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Default avatar.png Chillink: damn this website is still alive

Default avatar.png Chillink: I just found this from an old reddit post

Salted: It's not only alive, it's awesome

Salted: I also found this through reddit

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Hi all

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Sup

DaBestest: Hey!

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I am new here

Default avatar.png Saad-py: They should add like a level thing in clash of code

Default avatar.png Saad-py: somthing that lets you pick the dificulty

DaBestest: lol, they should

Default avatar.png Saad-py: haha I am a begineer

DaBestest: coc is super fun though

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ikr

DaBestest: what are ur main coding languages?

Default avatar.png Saad-py: python and python and pythn

DaBestest: I wasn't even going to try that one lol

DaBestest: same lmoa

DaBestest: *lmao

DaBestest: I'm trying to learn c# (it's kinda like python I guess), but I haven't gotten very far

Default avatar.png Saad-py: i recommend that you learn C

Default avatar.png Saad-py: or JS

DaBestest: I also do css and html (not considered languages, but whatever) and a tad of js, but that be it

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yeah

Default avatar.png Saad-py: whats your age or approx age

DaBestest: like i can figure out js with stack overflow and w3schools

DaBestest: between 13-17

DaBestest: you

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I am very small for programming

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I am -14

DaBestest: oh nice! I started when i was abt 8 with like Scratch and stuff. hopefully you stick with it lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yep

Skwerl23: you guys are entertaining

DaBestest: oh thx lmao

Skwerl23: lol

Skwerl23: I know python, java, sql, powershell - i've been doing this for a little over 3 years, but have been in IT for 11

Skwerl23: I wish i could get my 10 year old into it... I have to find a way, the future IS programming

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Try arduino, which will incourage them more

DaBestest: Ik. My parents keep saying that all the programming jobs are moving to India (some of them are sure), but not ALL of them. Tech is always going to be around and it is always going to keep advancing

Skwerl23: National security will always keep it in country. Besides that, the future is literally automation. You're either an engineer and design the robots, or a programmer and control the robots.

DaBestest: Get ur kid a raspberry pi (or arduino) they are super cheap and fun to mess around with. i got one for Christmas when I was abt that age (being the nerdy kid I was, I asked for one lol)

DaBestest: Yeah, honestly

DaBestest: And there is always going to be a custome

DaBestest: customer

Skwerl23: I got him a lego boost, and he made the cat. And played with the cat, and it just sits there

DaBestest: lol

Skwerl23: a raspberry pi is far beyond him. He'd maybe enjoy that other battle site for coding. Um, code combat

DaBestest: I guess don't make it something forced tho bc then they'll really hate it

Skwerl23: IKR

Skwerl23: i really should just go fix a bunch of shit and have him do the labor

DaBestest: there's mincraft on it and you can mess around with python on it

Skwerl23: I grew up around car mechanics and electricians, and picked up a TON of skills as a kid

DaBestest: yeah, i feel like some of that has been lost through the generation

Skwerl23: Sadly, he's more interested in talking to people than i was

DaBestest: especially gen z

DaBestest: lol

Skwerl23: It depends, but it can be weird. Today he was asking me what linux was cause i saw the short circuit on the librem 5

Default avatar.png TerribleBill: how in the world do your reference the variables? I tried VSpeed v_speed, S and s crazy?

Skwerl23: in js?

DaBestest: My brother is that age and all he does is go on scratch and play games.

Default avatar.png TerribleBill: py 3

DaBestest: v = 4

Default avatar.png Saad-py:

Skwerl23: oh

Skwerl23: so variables in python

Default avatar.png Saad-py:

DaBestest: or something like that, super easy

Skwerl23: they are just english words

Skwerl23: so like

Default avatar.png Saad-py: bruh

Default avatar.png TerribleBill: yeah simple lander thing

Skwerl23: v=5

Skwerl23: print(v)

Default avatar.png TerribleBill: if v_speed < -41

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Help the robot boy reach his destination. Given the number of tiles N, calculate the minimum number of jumps required for the robot to reach his destination. Here are the constraints: 1) The robot can jump up to 4 tiles at any point (say current tile is 2, then the robot can reach 3, 4, 5, 6 tiles in the next jump). 2) The destination is at Nth tile. 3) Assume Robot is on 1st tile.

Skwerl23: if v==5: print(v)

Default avatar.png Saad-py: PLs hepl me

Default avatar.png Saad-py: pls help me

Skwerl23: I will

DaBestest: I don't do that stuff on here bc it makes me mad, I just do coc lol

Skwerl23: but your links don't work

Skwerl23: CoC is fun, but i enjoy the puzzles

Skwerl23: it's very rewarding to finish one

Skwerl23: i need the puzzle link

DaBestest: they didn't work for me either, but im on my school computer so i didn't know if thatwas just me

Skwerl23: not you it's personal to his account or something

DaBestest: yeah, but insanely hard to get started/finish

DaBestest: in my opinion

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Help the robot boy reach his destination. Given the number of tiles N, calculate the minimum number of jumps required for the robot to reach his destination. Here are the constraints: 1) The robot can jump up to 4 tiles at any point (say current tile is 2, then the robot can reach 3, 4, 5, 6 tiles in the next jump). 2) The destination is at Nth tile. 3) Assume Robot is on 1st tile.

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Excuse me

DaBestest: Not to brag or anything, but I just won a coc against people that normally beat me by like 10 minutes

Skwerl23: just fyi

Skwerl23: bitwolf and the second one are for sure bots

Skwerl23: they aren't the same skill each round

DaBestest: yeah, ik lol

Skwerl23: lol

Skwerl23: your answer, may be used next time around as a bot

DaBestest: yeah

Skwerl23: @saad i need the direct puzzle link

Skwerl23: i have no idea how to "help" with out seeing it

DaBestest: I have a suspicion, and I want to see if it is true: in hs, which did you all like better, algebra or geometry?

Skwerl23: Well considering, I wrote calculator games (1998-2000) and aced my tests with out paying attention

Skwerl23: senior year, i only went on test days, cause it was after lunch, and still got a 92

DaBestest: that's irresponsible lmao

Default avatar.png Saad-py: hey any good yt channel for learning algorithms, these competetive programming questions and intermediate python function

Skwerl23: it was highschool

Skwerl23: i calculated the minimum grade i needed to pass my other classes

DaBestest: did that not lower ur gpa by a ton tho?

Skwerl23: i'd say algebra was easier, and geometry was more fun to play around with.

Skwerl23: no

Skwerl23: 1 i was my teachers favorite cause i aced most the math tests,

Skwerl23: but 2, most math classes the tests were around 90% of the class grade

Skwerl23: That was my highschool at least

Skwerl23: that was 20 years ago, so forgive me if i don't remember it all that well

DaBestest: ok, yeah I really liked algebra but dislike geometry (probably bc it is more abt rules and algebra is more problem solving)

Skwerl23: iirc tests were 90% and homework was 10% of the grades

DaBestest: i was just wondering if the problem solving aspect had aything to do with the coding part yaknow

Skwerl23: i liked graphing random shit but i wasn't super good at geometry

DaBestest: oh, i hate graphing

Skwerl23: i'm a security researcher, so problem solving is my thing

DaBestest: yeah lol

DaBestest: so then did you enjoy the problem solving side of like proofs?

Skwerl23: i took an IQ test in HS - like 8 hours of time - and scored around 130. But my problem solving was like top of the charts, and my vocabulary was lowest "average" score

DaBestest: that's awful to have tests as 90% of ur final grade

Skwerl23: I would say, it came easy to me, so i didn't dislike it. Math is fun, I do it in my head a lot, even to this day. but it's not "fun" it's like breathing to me

Default avatar.png Saad-py: binary string to hexadecimal string in pyton

Skwerl23: i'd say i enjoyed word problems though

Default avatar.png Saad-py: any idea on binary string to hexadecimal string in pyton

Skwerl23: saad-py i know your young, but you can use better grammar than that

Skwerl23: but yes

eulerscheZahl: you're* :P

Default avatar.png Saad-py: IKR

Skwerl23: for i in string: print(ord(i))

Default avatar.png Saad-py: my typing sucks

Skwerl23: touche

Skwerl23: ord("s") will turn s into hex

DaBestest: i like word problems too and I really enjoy the problem solving side of math

Skwerl23: I enjoy the problem solving of scripting a ton

DaBestest: yeah, same

Skwerl23: like trying to figure out how to ask 300k computers how to give me x data as fast as possible

DaBestest: yeah

Skwerl23: i'd rather spend 24 hours writing a script that completes in 5 mins with all the answers, than 1 hour and have a 24 hour script

DaBestest: I don't really have any clue abt what i want to do in the cs field, idrk

Skwerl23: a couple months ago, I had to scrape data from AD and it took over an hour to do the job, but after lots of tweaking and learning i got it down to 10ish minutes, and it had to be reused, so simplicity helped

Skwerl23: compsci cs?

DaBestest: Like i would either go full web-dev, front end stuff, or full cs idk

DaBestest: oh wow that's cool

Skwerl23: @saad - ord turns strings into hex, and chr turns them back to str's

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Bye guys

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I gtg

DaBestest: bye

Skwerl23: bye

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I got to prepare for my exam tomorrow

Skwerl23: whats full cs

Skwerl23: i'm in cyber security

Skwerl23: so i program for scripting mostly

DaBestest: i just mean like scripting

Skwerl23: but let me tell you

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I have exams but still I am playing coc

Skwerl23: if you like problem solving, go full pentester

DaBestest: what's that?

Skwerl23: ok

Skwerl23: lets say google

eulerscheZahl: penetration testing

Skwerl23: creates a new tool

eulerscheZahl: find security holes

DaBestest: wait, tomorrow's sat (at least for me) lol

Skwerl23: well you go in and find flaws by poking at it. and they pay you for breaking their stuff

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lmao

Skwerl23: it's the ultimate problem solving

DaBestest: ah, so like white hat hacking almost-ish

Skwerl23: not almost

Skwerl23: 100%

Skwerl23: white hat hackers are pen testers

DaBestest: oh that's cool

Skwerl23: but if you REALLY like algorithm's then CS might be right for you

Skwerl23: pen testing is more about simple scripts that break things

DaBestest: yeah, i know im doing cs, i just don't know what lol

Skwerl23: like it's not complicated to form a packet

DaBestest: oh that's cool

Skwerl23: it's complicated to create youtube

DaBestest: lol

Skwerl23: whats your favorite prog language

DaBestest: python

Skwerl23: why?

DaBestest: that's practically all I know

DaBestest: i know a tad of C#

DaBestest: some js

Skwerl23: python is backend

Skwerl23: js is front end

DaBestest: and then like html css (web dev stuff)

Skwerl23: c# is a mixture but more backend

Skwerl23: yea who doesnt ... LMAO jk

eulerscheZahl: now we have node.js for server-side JS :scream:

DaBestest: oh yeah for sure

Skwerl23: js needs to die in a fire

DaBestest: that' why ik js

Skwerl23: only thing worse than js is java

DaBestest: lol, i tried but gave up on java

Skwerl23: java is c++ mini

DaBestest: what's wrongwith js, is it just outdated?

Skwerl23: and java is just awful.

Skwerl23: no

Skwerl23: js is broken af

Skwerl23: one second

DaBestest: oh lmao


eulerscheZahl: wait, there was something with JS analogy

eulerscheZahl: wrong image

DaBestest: The holy trinity lmao?


eulerscheZahl: and a funny talk about JS

DaBestest: sorry, can't read. school computer blocks reddit:rolling_eyes:

eulerscheZahl: other link, same picture:


Skwerl23: there's funny ones but i can't find it. Javascript is beyond weird and super broken

DaBestest: oh, yep that's annoying lol

Skwerl23: pentesters - the best- are good at python, but mostly powershell and cmdline and linux cmdline

DaBestest: how does cmdline help?

