hacking.
Skwerl23: no joke, and you're invaluable
DaBestest: which is?
DaBestest: oh, duh
Skwerl23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YYvBLAF4T8
Saad-py: are there any specific tools for hacking
Saad-py: white hacking especially
Skwerl23: yes
Skwerl23: hundreds of them
Saad-py: can you name some of the most important
Skwerl23: Kali and Parrot are the linux distro's most white hat hackers start with
Skwerl23: they are packed full of hacking tools
Skwerl23: a linux distro
Saad-py: like a special linux based cm
Skwerl23: no
Skwerl23: have you heard of ubuntu
Skwerl23: or mint
Skwerl23: or redhat
DaBestest: yes mint, not ubuntu
Skwerl23: you haven't heard of ubuntu
Skwerl23: interesting
Saad-py: yes I have heard of ubuntu
eulerscheZahl: i always thought ubuntu is better known
Skwerl23: exactly
eulerscheZahl: than mint
Skwerl23: kali is like ubuntu or mint
Saad-py: it's a system like windows linux and mac
Skwerl23: but it's built with hacking tools
Saad-py: what do white hat hackers do
DaBestest: I've heard of mint from some of my coding friends.. i haven't done/researched anyting linux basedwhatsoever
Skwerl23: wanna crack wireless? use aircrack
Skwerl23: wanna crack passwords? use hashcat
eulerscheZahl: or good old john
Skwerl23: wanna scan ports? use nmap
Skwerl23: I actually prefer john tbh
Skwerl23: to pentest, you HAVE to know linux
Saad-py: I want to do whitehat hacking or try to crack passwords. GUIDE ME M'Lord
Skwerl23: lol
Skwerl23: there's way too much to just blurt out, but let me find a video course
Skwerl23: this is probably the best place to start
Skwerl23: https://www.hacker101.com/
Skwerl23: but i need you to listen, and listen VERY closely
Skwerl23: i am not joking my next few sentences can make or break your entire life
Skwerl23: learn the laws. it boils down to that. but learn the laws
Skwerl23: don't go poking into just any computer
DaBestest: yeah
Skwerl23: hacker101 is owned by hacker1 and they are a great place to start making money via white hat hacking. And you can do it totally legally and totally free
Skwerl23: but every company you attack, requires you to follow rules
eulerscheZahl: good point. my IT security prof reserved an entire lesson to discuss the relevant paragraphs in the law book
Skwerl23: if you don't understand them, don't break them
Skwerl23: i have 100's of hours in law training/guidance for this reason
Skwerl23: but that doesn't mean you need that much.
Skwerl23: just be extra cautious. And if you are NOT sure, spend time finding out what your limitations are
DaBestest: yeah, see that's what concerns me..
Skwerl23: if you accidentally break a law, don't panic. But if it's found that you did it intentionally, you're in a deep deep hole against million/billion dollar companies
Skwerl23: I do not want to scare you
Skwerl23: trust me
DaBestest: yeah, noo ur good lol
Skwerl23: most companies are more relaxed than you can ever imagine
DaBestest: what do you do?
Skwerl23: but if they say "don't do anything that hinders our customer access"
Skwerl23: then don't do anything that might do that
Skwerl23: I am actually military
Saad-py: People Who don't like jail: BRUH I don't care about hacking, I am good with my css
Skwerl23: I do threat hunting
Skwerl23: but in order to do threat hunting, you have to train on pen testing
Skwerl23: how do you find hackers, with out understanding how hackers work
DaBestest: lol
Saad-py: I want to start learning white hat
Skwerl23: i have probably over 2000 hours in hacking training and expertise alone
Saad-py: so first I should learn kali linux
Skwerl23: first i would learn linux
Skwerl23: linux basics
DaBestest: ok
Saad-py: But I have a windows lapop
Skwerl23: then learn some windows command line basics
Skwerl23: that's ok
Skwerl23: windows has linux built in
eulerscheZahl: you can use a virtual machine
Skwerl23: one sec for link
eulerscheZahl: WSL2?
Skwerl23: yes
Skwerl23: for linux basics especially
Skwerl23: I would use vmware for kali though
Saad-py: When I learn this whitehat, if I have a spare laptop or computer can I test my hacking on it
eulerscheZahl: or virtualbox, that one is free ;)
Skwerl23: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
Skwerl23: if you own the device
Skwerl23: it's yours to hack however you see fit
Skwerl23: if you hack your neighbors, it's not
eulerscheZahl: https://hackerone.com/bug-bounty-programs check if there are bug bounties. then you can legally tinker (as long as you don't take their website offline or such)
Skwerl23: this is how white hat hackers get great, they break their own stuff
DaBestest: y'all have offically made me make a google doc of all this info. You honestly just made my day lol
Skwerl23: hackerone and other bug bounties are legal ways to hack companies with lists of rules. to follow as to waht you can and can't do
kalier: As long as you don't attack others maliciously, it's legal
Skwerl23: like many companies have forums, and they will say "you must make a TEST forum post in order to test your attacks"
Skwerl23: you can't go attacking other users intentionally. etc..
Saad-py: do people build companies that are not real and let people practise their hacking??
Skwerl23: hackthissite.org is one
Skwerl23: it's a free for all
Skwerl23: but it's web based hacking
Skwerl23: so hacking is a multifaceted world
Skwerl23: you can hack websites
Skwerl23: you can hack services
Skwerl23: like if you have heard of eternal blue
Saad-py: One more question can I do this white hat hacking on a WINDOWS 7
eulerscheZahl: http://www.wechall.net/active_sites some are more about coding, others about crypo, ...
eulerscheZahl: lots of resources and training exercises
Skwerl23: against or with
kalier: just like the penetration tester
hiljusti: you can hack a chicken if you're fast enough
Skwerl23: there are tools in windows 7 i'm sure. but most of the good tools are in kali
Skwerl23: windows 7 is so broken, it's a better target than base station
kalier: you can,but kali has more tools
eulerscheZahl: another link with such events: https://ctftime.org/event/list/upcoming
hiljusti: start learning wherever you are though
Skwerl23: My best tip, is don't rush
Skwerl23: once you start learning kali
Saad-py: Are you online like every day or something
Skwerl23: https://overthewire.org/wargames/bandit/ is a great site to practice linux on
Skwerl23: and is more hackery than just personal terminals on your windows machine
Skwerl23: no, not really
Skwerl23: you can reach me at m.me/skwerl23
Saad-py: Thanks for guiding me
Saad-py: I will be sure to learn these things
Skwerl23: one pro tip
kalier: You can look for examples on the Internet and follow them
DaBestest: so like (one last question) how do you like "break into' a site, find weak spots
Skwerl23: learn every foundation you can. THEN find out what you enjoy, and master that
DaBestest: i know that is a VERY vague question
Skwerl23: hacking has literally hundreds of areas to master.
Skwerl23: there are many ways dabestest
Skwerl23: there are 3-4 main ways though
DaBestest: i'm getting super jedi master vibes lol
Skwerl23: 1. social engineering. Trick an employee to give you credentials
kalier: It's not just the Internet
Saad-py: Most people I know code to get better jobs but only some try to make the world a better place.
Right now I am working on Nexus the python library to make your typing less and life easier
Skwerl23: 2. find a known exploit and utilize it
Skwerl23: 3. brute force it
Skwerl23: 4. get the source code, and find your own way in
kalier: Reverse engineering also needs learning
DaBestest: ok, lets say i go to hackthissite.org, then what
DaBestest: like how do i start?
Skwerl23: Honestly
Skwerl23: that's an easy one
Skwerl23: that site is super SUPER common
Skwerl23: so follow a walkthrough
Skwerl23: and question everything you're doing
Saad-py: So users on this site can also get hacked
Skwerl23: @saad, wait a second
Skwerl23: then once you've followed the walkthrough, try again without the walkthrough
kalier: learn to use the tools and You know how they works
Skwerl23: until you can do it completely without the walkthrough
Skwerl23: then once you have finished hackthissite
Skwerl23: find anotherone
Skwerl23: like
Skwerl23: hackthis.co.uk
Skwerl23: and do it without walkthroughs
Skwerl23: in 6 months, you'll reallly be grasping a ton of it
kalier: you can also buy a book
DaBestest: omg, i am honestly so excited for tomorrow... yeah..
Skwerl23: hacking into a company is usually a 4-5 part process
Skwerl23: find the front hole
Skwerl23: use it to get into a front server, or a second hole
Skwerl23: get into a server, and move deeper in the network
Skwerl23: once inside hte network
Skwerl23: get admin rights
Skwerl23: and so on
kalier: but you shuold download vmware first
Skwerl23: penetration tester- it's the legal job name bascially for white hat hacker
Saad-py: so they just test something
Skwerl23: no
Skwerl23: they test for penetration
Skwerl23: can i penetrate your defenses
Skwerl23: can i hack you
Skwerl23: pentester is the short term for white hat hacker
kalier: install kali on the vmware or the usb
Skwerl23: if you have money. my recommendation is buy 4 or 5 used i3 laptops
Skwerl23: set them up with different os's
Skwerl23: and put kali on one
Skwerl23: then try hacking them. setup services and hack them
Skwerl23: get vm's from vulnhub and run them on different machines
DaBestest: @kalier I tried looking for books at the library about hacking, but none were very helpful and it would look super weird if i was just chekcing out 15 books on hacking lol
Skwerl23: hackers know a few main things. Linux command line, windows command line, tools used, and networking
Skwerl23: @dabestest
Skwerl23: that's the problem
Skwerl23: we WANT you to hack
Skwerl23: go get 500 books on it
Skwerl23: Just hack for good, not evil
kalier: Kali2020 does not have root permission,you should get it on kali BIOS
Skwerl23: do not EVER worry abotu some ones opinion.
