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YCS-Venom: how do we know that we are playing with a bot or not?

Severed: arent they all bots? Isnt that what we are doing?

Uljahn: if you're not a bot why do you get captcha?

Perlorodka: @kavandoctor I guess I know why you are asking.. And I simply had to store the demonstration of your amazing skills for future generations. Creating program to convert roman numbers to decimal in 38 seconds, just wow! Too bad you didn't share it afterwards..


GoogleJeff: lol, clearly they are galaxy-brain and type at 1000 wpm

GoogleJeff: it's python so they probably just did "import roman_numeral_clash_of_code_solver"

Velcoro: I'm amazed that some people are actually willing to spend time to exploit an educational site in order to achieve higher rank in some virtual ladder, learning nothing in the process

darkhorse64: What are you referring too ?

Westicles: gotta be clashes

Westicles: or golf

Westicles: Is that why Allis quit?

jacek: who

Westicles: Ah, he's probably referring to a new guy with 58 clashes that is about to pass him.

Westicles: Someone up to shenanigans no doubt

Default avatar.png the-mysterious: hello

Default avatar.png the-mysterious:


sleepy-coder-101: please join this

Velcoro: I was referring to kavandoctor

Default avatar.png Terralis: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Perlorodka: Allis was quite happy with the state of CoC and he was very active, participating in most private clashes.. but then he suddenly disappeared

Westicles: Ah. Well, I mean he is playing against guys who have done every clash at least 20 times. I guess fairplay is a little nebulous all around

Velcoro: :)

darkhorse64: Yeah, when it comes to a point where you copy/paste from your database, it's time to move to something else. Bot programming for instance ?

Velcoro: exactly

Default avatar.png Sk0v: How do u play arena?

Default avatar.png Sk0v: in coders strike back

KiwiTae: Sk0v read the description and hints

Default avatar.png Sk0v: i won the game and want to play against other players

KiwiTae: press submit

Uljahn: click Test in Arena

Default avatar.png Sk0v: i done that many times ntohing happening

KiwiTae: your not in the ladder u need to submit your code

Uljahn: are there any battles in the Last battles tab on the left panel?

Default avatar.png Sk0v: no there isnt

Westicles: maybe a bug, jrke reported same thing on discord

Bitse: I think all battle arenas are currently down. Battles aren't updating for Tron Battle either.

Uljahn: looks like servers've stalled

jrke: yeah battles bug i have reported

Default avatar.png Sk0v: its scam i cant move further i need my xp

Uljahn: understandable, have a great day

[CG]Thibaud: thanks jrke we're looking into it

VizGhar: i though it was only sopra steria challenge :)

Default avatar.png ivnbcr: hi all

Westicles: VizGhar imposteur! pas français!

aetrnm: Hey, guys! What is the shortest programming language available here and how do I actually win "Shortest" game mode?

Default avatar.png alpha.: you can win most of them using python i think.

Default avatar.png alpha.: and ruby is amazing

VizGhar: Westicles :D

Default avatar.png NK2910: Hackerrank ?

jrke: oh new update on CG


Westicles: Still when you click on friends, it doesn't take you to your friends

Satzmann666: Heyo, did anyone else have issues with the ANEO puzzle? Im pretty damn sure my code is correct but tests 7 and 8 fail

darkhorse64: Don't take it personally but for sure, your code is wrong.

jrke: yes there is one minute thing you have to fix to get that perfect in aneo

Passifi: the one with the traffic lights I had the same issue in my case it was something about floating point precision a value was like 59.99999999 or something like that and should have been 60 :)

Passifi: it drove me mad debugging it btw

jrke: yeah minute thing i said

darkhorse64: I do not see any update. Is it available from the home page ?

jrke: "ctrl+shift+r" try it darkhorse64

darkhorse64: :thumbsup:

Satzmann666: thx guys using Decimal did the trick

G-Rom: A/B test for the menu, 50% chance to have it

Kitkat260: morning

Kitkat260: any tips for braces

Westicles: Avoid fistfights?

Kitkat260: thx

Kitkat260: ?


NASIRUDDIN: i am nasir

Kitkat260: nice to meet you i'm kitkat

jacek: sti changed?

yohyoh: hey

Kitkat260: hi

Kitkat260: how is everyone today

Default avatar.png ichwarsnix: hello, other people

Westicles: don't you mean hell is?

BlaiseEbuth: ^^

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: lmao

eulerscheZahl: so, who got the new header already?

BlaiseEbuth: I

eulerscheZahl: i may have. the livestreams have a yellow circle now. rest is the same

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: I do see a different icon for livestreams

BlaiseEbuth: This is visible on both old and new.

eulerscheZahl: what else changed?

BlaiseEbuth: But on the new the categories change

eulerscheZahl: aah, got it in an incognito tab

eulerscheZahl: activites => practice, compete, learn

eulerscheZahl: and community

eulerscheZahl: and discord link in its own community subsection

Astrobytes: Yeah, got it as well.

eulerscheZahl: is it removed from the chat then?

Astrobytes: No, seems to still be there

eulerscheZahl: it's costing valuable screen space :(

Astrobytes: I agree. Should probably mention it.

eulerscheZahl: your job, you are A

eulerscheZahl: i'm B

Westicles: there are probably ads everywhere, we all just block them

eulerscheZahl: i tried to block the livestream with my adblocker

Joseph_Mother: JOE LIKE JOE MAMA

eulerscheZahl: every time a stream ends or a new one starts, it's back

RoboStac: oh, apparently I blocked discord message with ad blocker, was about to say I couldn't see it anymore

eulerscheZahl: my troll sensor tingles

Joseph_Mother: senses*

RoboStac: but it's still there on my other pc

Astrobytes: Joseph_Mother: be nice or be kicked.

eulerscheZahl: i guess i should block the discord too :P

eulerscheZahl: perfect, it's gone

BlaiseEbuth: The new header seems not to be displayed in the same way that the old one... It appears on my chat client...