Skwerl23: what if i hack into your server

Skwerl23: how do i do things?

DaBestest: ah

Skwerl23: i understand a TON of languages, but i can't code in most

Default avatar.png Saad-py: that wunnrfull

DaBestest: that sucks

DaBestest: @saad-py didn't you have an exam lol

Skwerl23: OSCP was tough as hell, i had to read PHP, SQL, NOSQL, C++, Python, Java, Perl, and so on

Skwerl23: but when i sent my exploits, either they were 90% pre-built and i tweaked, or i created them in python. Then used cmdline windows/linux to maneuver and exploit further

Skwerl23: you need to udnerstand a ton of tools, like netcat, nmap, and so on

DaBestest: yeah, i can understand js, java, php, c#,c, c++ (the easy guys), but I haven't really put in the effort to be able to code it w/correctsyntax

Skwerl23: exactly

Skwerl23: there's a fine line between CS and pentesting

DaBestest: which is

Skwerl23: but pentesters are wizards at commandline

Skwerl23: and know the tools they can utilize.

Skwerl23: but we all google for help

DaBestest: I just heard this today and im kinda totally intrigued

DaBestest: oh google is the best hands down lol

Skwerl23: the best thing about a pen test team, is that there are dozens of skillsets

Skwerl23: you can be a god at door hacking.

Skwerl23: no joke, and you're invaluable

DaBestest: which is?

DaBestest: oh, duh


Default avatar.png Saad-py: are there any specific tools for hacking

Default avatar.png Saad-py: white hacking especially

Skwerl23: yes

Skwerl23: hundreds of them

Default avatar.png Saad-py: can you name some of the most important

Skwerl23: Kali and Parrot are the linux distro's most white hat hackers start with

Skwerl23: they are packed full of hacking tools

Default avatar.png Saad-py: what is Kali

Skwerl23: a linux distro

Default avatar.png Saad-py: like a special linux based cm

Default avatar.png Saad-py: d

Skwerl23: no

Skwerl23: have you heard of ubuntu

Skwerl23: or mint

Skwerl23: or redhat

DaBestest: yes mint, not ubuntu

Skwerl23: you haven't heard of ubuntu

Skwerl23: interesting

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yes I have heard of ubuntu

eulerscheZahl: i always thought ubuntu is better known

Skwerl23: exactly

eulerscheZahl: than mint

Skwerl23: kali is like ubuntu or mint

Default avatar.png Saad-py: it's a system like windows linux and mac

Skwerl23: but it's built with hacking tools

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Default avatar.png Saad-py: what do white hat hackers do

DaBestest: I've heard of mint from some of my coding friends.. i haven't done/researched anyting linux basedwhatsoever

Skwerl23: wanna crack wireless? use aircrack

Skwerl23: wanna crack passwords? use hashcat

eulerscheZahl: or good old john

Skwerl23: wanna scan ports? use nmap

Skwerl23: I actually prefer john tbh

Skwerl23: to pentest, you HAVE to know linux

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I want to do whitehat hacking or try to crack passwords. GUIDE ME M'Lord

Skwerl23: lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I am serioud

Skwerl23: there's way too much to just blurt out, but let me find a video course

Default avatar.png Saad-py: s

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Thanks M\Lord

Skwerl23: this is probably the best place to start


Skwerl23: but i need you to listen, and listen VERY closely

Skwerl23: i am not joking my next few sentences can make or break your entire life

Skwerl23: learn the laws. it boils down to that. but learn the laws

Skwerl23: don't go poking into just any computer

DaBestest: yeah

Skwerl23: hacker101 is owned by hacker1 and they are a great place to start making money via white hat hacking. And you can do it totally legally and totally free

Skwerl23: but every company you attack, requires you to follow rules

eulerscheZahl: good point. my IT security prof reserved an entire lesson to discuss the relevant paragraphs in the law book

Skwerl23: if you don't understand them, don't break them

Skwerl23: i have 100's of hours in law training/guidance for this reason

Skwerl23: but that doesn't mean you need that much.

Skwerl23: just be extra cautious. And if you are NOT sure, spend time finding out what your limitations are

DaBestest: yeah, see that's what concerns me..

Skwerl23: if you accidentally break a law, don't panic. But if it's found that you did it intentionally, you're in a deep deep hole against million/billion dollar companies

Skwerl23: I do not want to scare you

Skwerl23: trust me

DaBestest: yeah, noo ur good lol

Skwerl23: most companies are more relaxed than you can ever imagine

DaBestest: what do you do?

Skwerl23: but if they say "don't do anything that hinders our customer access"

Skwerl23: then don't do anything that might do that

Skwerl23: I am actually military

Default avatar.png Saad-py: People Who don't like jail: BRUH I don't care about hacking, I am good with my css

Skwerl23: I do threat hunting

Skwerl23: but in order to do threat hunting, you have to train on pen testing

Default avatar.png Saad-py: define

Default avatar.png Saad-py: i

Default avatar.png Saad-py: t

Skwerl23: how do you find hackers, with out understanding how hackers work

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I get it

DaBestest: lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I want to start learning white hat

Skwerl23: i have probably over 2000 hours in hacking training and expertise alone

Default avatar.png Saad-py: so first I should learn kali linux

Skwerl23: first i would learn linux

Skwerl23: linux basics

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

DaBestest: ok

Default avatar.png Saad-py: But I have a windows lapop

Default avatar.png Saad-py: laptop

Skwerl23: then learn some windows command line basics

Skwerl23: that's ok

Skwerl23: windows has linux built in

eulerscheZahl: you can use a virtual machine

Skwerl23: one sec for link

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

eulerscheZahl: WSL2?

Skwerl23: yes

Default avatar.png kalier: use the vmware

Skwerl23: for linux basics especially

Skwerl23: I would use vmware for kali though

Default avatar.png Saad-py: When I learn this whitehat, if I have a spare laptop or computer can I test my hacking on it

eulerscheZahl: or virtualbox, that one is free ;)

Default avatar.png Saad-py: IS this legal


Default avatar.png Saad-py: ??

Skwerl23: if you own the device

Skwerl23: it's yours to hack however you see fit

Skwerl23: if you hack your neighbors, it's not

eulerscheZahl: check if there are bug bounties. then you can legally tinker (as long as you don't take their website offline or such)

Skwerl23: this is how white hat hackers get great, they break their own stuff

DaBestest: y'all have offically made me make a google doc of all this info. You honestly just made my day lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: YEAH I KNOW

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lmao

Skwerl23: hackerone and other bug bounties are legal ways to hack companies with lists of rules. to follow as to waht you can and can't do

Default avatar.png kalier: As long as you don't attack others maliciously, it's legal

Skwerl23: like many companies have forums, and they will say "you must make a TEST forum post in order to test your attacks"

Skwerl23: you can't go attacking other users intentionally. etc..

Default avatar.png Saad-py: do people build companies that are not real and let people practise their hacking??

Skwerl23: is one

Skwerl23: it's a free for all

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Skwerl23: but it's web based hacking

Skwerl23: so hacking is a multifaceted world

Skwerl23: you can hack websites

Skwerl23: you can hack services

Skwerl23: like if you have heard of eternal blue

Default avatar.png Saad-py: One more question can I do this white hat hacking on a WINDOWS 7

eulerscheZahl: some are more about coding, others about crypo, ...

eulerscheZahl: lots of resources and training exercises

Skwerl23: against or with

Default avatar.png kalier: just like the penetration tester

Default avatar.png Saad-py: with

Default avatar.png Saad-py: an againt

Default avatar.png Saad-py: against

hiljusti: you can hack a chicken if you're fast enough

Skwerl23: there are tools in windows 7 i'm sure. but most of the good tools are in kali

Skwerl23: windows 7 is so broken, it's a better target than base station

Default avatar.png kalier: you can,but kali has more tools

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Thank you very much

eulerscheZahl: another link with such events:

hiljusti: start learning wherever you are though

Skwerl23: My best tip, is don't rush

Default avatar.png Saad-py: @Skwerl23

Skwerl23: once you start learning kali

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yeah then

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Are you online like every day or something

Skwerl23: is a great site to practice linux on

Skwerl23: and is more hackery than just personal terminals on your windows machine

Skwerl23: no, not really

Skwerl23: you can reach me at

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok thanks

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Thanks for guiding me

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I will be sure to learn these things

Skwerl23: one pro tip

Default avatar.png kalier: You can look for examples on the Internet and follow them

DaBestest: so like (one last question) how do you like "break into' a site, find weak spots

Skwerl23: learn every foundation you can. THEN find out what you enjoy, and master that

DaBestest: i know that is a VERY vague question

Skwerl23: hacking has literally hundreds of areas to master.

Skwerl23: there are many ways dabestest

Skwerl23: there are 3-4 main ways though

DaBestest: i'm getting super jedi master vibes lol

Skwerl23: 1. social engineering. Trick an employee to give you credentials

Default avatar.png kalier: It's not just the Internet

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Most people I know code to get better jobs but only some try to make the world a better place.

Right now I am working on Nexus the python library to make your typing less and life easier

Skwerl23: 2. find a known exploit and utilize it

Skwerl23: 3. brute force it

Skwerl23: 4. get the source code, and find your own way in

Default avatar.png kalier: Reverse engineering also needs learning

DaBestest: ok, lets say i go to, then what

DaBestest: like how do i start?

Skwerl23: Honestly

Skwerl23: that's an easy one

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Now we talking bois

Skwerl23: that site is super SUPER common

Skwerl23: so follow a walkthrough

Skwerl23: and question everything you're doing

Default avatar.png Saad-py: So users on this site can also get hacked

Skwerl23: @saad, wait a second

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lol crazy logic

Skwerl23: then once you've followed the walkthrough, try again without the walkthrough

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Yeah

Default avatar.png kalier: learn to use the tools and You know how they works

Skwerl23: until you can do it completely without the walkthrough

Skwerl23: then once you have finished hackthissite

Skwerl23: find anotherone

Skwerl23: like


Skwerl23: and do it without walkthroughs

Skwerl23: in 6 months, you'll reallly be grasping a ton of it

Default avatar.png kalier: you can also buy a book

DaBestest: omg, i am honestly so excited for tomorrow... yeah..

Skwerl23: hacking into a company is usually a 4-5 part process

Skwerl23: find the front hole

Skwerl23: use it to get into a front server, or a second hole

Skwerl23: get into a server, and move deeper in the network

Skwerl23: once inside hte network

Default avatar.png Saad-py: what is pen tester

Skwerl23: get admin rights

Skwerl23: and so on

Default avatar.png kalier: but you shuold download vmware first

Skwerl23: penetration tester- it's the legal job name bascially for white hat hacker

Default avatar.png Saad-py: so they just test something

Skwerl23: no

Skwerl23: they test for penetration

Skwerl23: can i penetrate your defenses

Skwerl23: can i hack you

Skwerl23: pentester is the short term for white hat hacker

Default avatar.png kalier: install kali on the vmware or the usb

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Skwerl23: if you have money. my recommendation is buy 4 or 5 used i3 laptops

Skwerl23: set them up with different os's

Skwerl23: and put kali on one

Skwerl23: then try hacking them. setup services and hack them

Skwerl23: get vm's from vulnhub and run them on different machines

DaBestest: @kalier I tried looking for books at the library about hacking, but none were very helpful and it would look super weird if i was just chekcing out 15 books on hacking lol

Skwerl23: hackers know a few main things. Linux command line, windows command line, tools used, and networking

Skwerl23: @dabestest

Skwerl23: that's the problem

Skwerl23: we WANT you to hack

Skwerl23: go get 500 books on it

Skwerl23: Just hack for good, not evil

Default avatar.png kalier: Kali2020 does not have root permission,you should get it on kali BIOS

Skwerl23: do not EVER worry abotu some ones opinion.