Skwerl23: Think about cops
Skwerl23: and bank robbers
Skwerl23: banks hire people to steal their money
Skwerl23: so that they can improve their security
Skwerl23: it's the same thing
DaBestest: i was kidding, i check out the 20 csbooks from the library abt every time lol.. I got a whole shelf of coding libary books rn lmoa
Skwerl23: i'll find you a video on a red team stealing legally, and why
Skwerl23: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9q2lOZ1Fw
Skwerl23: you HAVE to watch that
Skwerl23: you'll understand better,
DaBestest: k, it's on my google doc lol
Skwerl23: then watch everything defcon and blackhat you can
Skwerl23: have you ever watched the lockpicking lawyer?
DaBestest: @skwerl23 I'm pretty sure you've done ur promotions for the day lol. Thank you so much, you've really sparked an intrest. (im not leaving, just saying thankyou_
DaBestest: nope
Skwerl23: he hacks locks on youtube
Skwerl23: and that's the same job
Skwerl23: hacking locks
Skwerl23: hacking doors
Skwerl23: hacking people
Skwerl23: hacking computers
Skwerl23: hacking cameras
Skwerl23: hacking dogs
DaBestest: oh that's cool
Skwerl23: you think about it, you can hack it
Skwerl23: it's why i say, learn a ton of fundamentals
Skwerl23: find something you LOVE and learn to hack That
DaBestest: ok, yeah that makes sense
Skwerl23: don't hack 300 things, hack 10-15 and be REALLY good at it
DaBestest: people lol
Skwerl23: derren brown
Skwerl23: look him up on youtube
Skwerl23: he hacks people
Skwerl23: has a few netflix specials
DaBestest: ok, that is weird... lol social hacking, scamming?
Skwerl23: yea basically
kalier: It's important to know the principle, otherwise you will only use tools.You can learn c++ hacker technology.
Skwerl23: if i call your mom, and say you're in jail, and i'm from the jail house, and i need x info
Skwerl23: she might fall for it
Skwerl23: but even worse
Skwerl23: if i tell your front door man that i'm IT and need to fix the servers
Skwerl23: they're gonna glass eye and say ok come in
DaBestest: yeah, that's in the paper all the time lol..
Skwerl23: wear a verizon shirt, and people let you in
Skwerl23: a team of hackers has specialists in each area
Skwerl23: but everyone can do any of the jobs, jsut not very good
DaBestest: Tho the fake phone ones are always the best. i get ones abt my car insurance being due,but i don't own a car.. those just make me laugh, but ik they can work
Skwerl23: so maybe the front man hacks people, but you know what he's doing, and you hack computers. and your buddy hacks doors
Skwerl23: you make it to the server room and steal billions
DaBestest: yeah
Skwerl23: wanna hear a crazy true story
DaBestest: yep
Skwerl23: so this team went in after a investing firm
Skwerl23: and he saw they had "insurance" you could buy, and that it was 5 bucks. and if you wanted you could refund it
Skwerl23: so he said "what if i refund it with out owning it"
Skwerl23: and sent some packets via python
Skwerl23: it gave his account 5 bucks
Skwerl23: so he set a script to do it as fast as possible
Skwerl23: he went to lunch
Skwerl23: came back and checked on it
Skwerl23: his account had 25 million dollars
Skwerl23: he asked them if they noticed anything weird
DaBestest: tyat is crazy
Skwerl23: they didn't
DaBestest: oh odd...
Skwerl23: after a week of searching (he explained what he did)
Skwerl23: they found the account it came from
Skwerl23: the interest it made, in that week was more than the cost of the team
DaBestest: wow
Skwerl23: he really debated not telling them and moving to mexico
Skwerl23: no
Skwerl23: it was his job
Skwerl23: he was PAID to find that stuff
Skwerl23: no, he had to give the 25m back
DaBestest: that stinks lmao
Skwerl23: lol
Skwerl23: but he wasn't in trouble at all, because he was in the "AOR" area of responsibility, of what he was asked to do
Skwerl23: it took them a WEEK to find the flaw, when he explained it
Skwerl23: imagine if REAL hackers got it
Skwerl23: they could have stole billions
DaBestest: oh.. that's awesome that that is something you can get paid for
Skwerl23: 1 hour gave him 25m
Saad-py: again what should I start with windows command line then linux and then kali linux
Skwerl23: start wtih hacker101
Skwerl23: follow their basic tutorials
Skwerl23: it's free
Skwerl23: when you have questions branch out
Saad-py: wanna do a private clash
DaBestest: sure, how
Skwerl23: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1557530c2a4ed1ce2773ed080f1b5968afd408d
Saad-py: I dont understand what to do
Skwerl23: :)
Skwerl23: let me know when you have 10 minutes left
Saad-py: what to do here, HINT
Skwerl23: add the left digits
Saad-py: what there is a digit only
Skwerl23: add the left individual digits
DaBestest: yeah... i'm working on that lol
Skwerl23: 1+2==3
DaBestest: 1+2=3
Skwerl23: 1+1 = 2
Skwerl23: 2+0+2+0
DaBestest: 3*number of digits
DaBestest: wait, nvm i said that wrong
Saad-py: BRUH the number is 12 so result would be 3
Skwerl23: how does the sum of the left digits correlate to the right digit
Skwerl23: how does 3 relate to 9
Skwerl23: think about it
Skwerl23: 9/3 = ?
Skwerl23: you guys are getting close
Skwerl23: add the left individual digits
Skwerl23: the right side is a square of the left sum
DaBestest: I JUST WANT TO SPLIT THE DUMB INTEGER BUT I CAN"T
Skwerl23: print(sum([int(i) for i in input()]**2)
Skwerl23: use a string
Skwerl23: instead of integer
Skwerl23: python can iterate strings
DaBestest: i tried that...i'm working on that
Skwerl23: sorry my syntax is broken
Skwerl23: print(sum([int(i) for i in input()])**2)
Skwerl23: or
DaBestest: no, ur good... i'm bad at putting it all in one line likethat...
Skwerl23: n = input()
DaBestest: yep, rn I have
Saad-py: Thanks for the answer
DaBestest: n=str(input()).split()
Skwerl23: y=0
Skwerl23: for i in x:y+=x
Skwerl23: print(y**2)
Skwerl23: yea it's python
DaBestest: but my strs and ints aren't converting well lol
Skwerl23: for i in x: y+=int(x)
DaBestest: OH... I just looked at ur code
Skwerl23: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/155753301dd04d36d1b2248fc8ca48ab29a44a5
jacek: happy Caturday
eulerscheZahl: happy Caturday
jrke: happy caturday
Skwerl23: took me s econd
Skwerl23: oh it was shortest?
Skwerl23: dammit
Skwerl23: lmao
DaBestest: yeah...
DaBestest: i didn't realize either
Skwerl23: i would have owned lmao
DaBestest: yep, lol
DaBestest: i just normally delete all the extra trash out of there for simplicity lol
Skwerl23: math.floor == //2
DaBestest: ?
Skwerl23: so whats 7/2
DaBestest: I was wondering why you did // instead of just /
DaBestest: 3.5..?
Skwerl23: i'm teaching you
Skwerl23: yea
DaBestest: ok
Skwerl23: 7//2 = 3
DaBestest: oh... i knew that... way back in my deep files of my brain lmao
Skwerl23: lmao
Skwerl23: i wish i knew it was shortest
Skwerl23: i would have probably gotten 95ish
DaBestest: welp that the easier way to do it
Skwerl23: if not way less
Skwerl23: dammit
DaBestest: 95ish what?
Skwerl23: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/155753951a250bdac24d4debbd34bb6547b8414
Skwerl23: characters
Skwerl23: that one is shortest guaranteed
Skwerl23: anyone else wanna join? mr. caturday?
DaBestest: oh
Saad-py: DAbestest any way I can talk yo u
DaBestest: i just sent you a priv saad
DaBestest: lol
Skwerl23: 104 characters
Saad-py: bruh I can't find a way to do this
DaBestest: I'm slowly but surely plodding along lol
DaBestest: if ur using python, this helps: http://pythontutor.com/visualize.html#mode=display
DaBestest: it works when i plug it into a visualizer, but not in the coc
DaBestest: but only 25%
Skwerl23: lol
Skwerl23: not a good coding practice
DaBestest: that used to be me all the time tho
DaBestest: now i think abt the problem all day lol
Skwerl23: true hacking is problem solving
cantcodehelp: i think the second testcase is wrong @DaBestest
Skwerl23: it's not
DaBestest: ?
Saad-py: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/95058d21-0746-4cc5-8a41-47e748d9438c
DaBestest: oof
cantcodehelp: i've done it manually, that sum isn't 147
DaBestest: oh,funny
Skwerl23: well, my code got it
DaBestest: omg lol
cantcodehelp: not well, dunno
DaBestest: mine kept getting an EOF error and idek why lol
cantcodehelp: not really a python guy, but seems like the same idea, however mine didn't get it right
Skwerl23: that happens When you ask for too many inputs
Skwerl23: you had input() in a loop on n didn't you
Skwerl23: or two loops
DaBestest: yeah, but that's how it was from the very beginnign
Skwerl23: range(s)
Skwerl23: not n
Skwerl23: it was poorly written
DaBestest: oh, duh that's why it kept getting it wrong
DaBestest: yeah, ik
Skwerl23: maybe i did it wrong
DaBestest: wait, my code or the problem?
Skwerl23: i'm drunk
DaBestest: classy
Skwerl23: the second number was likely length of strings
DaBestest: probably my code
DaBestest: oh
Skwerl23: and i got lucky he had the same length as lines or something
DaBestest: ohh
Skwerl23: he probably made squares
Skwerl23: it was probably n-1
Skwerl23: in his logic
DaBestest: i tried doing that but i still got errors
Skwerl23: rate it poorly
Skwerl23: i used s and got 100%
DaBestest: k
Skwerl23: for shortest
Skwerl23: replace tabs with spaces
Skwerl23: one single space per tab
DaBestest: oh
DaBestest: that makes sense
DaBestest: i just try to combine stuff on to one line if i can
Skwerl23: you would have had 21 less characters
Skwerl23: yea, CoC made me a LOT better at single line
DaBestest: yeah, but it didn't really matter
Skwerl23: but not perfect
Skwerl23: don't try to beat me
Skwerl23: try to beat you
DaBestest: i'm awful at single line and code golf stuff
Skwerl23: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/155754972f7c46df32c6487a43a58b59a038e09
Skwerl23: anyone else wanna join?