Default avatar.png Wang-sirs: :grinning:

Joseph_Mother: coc

Joseph_Mother: why coc

Joseph_Mother: also why are you telling me to be nice i just helped him correct his words

Joseph_Mother: thats a very nice thing to do

Joseph_Mother: i dont appreciate you profiling me

BlaiseEbuth: I don't appreciate you trolling

Default avatar.png Wang-sirs: may i ask ,Can The code of the Rings solved with GA optimization algorithm?

Uljahn: what if someone answers negatively but it's actually possible? :thinking:

BlaiseEbuth: What if someone answers positively but it's actuallly impossible ? :thinking:

Uljahn: exactly. why not just try and see for yourself?

Westicles: All I know is Msmits got to 54 in 3 hours playing it manually

Uljahn: MSmits is kinda GA under the hood i guess

BlaiseEbuth: I'd like to say it's possible but with a very good evaluation function, and a non-naive generation of individuals, perhaps helped by some heuristics, and probably with more CPU/Time that allowed on the site...

Kitkat260: sup

Default avatar.png Wang-sirs: great thanks

Kitkat260: thats good

MSmits: I'm more SA under the hood Uljahn, but i did do it manually. I was going to do a beamsearch for it this weekend

MSmits: hope i can finish something that works

jacek: i have the new navigation. and i still can find something else than clashes :(

lopidav: where is the forum at

lopidav: what is happening

BlaiseEbuth: A forum master lopidav has lost...

lopidav: I can access it via history but where is it on the page? Did it move to another site?

jacek: commmunity -> forums

lopidav: oh, that's way better than it was before. Thank you

eulerscheZahl: oh, now i have the new header as well

jacek: oO

Kitkat260: hi

Joseph_Mother: m

struct: How much time should I allow per turn for Amazons?

struct: 75ms?

Joseph_Mother: 69 ms

Joseph_Mother: i miss shortest code ones

struct: euler if you block these 2 things the streamer thing will be blocked


struct: or do you only wanna block the circle that show the number?

Westicles: With ABP is comes back

Westicles: it

struct: oh i use ublock origin

BlaiseEbuth: With adguard you can directly select to block on the page

struct: I think most blockers allow that

BlaiseEbuth: I got this :

Westicles: The problem is the three digits change every time you refresh (or maybe when the streams change)

BlaiseEbuth: Ah, this is on the old header.

BlaiseEbuth: On the new header :

Joseph_Mother: LUA WHAT THE FUCK

Joseph_Mother: 5.0 == 5

Joseph_Mother: WHAT IS YOUR

Joseph_Mother: GRRRR

struct: that isnt a lua problem

struct: and chill with the caps

Joseph_Mother: Im mad bruh

Joseph_Mother: thats some bs

jacek: oh my

struct: jacek what time do you think I should allow for amazons?

struct: or it doesnt matter much

eulerscheZahl: UTC

struct: I get a better answer everytime

jacek: that was my style :(

jacek: how many moves amazon game lasts?

struct: max should be 92

Default avatar.png QuratulAinAftab: how can I get fast at coding. I have the logic in mind but diffculty in coding it

jacek: 100ms is standard

struct: ok, so 2 games it is

struct: I was thinking on making it lower and playing 4 games

jacek: 4 games? what for

struct: I dont know I just thought it could be good

struct: Maybe im wrong

Astrobytes: 2 is enough

jacek: 2.5

jrke: for what?

jacek: i couldnt find nice amazon memes

struct: amazons jrke

Default avatar.png BtB1: boy the website is running really slow for me

JLukeSkywalker: yeah, i cant clash anymore

JeroenB: I have the same issue

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: Ditto. It's real bad.

JLukeSkywalker: and this is why change is bad

maras: it's laggy as hell today

JLukeSkywalker: dont fix something that isnt broke

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: Change?

djmil: LAGS!

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: (I've been away a while)

JLukeSkywalker: they changed the entire site format

maras: I'm waiting like 5 minutes to run my code

JLukeSkywalker: and now its dying

Default avatar.png OldJohn: Yes I suppose there is too much ghosts somewhere !

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: It just picked up dramatically for me.

djmil: yes.. test cases fails on timeout

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: Scratch that..... it's bad again.

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: :sob:

JLukeSkywalker: try clearing your cache and site cookies so that it loads the new webpage

JLukeSkywalker: helped me a bit

djmil: nope) this is internal site problem

JLukeSkywalker: there is definitely an issue connecting to the server, but the web page issues on your end will just compound it

djmil: i've tryed incognito mode, and it can not open main page :(

Default avatar.png TyTheDefaultGuy: That's disconcerting....

djmil: as hell!

struct: yeah, very slow

JLukeSkywalker: last clash i was in, no-one loaded in. 8 ppl got 0%

JLukeSkywalker: good job codingame

struct: Even bigger sites have problems sometimes

struct: dont need to be salty

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: Ok, the point has come across. Someone's probably working on a fix

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: I'm slow

monkey: Friday deployments ... always fun :wink:

Salted: Maybe it's just me, but the site seems to be down a ton lately. Are they having budget problems?