Skwerl23: Think about cops

Skwerl23: and bank robbers

Skwerl23: banks hire people to steal their money

Skwerl23: so that they can improve their security

Skwerl23: it's the same thing

DaBestest: i was kidding, i check out the 20 csbooks from the library abt every time lol.. I got a whole shelf of coding libary books rn lmoa

Skwerl23: i'll find you a video on a red team stealing legally, and why


Skwerl23: you HAVE to watch that

Skwerl23: you'll understand better,

DaBestest: k, it's on my google doc lol

Skwerl23: then watch everything defcon and blackhat you can

Skwerl23: have you ever watched the lockpicking lawyer?

DaBestest: @skwerl23 I'm pretty sure you've done ur promotions for the day lol. Thank you so much, you've really sparked an intrest. (im not leaving, just saying thankyou_

DaBestest: nope

Skwerl23: he hacks locks on youtube

Skwerl23: and that's the same job

Skwerl23: hacking locks

Skwerl23: hacking doors

Skwerl23: hacking people

Skwerl23: hacking computers

Skwerl23: hacking cameras

Skwerl23: hacking dogs

DaBestest: oh that's cool

Skwerl23: you think about it, you can hack it

Skwerl23: it's why i say, learn a ton of fundamentals

Skwerl23: find something you LOVE and learn to hack That

DaBestest: ok, yeah that makes sense

Skwerl23: don't hack 300 things, hack 10-15 and be REALLY good at it

DaBestest: people lol

Skwerl23: derren brown

Skwerl23: look him up on youtube

Skwerl23: he hacks people

Skwerl23: has a few netflix specials

DaBestest: ok, that is weird... lol social hacking, scamming?

Skwerl23: yea basically

Default avatar.png kalier: It's important to know the principle, otherwise you will only use tools.You can learn c++ hacker technology.

Skwerl23: if i call your mom, and say you're in jail, and i'm from the jail house, and i need x info

Skwerl23: she might fall for it

Skwerl23: but even worse

Skwerl23: if i tell your front door man that i'm IT and need to fix the servers

Skwerl23: they're gonna glass eye and say ok come in

DaBestest: yeah, that's in the paper all the time lol..

Skwerl23: wear a verizon shirt, and people let you in

Skwerl23: a team of hackers has specialists in each area

Skwerl23: but everyone can do any of the jobs, jsut not very good

DaBestest: Tho the fake phone ones are always the best. i get ones abt my car insurance being due,but i don't own a car.. those just make me laugh, but ik they can work

Skwerl23: so maybe the front man hacks people, but you know what he's doing, and you hack computers. and your buddy hacks doors

Skwerl23: you make it to the server room and steal billions

DaBestest: yeah

Skwerl23: wanna hear a crazy true story

DaBestest: yep

Skwerl23: so this team went in after a investing firm

Skwerl23: and he saw they had "insurance" you could buy, and that it was 5 bucks. and if you wanted you could refund it

Skwerl23: so he said "what if i refund it with out owning it"

Skwerl23: and sent some packets via python

Skwerl23: it gave his account 5 bucks

Skwerl23: so he set a script to do it as fast as possible

Skwerl23: he went to lunch

Skwerl23: came back and checked on it

Skwerl23: his account had 25 million dollars

Default avatar.png Saad-py: OMG

Skwerl23: he asked them if they noticed anything weird

DaBestest: tyat is crazy

Skwerl23: they didn't

DaBestest: oh odd...

Skwerl23: after a week of searching (he explained what he did)

Skwerl23: they found the account it came from

Skwerl23: the interest it made, in that week was more than the cost of the team

Default avatar.png Saad-py: oof

DaBestest: wow

Default avatar.png Saad-py: did he get arrested

Skwerl23: he really debated not telling them and moving to mexico

Skwerl23: no

Skwerl23: it was his job

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Skwerl23: he was PAID to find that stuff

Default avatar.png Saad-py: So he has the money

Skwerl23: no, he had to give the 25m back

Default avatar.png Saad-py: oh ok

DaBestest: that stinks lmao

Skwerl23: lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lol

Skwerl23: but he wasn't in trouble at all, because he was in the "AOR" area of responsibility, of what he was asked to do

Skwerl23: it took them a WEEK to find the flaw, when he explained it

Skwerl23: imagine if REAL hackers got it

Skwerl23: they could have stole billions

DaBestest: oh.. that's awesome that that is something you can get paid for

Skwerl23: 1 hour gave him 25m

Default avatar.png Saad-py: again what should I start with windows command line then linux and then kali linux

Skwerl23: start wtih hacker101

Skwerl23: follow their basic tutorials

Skwerl23: it's free

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Skwerl23: when you have questions branch out

Default avatar.png Saad-py: wanna do a private clash

DaBestest: sure, how

Default avatar.png Saad-py: will tell


Default avatar.png Saad-py: yes thx

Default avatar.png Saad-py: start

Default avatar.png Saad-py: wtf

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I dont understand what to do

Skwerl23: :)

Skwerl23: let me know when you have 10 minutes left

Default avatar.png Saad-py: what to do here, HINT

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ??

Skwerl23: add the left digits

Default avatar.png Saad-py: what there is a digit only

Skwerl23: add the left individual digits

DaBestest: yeah... i'm working on that lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: 1 + 2 == 9

Skwerl23: 1+2==3

DaBestest: 1+2=3

Skwerl23: 1+1 = 2

Skwerl23: 2+0+2+0

DaBestest: 3*number of digits

Default avatar.png Saad-py: I know

DaBestest: wait, nvm i said that wrong

Default avatar.png Saad-py: BRUH the number is 12 so result would be 3

Skwerl23: how does the sum of the left digits correlate to the right digit

Skwerl23: how does 3 relate to 9

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yes

Skwerl23: think about it

Skwerl23: 9/3 = ?

Skwerl23: you guys are getting close

Skwerl23: add the left individual digits

Skwerl23: the right side is a square of the left sum


Skwerl23: print(sum([int(i) for i in input()]**2)

Skwerl23: use a string

Skwerl23: instead of integer

Skwerl23: python can iterate strings

DaBestest: i tried that...i'm working on that

Skwerl23: sorry my syntax is broken

Skwerl23: print(sum([int(i) for i in input()])**2)

Skwerl23: or

DaBestest: no, ur good... i'm bad at putting it all in one line likethat...

Skwerl23: n = input()

DaBestest: yep, rn I have

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Thanks for the answer

DaBestest: n=str(input()).split()

Skwerl23: y=0

Skwerl23: for i in x:y+=x

Default avatar.png kalier: Python?

Skwerl23: print(y**2)

Skwerl23: yea it's python

Default avatar.png Saad-py: yessir

DaBestest: but my strs and ints aren't converting well lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lol

Skwerl23: for i in x: y+=int(x)

Default avatar.png Saad-py: reclash

DaBestest: OH... I just looked at ur code


Default avatar.png Saad-py: start

jacek: happy Caturday

eulerscheZahl: happy Caturday

Default avatar.png Saad-py: BYE

jrke: happy caturday

Skwerl23: took me s econd

Skwerl23: oh it was shortest?

Skwerl23: dammit

Skwerl23: lmao

DaBestest: yeah...

DaBestest: i didn't realize either

Skwerl23: i would have owned lmao

DaBestest: yep, lol

DaBestest: i just normally delete all the extra trash out of there for simplicity lol

Skwerl23: math.floor == //2

DaBestest: ?

Skwerl23: so whats 7/2

DaBestest: I was wondering why you did // instead of just /

DaBestest: 3.5..?

Skwerl23: i'm teaching you

Skwerl23: yea

DaBestest: ok

Skwerl23: 7//2 = 3

DaBestest: oh... i knew that... way back in my deep files of my brain lmao

Skwerl23: lmao

Skwerl23: i wish i knew it was shortest

Skwerl23: i would have probably gotten 95ish

DaBestest: welp that the easier way to do it

Skwerl23: if not way less

Skwerl23: dammit

DaBestest: 95ish what?


Skwerl23: characters

Skwerl23: that one is shortest guaranteed

Skwerl23: anyone else wanna join? mr. caturday?

DaBestest: oh

Default avatar.png Saad-py: backed up

Default avatar.png Saad-py: DAbestest any way I can talk yo u

DaBestest: i just sent you a priv saad

Default avatar.png Saad-py: How

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Whee

Default avatar.png Saad-py: how I am new to coc

DaBestest: lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: ok

Default avatar.png Saad-py: i got it

Skwerl23: 104 characters

Default avatar.png Saad-py: bruh I can't find a way to do this

DaBestest: I'm slowly but surely plodding along lol

DaBestest: if ur using python, this helps:

Default avatar.png Saad-py: 9 chars

DaBestest: it works when i plug it into a visualizer, but not in the coc

Default avatar.png Saad-py: but 25%

DaBestest: but only 25%

Default avatar.png Saad-py: print(35) #LMAO

Skwerl23: lol

Skwerl23: not a good coding practice

Default avatar.png Saad-py: HAHAHAH

DaBestest: that used to be me all the time tho

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Imma try this

DaBestest: now i think abt the problem all day lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py: lol

Default avatar.png Saad-py:

Skwerl23: true hacking is problem solving

cantcodehelp: i think the second testcase is wrong @DaBestest

Skwerl23: it's not

DaBestest: ?

Default avatar.png Saad-py:

Default avatar.png Saad-py: oof

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Bye\

DaBestest: oof

cantcodehelp: i've done it manually, that sum isn't 147

DaBestest: oh,funny

Skwerl23: well, my code got it

DaBestest: omg lol

cantcodehelp: not well, dunno

DaBestest: mine kept getting an EOF error and idek why lol

cantcodehelp: not really a python guy, but seems like the same idea, however mine didn't get it right

Skwerl23: that happens When you ask for too many inputs

Skwerl23: you had input() in a loop on n didn't you

Skwerl23: or two loops

DaBestest: yeah, but that's how it was from the very beginnign

Skwerl23: range(s)

Skwerl23: not n

Skwerl23: it was poorly written

DaBestest: oh, duh that's why it kept getting it wrong

DaBestest: yeah, ik

Skwerl23: maybe i did it wrong

DaBestest: wait, my code or the problem?

Skwerl23: i'm drunk

DaBestest: classy

Skwerl23: the second number was likely length of strings

DaBestest: probably my code

DaBestest: oh

Skwerl23: and i got lucky he had the same length as lines or something

DaBestest: ohh

Skwerl23: he probably made squares

Skwerl23: it was probably n-1

Skwerl23: in his logic

DaBestest: i tried doing that but i still got errors

Skwerl23: rate it poorly

Skwerl23: i used s and got 100%

DaBestest: k

Skwerl23: for shortest

Skwerl23: replace tabs with spaces

Skwerl23: one single space per tab

DaBestest: oh

DaBestest: that makes sense

DaBestest: i just try to combine stuff on to one line if i can

Skwerl23: you would have had 21 less characters

Skwerl23: yea, CoC made me a LOT better at single line

DaBestest: yeah, but it didn't really matter

Skwerl23: but not perfect

Skwerl23: don't try to beat me

Skwerl23: try to beat you

DaBestest: i'm awful at single line and code golf stuff


Skwerl23: anyone else wanna join?

Skwerl23: come on cantcodehelp

Default avatar.png Saad-py: start

Default avatar.png Saad-py: start Idt anyone else gonna join

Skwerl23: calm down mister 14

Skwerl23: life is about partnerships

Skwerl23: you didn't learn the stuff i just taught you on your own

DaBestest: :joy:

DaBestest: Guys, this has been fun, but it's late and I can't think straight abt code rn. This truly made my day though, and I can't wait to check out some of that hacking stuff.

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Same here

Skwerl23: find me on

DaBestest: Alrighty, see ya later.