Skwerl23: come on cantcodehelp
Saad-py: start Idt anyone else gonna join
Skwerl23: calm down mister 14
Skwerl23: life is about partnerships
Skwerl23: you didn't learn the stuff i just taught you on your own
DaBestest: :joy:
DaBestest: Guys, this has been fun, but it's late and I can't think straight abt code rn. This truly made my day though, and I can't wait to check out some of that hacking stuff.
Skwerl23: find me on m.me/skwerl23
DaBestest: Alrighty, see ya later.
DaBestest: i don't do messenger, I will talk to you through the priv codingame chats tho
Skwerl23: hold on
Skwerl23: pm me
Skwerl23: https://pauljerimy.com/security-certification-roadmap/
Skwerl23: that's the roadmap to white hat hacking/analyst certifications
cantcodehelp: looks like at least 2 days worth of studying
Skwerl23: at least
Skwerl23: i have OSCP
Skwerl23: and that alone took 450 hours to earn
DaBestest: bye guys, talk to you agin sometime soon... I'll probably be on more often now
Skwerl23: i have 3 sans certs, 1 of them was easy, but the other 2 took probably 200-225 hours
Skwerl23: each
Skwerl23: the easy one was around 80 hours
Skwerl23: with college, i've never done the math but around 5000 hours of training.
Skwerl23: it never ends in cyber security
cantcodehelp: i don't think it ever ends in anything really
cantcodehelp: you're constantly learning
Skwerl23: in IT, if you're good
Skwerl23: yes
Skwerl23: trust me, i have had plenty of subordinates that didn't go far, because they didn't want to learn
Skwerl23: but Cyber Security requires infinite training, it's why i tell people to learn all the basics, and find what you love, then specialize, cause you'll drive yourself mad with training
cantcodehelp: everyone learns daily, to what extent is up to them :sweat_smile:
Skwerl23: lies
Skwerl23: people CAN learn daily
Skwerl23: and many do
Skwerl23: but trust me, many don't
Skwerl23: otherwise we wouldn't have people attacking the capitol
cantcodehelp: cybersecurity might be a special case tbh, i assume you have to be up to date with everything in order to be efficient
Skwerl23: the stuff they're learning is not knowledge
Skwerl23: it's not as crazy as you think
cantcodehelp: ha, you're from us? :sweat_smile:
Skwerl23: many of the up to date stuff is automated
cantcodehelp: that capitol stuff was crazy
Skwerl23: yes, and if you think those people learn daily, oh man
philRG: @Skwerl23 nice roadmap, but this is a no-go imho or if you have 30 years in learning.
philRG: these acronyms have been created for organizations specialized in e-learning
philRG: s/have been created/benefits to/
jacek: finally someone at chess is trying
eulerscheZahl: and that someone isn't you it seems
WoIf: anyone help with code4life
egaetan: Wolf ? maybe i can
egaetan: what's your question ?
WoIf: what input is id for lab
WoIf: I used sampleIid but error invalid connect you are not carrying sample 2
egaetan: it is sampleId
egaetan: you should have something wrong with the ids you are carrying
Angecide: I feel like the uttt leaderboard might be a bit too random
Angecide: it feels like I am submitting the same bot, but now I am 29th for some reason
Angecide: but before I was like 40 or something
Angecide: I guess, with random moves and some people getting timeouts and such, luck is a small factor in placement as well
MSmits: Angecide it's not the random moves
MSmits: it's mostly that bots are close in strength
MSmits: the moves aren't actually random, the random rollouts are random, but the statistics gathered from this can be quite deterministic, only having 2 or 3 reasonable options each turn
MSmits: imagine if you have 30 bots close to eachother on the leaderboard that are exactly equally strong. What rank would one get?
Angecide: yeah that's true, when people are placed too close to each other, even small changes can have big impact in placement
MSmits: thats what happens. Mostly it's because creativity in the search algorithm has only a small impact on the bot
MSmits: a few people stand out because they found some heuristics that help, but most people just stick with basic mcts
MSmits: and the difference is then mostly due to performance and even if you have 10-20% more sims, it will not affect winrate all that much
MSmits: from my tests, if i halved my simcount vs myself, the bot would go from 50% to 40% winrate
geppoz: python question: it is safe to call .remove in a for loop on the same looping object?
geppoz: the loop will iterate any item still?
MSmits: not sure if it is allowed, but it's not safe
MSmits: generally if you have to do that, make sure to count backwards
geppoz: i mean without counting:
geppoz: for item in array:
MSmits: that's not gonna work
MSmits: i think
jacek: :scream:
geppoz: if ...: array.remove(item)
jacek: im gonna call python police
geppoz: for item in array:
geppoz: if ...: array.remove(item)
geppoz: :D
eulerscheZahl: jacek he stole your #1 troll spot right there
geppoz: it seems to work fine
geppoz: just wondering if always safe
MSmits: thats even worse imho
MSmits: it works but you dont know why :P
VizGhar: :D
BlaiseEbuth: Like the whole python...
geppoz: :D
eulerscheZahl: JS is more of a mystery to me
MSmits: Why === that?
BlaiseEbuth: Of course, js has the palm
MSmits: you mean like a tree BlaiseEbuth?
MSmits: :palm_tree: ?
BlaiseEbuth: Meh. I have to verify words before using them in english... ^^'
jacek: has the palm - leading the way :?
BlaiseEbuth: Doesn't 'palm' used to designate a prestigious prize in english ? like "academic palm"
MSmits: sounds vaguely familiar
MSmits: js has the market, you probably meant
MSmits: or the monopoly
Astrobytes: Medal BlaiseEbuth
BlaiseEbuth: I meant the "gold medal" in the mysteries category.
geppoz: or crown
eulerscheZahl: my first thought when I read "palm": ":palm_tree: or :hand:?
eulerscheZahl: :hand:
eulerscheZahl: :(
eulerscheZahl: :hand_splayed:
MSmits: can someone just train a NN to translate BlaiseEbuth already
BlaiseEbuth: Seems to typically french... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palme_d%27Or
MSmits: :P
BlaiseEbuth: *to be
geppoz: also italian
geppoz: "palma d'oro"
BlaiseEbuth: Ah !
MSmits: aha
BlaiseEbuth: You just have no culture... :3
eulerscheZahl: i would completely fail in any quiz show like "who wants to be a millionaire"
MSmits: thats an easy question euler, just say me
eulerscheZahl: oh, that show has more questions for you
MSmits: owww
eulerscheZahl: about movies, music and such culture stuff
MSmits: its weird for me to watch those
MSmits: i dont know half the answers at least
MSmits: and then comes a physics or math question and i am disgusted by how easy it is
eulerscheZahl: i would ace some of the questions where contestants really struggle
eulerscheZahl: and then at the "easy" ones that they can quickly answer, i would fail hard
MSmits: well i can probably answer the easy ones, I live with a normal person
MSmits: sometimes we socialize and i learn this stuff
geppoz: in Italy it is a shame to ignore everything, but the math/physics :(
MSmits: thats why you're here geppoz
MSmits: we love you here
geppoz: I mean for example our managers, they will be ashamed if they didnt know the year of the America's discovery
geppoz: but they naturally said "I know anything of math"
eulerscheZahl: i go with 1498
geppoz: without shame
geppoz: wrong man :D
eulerscheZahl: but close :P
eulerscheZahl: if you see Columbus as the discoverer
eulerscheZahl: October 12, 1492
geppoz: he was just someone got lost :D
eulerscheZahl: just 1 click away. but understanding how maths works is a much longer process
eulerscheZahl: and more fruitful to do something with the understanding
MSmits: very true
geppoz: oops, I meant: but they naturally said "I know nothing of math"
geppoz: without shame
geppoz: sad story
eulerscheZahl: I got the message after a short confusion
geppoz: :D
eulerscheZahl: you failed logic :P
geppoz: I failed english :(
eulerscheZahl: but it's common for major parts of our society :( perfectly acceptable to say that you hated math in school while you get odd looks for some other subjects
geppoz: that's another thing to be ashemed of, and here it is not so much
geppoz: (to fail english)
eulerscheZahl: my mom helped my niece with 2nd grade math homework, i coincidentally saw it
eulerscheZahl: and my mom was like "that's a hard one, you probably won't get it"
eulerscheZahl: how encouraging
geppoz: :D in 8 minutes I'm going to teach geometry to my niece too
eulerscheZahl: which grade? old enough to be slightly interesting?
geppoz: I mean, university geometry (vector spaces)
eulerscheZahl: ok, that's fine
eulerscheZahl: I admire teachers willing to explain the most basic things year after year
geppoz: geometry was the first exam in my electronic engineering studies, wonderful teacher
Rddevelop: is there a way to get back to a clash of code after time is over?
geppoz: Rddevelop : I never was able to
eulerscheZahl: advertising intensifies http://eulerschezahl.herokuapp.com/codingame/puzzles/
MSmits: can you handle the traffic?