djmil: it's not only you)

struct: They deployed today, it might have bugs

Oguru: Glad to see i'm not the only one, i was just refactoring my code because i thought it was too inefficient (it probably was anyway)

djmil: Friday deploys.. mmmm... my favorite

NikkiBear: uggggggh LOL

Default avatar.png KouaArmand: :scream: Friday deploy

Astrobytes: Oh, not again. lol

eulerscheZahl: the Sopra thing got too competitive, the 95% were intimidated

Astrobytes: :D

darkhorse64: The battles have been down for most of the day. It does not help. Saelyos posted a bot 18 mn afer the start and is still #1

Salted: Oh it's getting bad. 503 errors. I'll try again tomorrow.

eulerscheZahl: Saelyos is a strong player

Astrobytes: Yeah I saw the issues this morning darkhorse64. Thought they'd fixed it.

darkhorse64: he is and he is fast

darkhorse64: too

LouieAniez: show saelyos?

eulerscheZahl: and he might had a bot already, at least for the classic multiplayer

LouieAniez: whos*

eulerscheZahl: even this contest isn't entirely new

Astrobytes: Almost the same as the Klee one

Astrobytes: Or whatever it was called

darkhorse64: I wasn't there

eulerscheZahl: only almost?

eulerscheZahl: I didn't try Klee

Astrobytes: I joined but didn't submit because it was codebusters

eulerscheZahl: wasn't Klee the contest where they leaked all the email addresses?

Astrobytes: I don't remember if it was exactly the same this time around or slightly different.

Astrobytes: Yes.

eulerscheZahl: that's an achievement: host a contest and the only thing I remember is a massive doxxing

Astrobytes: Yeah. Was a real classy move :D

jacek: now lets do the csb league recalc

Astrobytes: the email leak was Klee's fault as well btw

Astrobytes: Not CG

eulerscheZahl: i know

eulerscheZahl: what's that BCC? never used it

Astrobytes: I'm sure I still have the Klee apology email somewhere

eulerscheZahl: i never registered for that contest, so I don't have it

eulerscheZahl: but someone impersonating CG invited me to a paid coding tutoring

eulerscheZahl: and some others too

Astrobytes: I remember that yeah

Astrobytes: I've not had anything like that

eulerscheZahl: probably got my email from github. it's not the one I use on CG

eulerscheZahl: are you on github?

Astrobytes: Yeah

eulerscheZahl: this one?

Astrobytes: I've got two, that's mine yeah

Astrobytes: wtf is that

Astrobytes: Oh Thor

eulerscheZahl: i see a thor

eulerscheZahl: yes :D

Astrobytes: I had some short url pointing at it

Salted: Anyone use this before?


eulerscheZahl: i used some offline checker

eulerscheZahl: you download a large file and run a script on it

eulerscheZahl: and with high probability it tells you if you got pwned

Astrobytes: That sounds... interesting

eulerscheZahl: apparently I was but couldn't find my passwords currently in use

eulerscheZahl: wasn't willing to enter my email in some random textbox of a website

Salted: Google passwords seems to keep track of leaked passwords and lets you know if you're using a known password

Astrobytes: Yeah I know right. "Have I been pwned..." - well, you have now :P

Salted: Yeah, I tried my old school one. It's been pwned a lot apparently.

eulerscheZahl: Neumann speaking in that weird language again

Lanthanum267: i have a problem, when im on the test cases take like 2 mins each and im often getting 504 error and error #75 "Verification process has elapsed"

jacek: good this chat has prevention to accidently paste your password

jacek: like **********

eulerscheZahl: and he disabled the chat, we can't ping him :(

Astrobytes: Wat. Shocking behaviour!

Salted: So if I paste my password it gets starred?

jacek: eeyup

Salted: slk##2Slkd%324

Salted: Nope

Salted: Doesn't work

Salted: lol

jacek: you can see it but we dont

Salted: Hahaha!

Salted: Alt + F4 key reveals uses email addresses in tool tips

struct: On amazons should I bother rotating the board when players switch?

struct: Or should just black go first

eulerscheZahl: rotate avatars

jacek: just switch players' positions

struct: But board is symmetric

struct: no need for it :(

eulerscheZahl: do whatever the chess game does

Astrobytes: ^

jacek: random openings?

Astrobytes: shuddup you

Astrobytes: :D

eulerscheZahl: i downloaded flashpoint 197k flash games waiting for me

eulerscheZahl: and good ones from your memories?

jacek: flash :unamused:

Salted: Is codingame hosted through aws?

eulerscheZahl: AWS/Azure

eulerscheZahl: CG made contradicting claims

Salted: Neat!

eulerscheZahl: i know that the frontend and email are from AWS

eulerscheZahl: for the games they wanted to switch to Azure

Salted: I'm working on getting the aws developer associate certification. Any opinion on those certifications?

eulerscheZahl: i think it's mostly HR who cares about those

Salted: It's been nice doing it so far. There's a lot of little things I didn't know amazon could do.

Salted: I guess amazon does a lot though

eulerscheZahl: indeed

eulerscheZahl: I got a 1 week training 2 years ago

eulerscheZahl: was overwhelming

Salted: It is overwhelming! I'm thinking of switching to coding from engineering.

Salted: I've been an electrical engineer for ~10 years but it's harder and harder to find work that pays anything.

kovi: 1 week training? must be a strong nn after that

eulerscheZahl: seems jacek is influencing multiple users

Salted: Ha! @kovi

Westicles: I thought SW jobs are all in India now. EE should make much more

Salted: When we posted jobs for entry level ee we would get 400+ resumes.