DaBestest: i don't do messenger, I will talk to you through the priv codingame chats tho

Skwerl23: hold on

Skwerl23: pm me

Default avatar.png vincent-blyat: yo


Skwerl23: that's the roadmap to white hat hacking/analyst certifications

cantcodehelp: looks like at least 2 days worth of studying

Skwerl23: at least

Skwerl23: i have OSCP

Skwerl23: and that alone took 450 hours to earn

DaBestest: bye guys, talk to you agin sometime soon... I'll probably be on more often now

Skwerl23: i have 3 sans certs, 1 of them was easy, but the other 2 took probably 200-225 hours

Skwerl23: each

Skwerl23: the easy one was around 80 hours

Skwerl23: with college, i've never done the math but around 5000 hours of training.

Skwerl23: it never ends in cyber security

cantcodehelp: i don't think it ever ends in anything really

cantcodehelp: you're constantly learning

Skwerl23: in IT, if you're good

Skwerl23: yes

Skwerl23: trust me, i have had plenty of subordinates that didn't go far, because they didn't want to learn

Skwerl23: but Cyber Security requires infinite training, it's why i tell people to learn all the basics, and find what you love, then specialize, cause you'll drive yourself mad with training

cantcodehelp: everyone learns daily, to what extent is up to them :sweat_smile:

Skwerl23: lies

Skwerl23: people CAN learn daily

Skwerl23: and many do

Skwerl23: but trust me, many don't

Skwerl23: otherwise we wouldn't have people attacking the capitol

cantcodehelp: cybersecurity might be a special case tbh, i assume you have to be up to date with everything in order to be efficient

Skwerl23: the stuff they're learning is not knowledge

Skwerl23: it's not as crazy as you think

cantcodehelp: ha, you're from us? :sweat_smile:

Skwerl23: many of the up to date stuff is automated

cantcodehelp: that capitol stuff was crazy

Skwerl23: yes, and if you think those people learn daily, oh man

Default avatar.png kalier: haha

philRG: @Skwerl23 nice roadmap, but this is a no-go imho or if you have 30 years in learning.

philRG: these acronyms have been created for organizations specialized in e-learning

philRG: s/have been created/benefits to/

Default avatar.png Saad-py: Hey

Default avatar.png Saad-py: @Skewrl

jacek: finally someone at chess is trying

eulerscheZahl: and that someone isn't you it seems

Default avatar.png WoIf: anyone help with code4life

egaetan: Wolf ? maybe i can

egaetan: what's your question ?

Default avatar.png WoIf: connect what for lab

Default avatar.png WoIf: what input is id for lab

Default avatar.png WoIf: I used sampleIid but error invalid connect you are not carrying sample 2

egaetan: it is sampleId

egaetan: you should have something wrong with the ids you are carrying

Default avatar.png Angecide: I feel like the uttt leaderboard might be a bit too random

Default avatar.png Angecide: it feels like I am submitting the same bot, but now I am 29th for some reason

Default avatar.png Angecide: but before I was like 40 or something

Default avatar.png Angecide: I guess, with random moves and some people getting timeouts and such, luck is a small factor in placement as well

MSmits: Angecide it's not the random moves

MSmits: it's mostly that bots are close in strength

MSmits: the moves aren't actually random, the random rollouts are random, but the statistics gathered from this can be quite deterministic, only having 2 or 3 reasonable options each turn

MSmits: imagine if you have 30 bots close to eachother on the leaderboard that are exactly equally strong. What rank would one get?

Default avatar.png Angecide: yeah that's true, when people are placed too close to each other, even small changes can have big impact in placement

MSmits: thats what happens. Mostly it's because creativity in the search algorithm has only a small impact on the bot

MSmits: a few people stand out because they found some heuristics that help, but most people just stick with basic mcts

MSmits: and the difference is then mostly due to performance and even if you have 10-20% more sims, it will not affect winrate all that much

MSmits: from my tests, if i halved my simcount vs myself, the bot would go from 50% to 40% winrate

geppoz: python question: it is safe to call .remove in a for loop on the same looping object?

geppoz: the loop will iterate any item still?

MSmits: not sure if it is allowed, but it's not safe

MSmits: generally if you have to do that, make sure to count backwards

geppoz: i mean without counting:

geppoz: for item in array:

MSmits: that's not gonna work

MSmits: i think

jacek: :scream:

geppoz: if ...: array.remove(item)

jacek: im gonna call python police

geppoz: for item in array:

geppoz: if ...: array.remove(item)

geppoz: :D

eulerscheZahl: jacek he stole your #1 troll spot right there

geppoz: it seems to work fine

geppoz: just wondering if always safe

MSmits: thats even worse imho

MSmits: it works but you dont know why :P

VizGhar: :D

BlaiseEbuth: Like the whole python...

geppoz: :D

eulerscheZahl: JS is more of a mystery to me

MSmits: Why === that?

BlaiseEbuth: Of course, js has the palm

MSmits: you mean like a tree BlaiseEbuth?

MSmits: :palm_tree: ?

BlaiseEbuth: Meh. I have to verify words before using them in english... ^^'

jacek: has the palm - leading the way :?

BlaiseEbuth: Doesn't 'palm' used to designate a prestigious prize in english ? like "academic palm"

MSmits: sounds vaguely familiar

MSmits: js has the market, you probably meant

MSmits: or the monopoly

Astrobytes: Medal BlaiseEbuth

BlaiseEbuth: I meant the "gold medal" in the mysteries category.

geppoz: or crown

eulerscheZahl: my first thought when I read "palm": ":palm_tree: or :hand:?

eulerscheZahl: :hand:

eulerscheZahl: :(

eulerscheZahl: :hand_splayed:

MSmits: can someone just train a NN to translate BlaiseEbuth already

BlaiseEbuth: Seems to typically french...

MSmits: :P

BlaiseEbuth: *to be

geppoz: also italian

geppoz: "palma d'oro"

BlaiseEbuth: Ah !

MSmits: aha

BlaiseEbuth: You just have no culture... :3

eulerscheZahl: i would completely fail in any quiz show like "who wants to be a millionaire"

MSmits: thats an easy question euler, just say me

eulerscheZahl: oh, that show has more questions for you

MSmits: owww

eulerscheZahl: about movies, music and such culture stuff

MSmits: its weird for me to watch those

MSmits: i dont know half the answers at least

MSmits: and then comes a physics or math question and i am disgusted by how easy it is

eulerscheZahl: i would ace some of the questions where contestants really struggle

eulerscheZahl: and then at the "easy" ones that they can quickly answer, i would fail hard

MSmits: well i can probably answer the easy ones, I live with a normal person

MSmits: sometimes we socialize and i learn this stuff

geppoz: in Italy it is a shame to ignore everything, but the math/physics :(

MSmits: thats why you're here geppoz

MSmits: we love you here

geppoz: I mean for example our managers, they will be ashamed if they didnt know the year of the America's discovery

geppoz: but they naturally said "I know anything of math"

eulerscheZahl: i go with 1498

geppoz: without shame

geppoz: wrong man :D

eulerscheZahl: but close :P

eulerscheZahl: if you see Columbus as the discoverer

eulerscheZahl: October 12, 1492

geppoz: he was just someone got lost :D

eulerscheZahl: just 1 click away. but understanding how maths works is a much longer process

eulerscheZahl: and more fruitful to do something with the understanding

MSmits: very true

geppoz: oops, I meant: but they naturally said "I know nothing of math"

geppoz: without shame

geppoz: sad story

eulerscheZahl: I got the message after a short confusion

geppoz: :D

eulerscheZahl: you failed logic :P

geppoz: I failed english :(

eulerscheZahl: but it's common for major parts of our society :( perfectly acceptable to say that you hated math in school while you get odd looks for some other subjects

geppoz: that's another thing to be ashemed of, and here it is not so much

geppoz: (to fail english)

eulerscheZahl: my mom helped my niece with 2nd grade math homework, i coincidentally saw it

eulerscheZahl: and my mom was like "that's a hard one, you probably won't get it"

eulerscheZahl: how encouraging

geppoz: :D in 8 minutes I'm going to teach geometry to my niece too

eulerscheZahl: which grade? old enough to be slightly interesting?

geppoz: I mean, university geometry (vector spaces)

eulerscheZahl: ok, that's fine

eulerscheZahl: I admire teachers willing to explain the most basic things year after year

geppoz: geometry was the first exam in my electronic engineering studies, wonderful teacher

Rddevelop: is there a way to get back to a clash of code after time is over?

geppoz: Rddevelop : I never was able to

eulerscheZahl: advertising intensifies

MSmits: can you handle the traffic?

MSmits: nice: here's everything by euler:


MSmits: in case you want to do a good puzzle

eulerscheZahl: earlier the day I got this request:


MSmits: pastebin failed

Rddevelop: thanks euler very useful

eulerscheZahl: my search function is poor, scales linear with the number of words you enter

eulerscheZahl: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

eulerscheZahl: imagine someone copying the full statement and the search taking 15s to process the query

MSmits: ow

MSmits: just cap it

MSmits: who would need more than 5 words anyway

eulerscheZahl: that sounds like a hacky way

MSmits: ignore everything after 5

MSmits: yeah

eulerscheZahl: i'd rather do a proper search but i don't feel like it

geppoz: the meaning of more words is "AND" or "OR" ?

eulerscheZahl: right now i search the full database (1400 contributions) for each of the words in the query

eulerscheZahl: and then do an AND after

MSmits: well bubblesort also works fine for small numbers : )

MSmits: dont overengineer it

eulerscheZahl: and creepy stalking toad tells you that Rddevelop searched for "tower"

geppoz: (no, that was mine try)

eulerscheZahl: :D

geppoz: (dunno why it was the word that came into my mind???)

jacek: so you would fail the efficient search clash

MSmits: your towering intellect geppoz

geppoz: no it is from the puzzle of the week

eulerscheZahl: at least i finally migrated from sqlite to postgres

derjack: 1900 :tada:

trictrac: well done jacek !!

eulerscheZahl: nice is it allowed to use bots there?

jacek: dunno, i havent been banned yet

eulerscheZahl: :D

MSmits: it does say "derjack-bot"

MSmits: it's not like you're hiding it :P


jacek: i saw other _bots

eulerscheZahl: did you fight those bots?

jacek: no, i dont know how

eulerscheZahl: and how do you communicate with bot-website? manual process?

jacek: if possible

jacek: html parsing

jacek: its 'correspondence' only 24h to move, but i use only about 10 seconds per move

eulerscheZahl: ah. so nothing close to real time

jacek: no :(

eulerscheZahl: how many games can you start at once?

jacek: at most i had 5 games

jacek: registered august last year and played 36 games so far

eulerscheZahl: those are noob numbers :P


eulerscheZahl: 1560 boards solved in 5h of playtime

MSmits: werent you sokobanned from there?

eulerscheZahl: no, i stopped because i realized that i'm violating their ToS

jacek: you dont read ToS?

eulerscheZahl: stopping before entering top10 and getting noticed

eulerscheZahl: i read them while my bot was solving

eulerscheZahl: tried to use my bot on first

eulerscheZahl: but managed to send an invalid solution with an extremely short path and get #1

eulerscheZahl: so that was boring

MSmits: ahh I see

struct: hello

MSmits: hi

struct: Just need to make player ui now I think


MSmits: looks like funky checkers

1400179: I suggest to use texture instead of primitives

1400179: Your circles are extremely pixelated

struct: I guess I can do that

struct: you are right

1400179: Sorry if it's harsh criticism, you wouldn't believe the time I spent getting the chess pieces just right :p

1400179: OCD or something

MSmits: well if they are placeholders for something else, it's ok right?

struct: Well I wouldnt have changed

struct: but criticism is good

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: i thought you were going with queens

1400179: I would also make the squares more distinguished from the background

MSmits: yeah

1400179: Maybe a less depressing color palette too

struct: I also agree with that, I need to find something else for background

trictrac: Hello reCurse, in chess it seems that all the taken material is not fully displayed in the ui ?