MSmits: nice: here's everything by euler:
MSmits: https://eulerschezahl.herokuapp.com/codingame/puzzles/?q=euler&category=ANY&author=on
MSmits: in case you want to do a good puzzle
eulerscheZahl: earlier the day I got this request:
eulerscheZahl: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/4a95902f-cc2e-457c-8a76-8d7e21095137
MSmits: pastebin failed
Rddevelop: thanks euler very useful
eulerscheZahl: my search function is poor, scales linear with the number of words you enter
eulerscheZahl: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
eulerscheZahl: imagine someone copying the full statement and the search taking 15s to process the query
MSmits: ow
MSmits: just cap it
MSmits: who would need more than 5 words anyway
eulerscheZahl: that sounds like a hacky way
MSmits: ignore everything after 5
MSmits: yeah
eulerscheZahl: i'd rather do a proper search but i don't feel like it
geppoz: the meaning of more words is "AND" or "OR" ?
eulerscheZahl: right now i search the full database (1400 contributions) for each of the words in the query
eulerscheZahl: and then do an AND after
MSmits: well bubblesort also works fine for small numbers : )
MSmits: dont overengineer it
eulerscheZahl: and creepy stalking toad tells you that Rddevelop searched for "tower"
geppoz: (no, that was mine try)
eulerscheZahl: :D
geppoz: (dunno why it was the word that came into my mind???)
jacek: so you would fail the efficient search clash
MSmits: your towering intellect geppoz
geppoz: no it is from the puzzle of the week
eulerscheZahl: at least i finally migrated from sqlite to postgres
derjack: 1900 :tada: https://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player.jsp?plid=140575
trictrac: well done jacek !!
eulerscheZahl: nice is it allowed to use bots there?
jacek: dunno, i havent been banned yet
eulerscheZahl: :D
MSmits: it does say "derjack-bot"
MSmits: it's not like you're hiding it :P
eulerscheZahl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os4DcbpL0Nc&ab_channel=CodeBullet
jacek: i saw other _bots
eulerscheZahl: did you fight those bots?
jacek: no, i dont know how
eulerscheZahl: and how do you communicate with bot-website? manual process?
jacek: if possible
jacek: html parsing
jacek: its 'correspondence' only 24h to move, but i use only about 10 seconds per move
eulerscheZahl: ah. so nothing close to real time
jacek: no :(
eulerscheZahl: how many games can you start at once?
jacek: at most i had 5 games
jacek: registered august last year and played 36 games so far
eulerscheZahl: those are noob numbers :P
eulerscheZahl: https://www.sokobanonline.com/community/profile/eulerschezahl
eulerscheZahl: 1560 boards solved in 5h of playtime
MSmits: werent you sokobanned from there?
eulerscheZahl: no, i stopped because i realized that i'm violating their ToS
jacek: you dont read ToS?
eulerscheZahl: stopping before entering top10 and getting noticed
eulerscheZahl: i read them while my bot was solving
eulerscheZahl: tried to use my bot on sokoban.info first
eulerscheZahl: but managed to send an invalid solution with an extremely short path and get #1
eulerscheZahl: so that was boring
MSmits: ahh I see
struct: hello
MSmits: hi
struct: Just need to make player ui now I think
struct: https://i.imgur.com/YesAHCk.png
MSmits: looks like funky checkers
1400179: I suggest to use texture instead of primitives
1400179: Your circles are extremely pixelated
struct: I guess I can do that
struct: you are right
1400179: Sorry if it's harsh criticism, you wouldn't believe the time I spent getting the chess pieces just right :p
1400179: OCD or something
MSmits: well if they are placeholders for something else, it's ok right?
struct: Well I wouldnt have changed
struct: but criticism is good
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: i thought you were going with queens
1400179: I would also make the squares more distinguished from the background
MSmits: yeah
1400179: Maybe a less depressing color palette too
struct: I also agree with that, I need to find something else for background
trictrac: Hello reCurse, in chess it seems that all the taken material is not fully displayed in the ui ?
1400179: Uh? Do you have an example?
trictrac: https://www.codingame.com/replay/523806459
1400179: Ohh
1400179: Got it
1400179: I only display the deltas
trictrac: ok fine
1400179: If both sides captured 2 pawns I don't see the point of displaying them
1400179: Maybe should have made that an option
jacek: what a mess. who aproved it
1400179: That's how many chess websites do it...
trictrac: I just not see that was the delta only. It's OK like that
MSmits: reCurse, upgrade troll recognition software
MSmits: include a heuristic: If(sender == jacek)
1400179: Meh
MSmits: that chess replay looks like a serious chess game now
1400179: Getting there :)
MSmits: other replays i saw looked worse than noob :P
MSmits: not easy to make a chess bot
1400179: There is so much information out there though it kind of balances out
jacek: i still need to implement castling, en passant and draw by repetition
jacek: and switch to birboards
jacek: bitboards even
MSmits: bitboards are a lot harder too, in chess
MSmits: compared to those simpler board games
1400179: Depends
MSmits: i should say, a lot more work, not necessarily hard
1400179: If you want to make them as efficient as possible sure
1400179: Just to get something basic going, not much harder than othello
MSmits: just more bitboards. All I need for othello is two uint64_t
1400179: Sure
1400179: I'm kind of stumped, my NN is kind of mediocre at evaluating positions
1400179: Could be a lot of things
jacek: just like human
MSmits: well... chess is a far more complicated game.
1400179: You know it's funny
1400179: I get the impression my NN would do better at chess than othello
struct: How do NNs handle end games on chess?
struct: without tablebases
1400179: Probably badly
MSmits: that seems really hard
1400179: But by then you don't need an eval anymore
MSmits: depends on the endgame and how close it is
MSmits: some endgames take 100 moves to finish
MSmits: or more
trictrac: the problem is to put NN coef in 100 Ko char with so much char to do the move generator in bitboard
1400179: Man I really don't understand why this keeps getting brought up
1400179: There is no issue with code size
1400179: You'll hit runtime issues way before you fill that size
MSmits: mmh in your case
MSmits: maybe you just did it better
MSmits: Robo did mention using the full amount
MSmits: could be with chess the bottleneck is runtime issues and if you had more resources, it would also have problems with codesize.
1400179: Well if you do NNUE I guess you could hit size issues
MSmits: and if you had more codesize, it would have problems training and making use of it
1400179: But really the basis is with 50 or 100 ms on a single cpu core
1400179: You really can't do much
MSmits: yeah, i keep hearing about 3k sims or something
1400179: By the time you hit code size you'll have like 10 sims or something lol
1400179: Of course you need to abuse CG as much as possible but still
MSmits: hmm so there is actually a tradeoff here
MSmits: do you try to make your NN smaller so it is faster?
MSmits: less nodes, more sims
1400179: Not a committed decision but yes
1400179: I could fit much larger NNs in my bots
1400179: But the number of sims would drop so much I don't think it's worth it
MSmits: it might be worth experimenting though
MSmits: to be sure where the optimum lies
1400179: Sure
1400179: The thing is
1400179: There are so many such hyperparameters
1400179: And you never really know whether more training would do it or not
MSmits: yeah I suppose so
1400179: So you always have way more possibilities than you have compute to experiment
1400179: So you have to choose
MSmits: so what you're saying actually. Is that I can both make a small NN and have an opening book too
1400179: Only if you're despicable
MSmits: got it
jacek: well i could use more codesize
jacek: my NN is sparse input and the speed vs size isnt issue (except maybe for some cache missing)
jacek: its like having bigger n-tuples doesn't slow you down
MSmits: having a 10 seed db instead of 9 seed db in oware did slow me down due to cache issues
MSmits: it looks up the win when a leaf hits the seed limit
1400179: I think a lot of what makes CG unique is to work with very tight constraints
MSmits: i kinda like that
jacek: and many games on CG after all. littlegolem's correspodence games isnt enough
1400179: I mean sure you have better bots with huge tablebases
1400179: But it makes me kinda meh...
1400179: Same with books
MSmits: generating the tablebases themselves is a real skill also. for oware I generate them in first second
MSmits: its not even in codesize
1400179: I'm somehow fine with that?
MSmits: I don't know, are you?
1400179: Yeah
MSmits: for bandas i generated them offline, the end game tables
MSmits: its too complicated in that case to do it fast
MSmits: fits in 27 kb so its fine
1400179: Definition of tight constraint is arbitrary
1400179: Fits mine though
1400179: If you can make it run on CG
MSmits: right
1400179: Book is different because it destroys the generalization
1400179: Though not sure why they would be different than tablebases fundamentally
MSmits: depending on how you generate it imho
MSmits: i do 2 kinds
MSmits: general books (doing one for connect 4)
MSmits: and targeted books
MSmits: the second is somewhat cheesy yes
1400179: I guess I'd have to be against hardcoded tablebase to also be against hardcoded books
struct: I rather face tablebases than books
MSmits: there's a grey area, but sometimes you can go so far into the grey its nearly black
MSmits: thats what me in old john did to othello
MSmits: me and
MSmits: honestly, general books will never be enough to beat an obviously stronger bot
MSmits: but focused books can beat any deterministic bot and even somewhat more random bots
1400179: Yeah there's no question focused books are definitely dumb
MSmits: some games on CG are so simple though, that even a focused book becomes general enough to beat even pretty random strong bots
MSmits: because the amount of good moves is just too low
1400179: Screw books, doesn't matter the kind
MSmits: we should keep encouraging randomized starts when it is at all useful
MSmits: like your chess
1400179: Not my chess tbh
1400179: Chess players faced that issue way before bots existed :p
MSmits: makes sense
MSmits: I remember kasparov complaining he didnt have the time to prepare vs deep blue
MSmits: thats basically saying he didnt have time to generate a book
MSmits: in his head
MSmits: they gave him games played by an earlier version
MSmits: which of course were different. The same way Robo changing a parameter screws up my hardcoded moves :P
1400179: Well I can't speak for him but from what I gathered, it wasn't necessarily about conventional preparation
1400179: He wanted to prepare unusual lines
MSmits: oh right, anti-engine chess
1400179: So countering deep blue book
1400179: But not against deep blue preference
1400179: Just to avoid that hardcoding advantage
MSmits: right
MSmits: well also the eval might be biased some way that can be exploited
1400179: That he wouldn't know
MSmits: thats probably hard indeed, he could find that the bot makes mistakes in certain situations though
1400179: What you do know is a GM who remembers more theory can come out stronger in the midgame
1400179: Even throwing curveball opening is a thing for the same reason
MSmits: right
1400179: Fischer basically claimed chess was dying because of all that opening theory
1400179: That's why he invented 960
MSmits: well it's not a particularly attractive part of the game imho.
jacek: and the one saying that is... ^
MSmits: me?
MSmits: well there's two different things: A) what is effective and B) what is fun
jacek: :sweat_smile:
MSmits: solar glasses guy is B
MSmits: the opening stuff, hardcoding moves etc. is very effective and makes you win, but notnecessarily fun
MSmits: i like it for some games if they are particulary interesting, but not generally
MSmits: so having to choose between winning and having fun is kind of annoying. Which is why i also prefer the random start games now
1400179: Solar glasses guy?