Westicles: I guess it depends a bunch on specialty and location

struct: site slow again

struct: :(

eulerscheZahl: poor Neum4nn


struct: Everything is broken

Salted: Really? My chat was posted to a pastebin?

Astrobytes: Which is also - broken

Salted: haha, oh man

struct: if its long enough it goes to pastebin

Astrobytes: Depending on line breals

Astrobytes: *breaks and length

Westicles: Everything is broken. The stream sounds like gibberish

jacek: isnt this french?

Astrobytes: mdr

Salted: Well I was trying to say that EE tools have stopped getting updates for about 8 years. No new companies seem be entering the market. I think no new tools means that industry is dying or stagnant. So it's time to bail on electrical engineer.

struct: stream sounds fine on my end

Clement.G.: is there any problem with codingame site ?

Salted: Friday update

Clement.G.: When this will be patch ? :/

Salted: Zero idea

Salted: But its definitely rare to be down like this.

struct: reminds me of contests

struct: The sprint contest of locam was fun

Westicles: perfect time for everybody write a couple more contribs

struct: I cant give legalActions on Amazons

struct: Should I give the number of legal actions?

jacek: why you cant give legalActions?

struct: I mean i cant give them all

struct: for first turn its 2176

struct: Its way too much

Westicles: just give the best one

jacek: alright then give number of actions

jacek: are you gonna give 'random' like chess?

struct: I could


Westicles: So it seems very likely Tryangle Catch gets a 3rd approval today.

jacek: now lets wait till MSmits will give each move % winrate

Westicles: Better to WIP it until the french one is over?

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: why is it so slow today

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: ??

DesmondW: I've always seen it slow on Fridays but not other days. Is that anyone else's experience?

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: ddos

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: atack

eulerscheZahl: CG servers are looking forward to the weekend too

Astrobytes: :fire:

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: what the foco

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: what the foco!!!

VizGhar: what is foco?

eulerscheZahl: i'm off for today. good night

Astrobytes: night euler

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: gn

VizGhar: :wave:

struct: gn


struct: 25 million games per hour

struct: damn

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: a

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: a

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: a

struct: stop it

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: no

jacek: AutomatonNN will you stop him

AutomatonNN: possibility to continue as in a bad code

Default avatar.png General_Imaginaer: is there a way solve the games in assembler ?

Default avatar.png thebest2333232: no lol

MSmits: what a stupid waste of calculation time, what's the point of knowing which side has a tiny edge with completely random moves

MSmits: at least do this mcts style, why full random

MSmits: I hope they needed the heating

Astrobytes: Yeah, kinda strange study.

Salted: Probably need a paper

MSmits: you can probably write a paper with less than 1 billion games :P

struct: its only 40 hours

struct: not that much

MSmits: oh right, full random, no search

MSmits: i guess i spent a lot more on my meta mcts :P

MSmits: but at least there is a *point* to that

reCurse: Eye of the beholder

MSmits: yes

reCurse: The only absolute fact is it's still better than cryptomining

Astrobytes: :grin:

MSmits: guess so

MSmits: hey Astrobytes I presented my project for game design todat

Default avatar.png Mekole: Is the site completly overloaded tonight?

Astrobytes: Oh cool, how'd it go MSmits?

MSmits: started with the yavalath demo and then proceeded to explain my game design

Astrobytes: Yeah Mekole, servers are burning

MSmits: during the talk, i heard through the zoom call: "YES I WON"

MSmits: so apparently they were still playing the demo

Astrobytes: hahaha epic

MSmits: so i asked what level

MSmits: "Beginner"

MSmits: thats basically a 1000 iteration minimax

MSmits: not even depth 2 :)

Default avatar.png Mekole: @astrobytes thank for confirming

Astrobytes: no worries Mekole

Astrobytes: MSmits :rofl:

Astrobytes: Hey, they're new to the game though

MSmits: yeah its fine, but its just funny he exclaimed so loudly when its the lowest levek

MSmits: I thought he beat the hard one

Astrobytes: hehehe

Astrobytes: And that was your professor?

MSmits: no, another student

MSmits: professor was being professional

Astrobytes: Ah, you present to the other students too, gotcha.

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: went well overall, i'm glad thats done

Astrobytes: Game design doc went well too then

MSmits: yeah they were impressed i think

MSmits: except the one guy i guess, he was too busy playing yavalath

Astrobytes: Do you have to take questions on it or it's more informal?

Default avatar.png ErrorRazor: Looks like site's working again

MSmits: it's informal but the professor asked questions

struct: Just wait until he comes here and takes the 1st spot on yavalath

Astrobytes: lol struct

MSmits: he did ask about codingame

MSmits: so who knows

Astrobytes: Oh nice

MSmits: my next course is functional programming

MSmits: starts in 2-3 weeks i think

Astrobytes: Lisp?

MSmits: elm i think, but it may be different

Astrobytes: A lisp is a lisp is a lisp ()

MSmits: no idea what that means, i still have to learn that

jacek: or haskell

MSmits: not sure, i saw an old version of their course explanation that said elm

MSmits: I havent tried to check on US news for 2 days

MSmits: it's great

Astrobytes: The problems are not going away though.

MSmits: sure

MSmits: but it's boring enough to ignore now

MSmits: i dont live there after all

Default avatar.png General_Imaginaer: inline assembler works in c

Astrobytes: Status quo. Everyone can go back to sleep.

MSmits: thats why he's called sleepy joe

1400179: Did dbd r disclose what he was doing on othello? Just curious

MSmits: yes

jacek: MPC

Astrobytes: Yeah, multi probcut

jacek: and 300k weights :?