1400179: Uh? Do you have an example?


1400179: Ohh

1400179: Got it

1400179: I only display the deltas

trictrac: ok fine

1400179: If both sides captured 2 pawns I don't see the point of displaying them

1400179: Maybe should have made that an option

jacek: what a mess. who aproved it

1400179: That's how many chess websites do it...

trictrac: I just not see that was the delta only. It's OK like that

MSmits: reCurse, upgrade troll recognition software

MSmits: include a heuristic: If(sender == jacek)

1400179: Meh

MSmits: that chess replay looks like a serious chess game now

1400179: Getting there :)

MSmits: other replays i saw looked worse than noob :P

MSmits: not easy to make a chess bot

1400179: There is so much information out there though it kind of balances out

jacek: i still need to implement castling, en passant and draw by repetition

jacek: and switch to birboards

jacek: bitboards even

MSmits: bitboards are a lot harder too, in chess

MSmits: compared to those simpler board games

1400179: Depends

MSmits: i should say, a lot more work, not necessarily hard

1400179: If you want to make them as efficient as possible sure

1400179: Just to get something basic going, not much harder than othello

MSmits: just more bitboards. All I need for othello is two uint64_t

1400179: Sure

1400179: I'm kind of stumped, my NN is kind of mediocre at evaluating positions

1400179: Could be a lot of things

jacek: just like human

MSmits: well... chess is a far more complicated game.

1400179: You know it's funny

1400179: I get the impression my NN would do better at chess than othello

struct: How do NNs handle end games on chess?

struct: without tablebases

1400179: Probably badly

MSmits: that seems really hard

1400179: But by then you don't need an eval anymore

MSmits: depends on the endgame and how close it is

MSmits: some endgames take 100 moves to finish

MSmits: or more

trictrac: the problem is to put NN coef in 100 Ko char with so much char to do the move generator in bitboard

1400179: Man I really don't understand why this keeps getting brought up

1400179: There is no issue with code size

1400179: You'll hit runtime issues way before you fill that size

MSmits: mmh in your case

MSmits: maybe you just did it better

MSmits: Robo did mention using the full amount

MSmits: could be with chess the bottleneck is runtime issues and if you had more resources, it would also have problems with codesize.

1400179: Well if you do NNUE I guess you could hit size issues

MSmits: and if you had more codesize, it would have problems training and making use of it

1400179: But really the basis is with 50 or 100 ms on a single cpu core

1400179: You really can't do much

MSmits: yeah, i keep hearing about 3k sims or something

1400179: By the time you hit code size you'll have like 10 sims or something lol

1400179: Of course you need to abuse CG as much as possible but still

MSmits: hmm so there is actually a tradeoff here

MSmits: do you try to make your NN smaller so it is faster?

MSmits: less nodes, more sims

1400179: Not a committed decision but yes

1400179: I could fit much larger NNs in my bots

1400179: But the number of sims would drop so much I don't think it's worth it

MSmits: it might be worth experimenting though

MSmits: to be sure where the optimum lies

1400179: Sure

1400179: The thing is

1400179: There are so many such hyperparameters

1400179: And you never really know whether more training would do it or not

MSmits: yeah I suppose so

1400179: So you always have way more possibilities than you have compute to experiment

1400179: So you have to choose

MSmits: so what you're saying actually. Is that I can both make a small NN and have an opening book too

1400179: Only if you're despicable

MSmits: got it

jacek: well i could use more codesize

jacek: my NN is sparse input and the speed vs size isnt issue (except maybe for some cache missing)

jacek: its like having bigger n-tuples doesn't slow you down

MSmits: having a 10 seed db instead of 9 seed db in oware did slow me down due to cache issues

MSmits: it looks up the win when a leaf hits the seed limit

1400179: I think a lot of what makes CG unique is to work with very tight constraints

MSmits: i kinda like that

jacek: and many games on CG after all. littlegolem's correspodence games isnt enough

1400179: I mean sure you have better bots with huge tablebases

1400179: But it makes me kinda meh...

1400179: Same with books

MSmits: generating the tablebases themselves is a real skill also. for oware I generate them in first second

MSmits: its not even in codesize

1400179: I'm somehow fine with that?

MSmits: I don't know, are you?

1400179: Yeah

MSmits: for bandas i generated them offline, the end game tables

MSmits: its too complicated in that case to do it fast

MSmits: fits in 27 kb so its fine

1400179: Definition of tight constraint is arbitrary

1400179: Fits mine though

1400179: If you can make it run on CG

MSmits: right

1400179: Book is different because it destroys the generalization

1400179: Though not sure why they would be different than tablebases fundamentally

MSmits: depending on how you generate it imho

MSmits: i do 2 kinds

MSmits: general books (doing one for connect 4)

MSmits: and targeted books

MSmits: the second is somewhat cheesy yes

1400179: I guess I'd have to be against hardcoded tablebase to also be against hardcoded books

struct: I rather face tablebases than books

MSmits: there's a grey area, but sometimes you can go so far into the grey its nearly black

MSmits: thats what me in old john did to othello

MSmits: me and

MSmits: honestly, general books will never be enough to beat an obviously stronger bot

MSmits: but focused books can beat any deterministic bot and even somewhat more random bots

1400179: Yeah there's no question focused books are definitely dumb

MSmits: some games on CG are so simple though, that even a focused book becomes general enough to beat even pretty random strong bots

MSmits: because the amount of good moves is just too low

1400179: Screw books, doesn't matter the kind

MSmits: we should keep encouraging randomized starts when it is at all useful

MSmits: like your chess

1400179: Not my chess tbh

1400179: Chess players faced that issue way before bots existed :p

MSmits: makes sense

MSmits: I remember kasparov complaining he didnt have the time to prepare vs deep blue

MSmits: thats basically saying he didnt have time to generate a book

MSmits: in his head

MSmits: they gave him games played by an earlier version

MSmits: which of course were different. The same way Robo changing a parameter screws up my hardcoded moves :P

1400179: Well I can't speak for him but from what I gathered, it wasn't necessarily about conventional preparation

1400179: He wanted to prepare unusual lines

MSmits: oh right, anti-engine chess

1400179: So countering deep blue book

1400179: But not against deep blue preference

1400179: Just to avoid that hardcoding advantage

MSmits: right

MSmits: well also the eval might be biased some way that can be exploited

1400179: That he wouldn't know

MSmits: thats probably hard indeed, he could find that the bot makes mistakes in certain situations though

1400179: What you do know is a GM who remembers more theory can come out stronger in the midgame

1400179: Even throwing curveball opening is a thing for the same reason

MSmits: right

1400179: Fischer basically claimed chess was dying because of all that opening theory

1400179: That's why he invented 960

MSmits: well it's not a particularly attractive part of the game imho.

jacek: and the one saying that is... ^

MSmits: me?

MSmits: well there's two different things: A) what is effective and B) what is fun

jacek: :sweat_smile:

MSmits: solar glasses guy is B

MSmits: the opening stuff, hardcoding moves etc. is very effective and makes you win, but notnecessarily fun

MSmits: i like it for some games if they are particulary interesting, but not generally

MSmits: so having to choose between winning and having fun is kind of annoying. Which is why i also prefer the random start games now

1400179: Solar glasses guy?

1400179: Oh nvm

jacek: :B

jrke: i am trying to run offline referee so how can i add cpp file as agent?

struct: brutaltester?

jrke: no

struct: you are using sdk for it?

struct: just compile the cpp file

jrke: offline referee

jrke: gameRunner.setAgent("");

jrke: what should be inside it

struct: "path\compiled.exe"

jrke: "/simulation.exe"

jrke: not working ^^

struct: thats not the entire path is it?

jrke: its saved in same folder still it needs whole path?

struct: try it

jrke: oh thanks working now

struct: Also you can run a batch of games easil


struct: scroll to testing part

jrke: thanks

jrke: its showing me timeout in turn 1 everytime

struct: does your bot use a lot of time?

jrke: no

jrke: does it needs any libgcc_s_gwc2.dll

struct: no idea, I use msvc on windows

jrke: fixed 2 lib files were needed


M3T4: anybody interested in c C++ clash

jacek: c++ shortest?

M3T4: as long as evrybody is using c++

Default avatar.png NotPiro: does any1 know how the score for CoC ranking is calculated?

Skynse: in fastest mode, its based on who can finish the fastest

Skynse: But the base ranking system is how far you complete the test cases

Default avatar.png NotPiro: i understand that the better you perform, the better the score, but is the algo for it public?


Skynse: only if you show your code

struct: its based on your opponent rank

Default avatar.png NotPiro: ok thnx guys

Default avatar.png NotPiro: btw under what rank is usually considered decent?

Skynse: In clash of code?

Default avatar.png NotPiro: yes

Skynse: I usually aim for first

Default avatar.png NotPiro: not in a match, like the global leaderboard rank

Skynse: oh

Skynse: ohhh you mean that rank

Default avatar.png NotPiro: yeah

Skynse: level or rank name? could you specify?

Default avatar.png NotPiro: ok when i go to the CoC compete page i see my ranking : 326(th)/206015

eulerscheZahl: most of those 200k aren't actively clashing anymore

eulerscheZahl: so they slowly drop

Default avatar.png NotPiro: my ranking is way too low, (mostly bcz of inactive users) and that's why i was asking how low is good

eulerscheZahl: good is relative

Skynse: my rank is 7,178

Skynse: pretty decent I'd say

Default avatar.png NotPiro: true good is relative, so what's good for you? i just wanted opinions

Skynse: Ive mostly been doing CoC so there's no huge change I think

M3T4: so i have to clash with the best if i want to climb the ranks faster

struct: yes

M3T4: does provate clashes count ?

Default avatar.png moshema: idk think so

Default avatar.png moshema: i see majority are in python

M3T4: when the questions are too easy i don't stand a chance with c++

Default avatar.png moshema: How the question difficulty level measure? is it random?

Wontonimo: Skynse: you can check out other users rank by clicking on their profile and seeing what there CoC rank is. If it looks like it has dropped recently but otherwise they have high rankings in other things, then like euler said, they just haven't been active so don't count it.

struct: if you wanna be competitive on coc you cant use c++

struct: maybe in 1% of the clashes you might be as fast

Wontonimo: M3T4: it's not just about clashing with the best to climb. Losing against someone with a way lower trueskill will set you back a lot. Generally, aim to be consistent and to do better than you did last week and you'll go up in rank.

Default avatar.png notofyourinterest: how do you become a mod?

Wontonimo: have you checked out the profiles of the mods? Pretty badass. Focus on getting there first :)

struct: most of the mods are very active users

M3T4: that's exacty what's happening to me i rise slowly to 1000th then i fall on shortest and i'm back to 2000

M3T4: guess i'll keep playing hoping i dont get shortest code

Velcoro: I was exactly in that situation half a year ago (Kotlin, Java).. so I learned Perl, now I love shortest :)

Totomns: same here, i'm used to writing in C/C++ at work, but after being defeated at code golf, i prefered js

reCurse: Asking how to be mod is a guaranteed way to never become one

MSmits: ohh

MSmits: how to be a mod?

jacek: how not to be a mod?

Astrobytes: Be you.

MSmits: trust jacek to make it shakespearean

MSmits: yay my beamsearch works. I tested it on the 5 character validator

MSmits: it had the same length though =/

VizGhar: which puzzle?

MSmits: code of the ring

DomiKo: the worst one

MSmits: I love it

Astrobytes: Well, it works.