1400179: Oh nvm
jacek: :B
jrke: i am trying to run offline referee so how can i add cpp file as agent?
struct: brutaltester?
jrke: no
struct: you are using sdk for it?
struct: just compile the cpp file
jrke: offline referee
jrke: gameRunner.setAgent("");
jrke: what should be inside it
struct: "path\compiled.exe"
jrke: "/simulation.exe"
jrke: not working ^^
struct: thats not the entire path is it?
jrke: its saved in same folder still it needs whole path?
struct: try it
jrke: oh thanks working now
struct: Also you can run a batch of games easil
struct: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/25775/codingame-sdk-documentation/game-runner
struct: scroll to testing part
jrke: thanks
jrke: its showing me timeout in turn 1 everytime
struct: does your bot use a lot of time?
jrke: no
jrke: does it needs any libgcc_s_gwc2.dll
struct: no idea, I use msvc on windows
jrke: fixed 2 lib files were needed
M3T4: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/15582268e8b1748b13d3403b6d3da5deebd8270
M3T4: anybody interested in c C++ clash
jacek: c++ shortest?
M3T4: as long as evrybody is using c++
NotPiro: does any1 know how the score for CoC ranking is calculated?
Skynse: in fastest mode, its based on who can finish the fastest
Skynse: But the base ranking system is how far you complete the test cases
NotPiro: i understand that the better you perform, the better the score, but is the algo for it public?
RoboStac: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueSkill
Skynse: only if you show your code
struct: its based on your opponent rank
NotPiro: btw under what rank is usually considered decent?
Skynse: In clash of code?
Skynse: I usually aim for first
NotPiro: not in a match, like the global leaderboard rank
Skynse: oh
Skynse: ohhh you mean that rank
Skynse: level or rank name? could you specify?
NotPiro: ok when i go to the CoC compete page i see my ranking : 326(th)/206015
eulerscheZahl: most of those 200k aren't actively clashing anymore
eulerscheZahl: so they slowly drop
NotPiro: my ranking is way too low, (mostly bcz of inactive users) and that's why i was asking how low is good
eulerscheZahl: good is relative
Skynse: my rank is 7,178
Skynse: pretty decent I'd say
NotPiro: true good is relative, so what's good for you? i just wanted opinions
Skynse: Ive mostly been doing CoC so there's no huge change I think
M3T4: so i have to clash with the best if i want to climb the ranks faster
struct: yes
M3T4: does provate clashes count ?
moshema: i see majority are in python
M3T4: when the questions are too easy i don't stand a chance with c++
moshema: How the question difficulty level measure? is it random?
Wontonimo: Skynse: you can check out other users rank by clicking on their profile and seeing what there CoC rank is. If it looks like it has dropped recently but otherwise they have high rankings in other things, then like euler said, they just haven't been active so don't count it.
struct: if you wanna be competitive on coc you cant use c++
struct: maybe in 1% of the clashes you might be as fast
Wontonimo: M3T4: it's not just about clashing with the best to climb. Losing against someone with a way lower trueskill will set you back a lot. Generally, aim to be consistent and to do better than you did last week and you'll go up in rank.
notofyourinterest: how do you become a mod?
Wontonimo: have you checked out the profiles of the mods? Pretty badass. Focus on getting there first :)
struct: most of the mods are very active users
M3T4: that's exacty what's happening to me i rise slowly to 1000th then i fall on shortest and i'm back to 2000
M3T4: guess i'll keep playing hoping i dont get shortest code
Velcoro: I was exactly in that situation half a year ago (Kotlin, Java).. so I learned Perl, now I love shortest :)
Totomns: same here, i'm used to writing in C/C++ at work, but after being defeated at code golf, i prefered js
reCurse: Asking how to be mod is a guaranteed way to never become one
MSmits: ohh
MSmits: how to be a mod?
jacek: how not to be a mod?
Astrobytes: Be you.
MSmits: trust jacek to make it shakespearean
MSmits: yay my beamsearch works. I tested it on the 5 character validator
MSmits: it had the same length though =/
VizGhar: which puzzle?
MSmits: code of the ring
DomiKo: the worst one
MSmits: I love it
Astrobytes: Well, it works.
VizGhar: oh nice I kinda hate optim... but working now on Mars3 maybe I'll find some little space in my heart for those
MSmits: I like them, i am just not as good at them as botting
VizGhar: but still congrats on every little achievement :P
MSmits: less tools in the box
VizGhar: ++
reCurse: Kinda ironic coming from one of the most hardcoders
reCurse: :P
MSmits: mmh without NN I can beat you at uttt
reCurse: Allegedly
Astrobytes: Post-truth
MSmits: you know I am unreasonably honest
reCurse: Except you had no way to determine that
MSmits: ah, well all i did was remove my book and do a cg bench vs your leaderboard version
MSmits: small edge, not that much
reCurse: My LB version was the most specific booked bot ever created
MSmits: hmm ok
MSmits: well it's not just uttt anyway, also beat every non NN on oware
MSmits: without book
reCurse: Besides where is that coming from anyway
DomiKo: Ok how leaderboard work. Why there are so many battles with 10 bots in arena?
Astrobytes: But NN-beating on Oware was the goal
MSmits: still is Astrobytes
reCurse: I was just saying you enjoy hardcoding stuff so it's kind of ironic you wouldn't enjoy optims
jacek: what arena with 10 only?
DomiKo: Chess
Astrobytes: Indeed MSmits
MSmits: reCurse it's the reverse, i dont enjoy hardcoding and i do enjoy optims :)
jacek: it was always 90 :?
MSmits: the fact that i hardcode does not mean i enjoy it. I just do it cuz it wins :P
jacek: said the biggest book(m)er ever
reCurse: Yeah seriously lol
reCurse: I call bs sorry
MSmits: well to be completely fair, i like it with yavalath
MSmits: dislike it with most other games, but it works
Astrobytes: It wasn't Smits who said he didn't enjoy optims
MSmits: no i loved numbershifting
MSmits: and some others
MSmits: also the hardcoding is different from doing it in bots imho
MSmits: you're not trying to hardcode an entire game tree with optims
MSmits: just a few solutions calculated offline
MSmits: and sure, the fact that it is offline, creates a large advantage, but a smart algo is still hugely important
MSmits: I ran samegame for 2 weeks or so and did not get a very good score at all
MSmits: cuz my algo sucked
DomiKo: 100% true
DomiKo: jacek I can't checkmate you :(
MSmits: oh I see the confusion now. I do like using meta mcts a lot. That's not the same as hardcoding though, the hardcoding is a product of it. But the meta mcts itself is interesting because you discover things about the game you're researching
reCurse: I was using it as an umbrella term yes
MSmits: ah ok, good that thats cleared up then
Astrobytes: Still hardcoding though :P
reCurse: Offline computing doesn't quite cut it because it includes training and such
reCurse: So apologies for my limited vocabulary
Astrobytes: Limited vocabulary my ass :)
reCurse: Your posterior
MSmits: no worries. Personally, I think creating a general opening book isn't any more cheesy than training a bot in any way. It's the targeting of specific opponents that is cheesy
reCurse: It is though
MSmits: how so
jacek: mhm i wonder if othello had many more strong users your books would stand any chance
MSmits: it would jacek, othello is so simple, i can encode probably the entire tree of good moves into it
MSmits: i am using 1% of codesize
MSmits: currently
reCurse: How is that not cheesy
Astrobytes: Is struc t gonna do the forced openings
Astrobytes: ?
struct: I cant do it without breaking the bots
Astrobytes: And yeah, that is 100% cheese
MSmits: it is reCurse, but i am still targeting players when i do that, it's just that with 100 players, many of them would be using the same moves
MSmits: they already do now
Astrobytes: Even with a new league struct?
reCurse: Well I'm assuming at that point it would become a generalized book
reCurse: Which is where you draw the distinction
reCurse: And where I don't see one
jacek: i like making generalizing opening book
MSmits: there is one for more complex games though
MSmits: yeah and jaceks books are far less effective because of this
MSmits: i think they are fine
struct: I could open a new league sure
jacek: :(
struct: but still I dont want to release a very strong bot
MSmits: i mean you're not doign cheesy stuff jacek
struct: due to bug
MSmits: thats good :P
jacek: only chessy stuff
MSmits: right
MSmits: struct do you mean you're afraid the boss code will be stealable
VizGhar: Hmm can somebody help me? writing simulator for mars lander. vSpeed and hSpeed are computed correctly, but X and Y coordinates not :thinking: why should possibly x += hSpeed be incorrect?
reCurse: I'm not convinced othello is fixable anyway
VizGhar: *not be correct
reCurse: Something about input being completely wrong VizGhar
reCurse: You have to ignore it
reCurse: It uses float but gives you int
VizGhar: yeez i fixed correct statement with statement with same meaning :D
struct: yes MSmits
jacek: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/645/713/888.jpg
MSmits: a reasonable fear i guess
Astrobytes: On that note (stealable boss) can it not be obfuscated?
MSmits: obfuscated still leaves it to be copy pastable
reCurse: What bug, it's still downloadable even if you don't put the game as downloadable?
struct: yes reCurse
reCurse: Uh
reCurse: Can someone steal chess boss and send it to me in PM
struct: sure
struct: one sec
jacek: oO
MSmits: well suddenly i am happy most bosses are weak :P
struct: can i put it in a private apstebin reCurse?
struct: and pm it?
reCurse: Yes
jacek: pm the hash
1400179: lol what a joke
1400179: ffs CG
1400179: Glad I didn't put anything sensitive there
jacek: huh
struct: This was reported
Astrobytes: oh you beat me
Astrobytes: :(
MSmits: struct be careful you dont post here how it works
struct: long ago, first by euler if I recall
struct: sure
reCurse: Yeah and it was supposedly fixed after
reCurse: smh
struct: no
Astrobytes: Yep. I think it happened during BR
struct: the fix was to delete the code manually
struct: by cg
reCurse: Oh so it got fixed manually but not at the source
reCurse: wow
Astrobytes: Yeah, something about the princess is in the other castle or some other Mario reference
struct: I was not aware of this when Ive asked for a boss code for othello
struct: otherwise i would never have asked
Astrobytes: (the text they replaced it with)
Astrobytes: I wasn't aware until euler told me relatively recently.