MSmits: multi probcut ab pruned minimax

1400179: So minimax with linear eval?

MSmits: i guess so

jacek: he also used n-tuples i think

1400179: Ah

Astrobytes: You sure jacek?

Astrobytes: Was that a subsequent version?

jacek: he was talking about 300k weights. what else could it be

MSmits: the probcut thing uses weights

jacek: but its 2 or 3 params no?

Astrobytes: Yeah, probabilities. You use them to cut...

kovi: but a full random stat can be irrelevant. say if black has a single winning 1st step and all other slightly loosing

MSmits: jacek not sure, i thought it was more

MSmits: maybe multiple lookups get combined to get those 2 or 3 numbers

1400179: He has by far the strongest bot, at least according to my attempts

jacek: we may never know until someone hilights dbdr

MSmits: I knew that reCurse

struct: oldjohn said its the bot that looks more human like

Astrobytes: not that many params but you end up with a lot of probabilities.

jacek: so you beat me reCurse? :(

1400179: Not by much but yeah

MSmits: the reason dbdr is not higher is because he's almost fully deterministic

Astrobytes: Theyr'e used to influence a and b cutoffs, I've forgotten most of the algo

1400179: db dr is the only reason I haven't submitted yet

1400179: My winrates are absolutely abysmal

Astrobytes: It's an excellent bot

Astrobytes: Logistello on steroids

1400179: logistello?

MSmits: sometimes he plays perfectly as far as i can tell, but usually dbdr's bot makes 1 mistake. No more than that

MSmits: when he plays perfectly i draw him

jacek: othello that won 6:0 to human champion in 97

Astrobytes: Yeah. Buro's othello program. Was what he invented MPC for iirc

1400179: Ah

struct: Didnt oldjohn work with him?

1400179: I'm starting to have a theory why NN eval is not working but it's kinda annoying

Astrobytes: Yeah.

Astrobytes: @struct

MSmits: I'm curious, do share if you want reCurse

1400179: The endgames are extremely easy to compute

1400179: But extremely hard to predict

MSmits: checks out in my experience

1400179: So I suspect all the NN energy is focused on endgames that can be computed in microseconds

1400179: So I need to write an endgame solver

Astrobytes: Yeah that sounds sensible

MSmits: thats not hard to do, but will take you a bit of time

1400179: That's where I notice the biggest deltas of eval anyway

MSmits: it would actually make a lot of your NN's better if you added stuff like that

jacek: i noticed you dont use shortest wins in bt sometimes. meh

1400179: I only bother with what's necessary

MSmits: i noticed you sometimes make a mistake on oware with 7 or so seeds remaining

MSmits: have seen a draw turn into a win fo rme

1400179: It's possible, I suspect oware has the same issue with endgames

1400179: As othello

Astrobytes: Something like that :D

MSmits: yeah makes sense

Astrobytes: Game is bonkers

Astrobytes: (oware)

MSmits: well let me know if you want any help with the endgame stuff, i dont mind sharing some of how i did this with oware. it's a pretty algorithm

1400179: Well I'm doing othello first I guess

MSmits: would you go for a typical ab solver?

MSmits: or a specialized solver

MSmits: specialized would go deeper, but if you dont solve, you dont have a good move

1400179: Not sure what you mean by specialized

MSmits: like proof number search

MSmits: it only proves the win/loss

MSmits: but it doesnt give an eval score

1400179: That's what a solver is

MSmits: sure

MSmits: but a normal minimax search also solves

MSmits: and if you fail, you still have a good move

1400179: Sure but I'm not talking about search, I already have it

MSmits: i meant with a simple eval instead

1400179: Then I have two problems

Astrobytes: Did you do a proof number solver in the end MSmits?

MSmits: no, but i understand the theory. I was gonna use it for uttt, but never did

1400179: Not sure what you mean by that

Astrobytes: Yeah, it's a bit more work

MSmits: by proof number search?

1400179: Yeah

MSmits: it's a treesearch that prefers the most solving nodes

MSmits: and only solves, but doesnt eval


1400179: Ah i googled proof number solver, serves me right

Astrobytes: I had some papers but I think I've misplaced the links

MSmits: it is usually better than a typical ab or mcts solver search

MSmits: but you won't have a backup move if all you calc time goes into this

1400179: That's the point

Default avatar.png Angecide: but you would have to do normal mcts until the tree contains terminal nodes right?

MSmits: Angecide no,

MSmits: it's hard to explain over chat, it's a bit weird

MSmits: basically, nodes are just unsolved, until they are solved, no eval or other stats. It just keeps the number of unsolved children

MSmits: or descendants actually

MSmits: let me find a good paper sec

1400179: Intuitively it seems like it shouldn't be better than minimax

Default avatar.png Angecide: but they will stay unsolved for a while I imagine, until you reach the later stages of the game, but for uttt you would have to pick a move fast

Default avatar.png Angecide: so you would end up picking a unsolved move, which is just as good as any of the other unsolved move, and thus just a random move I presume


MSmits: this one is ok i think

MSmits: comparison with ab on page 21

1400179: huh

MSmits: i remember another paper that also compared with mcst solver, but i cant find it now

MSmits: in any case, all PNS variants were usually better than ab or mcts

MSmits: makes sense to me, solving is all they can do, it's specialized for that one purpose.