VizGhar: oh nice I kinda hate optim... but working now on Mars3 maybe I'll find some little space in my heart for those

MSmits: I like them, i am just not as good at them as botting

VizGhar: but still congrats on every little achievement :P

MSmits: less tools in the box

VizGhar: ++

reCurse: Kinda ironic coming from one of the most hardcoders

reCurse: :P

MSmits: mmh without NN I can beat you at uttt

reCurse: Allegedly

Astrobytes: Post-truth

MSmits: you know I am unreasonably honest

reCurse: Except you had no way to determine that

MSmits: ah, well all i did was remove my book and do a cg bench vs your leaderboard version

MSmits: small edge, not that much

reCurse: My LB version was the most specific booked bot ever created

MSmits: hmm ok

MSmits: well it's not just uttt anyway, also beat every non NN on oware

MSmits: without book

reCurse: Besides where is that coming from anyway

DomiKo: Ok how leaderboard work. Why there are so many battles with 10 bots in arena?

Astrobytes: But NN-beating on Oware was the goal

MSmits: still is Astrobytes

reCurse: I was just saying you enjoy hardcoding stuff so it's kind of ironic you wouldn't enjoy optims

jacek: what arena with 10 only?

DomiKo: Chess

Astrobytes: Indeed MSmits

MSmits: reCurse it's the reverse, i dont enjoy hardcoding and i do enjoy optims :)

jacek: it was always 90 :?

MSmits: the fact that i hardcode does not mean i enjoy it. I just do it cuz it wins :P

jacek: said the biggest book(m)er ever

reCurse: Yeah seriously lol

reCurse: I call bs sorry

MSmits: well to be completely fair, i like it with yavalath

MSmits: dislike it with most other games, but it works

Astrobytes: It wasn't Smits who said he didn't enjoy optims

MSmits: no i loved numbershifting

MSmits: and some others

MSmits: also the hardcoding is different from doing it in bots imho

MSmits: you're not trying to hardcode an entire game tree with optims

MSmits: just a few solutions calculated offline

MSmits: and sure, the fact that it is offline, creates a large advantage, but a smart algo is still hugely important

MSmits: I ran samegame for 2 weeks or so and did not get a very good score at all

MSmits: cuz my algo sucked

DomiKo: 100% true

DomiKo: jacek I can't checkmate you :(

MSmits: oh I see the confusion now. I do like using meta mcts a lot. That's not the same as hardcoding though, the hardcoding is a product of it. But the meta mcts itself is interesting because you discover things about the game you're researching

reCurse: I was using it as an umbrella term yes

MSmits: ah ok, good that thats cleared up then

Astrobytes: Still hardcoding though :P

reCurse: Offline computing doesn't quite cut it because it includes training and such

reCurse: So apologies for my limited vocabulary

Astrobytes: Limited vocabulary my ass :)

reCurse: Your posterior

MSmits: no worries. Personally, I think creating a general opening book isn't any more cheesy than training a bot in any way. It's the targeting of specific opponents that is cheesy

reCurse: It is though

MSmits: how so

jacek: mhm i wonder if othello had many more strong users your books would stand any chance

MSmits: it would jacek, othello is so simple, i can encode probably the entire tree of good moves into it

MSmits: i am using 1% of codesize

MSmits: currently

reCurse: How is that not cheesy

Astrobytes: Is struc t gonna do the forced openings

Astrobytes: ?

struct: I cant do it without breaking the bots

Astrobytes: And yeah, that is 100% cheese

MSmits: it is reCurse, but i am still targeting players when i do that, it's just that with 100 players, many of them would be using the same moves

MSmits: they already do now

Astrobytes: Even with a new league struct?

reCurse: Well I'm assuming at that point it would become a generalized book

reCurse: Which is where you draw the distinction

reCurse: And where I don't see one

jacek: i like making generalizing opening book

MSmits: there is one for more complex games though

MSmits: yeah and jaceks books are far less effective because of this

MSmits: i think they are fine

struct: I could open a new league sure

jacek: :(

struct: but still I dont want to release a very strong bot

MSmits: i mean you're not doign cheesy stuff jacek

struct: due to bug

MSmits: thats good :P

jacek: only chessy stuff

MSmits: right

MSmits: struct do you mean you're afraid the boss code will be stealable

VizGhar: Hmm can somebody help me? writing simulator for mars lander. vSpeed and hSpeed are computed correctly, but X and Y coordinates not :thinking: why should possibly x += hSpeed be incorrect?

reCurse: I'm not convinced othello is fixable anyway

VizGhar: *not be correct

reCurse: Something about input being completely wrong VizGhar

reCurse: You have to ignore it

reCurse: It uses float but gives you int

VizGhar: yeez i fixed correct statement with statement with same meaning :D

struct: yes MSmits


MSmits: a reasonable fear i guess

Astrobytes: On that note (stealable boss) can it not be obfuscated?

MSmits: obfuscated still leaves it to be copy pastable

reCurse: What bug, it's still downloadable even if you don't put the game as downloadable?

struct: yes reCurse

reCurse: Uh

reCurse: Can someone steal chess boss and send it to me in PM

struct: sure

struct: one sec

jacek: oO

MSmits: well suddenly i am happy most bosses are weak :P

struct: can i put it in a private apstebin reCurse?

struct: and pm it?

reCurse: Yes

jacek: pm the hash

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Nice one

1400179: lol what a joke

1400179: ffs CG

1400179: Glad I didn't put anything sensitive there

jacek: huh

struct: This was reported

Astrobytes: oh you beat me

Astrobytes: :(

MSmits: struct be careful you dont post here how it works

struct: long ago, first by euler if I recall

struct: sure

reCurse: Yeah and it was supposedly fixed after

reCurse: smh

struct: no

Astrobytes: Yep. I think it happened during BR

struct: the fix was to delete the code manually

struct: by cg

reCurse: Oh so it got fixed manually but not at the source

reCurse: wow

Astrobytes: Yeah, something about the princess is in the other castle or some other Mario reference

struct: I was not aware of this when Ive asked for a boss code for othello

struct: otherwise i would never have asked

Astrobytes: (the text they replaced it with)

Astrobytes: I wasn't aware until euler told me relatively recently.

1400179: Whatever, 5% concerns anyway

MSmits: should this be hard to fix?

Astrobytes: Obfuscation?

struct: Well I got an official answer

struct: Not sure if I should say it though :S

jacek: hm?

struct: euler reported it first, but i also reported it

struct: when I published othello boss

BlaiseEbuth: Something like "Fix it yourself 5% guy !" ? :3

1400179: If it's official answer then

1400179: Why hide it

struct: Well it was on pm

struct: Basicly its not an easy fix, they will see if it becomes problematic

MSmits: it's problematic

struct: no

struct: because its 5%

BlaiseEbuth: ^

Astrobytes: Heh.

Astrobytes: Jeez.

struct: I dont get on how its not an easy fix but w/e

VizGhar: jeez, so newX position on mars is obviously not x+new_hsx but x+(old_hsx+new_hsx)/2

DomiKo: What is it about this 5% thing?

VizGhar: 5% are competitive guys

Astrobytes: OK, huge influx of alt accounts abusing boss visibility incoming then? (I am joking, for the record)

MSmits: DomiKo it's something that came out of the last brainstorm session

1400179: Competition is more and more defocused because it only represents 5% of what people are interested in CG for, according to their survey

DomiKo: I tried to read most of it

1400179: So it became a meme

DomiKo: nice

struct: that worked for exp thing Astrobytes

Astrobytes: Yeah. Not my style though.

MSmits: doubt westicles would get away with it a second time either :P

Astrobytes: Can't argue the apparent efficacy.

Astrobytes: I now appreciate the 'making a lot of noise' thing.

1400179: Doesn't always work

1400179: I'm done with noise

MSmits: no, dont shout "four more years" if you want it fixed quickly

MSmits: "stop the steal" might work though

Astrobytes: Agreed. Focused noise. I'm not a fan of doing it all in public tbh.

Astrobytes: Even then, what's the point these days.

struct: Well it wasnt my idea to discuss this in the chat

struct: My fault

MSmits: dont worry about it struct

Astrobytes: Ah no, I didn't mean you or this chat struct

Astrobytes: General methods of 'getting CG to listen' is what I mean.

struct: I dont feel bad about it, I just think creator should be aware of it

struct: creators*

MSmits: yeah definitely

MSmits: currently the guy creating connect4 is trying to write a strong bot

MSmits: to make 2 leagues

Astrobytes: Oh is that why he went quiet?

jacek: it doesnt need to be strong

reCurse: Hmm I think NN should be much easier on C4

MSmits: yeah he put it back up

Astrobytes: Cool.

MSmits: well you can test it now reCurse

reCurse: I'm not done with othello yet

reCurse: Almost though

jacek: *5 years later*

Astrobytes: :D

MSmits: i'm not counterbooking anyone on connect4, I promise

Astrobytes: Echoes of UTTT....

struct: just make an ai that beats random

struct: its more than enough

reCurse: No I think I've found the answers I was looking for as far as othello is concerned

jacek: heuristics?

MSmits: struct also needs to beat always picking lowest index move or some stuch

MSmits: such

Astrobytes: ^

MSmits: i would just pick 1 reasonable heuristic and then it will beat both those

MSmits: for connect4, i would go with what i put in my random rollout. Finish wins and avoid giving away wins

Astrobytes: With regards to which part reCurse? (If you want to say)

MSmits: endgames i think

reCurse: Why NN eval was weak

MSmits: his NN had problems with that

jacek: and why was that

reCurse: I already mentioned all that yesterday

reCurse: You were there I think

MSmits: because the endgame is volatile and other bots can just solve it

reCurse: Thanks

jacek: so you added endgame solver?

reCurse: Yes

jacek: meh

reCurse: Winrate went dramatically up

MSmits: did you go with ab or PNS or something more creative you dont want to give away?

Astrobytes: PNS?

MSmits: proof number search

reCurse: I didn't do PNS but the inspiration was very good

reCurse: Thanks for that

MSmits: np

Astrobytes: MSmits: I know man ffs, I was in that convo, I was asking if he used it!

reCurse: Good read, it's rare to see a paper so digestible

MSmits: lol

jacek: now read about mcts solver

Astrobytes: It is a great paper.

reCurse: I already know mcts solver

jacek: from that paper right

Astrobytes: Yeah but the paper is a Must Read,

reCurse: Which one

MSmits: the mcst solver paper is fine until you hit the pseudo code

Astrobytes: ^

reCurse: Which paper is a must read

Astrobytes: It's worth looking at just for that.

Astrobytes: The solver one.

reCurse: mcts? PNS?

jacek: a mod wouldnt troll you

MSmits: mcts i guess


MSmits: it was a good explanation

Astrobytes: MCTS solver, sorry.

reCurse: I thought the mcts solver paper to be quite poor tbh

Astrobytes: Yes! That's why it's a Must Read.

MSmits: well i thought the pseudocode was bad, but the explanation was easy to understand

reCurse: Wait what

jacek: maybe its just dutch people cant write good paper

Astrobytes: I couldn't believe it when I got to the pseudocode and questioned everything I'd thought I'd understood.

MSmits: nah it's just these guys doing tons of research on these algorithms

reCurse: lol

reCurse: So those two papers came from the same guy

reCurse: Interesting

MSmits: i think their budget allocation accidentally has one or two zeroes added

MSmits: compared to other unis

Astrobytes: Winands was it?

reCurse: As much as I thought mcts solver to be meh the PNS one was pretty good

MSmits: yeah its always winands

Astrobytes: hehe

therealbeef: Winands sounds like it could be Belgian too

Astrobytes: You should meet up with him MSmits

Astrobytes: Teach him some stuff

MSmits: well he should come here and learn to use his stuff competitively

Astrobytes: Yeah reCurse, the PNS paper is good for sure

reCurse: I really don't think that's what they care about

MSmits: well their loss

MSmits: they just dont know what they're missing

Astrobytes: Since Rémi is here, maybe they'd listen...