1400179: Whatever, 5% concerns anyway
MSmits: should this be hard to fix?
Astrobytes: Obfuscation?
struct: Well I got an official answer
struct: Not sure if I should say it though :S
jacek: hm?
struct: euler reported it first, but i also reported it
struct: when I published othello boss
BlaiseEbuth: Something like "Fix it yourself 5% guy !" ? :3
1400179: If it's official answer then
1400179: Why hide it
struct: Well it was on pm
struct: Basicly its not an easy fix, they will see if it becomes problematic
MSmits: it's problematic
struct: no
struct: because its 5%
BlaiseEbuth: ^
Astrobytes: Heh.
Astrobytes: Jeez.
struct: I dont get on how its not an easy fix but w/e
VizGhar: jeez, so newX position on mars is obviously not x+new_hsx but x+(old_hsx+new_hsx)/2
DomiKo: What is it about this 5% thing?
VizGhar: 5% are competitive guys
Astrobytes: OK, huge influx of alt accounts abusing boss visibility incoming then? (I am joking, for the record)
MSmits: DomiKo it's something that came out of the last brainstorm session
1400179: Competition is more and more defocused because it only represents 5% of what people are interested in CG for, according to their survey
DomiKo: I tried to read most of it
1400179: So it became a meme
DomiKo: nice
struct: that worked for exp thing Astrobytes
Astrobytes: Yeah. Not my style though.
MSmits: doubt westicles would get away with it a second time either :P
Astrobytes: Can't argue the apparent efficacy.
Astrobytes: I now appreciate the 'making a lot of noise' thing.
1400179: Doesn't always work
1400179: I'm done with noise
MSmits: no, dont shout "four more years" if you want it fixed quickly
MSmits: "stop the steal" might work though
Astrobytes: Agreed. Focused noise. I'm not a fan of doing it all in public tbh.
Astrobytes: Even then, what's the point these days.
struct: Well it wasnt my idea to discuss this in the chat
struct: My fault
MSmits: dont worry about it struct
Astrobytes: Ah no, I didn't mean you or this chat struct
Astrobytes: General methods of 'getting CG to listen' is what I mean.
struct: I dont feel bad about it, I just think creator should be aware of it
struct: creators*
MSmits: yeah definitely
MSmits: currently the guy creating connect4 is trying to write a strong bot
MSmits: to make 2 leagues
Astrobytes: Oh is that why he went quiet?
jacek: it doesnt need to be strong
reCurse: Hmm I think NN should be much easier on C4
MSmits: yeah he put it back up
Astrobytes: Cool.
MSmits: well you can test it now reCurse
reCurse: I'm not done with othello yet
reCurse: Almost though
jacek: *5 years later*
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: i'm not counterbooking anyone on connect4, I promise
Astrobytes: Echoes of UTTT....
struct: just make an ai that beats random
struct: its more than enough
reCurse: No I think I've found the answers I was looking for as far as othello is concerned
jacek: heuristics?
MSmits: struct also needs to beat always picking lowest index move or some stuch
MSmits: such
Astrobytes: ^
MSmits: i would just pick 1 reasonable heuristic and then it will beat both those
MSmits: for connect4, i would go with what i put in my random rollout. Finish wins and avoid giving away wins
Astrobytes: With regards to which part reCurse? (If you want to say)
MSmits: endgames i think
reCurse: Why NN eval was weak
MSmits: his NN had problems with that
jacek: and why was that
reCurse: I already mentioned all that yesterday
reCurse: You were there I think
MSmits: because the endgame is volatile and other bots can just solve it
reCurse: Thanks
jacek: so you added endgame solver?
reCurse: Yes
jacek: meh
reCurse: Winrate went dramatically up
MSmits: did you go with ab or PNS or something more creative you dont want to give away?
Astrobytes: PNS?
MSmits: proof number search
reCurse: I didn't do PNS but the inspiration was very good
reCurse: Thanks for that
MSmits: np
Astrobytes: MSmits: I know man ffs, I was in that convo, I was asking if he used it!
reCurse: Good read, it's rare to see a paper so digestible
MSmits: lol
jacek: now read about mcts solver
Astrobytes: It is a great paper.
reCurse: I already know mcts solver
jacek: from that paper right
Astrobytes: Yeah but the paper is a Must Read,
reCurse: Which one
MSmits: the mcst solver paper is fine until you hit the pseudo code
Astrobytes: ^
reCurse: Which paper is a must read
Astrobytes: It's worth looking at just for that.
Astrobytes: The solver one.
reCurse: mcts? PNS?
jacek: a mod wouldnt troll you
MSmits: mcts i guess
jacek: https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/documents/uctloa.pdf
MSmits: it was a good explanation
Astrobytes: MCTS solver, sorry.
reCurse: I thought the mcts solver paper to be quite poor tbh
Astrobytes: Yes! That's why it's a Must Read.
MSmits: well i thought the pseudocode was bad, but the explanation was easy to understand
reCurse: Wait what
jacek: maybe its just dutch people cant write good paper
Astrobytes: I couldn't believe it when I got to the pseudocode and questioned everything I'd thought I'd understood.
MSmits: nah it's just these guys doing tons of research on these algorithms
reCurse: lol
reCurse: So those two papers came from the same guy
reCurse: Interesting
MSmits: i think their budget allocation accidentally has one or two zeroes added
MSmits: compared to other unis
Astrobytes: Winands was it?
reCurse: As much as I thought mcts solver to be meh the PNS one was pretty good
MSmits: yeah its always winands
Astrobytes: hehe
therealbeef: Winands sounds like it could be Belgian too
Astrobytes: You should meet up with him MSmits
Astrobytes: Teach him some stuff
MSmits: well he should come here and learn to use his stuff competitively
Astrobytes: Yeah reCurse, the PNS paper is good for sure
reCurse: I really don't think that's what they care about
MSmits: well their loss
MSmits: they just dont know what they're missing
Astrobytes: Since Rémi is here, maybe they'd listen...
MSmits: I think they'd be better at their job if they tested their stuff here. Think about how quickly you learned to do stuff here in your free time
MSmits: competition is a great motivator
reCurse: Remi cares about it, just at a much higher level than CG
Astrobytes: True.
reCurse: We're the schoolyard of AI
reCurse: Fighting for king of the sandbox
reCurse: (or queen, my bad)
Astrobytes: Doesn't invalidate CG as a useful platform for them though.
jacek: where else could i test my bots?
MSmits: on littlegolem :P
Astrobytes: I mean, CG could - you know - perhaps communicate with them and strike a deal... (nooooot)
reCurse: Did you just assume their business model
Astrobytes: Sorry, my bitterness is shining through.
MSmits: some sciency stuff going on can beef up your reputation
Astrobytes: Eh. Where's the fun in that.
MSmits: you did not just say science isnt fun did you
therealbeef: Half the work of a scientific article is finding the right problem for the theory
jacek: science is fun except the physics
Astrobytes: Read between the lines MSmits. For a scientist you do miss a lot :D
MSmits: lol therealbeef
reCurse: :thinking:
MSmits: Astrobytes i cant, it was only 1 line
Astrobytes: You pedantic little... :D
MSmits: I try
MSmits: therealbeef that sounds like mathematical theory
Astrobytes: I'm also guilty of that particular crime rather often.
MSmits: or actually no, mathematicians dont even care about practical applications :P
Astrobytes: Just the mathematics is practical enough
Astrobytes: Mathematics -> MOAR MATHEMATICS
Astrobytes: Like theoretical physicists
MSmits: I dont mind highly abstract math stuff, but there has to be some kind of carrot at the end of the stick, even if the stick is very long
Astrobytes: They're physicists in theory
therealbeef: all the major algorithms that dominate on many problems have been found by now. now it's all about a variant on a well-known algorithm and finding the perfect problem on which it outperforms the generic algo by 1%
jacek: https://xkcd.com/669/
Astrobytes: lol
reCurse: I first read genetic algo and was on my way to get triggered, mission aborted
Astrobytes: therealbeef: but on CG at least (I think it was reCurse who said it earlier? I was afk a lot earlier) the time constraint is the real hurdle.
reCurse: Uh? I said that for NNs btw
Astrobytes: It's true (generally) on CG imo
Astrobytes: Problem-dependent ofc
Astrobytes: I mean your offline alphabeta is gonna play much better chess with > 50-100ms time limit right. So it pushes you to optimise, think outside the box etc
Astrobytes: (Optims not included, unless you only do online solvers)
therealbeef: CG benefits algos where you can tune the time/quality balance
therealbeef: alphabeta is quite bad here
reCurse: ??
jacek: !!
Astrobytes: Heh heh heh
Astrobytes: You're doing it wrong.
MSmits: reCurse I completely agree on GA. I admit it works, but it repulses me. Much prefer SA
MSmits: might be the biology themed description
MSmits: not sure
**Astrobytes is triggered instantly
MSmits: hehehe
MSmits: I am supposed to prefer SA, it's physics themed
Astrobytes: Cause materials/physical chem is SO much better eh! Tell that to a NN :P
MSmits: mmh good point
Astrobytes: I jest. I think they both have valid uses.
MSmits: yeah, GA just doesnt seem appealing to me
struct: minimax works very well in many games
MSmits: yet i prefer mcts as well
Astrobytes: SA can be more of a black art than GA sometimes. GA is good for tuning parameters imo
DomiKo: GA here is so simple :(
Astrobytes: As opposed to being your main search algo. Again, situation dependent.