Astrobytes: yeah there's a couple of papers (probably still by Winans et al) that helped me understand

1400179: Well today is one of those days I'll feel dumber by the end of it

Astrobytes: *Winands

Astrobytes: I feel like that every time I read one of these papers

MSmits: reCurse it's informed ignorance

MSmits: before today you did not know

Astrobytes: hah, nice

1400179: It has to use some kind of heuristic

MSmits: yeah, it counts solved and unsolved descendants

1400179: Does it assume stuff like positions that lost are more likely to lose again or something?

MSmits: with backpropagation

1400179: Ok so then it's heavily dependent on the domain

MSmits: probably, but it has been used in many

MSmits: it might be very effective in othello because othello has the mobility as part of most evals

MSmits: and mobility means more nodes

MSmits: or this might make it anti-effective. Not sure

1400179: I'd rather not tackle more heuristics

MSmits: it's not really a heuristic

MSmits: it's just the only thing that is tracked

MSmits: like mcst tracks wins and visits

MSmits: this tracks solved and unsolved instead

MSmits: so it's quite simple

1400179: I think the tree will cause a massive overhead

1400179: I'm not looking to solve depth 20 positions

MSmits: ohh, my bot does 15-20

MSmits: just from mcts solver

1400179: I want to solve positions that take less time than an eval

MSmits: well that's no problem then if you only need the last 10 or so

MSmits: just use any typical othello eval

1400179: Noooooooo

MSmits: 10 is real easy

1400179: I want to minimize domain knowledge

MSmits: well it's really minimal, my bot has 7 params and features

MSmits: but ok

MSmits: hmm

MSmits: you can just do mobility only

MSmits: maybe that'll work

MSmits: just avx the thing, there's some stuff you can steal online

MSmits: very efficient move generators


1400179: If I start handcrafting evals then what's the point of going NN

Astrobytes: dammit

MSmits: reCurse the point is, there is not much handcrafting required since you require so little depth

1400179: So why mobility

Astrobytes: In contrast to other best-first algorithms PN search does not need a domain-dependent heuristic evaluation function to determine the most-promising node to be expanded next [2]. In PN search this node is usually called the most-proving node. PN search selects the most-proving node using two criteria: (1) the shape of the search tree (the branching factor of every internal node) and (2) the values of the leaves.

MSmits: cuz you already have the moves generated. Count them :P

1400179: Sorry I don't get it, use it for what? Move ordering?

MSmits: yeah i guess so

MSmits: or iterative ab?

MSmits: to use with TT

1400179: I think a dumb ab is as much as I can afford

MSmits: why "afford"

MSmits: code size limits?

Astrobytes: This can be done offline

1400179: No

1400179: The point is to let the eval focus on better roi

MSmits: dont you just use the full calc time in those last 10 turns?

1400179: Instead of focusing on stuff that can be solved in microseconds

1400179: But if the ab takes 1ms then it's pointless

MSmits: roi?

1400179: return on investment

MSmits: ohh now i get it

1400179: There is a domain agnostic property, if it takes less time to brute force than eval then just brute force it

MSmits: you want to end the search early

MSmits: and solve

MSmits: i thought you would spend a whole turn doing this

1400179: No

1400179: Well maybe

MSmits: oh that's tricky

MSmits: then you cant do 10 turns

MSmits: too expensive

MSmits: if you want to do it at every leaf 10 turns from the end i mean

1400179: I don't know how fast it can be

MSmits: I wonder if TT is helpful here

1400179: No

MSmits: probably not no... there's some, but not enough

Astrobytes: PN* uses TT

MSmits: it's very helpful in oware, with those low seed boards

1400179: Probably

MSmits: Astrobytes optionally i think?

Astrobytes: No it's part of its iterative deepening structure

Astrobytes: *multiple iterative deepening

MSmits: reCurse the reason i recognize your end game issue is that when i am hardcoding moves vs old john for example, my bot tends to do the best moves for 10-20 turns in a row sometimes and then messes up right before it can solve, it's quite annoying

Astrobytes: A few other variants use it too

MSmits: so it doesnt need the book until the very end it seems :P

1400179: Well it's also that the game is at its most volatile at the end

MSmits: so there's something volatile about the endgame

1400179: Even though it's very straightforward

MSmits: yeah

1400179: Like imagine if a game is solved at the end by very complex formulas that a computer can bruteforce super easily

1400179: Then why bother learning that formula

MSmits: the best bots i think have 3 separate evals, beginning, mid and endgame

Astrobytes: *evals or approaches

MSmits: there's 1 serious othello bot on gith

1400179: Seems sensible

MSmits: loads of code

MSmits: it has those 3 evals

1400179: I'm not even sure why I'm spending time on this tbh

1400179: but w/e

Astrobytes: I think I've seen that one

MSmits: because you started :P

Astrobytes: Play some Othello

1400179: I don't even like the game

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: tbh it's not my favorite either. I prefer BT over it

1400179: True

1400179: BT is very fun to watch

MSmits: but hey i never played it for real

MSmits: Astrobytes says its fun

Astrobytes: BT is just hardcore pawn...