MSmits: I think they'd be better at their job if they tested their stuff here. Think about how quickly you learned to do stuff here in your free time

MSmits: competition is a great motivator

reCurse: Remi cares about it, just at a much higher level than CG

Astrobytes: True.

reCurse: We're the schoolyard of AI

reCurse: Fighting for king of the sandbox

reCurse: (or queen, my bad)

Astrobytes: Doesn't invalidate CG as a useful platform for them though.

jacek: where else could i test my bots?

MSmits: on littlegolem :P

Astrobytes: I mean, CG could - you know - perhaps communicate with them and strike a deal... (nooooot)

reCurse: Did you just assume their business model

Astrobytes: Sorry, my bitterness is shining through.

MSmits: some sciency stuff going on can beef up your reputation

Astrobytes: Eh. Where's the fun in that.

MSmits: you did not just say science isnt fun did you

therealbeef: Half the work of a scientific article is finding the right problem for the theory

jacek: science is fun except the physics

Astrobytes: Read between the lines MSmits. For a scientist you do miss a lot :D

MSmits: lol therealbeef

reCurse: :thinking:

MSmits: Astrobytes i cant, it was only 1 line

Astrobytes: You pedantic little... :D

MSmits: I try

MSmits: therealbeef that sounds like mathematical theory

Astrobytes: I'm also guilty of that particular crime rather often.

MSmits: or actually no, mathematicians dont even care about practical applications :P

Astrobytes: Just the mathematics is practical enough

Astrobytes: Mathematics -> MOAR MATHEMATICS

Astrobytes: Like theoretical physicists

MSmits: I dont mind highly abstract math stuff, but there has to be some kind of carrot at the end of the stick, even if the stick is very long

Astrobytes: They're physicists in theory

therealbeef: all the major algorithms that dominate on many problems have been found by now. now it's all about a variant on a well-known algorithm and finding the perfect problem on which it outperforms the generic algo by 1%


Astrobytes: lol

reCurse: I first read genetic algo and was on my way to get triggered, mission aborted

Astrobytes: therealbeef: but on CG at least (I think it was reCurse who said it earlier? I was afk a lot earlier) the time constraint is the real hurdle.

reCurse: Uh? I said that for NNs btw

Astrobytes: It's true (generally) on CG imo

Astrobytes: Problem-dependent ofc

Astrobytes: I mean your offline alphabeta is gonna play much better chess with > 50-100ms time limit right. So it pushes you to optimise, think outside the box etc

Astrobytes: (Optims not included, unless you only do online solvers)

therealbeef: CG benefits algos where you can tune the time/quality balance

therealbeef: alphabeta is quite bad here

reCurse: ??

jacek: !!

Astrobytes: Heh heh heh

Astrobytes: You're doing it wrong.

MSmits: reCurse I completely agree on GA. I admit it works, but it repulses me. Much prefer SA

MSmits: might be the biology themed description

MSmits: not sure

**Astrobytes is triggered instantly

MSmits: hehehe

MSmits: I am supposed to prefer SA, it's physics themed

Astrobytes: Cause materials/physical chem is SO much better eh! Tell that to a NN :P

MSmits: mmh good point

Astrobytes: I jest. I think they both have valid uses.

MSmits: yeah, GA just doesnt seem appealing to me

struct: minimax works very well in many games

MSmits: yet i prefer mcts as well

Astrobytes: SA can be more of a black art than GA sometimes. GA is good for tuning parameters imo

DomiKo: GA here is so simple :(

Astrobytes: As opposed to being your main search algo. Again, situation dependent.

DomiKo: nobody is talking about fancy stuff about GA :(

MSmits: many people say GA is simple, but I think that's just because they learned it and used it a lot

MSmits: SA is much simpler

1400179: GA pretends to be so much smarter than it is

therealbeef: with minimax/ab you tend to waste so many ms if you just fail to complete an extra ply within the time limit

jacek: thats when jacekmax comes int *.*

jacek: in even

MSmits: mcts vs minimax is very domain dependent

MSmits: also calculation time dependent

MSmits: low calc time -> minimax wins, there's a treshold somewhere

MSmits: i think if you play uttt with 1ms then mcts would suck

Astrobytes: 'GA' covers a lot of algorithms tbh, not just a straightup rolling horizon thingy

Astrobytes: They can get quite sophisticated, not sure I see an application on CG for them though.

DomiKo: But GA here is equal to RHEA

DomiKo: that's a problem

MSmits: whats RHEA again?

Astrobytes: Yeah, that's what I'm saying DomiKo

MSmits: and why is there a "GA here", what about GA is CG specific?

Astrobytes: Rolling Horizon Evolutionary Algorithm

DomiKo: if someone is talking about GA

DomiKo: he is actually talking about RHEA

MSmits: ahh ok so just a misnomer

Astrobytes: On here yes.

MSmits: is either of those two more complicated

MSmits: ?

MSmits: do we leave out features here?

DomiKo: yes GA is more than one algorithm

Astrobytes: WAy more.

DomiKo: its like fammily of algorithms

MSmits: so is RHEA not biology themed then?

Astrobytes: And a whole field of research too.

DomiKo: yap it isn't

MSmits: i should give our "GA" another look at

Astrobytes: Loosely biology-themed but not overly.

MSmits: mmh are they rolling animals?

Astrobytes: No.

MSmits: mm ok

DomiKo: more formaly GA is about {0, 1} only

DomiKo: if I'm not mistaken

MSmits: thats just binary

DomiKo: yap

MSmits: you just described all of computing

DomiKo: I mean

DomiKo: our function is {0, 1}^D

MSmits: ow ok

DomiKo: so only binnary strings

DomiKo: yes

MSmits: ah i see, you encode your solution in a binary string and your population is those strings

DomiKo: then we got like ES (evolution strategies) which are R^D

DomiKo: there is a lottttt

DomiKo: but here(CG)

Astrobytes: It's a massive area of research

MSmits: yeah when i was doing that AI course, the professor was working on that also

DomiKo: most of problems have Integer Space of something like that

DomiKo: and in most games more sims = better score :(

MSmits: is that really a fundamental difference, it being integer as opposed to any number?

Astrobytes: aCat can talk about evolutionary algos if you're interested

wjan: Question:

Astrobytes: wjan: Pastebin isn't working right now

MSmits: it's question though

MSmits: perhaps it expired?

wjan: I'm doing Chuck Norris - Code Golf but I'm stuck on the third test where the input() is "%". when I do ord(%) i get 37, which in binary is 100101 which in this chuck norris code should be 0 0 00 00 0 0 00 0 0 0. However, this is not the right solution. My code worked for the first two tests (where Input() is "C" and "CC"). What am I doing wrong?

MSmits: the padding

MSmits: i think

MSmits: needs to be 8 bit

Astrobytes: Is this the padding thing? 7 bits

MSmits: or 7

MSmits: not sure

Astrobytes: something like that

MSmits: so add a zero on the left

MSmits: or maybe two

Astrobytes: (pad until required length :P )

VizGhar: 7 is right

MSmits: so 100101 becomes 0100101 or 00100101 either of those tow

MSmits: 0100101 then

DomiKo: the biggest fundamental difference is search space

Astrobytes: S**te puzzle lol

wjan: so every letter needs 8 bit. ok i get it.

MSmits: it's kind of funny, but silly

DomiKo: it's so hard to make good eval

MSmits: the spaces might as well be ones

DomiKo: that isn't "random"

jacek: where

Astrobytes: You mean generally or on CG DomiKo?

MSmits: wjan it's 7 bits i think

MSmits: but try both

DomiKo: on CG

MSmits: depends a lot on the game/optim doesnt it DomiKo?

DomiKo: yes

DomiKo: but in genneral in games you can make like 10 moves and then one BAD move and that's it

DomiKo: so good solutions aren't "close"

MSmits: you're talking about the boardgames

MSmits: or not?

DomiKo: Mars Lander too

MSmits: hmm

MSmits: numbershifting is like that as well

MSmits: if you make a mistake it becomes unsolvable

MSmits: how to score an unsolvable board?

MSmits: it's kind of all or nothing

Astrobytes: I think he's referring more to what makes a good evolvable solution.

MSmits: yeah, but thats what i mean also

MSmits: how do you evolve a ns solution

MSmits: either it works or it doesnt

DomiKo: that's true too

MSmits: i'm sure it is possible, but i find it hard to imagine is all

Astrobytes: I don't think I would use an evolutionary algo on NS tbh

DomiKo: you can't really measure how far from solution it is

MSmits: Astrobytes but people use SA and SA is also kind of evolving. You're making changes and scoring them

MSmits: it's just a 1 population algo

Astrobytes: Yeah, it's not quite the same thing.

MSmits: it's not, but it has some similar problems in common

DomiKo: and the best thing CROSSOVER

MSmits: like how, do you make small changes that do not completely kill any chance of finding a solution

DomiKo: it's like crossover make only sense when two good solution make good solution

DomiKo: butt it's most cases it don't

Astrobytes: Yes. Crossing two excellent solutions often results in F**K ALL :D

DomiKo: I think that's why most people don't like RHEA

DomiKo: and will go with SA

DomiKo: beacuse it's "the same" but without crossover

MSmits: i think more use RHEA here

MSmits: it's more 5% that use SA

MSmits: the

MSmits: which is weird to me, because it seems simpler. GA (RHEA) has just been hyped too much

jacek: use PSO [solved]

Astrobytes: You did that and found no difference.

jacek: me?

MSmits: whats PSO again?

MSmits: I googled it

Astrobytes: Particle Swarm Optimisation

MSmits: no luck

MSmits: oh

DomiKo: MSmits always add "algorithm" at the end

MSmits: this has nothing to do with ants fungus or slime does it?

MSmits: good point DomiKo

Astrobytes: Yes jacek, you said you tried it on something on here a while ago

jacek: ahh right, i think its like GA but more local

jacek: so like SA

MSmits: it also has Particle in the name

MSmits: so might be physics themed?

jacek: :unamused:

Astrobytes: Swarms MSmits, swarms.

MSmits: of particles

MSmits: like in the LHC

jacek: today i found nevergrad framework and i think im gonna use it to tune some parameter

DomiKo: :joy:

Astrobytes: "Bite my shiny metal ass"

MSmits: oh thats a bender thing

MSmits: i will try to do bender after cotr i think

jacek: bender gender?

MSmits: fender bender?

Astrobytes: It's been on my list for some time MSmits. That and Space Maze.

MSmits: but space maze is a puzzle?

MSmits: right?

Astrobytes: Yeah.

MSmits: I guess puzzles are fun too. I do too few of them

Astrobytes: But it's kinda optim-y

MSmits: yeah because otherwise you time out

Astrobytes: I prefer not-puzzles but it's a good one.

MSmits: i need to fix my beamsearch. Tried it on a bigger spell in cotr, it does 24 characters correctly, then screws up the last 9

MSmits: weird bug

Astrobytes: off by one or something

MSmits: yeah it might be something like that

MSmits: but it already goes back and forth a bunch of time and goes over the edge too, no problems till 24

MSmits: funny that the test case is the exact inverse of the validator and my solution is also the exact inverse. So whatever the bug is, it is quite symmetric

Astrobytes: That's encouraging.

struct: Should I make the pieces move always the same speed

MSmits: I suppose so

MSmits: good question struct

struct: for example if it moves 1 squre it will move slowly, if it moves 10 it moves fast

MSmits: choice between same speed or same move time

MSmits: same move time gets annoying for small jumps

MSmits: it would be moving really slowly

Astrobytes: Yeah, some scaling would work for sure.

struct: ok so same time should be better

MSmits: no i meant that migth not be better

jacek: isnt it the same?

struct: oh right

MSmits: small jumps would mean it moves really slow with same time

struct: currently its same time

struct: ok so based on distance

jacek: the same speed per square

struct: 1 square should take N milliseconds

MSmits: distance per square

MSmits: square per speed?