DomiKo: nobody is talking about fancy stuff about GA :(
MSmits: many people say GA is simple, but I think that's just because they learned it and used it a lot
MSmits: SA is much simpler
1400179: GA pretends to be so much smarter than it is
therealbeef: with minimax/ab you tend to waste so many ms if you just fail to complete an extra ply within the time limit
jacek: thats when jacekmax comes int *.*
jacek: in even
MSmits: mcts vs minimax is very domain dependent
MSmits: also calculation time dependent
MSmits: low calc time -> minimax wins, there's a treshold somewhere
MSmits: i think if you play uttt with 1ms then mcts would suck
Astrobytes: 'GA' covers a lot of algorithms tbh, not just a straightup rolling horizon thingy
Astrobytes: They can get quite sophisticated, not sure I see an application on CG for them though.
DomiKo: But GA here is equal to RHEA
DomiKo: that's a problem
MSmits: whats RHEA again?
Astrobytes: Yeah, that's what I'm saying DomiKo
MSmits: and why is there a "GA here", what about GA is CG specific?
Astrobytes: Rolling Horizon Evolutionary Algorithm
DomiKo: if someone is talking about GA
DomiKo: he is actually talking about RHEA
MSmits: ahh ok so just a misnomer
Astrobytes: On here yes.
MSmits: is either of those two more complicated
MSmits: ?
MSmits: do we leave out features here?
DomiKo: yes GA is more than one algorithm
Astrobytes: WAy more.
DomiKo: its like fammily of algorithms
MSmits: so is RHEA not biology themed then?
Astrobytes: And a whole field of research too.
DomiKo: yap it isn't
MSmits: i should give our "GA" another look at
Astrobytes: Loosely biology-themed but not overly.
MSmits: mmh are they rolling animals?
Astrobytes: No.
MSmits: mm ok
DomiKo: more formaly GA is about {0, 1} only
DomiKo: if I'm not mistaken
MSmits: thats just binary
DomiKo: yap
MSmits: you just described all of computing
DomiKo: I mean
DomiKo: our function is {0, 1}^D
MSmits: ow ok
DomiKo: so only binnary strings
DomiKo: yes
MSmits: ah i see, you encode your solution in a binary string and your population is those strings
DomiKo: then we got like ES (evolution strategies) which are R^D
DomiKo: there is a lottttt
DomiKo: but here(CG)
Astrobytes: It's a massive area of research
MSmits: yeah when i was doing that AI course, the professor was working on that also
DomiKo: most of problems have Integer Space of something like that
DomiKo: and in most games more sims = better score :(
MSmits: is that really a fundamental difference, it being integer as opposed to any number?
Astrobytes: aCat can talk about evolutionary algos if you're interested
wjan: Question: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/07a1a579-39bc-4528-b6f9-ed30a2155564
Astrobytes: wjan: Pastebin isn't working right now
MSmits: it's question though
MSmits: perhaps it expired?
wjan: I'm doing Chuck Norris - Code Golf but I'm stuck on the third test where the input() is "%". when I do ord(%) i get 37, which in binary is 100101 which in this chuck norris code should be 0 0 00 00 0 0 00 0 0 0. However, this is not the right solution. My code worked for the first two tests (where Input() is "C" and "CC"). What am I doing wrong?
MSmits: the padding
MSmits: i think
MSmits: needs to be 8 bit
Astrobytes: Is this the padding thing? 7 bits
MSmits: or 7
MSmits: not sure
Astrobytes: something like that
MSmits: so add a zero on the left
MSmits: or maybe two
Astrobytes: (pad until required length :P )
VizGhar: 7 is right
MSmits: so 100101 becomes 0100101 or 00100101 either of those tow
MSmits: 0100101 then
DomiKo: the biggest fundamental difference is search space
Astrobytes: S**te puzzle lol
wjan: so every letter needs 8 bit. ok i get it.
MSmits: it's kind of funny, but silly
DomiKo: it's so hard to make good eval
MSmits: the spaces might as well be ones
DomiKo: that isn't "random"
jacek: where
Astrobytes: You mean generally or on CG DomiKo?
MSmits: wjan it's 7 bits i think
MSmits: but try both
DomiKo: on CG
MSmits: depends a lot on the game/optim doesnt it DomiKo?
DomiKo: yes
DomiKo: but in genneral in games you can make like 10 moves and then one BAD move and that's it
DomiKo: so good solutions aren't "close"
MSmits: you're talking about the boardgames
MSmits: or not?
DomiKo: Mars Lander too
MSmits: hmm
MSmits: numbershifting is like that as well
MSmits: if you make a mistake it becomes unsolvable
MSmits: how to score an unsolvable board?
MSmits: it's kind of all or nothing
Astrobytes: I think he's referring more to what makes a good evolvable solution.
MSmits: yeah, but thats what i mean also
MSmits: how do you evolve a ns solution
MSmits: either it works or it doesnt
DomiKo: that's true too
MSmits: i'm sure it is possible, but i find it hard to imagine is all
Astrobytes: I don't think I would use an evolutionary algo on NS tbh
DomiKo: you can't really measure how far from solution it is
MSmits: Astrobytes but people use SA and SA is also kind of evolving. You're making changes and scoring them
MSmits: it's just a 1 population algo
Astrobytes: Yeah, it's not quite the same thing.
MSmits: it's not, but it has some similar problems in common
DomiKo: and the best thing CROSSOVER
MSmits: like how, do you make small changes that do not completely kill any chance of finding a solution
DomiKo: it's like crossover make only sense when two good solution make good solution
DomiKo: butt it's most cases it don't
Astrobytes: Yes. Crossing two excellent solutions often results in F**K ALL :D
DomiKo: I think that's why most people don't like RHEA
DomiKo: and will go with SA
DomiKo: beacuse it's "the same" but without crossover
MSmits: i think more use RHEA here
MSmits: it's more 5% that use SA
MSmits: the
MSmits: which is weird to me, because it seems simpler. GA (RHEA) has just been hyped too much
jacek: use PSO [solved]
Astrobytes: You did that and found no difference.
jacek: me?
MSmits: whats PSO again?
MSmits: I googled it
Astrobytes: Particle Swarm Optimisation
MSmits: no luck
MSmits: oh
DomiKo: MSmits always add "algorithm" at the end
MSmits: this has nothing to do with ants fungus or slime does it?
MSmits: good point DomiKo
Astrobytes: Yes jacek, you said you tried it on something on here a while ago
jacek: ahh right, i think its like GA but more local
jacek: so like SA
MSmits: it also has Particle in the name
MSmits: so might be physics themed?
jacek: :unamused:
Astrobytes: Swarms MSmits, swarms.
MSmits: of particles
MSmits: like in the LHC
jacek: today i found nevergrad framework and i think im gonna use it to tune some parameter
DomiKo: :joy:
Astrobytes: "Bite my shiny metal ass"
MSmits: oh thats a bender thing
MSmits: i will try to do bender after cotr i think
jacek: bender gender?
MSmits: fender bender?
Astrobytes: It's been on my list for some time MSmits. That and Space Maze.
MSmits: but space maze is a puzzle?
MSmits: right?
Astrobytes: Yeah.
MSmits: I guess puzzles are fun too. I do too few of them
Astrobytes: But it's kinda optim-y
MSmits: yeah because otherwise you time out
Astrobytes: I prefer not-puzzles but it's a good one.
MSmits: i need to fix my beamsearch. Tried it on a bigger spell in cotr, it does 24 characters correctly, then screws up the last 9
MSmits: weird bug
Astrobytes: off by one or something
MSmits: yeah it might be something like that
MSmits: but it already goes back and forth a bunch of time and goes over the edge too, no problems till 24
MSmits: funny that the test case is the exact inverse of the validator and my solution is also the exact inverse. So whatever the bug is, it is quite symmetric
Astrobytes: That's encouraging.
struct: Should I make the pieces move always the same speed
MSmits: I suppose so
MSmits: good question struct
struct: for example if it moves 1 squre it will move slowly, if it moves 10 it moves fast
MSmits: choice between same speed or same move time
MSmits: same move time gets annoying for small jumps
MSmits: it would be moving really slowly
Astrobytes: Yeah, some scaling would work for sure.
struct: ok so same time should be better
MSmits: no i meant that migth not be better
jacek: isnt it the same?
struct: oh right
MSmits: small jumps would mean it moves really slow with same time
struct: currently its same time
struct: ok so based on distance
jacek: the same speed per square
struct: 1 square should take N milliseconds
MSmits: distance per square
MSmits: square per speed?
MSmits: my physics is malfunctioning
MSmits: help!
Astrobytes: Scale the move speed with the distance
MSmits: thats it
MSmits: sometimes you just need a biologer for the simple physics
struct: should be simple enough
Astrobytes: MSmits: :rofl:
MSmits: if you need me to point out a tiger, let me know Astrobytes
**Astrobytes goes back to supersymmetry
Astrobytes: hahaha
jacek: oh Caturday is over
MSmits: not for Astrobytes
Astrobytes: ^
MSmits: it's really weird you and I are in the same timezone jacek
MSmits: we should be 2 hrs apart
jacek: hm?
struct: Is UK time always the same as portugal?
MSmits: the distance
MSmits: it's greater than 1/24 of the diameter of the Earth
MSmits: circumference
MSmits: srty
struct: It seems it is
Astrobytes: Yeah struct, UK, Portugal and Spain
MSmits: well that makes sense
struct: Not spain
struct: Spain is +1 hour
MSmits: like France
Astrobytes: Yeah my bad
MSmits: we had this discussion about daylight savings, which is called "summer time"and "winter time" here
MSmits: for some reason people thought it would always be summer if we stopped switch
MSmits: switching
MSmits: that was literally the argument
MSmits: "i like the summer, lets do that"
struct: its gonna stop switching here
struct: Or is it worldwide?
Astrobytes: wtf. Here in Scotland we have the issue that it will be dark.
Astrobytes: At the wrong time.
MSmits: good you added that last bit
MSmits: otherwise i would suggest the north pole
MSmits: and south pole, depending on the season :)
Astrobytes: I'm not sure what the Brexiters signed up to in the agreement tbh
Astrobytes: My ex worked in Antarctica for a season. I have a penguin feather :P
MSmits: if they changed it here, it would be dark till 10 am or something
MSmits: lol
Astrobytes: Yeah, 9am or thereabouts here.