MSmits: it's just very strategically visual or however you say that

MSmits: no beginner knows whats going on with othello

Astrobytes: It's easier to visualise than Othello for sure

MSmits: same with oware, that seed stuff is very obscure

Astrobytes: If you actually play it (or a variant) physically it's not so hard

Astrobytes: re. Oware

MSmits: yavalath, connect4, BT, these are all games any beginner will be able to "get" in a few minutes

MSmits: not be good, but at least follow

1400179: Maybe I should have done checkers instead

1400179: smh

Astrobytes: Oware (and variants) are played by kids around the world

jacek: its a draw-fest

Astrobytes: As well as professionals

MSmits: reCurse go here for checkers:

struct: Thats why they play from certain positions on tournaments

MSmits: jacek checkers is mostly drawn because most bots dont know how to finish a game

MSmits: you get infinite repetition

MSmits: even though any reasonable end game db will give the strongest player a win. But it might take 50 rounds and ab bots dont see that far

MSmits: I still have it on my list to put a 3 piece end game db into checkers. I hope that helps a bit

Astrobytes: You can use different variations on ab (or indeed a completely different algo) at various stages in the game remember

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: It just gets a chore to fit all those params, unless you've built for yourself a framework to do this automaticlaly

Astrobytes: And here was me thinking that was the fun part :see_no_evil:

MSmits: well I used to do this with CG bench

MSmits: and sometimes locally depending on the game

MSmits: but I really just need to do it automatically. Get some TD going

Astrobytes: You do have a point.

MSmits: jacek did it and he sucks at math apparently

Astrobytes: No, he hates mathematical notation.

MSmits: o right that was it

jacek: mhm

MSmits: but thats a hurdle

jacek: i just need to code the math

MSmits: was just saying i need a TD framework

struct: Dont know what to do for UI on amazons

MSmits: what are your choices?

MSmits: and also, what do you mean by UI?

MSmits: it's a bot game

struct: The viewer

MSmits: ah

Default avatar.png captaineSlip: the User Interface

MSmits: techically the interface is the input/output structure is why i asked

Astrobytes: that would be the API :P

MSmits: well should it be different from other games in some way?

struct: I guess ill do something simple

MSmits: yeah i guess api is the correct term

MSmits: you can always beef it up while it's in WIP

MSmits: right?

Astrobytes: Nothing complex needed atm struct

struct: yeah i can

Astrobytes: Yeah, as MSmits said, if something is needed it'll be pointed out

MSmits: I dont know how to even write a search for a game with a branching of 1k :P

MSmits: I need to prune over 90% of that

struct: There are a lot of papers

struct: they say from first 2k moves, 20 are good

MSmits: does it remain that way?

MSmits: 1% being good?

Astrobytes: No.

MSmits: hm ok

MSmits: so you hardcode the first move

MSmits: or random from a set of 20

struct: end game is hard

Astrobytes: ^

Astrobytes: There's a reason they use it for research ;)

Default avatar.png jambokampy: is clash super laggy for everyone or just me

MSmits: with a NN, you have just enough time to lookup each possible move :P

MSmits: without even a tree

Astrobytes: jambokampy: sorry, it's a known issue, devs are aware

Default avatar.png jambokampy: ah no worries just wanted to check

MSmits: jambokampy it's laggiest mode

MSmits: gonna go sleep. Hopefully tomorrow i can get some cotr working

MSmits: see if i can beat manual solutions

Astrobytes: lol, masochist. gn MSmits.

MSmits: gn!

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Hi Astrobytes

Astrobytes: hey zhoubou, how's it going

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Doing alright. Switching between many things, finally "found" some time for CG

Default avatar.png zhoubou: How about you?

Astrobytes: Always time for CG... well, not really, but you know

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Haha yeah

Astrobytes: Yeah, not much to report from here tbh

Astrobytes: When is your work exam?

Default avatar.png zhoubou: 6.2.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: 6th of February, that is

Astrobytes: Plenty time then

Astrobytes: I got it :)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, wasn't sure lol

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, I think it's decent amount of time

Astrobytes: Enough to work some CG into the schedule outside of other life things at least ;)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Of course :)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I'm wondering... How do you handle learning programming? Or anything for that matter. With so many things to go into, how to not get caught up in a rabbit hole with so much information available, so many different courses and tutorials. So many programs and learning paths. Omg lol

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Not to mention books and other resources.

Astrobytes: Well, when I decided to properly learn I went from the ground up.

Astrobytes: Theory first.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I thought trying to go from the ground up is my problem. I was thinking about re-learning math first.

Astrobytes: The internet was a little less helpful than it is today. There's a lot of helpful stuff out there but also a lot of absolute crap.

Astrobytes: Which parts of mathematics are you lacking in?

Astrobytes: And what's your goal with programming?

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I have no clue re math. I have some basic knowledge in a lot of math, but very basic in most.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I would have to start from algebra or something

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Or past it

struct: for some stuff you dont really need math

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, I've gotten quite a bit without much math

Astrobytes: ^ It depends what you want to achieve and what level of knowledge you want

struct: if you want to make a NN you probably will need math

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Re programming goal, I am thinking about it career-wise in the long run. In the short run, I want to build my portfolio, so some projects. In even shorter run, I'm here on CG, trying to improve.

Astrobytes: For general CS stuff it's graph theory, discrete maths, linear algebra, maybe number theory, that kind of thing

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Not sure which path I would take

therealbeef: don't forget that programming is a practical discipline; so just program a lot, and search for answers to specific questions when you encounter them

Astrobytes: ^ yep

struct: Everytime I try to read the papers that are posted here

struct: I cant understand the math

Astrobytes: Many, many programmers are not overly well versed in aspects of CS, hopefully they know the domain they are working in :)

therealbeef: You can also learn a lot from having your code reviewed by others

Kitkat260: sp

Astrobytes: Weren't you doing a CS degree struct?

Default avatar.png zhoubou: struct Does that represent a problem for you? Or do you manage?