MSmits: my physics is malfunctioning

MSmits: help!

Astrobytes: Scale the move speed with the distance

MSmits: thats it

MSmits: sometimes you just need a biologer for the simple physics

struct: should be simple enough

Astrobytes: MSmits: :rofl:

MSmits: if you need me to point out a tiger, let me know Astrobytes

**Astrobytes goes back to supersymmetry

Astrobytes: hahaha

jacek: oh Caturday is over

MSmits: not for Astrobytes

Astrobytes: ^

MSmits: it's really weird you and I are in the same timezone jacek

MSmits: we should be 2 hrs apart

jacek: hm?

struct: Is UK time always the same as portugal?

MSmits: the distance

MSmits: it's greater than 1/24 of the diameter of the Earth

MSmits: circumference

MSmits: srty

struct: It seems it is

Astrobytes: Yeah struct, UK, Portugal and Spain

MSmits: well that makes sense

struct: Not spain

struct: Spain is +1 hour

MSmits: like France

Astrobytes: Yeah my bad

MSmits: we had this discussion about daylight savings, which is called "summer time"and "winter time" here

MSmits: for some reason people thought it would always be summer if we stopped switch

MSmits: switching

MSmits: that was literally the argument

MSmits: "i like the summer, lets do that"

struct: its gonna stop switching here

struct: Or is it worldwide?

Astrobytes: wtf. Here in Scotland we have the issue that it will be dark.

Astrobytes: At the wrong time.

MSmits: good you added that last bit

MSmits: otherwise i would suggest the north pole

MSmits: and south pole, depending on the season :)

Astrobytes: I'm not sure what the Brexiters signed up to in the agreement tbh

Astrobytes: My ex worked in Antarctica for a season. I have a penguin feather :P

MSmits: if they changed it here, it would be dark till 10 am or something

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: Yeah, 9am or thereabouts here.

MSmits: iI read this as penguin father

MSmits: at first

MSmits: i was like... whoa confession

Astrobytes: (Adélie penguin)

Astrobytes: And lmao

Astrobytes: "Penguin father" is amazing.

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: i love penguins

MSmits: I remember when i was young thats kind of the only animal i was interested in seeing in the zoo

MSmits: they had these little ones

MSmits: i dunno what it is about them, they're just cool

Astrobytes: They are amazing. Incredible birds.

MSmits: yeah

struct: They are birds?

MSmits: I dont even think of them as birds

MSmits: but i suppose so

Astrobytes: Yes they are.

Astrobytes: Flightless and water-loveing

Astrobytes: *loving

Astrobytes: well, aquatic

Default avatar.png Angecide: it feels like I have reached my limit with traditional mcts solver on uttt and I wanna maybe try look into training an evaluation NN to replace my simulator and I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good paper training an eval nn?

Astrobytes: I like Emperors and Rockhoppers

MSmits: Angecide i dont think uttt is the best place to start learning that

Astrobytes: ^

Default avatar.png Angecide: hmm

MSmits: try oware instead

MSmits: many have had succes

MSmits: uttt is notoriously hard

Default avatar.png Angecide: I see, do u know a good paper on top of your head that you would recommend?

MSmits: not a paper no

MSmits: but if you find a good resource, please share with me

MSmits: there's tons of videos, little demos and assignments to find

Default avatar.png Angecide: I can try, I will start researching tomorrow, see if I can figure something out

Default avatar.png Angecide: or I guess it is today

MSmits: you'll have to piece stuff together from various sources

Default avatar.png Angecide: ye I can imagine

MSmits: people often start with basic tic tac toe, or something simpler

MSmits: like a XOR operation

Default avatar.png Angecide: ye I know the gist of ML

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: i also think there are many valid ways to do it on CG

MSmits: and the best way probably hasnt been found

Default avatar.png Angecide: I was thinking maybe training a model to emulate mcts, I believe that is what muzero is about if I understood it correctly

MSmits: you can use tensorflow too

Astrobytes: Talk to re Curse, robo, inory y (where is he anyway?), jacek... there are a lot of people who can give you some guidance on specific issues

MSmits: mmh it doesnt emulate mcts i think?

MSmits: it uses a similar treesearch

Astrobytes: For CG I think it's a0 you want to be investigating based on my limited knowledge

MSmits: and then uses a policy for choosing an action and a value from a state evaluation

Default avatar.png Angecide: I think more in the sense of predicting the best move like what an mcts would predict to be the best move, maybe the algo I was thinking about wasn't muzero

MSmits: yes muzero is basically a0 except it figures out the game rules along with the best way to play the game

MSmits: if i remember correctly

MSmits: so it doesnt know the sim at all

Astrobytes: Yeah something along those lines MSmits (re policy/value)

MSmits: it just makes illegal moves and learns the rules from that

Astrobytes: WAs that conversation from yesterday or day before? (Pretend it's Friday)

struct: hmm, high distance seems slow, short distance seems fast

MSmits: not sure Astrobytes

MSmits: struct use a power

MSmits: make it nonlinear

Astrobytes: ^^^^^^

struct: So the reverse of power right?

MSmits: between 0 and 1

MSmits: i am guessing

struct: oh ok

MSmits: so, like a squareroot

MSmits: at 0,5

struct: The reverse :D

MSmits: but try what works best

MSmits: it's still a power, but if it helps to think of it as a reverse, sure :p

Astrobytes: Angecide: mu/alpha zero conversation here:

Default avatar.png Angecide: btw, assuming I have trained a NN, how does people even port the weights back to CG? Is there some clever serialization hacks for it?

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: just pack it as small as possible and unpack in the first 1s

MSmits: no need to go too far with that though

Default avatar.png Angecide: I see, perhaps it isn't too difficult once I get there

MSmits: baby steps

Astrobytes: Plenty people here that will help you with specific questions.

struct: Square root seems to look good

MSmits: nice

struct: thanks

MSmits: np

Astrobytes: Have you fixed the colour-scheme yet struct?

Default avatar.png Angecide: yea I really like this community of bot competition, I get that u can't reveal all the secrets becasue of competetive edge and such, but just learning small bits and improving is very cool

VizGhar: I plan to start with NNs later this year. I'll need you guys :) any recommendations for neither dumb nor wise guy where to start?

MSmits: Angecide depending on who you ask, some people reveal too much :P

VizGhar: MIT lectures seems nice

MSmits: I usually keep only 1 or 2 things back at most


struct: its not final

struct: I dont know what to do for colors

MSmits: much better than it was

Astrobytes: That's way better struct

MSmits: I always doubt the colors too

struct: I need to change the yellow highlight to something else

struct: The red is where wall will be placed

struct: the current yellow is from and to

struct: where move was

MSmits: a different shade of yellow?

Astrobytes: A tint or something on the aquares?

Astrobytes: *squares

Astrobytes: Or a border?

struct: I currently have something over the square

struct: Might not be visible for colorblind people

Astrobytes: I can see the highlighted squares

Astrobytes: I mean rather than a colour change as such, change the hue or tint or whatever on the colour of the appropriate squares.

Astrobytes: Transparency even

Salted: Has anyone ever played with aws deep racer?

Astrobytes: No. He cheated and I ran away.

Astrobytes: Seriously though, I have never heard of that.

struct: Cant change the tint of rectangles :(

struct: only sprites

Astrobytes: Consult re Curse

struct: I can change the color though, currently i just put something over it

struct: Like a yellow rectangle

Salted: Ha! I just learned its a 1/18th scale rc car that amazon hosts for machine learning racing.

Astrobytes: You cannot even change the transparency?

struct: I can

struct: I can put a yellow over and change the transparency

Astrobytes: That may work then struct.

Astrobytes: Fairly high transparency

struct: Of the highlight?

struct: or the square itself

Astrobytes: The highlight. You may need to adjust depending on square colour

Astrobytes: (I'm just theorising here, I'm not acquainted enough with the SDK yet)

struct: So I should make it more transparent?

Astrobytes: Yes, for a start at least.

Astrobytes: Salted: I'd never even seen this before

Astrobytes: Looks interesting

Salted: I learned about it in an aws class.

struct: I guess I also will need to change color too, since the yellow will hide well

Astrobytes: Yes struct, that's why I said adjust based on square colour

Astrobytes: :D

Astrobytes: Sorry, I should have been a little more concise.

Astrobytes: Salted: Learning about AWS stuff in an AWS class? Who'd have thunk it!

Astrobytes: MSmits:

Salted: Astrobytes: Ha! It came right after learning about aws snowmobile. The 100 PB truck they send out for massive data stuff. You can drive your own tiny version using aws deeprace.

Astrobytes: Salted: That's pretty cool actually

Hedayat_Farahi: hello


Hedayat_Farahi: join the clash

Astrobytes: No.

MSmits: penguins!

MSmits: :penguin:

Astrobytes: Adélie penguins

Astrobytes: If I remember I'll take a picture of my FEATHER

Astrobytes: (caps in case you misread it :P )

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: And you get a cool personalised stamp for letters you send from Antarctica too

MSmits: oh, nice

MSmits: do they have e-mail servers on antarctica, i want a personalized stamp for my mails

MSmits: mmh i can just put a penguin in them i suppose

MSmits: at work, we without warning got the ability to use profile pics in our mails

MSmits: so most used a real pic

MSmits: and then one physics colleague used buzz lightyear

MSmits: noone said anything about it

MSmits: so i went with woody

MSmits: but i forgot I often have meetings with the boss :P

MSmits: and it showed on my ms teams thingy

MSmits: so now he probably thinks i have a toy story obsession

Astrobytes: hahahha

Astrobytes: They do have a limited internet connection in Antarctica yeah

Astrobytes: But it's reserved for family/urgent communication. Everything else is snail mail.

MSmits: hmm what about that cat that refuses to be petted on YT?

MSmits: that's urgent

MSmits: mmh I will remember to download all my Norm on Conan episodes next time i go to Antarctica

Astrobytes: Well, at least in the French station they have a lot of parties. Much eating and much drinking.

MSmits: yeah that's a French thing

Astrobytes: There were Italians there too, which is an interesting dynamic

Astrobytes: (no deaths I may add)

MSmits: i imagine

MSmits: that's a plus

Olusola: hello world

Astrobytes: Well, no documented deaths.

MSmits: hello Olusola

MSmits: :hugging:

Olusola: Hii

Olusola: You're clashin?

MSmits: nope

MSmits: crashin' soon though

Olusola: clash of code, who's in?

Astrobytes: The participants.

Olusola: yeah:stuck_out_tongue:


Hedayat_Farahi: join the clash

Astrobytes: No.

Hedayat_Farahi: Olusola wassup

Olusola: sure in

Hedayat_Farahi: how are u doing brother

Astrobytes: Ahhh, such beautiful synergy.

painor: is site a bit slow ?

MSmits: might be Bilbo's fault, i just submitted

MSmits: yay it worked, i did BS on the short spell and shaved off 22 characters compared to my manual solution

Olusola: how come,

MSmits: sorry, i was talking about code of the rings optim

Project-Magenta: This site is insane

Project-Magenta: I have so much lag

therealbeef: should be better in 15 minutes. it's slow every night between 1 and 1:30-ish CET

Project-Magenta: Ok

Olusola: let's clash again

Olusola: hello

Olusola: anyone?

Default avatar.png moshema: yes

Default avatar.png moshema: let's clash

Project-Magenta: HITMAN 3 is very good

Skynse: man I hate mosquitos

Skynse: Came back just to say that I got it now I can go back to sleep lmao

Skynse: Was wondering why the place was so quiet then I saw it on my monitor

Default avatar.png kalier: How can I prove I am not a bot?

jacek: ask AutomatonNN

AutomatonNN: why do you think it works the same thing as well?

Skwerl23: I know kalier isn't a bot

Default avatar.png kalier: haha,yes