MSmits: iI read this as penguin father
MSmits: at first
MSmits: i was like... whoa confession
Astrobytes: (Adélie penguin)
Astrobytes: And lmao
Astrobytes: "Penguin father" is amazing.
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: i love penguins
MSmits: I remember when i was young thats kind of the only animal i was interested in seeing in the zoo
MSmits: they had these little ones
MSmits: i dunno what it is about them, they're just cool
Astrobytes: They are amazing. Incredible birds.
MSmits: yeah
struct: They are birds?
MSmits: I dont even think of them as birds
MSmits: but i suppose so
Astrobytes: Yes they are.
Astrobytes: Flightless and water-loveing
Astrobytes: *loving
Astrobytes: well, aquatic
Angecide: it feels like I have reached my limit with traditional mcts solver on uttt and I wanna maybe try look into training an evaluation NN to replace my simulator and I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good paper training an eval nn?
Astrobytes: I like Emperors and Rockhoppers
MSmits: Angecide i dont think uttt is the best place to start learning that
Astrobytes: ^
MSmits: try oware instead
MSmits: many have had succes
MSmits: uttt is notoriously hard
Angecide: I see, do u know a good paper on top of your head that you would recommend?
MSmits: not a paper no
MSmits: but if you find a good resource, please share with me
MSmits: there's tons of videos, little demos and assignments to find
Angecide: I can try, I will start researching tomorrow, see if I can figure something out
Angecide: or I guess it is today
MSmits: you'll have to piece stuff together from various sources
MSmits: people often start with basic tic tac toe, or something simpler
MSmits: like a XOR operation
Angecide: ye I know the gist of ML
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: i also think there are many valid ways to do it on CG
MSmits: and the best way probably hasnt been found
Angecide: I was thinking maybe training a model to emulate mcts, I believe that is what muzero is about if I understood it correctly
MSmits: you can use tensorflow too
Astrobytes: Talk to re Curse, robo, inory y (where is he anyway?), jacek... there are a lot of people who can give you some guidance on specific issues
MSmits: mmh it doesnt emulate mcts i think?
MSmits: it uses a similar treesearch
Astrobytes: For CG I think it's a0 you want to be investigating based on my limited knowledge
MSmits: and then uses a policy for choosing an action and a value from a state evaluation
Angecide: I think more in the sense of predicting the best move like what an mcts would predict to be the best move, maybe the algo I was thinking about wasn't muzero
MSmits: yes muzero is basically a0 except it figures out the game rules along with the best way to play the game
MSmits: if i remember correctly
MSmits: so it doesnt know the sim at all
Astrobytes: Yeah something along those lines MSmits (re policy/value)
MSmits: it just makes illegal moves and learns the rules from that
Astrobytes: WAs that conversation from yesterday or day before? (Pretend it's Friday)
struct: hmm, high distance seems slow, short distance seems fast
MSmits: not sure Astrobytes
MSmits: struct use a power
MSmits: make it nonlinear
Astrobytes: ^^^^^^
struct: So the reverse of power right?
MSmits: between 0 and 1
MSmits: i am guessing
struct: oh ok
MSmits: so, like a squareroot
MSmits: at 0,5
struct: The reverse :D
MSmits: but try what works best
MSmits: it's still a power, but if it helps to think of it as a reverse, sure :p
Astrobytes: Angecide: mu/alpha zero conversation here: https://cg.spdns.eu/wiki/Chat:World/2021-01-21
Angecide: btw, assuming I have trained a NN, how does people even port the weights back to CG? Is there some clever serialization hacks for it?
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: just pack it as small as possible and unpack in the first 1s
MSmits: no need to go too far with that though
Angecide: I see, perhaps it isn't too difficult once I get there
MSmits: baby steps
Astrobytes: Plenty people here that will help you with specific questions.
struct: Square root seems to look good
MSmits: nice
struct: thanks
MSmits: np
Astrobytes: Have you fixed the colour-scheme yet struct?
Angecide: yea I really like this community of bot competition, I get that u can't reveal all the secrets becasue of competetive edge and such, but just learning small bits and improving is very cool
VizGhar: I plan to start with NNs later this year. I'll need you guys :) any recommendations for neither dumb nor wise guy where to start?
MSmits: Angecide depending on who you ask, some people reveal too much :P
VizGhar: MIT lectures seems nice
MSmits: I usually keep only 1 or 2 things back at most
struct: https://i.imgur.com/ETBh12y.png
struct: its not final
struct: I dont know what to do for colors
MSmits: much better than it was
Astrobytes: That's way better struct
MSmits: I always doubt the colors too
struct: I need to change the yellow highlight to something else
struct: The red is where wall will be placed
struct: the current yellow is from and to
struct: where move was
MSmits: a different shade of yellow?
Astrobytes: A tint or something on the aquares?
Astrobytes: *squares
Astrobytes: Or a border?
struct: I currently have something over the square
struct: Might not be visible for colorblind people
Astrobytes: I can see the highlighted squares
Astrobytes: I mean rather than a colour change as such, change the hue or tint or whatever on the colour of the appropriate squares.
Astrobytes: Transparency even
Salted: Has anyone ever played with aws deep racer?
Astrobytes: No. He cheated and I ran away.
Astrobytes: Seriously though, I have never heard of that.
struct: Cant change the tint of rectangles :(
struct: only sprites
Astrobytes: Consult re Curse
struct: I can change the color though, currently i just put something over it
struct: Like a yellow rectangle
Salted: Ha! I just learned its a 1/18th scale rc car that amazon hosts for machine learning racing.
Astrobytes: You cannot even change the transparency?
struct: I can
struct: I can put a yellow over and change the transparency
Astrobytes: That may work then struct.
Astrobytes: Fairly high transparency
struct: Of the highlight?
struct: or the square itself
Astrobytes: The highlight. You may need to adjust depending on square colour
Astrobytes: (I'm just theorising here, I'm not acquainted enough with the SDK yet)
struct: So I should make it more transparent?
Astrobytes: Yes, for a start at least.
Astrobytes: Salted: I'd never even seen this before
Astrobytes: Looks interesting
Salted: I learned about it in an aws class.
struct: I guess I also will need to change color too, since the yellow will hide well
Astrobytes: Yes struct, that's why I said adjust based on square colour
Astrobytes: :D
Astrobytes: Sorry, I should have been a little more concise.
Astrobytes: Salted: Learning about AWS stuff in an AWS class? Who'd have thunk it!
Astrobytes: MSmits: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Antarctic_adelie_penguins_%28js%29_21.jpg/1920px-Antarctic_adelie_penguins_%28js%29_21.jpg
Salted: Astrobytes: Ha! It came right after learning about aws snowmobile. The 100 PB truck they send out for massive data stuff. You can drive your own tiny version using aws deeprace.
Astrobytes: Salted: That's pretty cool actually
Hedayat_Farahi: hello
Hedayat_Farahi: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1558618fd6adce969db4be9a65742a31eb21bd0
Hedayat_Farahi: join the clash
Astrobytes: No.
MSmits: penguins!
MSmits: :penguin:
Astrobytes: Adélie penguins
Astrobytes: If I remember I'll take a picture of my FEATHER
Astrobytes: (caps in case you misread it :P )
MSmits: lol
Astrobytes: And you get a cool personalised stamp for letters you send from Antarctica too
MSmits: oh, nice
MSmits: do they have e-mail servers on antarctica, i want a personalized stamp for my mails
MSmits: mmh i can just put a penguin in them i suppose
MSmits: at work, we without warning got the ability to use profile pics in our mails
MSmits: so most used a real pic
MSmits: and then one physics colleague used buzz lightyear
MSmits: noone said anything about it
MSmits: so i went with woody
MSmits: but i forgot I often have meetings with the boss :P
MSmits: and it showed on my ms teams thingy
MSmits: so now he probably thinks i have a toy story obsession
Astrobytes: hahahha
Astrobytes: They do have a limited internet connection in Antarctica yeah
Astrobytes: But it's reserved for family/urgent communication. Everything else is snail mail.
MSmits: hmm what about that cat that refuses to be petted on YT?
MSmits: that's urgent
MSmits: mmh I will remember to download all my Norm on Conan episodes next time i go to Antarctica
Astrobytes: Well, at least in the French station they have a lot of parties. Much eating and much drinking.
MSmits: yeah that's a French thing
Astrobytes: There were Italians there too, which is an interesting dynamic
Astrobytes: (no deaths I may add)
MSmits: i imagine
MSmits: that's a plus
Olusola: hello world
Astrobytes: Well, no documented deaths.
MSmits: hello Olusola
MSmits: :hugging:
Olusola: Hii
Olusola: You're clashin?
MSmits: nope
MSmits: crashin' soon though
Olusola: clash of code, who's in?
Astrobytes: The participants.
Olusola: yeah:stuck_out_tongue:
Hedayat_Farahi: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1558633c74bcf5f1b0c56938aaa1a367862097b
Hedayat_Farahi: join the clash
Astrobytes: No.
Hedayat_Farahi: Olusola wassup
Olusola: sure in
Hedayat_Farahi: how are u doing brother
Astrobytes: Ahhh, such beautiful synergy.
painor: is site a bit slow ?
MSmits: might be Bilbo's fault, i just submitted
MSmits: yay it worked, i did BS on the short spell and shaved off 22 characters compared to my manual solution
Olusola: how come,
MSmits: sorry, i was talking about code of the rings optim
Project-Magenta: This site is insane
Project-Magenta: I have so much lag
therealbeef: should be better in 15 minutes. it's slow every night between 1 and 1:30-ish CET
Project-Magenta: Ok
Olusola: let's clash again
Olusola: hello
Olusola: anyone?
Project-Magenta: HITMAN 3 is very good
Skynse: man I hate mosquitos
Skynse: Came back just to say that I got it now I can go back to sleep lmao
Skynse: Was wondering why the place was so quiet then I saw it on my monitor
kalier: How can I prove I am not a bot?
jacek: ask AutomatonNN
AutomatonNN: why do you think it works the same thing as well?
Skwerl23: I know kalier isn't a bot