Astrobytes: Personally, I always recommend everyone doing mathematics to some level or another.

struct: yes

struct: But I still struggle with it

Astrobytes: lost in a vector field :)

struct: I have phases where my brain doesnt work at all

struct: dont know why

jacek: or struct field

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I am also interested in math, and would love to explore it, but I don't know to which extent, since I'm also interested in a ton of other stuff and I'm not sure how much time I can spend on math alone.

Astrobytes: struct, I've been there

Astrobytes: Still happens tbh

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I've got problems like that as well

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I think most people do to some extent

Astrobytes: You have to 'chunk' things into what you *need* to learn in order to learn what you *want* to learn. And spend some time thinking about that beforehand.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: But how do I know what I need to learn until I learned it and see that I can use it in a part of a project?

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Maybe I'm overthinking this

Astrobytes: Break "what you *want* to learn" into things you *need* to learn

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Hmm, that makes sense

Astrobytes: Pick a goal. I'm not saying you need to think "I'm gonna make a self-driving car!" - start tiny!

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Well, CG is a collection of goals that can lead to my grander goals. So I'm onto a good start I guess

Astrobytes: Small projects with clear goals, try to figure what you need to learn to accomplish that.

Astrobytes: Yeah, CG puzzles and multis are good for that in a way

Default avatar.png ZtimE: tiny is key!

Astrobytes: But a lot of stuff here you might never even use in a dev job

Default avatar.png ZtimE: also tiny is fun :)

Astrobytes: True to an extent.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Astrobytes I fear I might be wasting my time here then

Astrobytes: No, not at all

Astrobytes: Great place to practice languages and learn algorithms.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Hmm

Astrobytes: It's just likely you won't be using a/b minimax or MCTS in your day-job :)

therealbeef: CG is also great to experiment

therealbeef: and to learn optimization

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Ah, I see. Astrobytes

Astrobytes: Yeah, the time constraints really make you push yourself

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I guess you're right guys

Astrobytes: But definitely learn elsewhere too. CG is more 'practice-based'

Default avatar.png zhoubou: What am I thinking, I've nailed CvZ

Astrobytes: Heh!

therealbeef: you won't learn software engineering (= professional) here ;) just programming (=hobby)

Astrobytes: Yeah 100%. You can learn a lot here, an awful lot - believe me - but not how to be a dev.

Default avatar.png ZtimE: and programming at "software engineering" aka "paid spaggetti" is something you learn on the job, you dont need it before you actually get a job

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Does codecademy count as elsewhere?

Astrobytes: "paid spaghetti" :D

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Haha

Astrobytes: Sure zhoubou. Let your portfolio and knowledge do the speaking, not your learning sources.

therealbeef: true, ZtimE

Default avatar.png zhoubou: So I need to pick a small project and just get into it.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Put it into my portfolio, learn some more and do another

Default avatar.png ZtimE: and apply for jobs!

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, which I dread currently

Astrobytes: Yes. Delve into projects, delve into the language(s) and go for it.

therealbeef: Most new hires I get in my team are pretty rough, but that doesn't matter. we give them 100+ comment in their first code review and the polishing starts :D

Astrobytes: Failures are just lessons.

Default avatar.png ZtimE: yes it is absolutely terrifying, but worth it

Default avatar.png zhoubou: therealbeef Really?

struct: Just code like you are playing coc and you will be fine

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Astrobytes True

Default avatar.png zhoubou: ZtimE I guess you're right

Astrobytes: struct :rofl:

Default avatar.png zhoubou: struct Haha

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I've played one, and finished first. I'm not doing another or I'll fall in leaderboard

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Lol

Astrobytes: Yeah, don't say *that* in an interview :P

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I hope I won't blurt it out :P

Astrobytes: lol

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I'm thinking about something. I can do a project for my company

Default avatar.png zhoubou: When I finished some smaller projects, that is

Astrobytes: Even little apps/tools that help you in your current position

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Well, I'm scripting at job currently

Default avatar.png zhoubou: The next step is building tools, yeah

Astrobytes: Right. So build on that.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I feel so much more motivated now. Thank you so much

Astrobytes: Keep the motivation up :)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I hope it lasts until after my exam

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Hehe

Astrobytes: Eh, get that out the way first!

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Will do :)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Did I say until? Remove that word lol

Astrobytes: Also, I meant to ask, how is the rebuilding effort going in the earthquake-affected areas zhoubou? (Petrinja iirc?)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, Petrinja, Sisak, and surrounding areas. It's a paperwork mess

Astrobytes: I heard there were some tremors recently as well, just to help everything

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, I'm not counting anymore

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Not too strong though

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I wish the state was more... helpful

Default avatar.png zhoubou: But it complicated the rebuild process

Astrobytes: Still, it stops work being done. Paperwork eh. Bureaucracy > lives remember! :/

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah..

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I'm ashamed to work where I do

Astrobytes: Hey, you need a job.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Yeah, you're right

Astrobytes: Can't fix the state sitting in a field.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: And I don't participate in any decision-making, so there's that

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I'm just a humble IT tech support

Astrobytes: I get the same feelings working in pharma regulatory. At least it's not the big companies.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Oh yeah

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Well, still, if it were the big ones, somebody will work there. So it doesn't make much difference

Astrobytes: And before anyone asks I've got nothing to do with SARS-COV-2 vaccines.

Astrobytes: I just validate or invalidate things.

Astrobytes: I don't work for anyone btw, they just hire me on a consultancy basis.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Oh

Astrobytes: Sounds really fancy and well-paying but it really isn't.

Astrobytes: Especially since Brexit.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Too bad :/

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Though it has its perks?

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Or not really?

Astrobytes: Before my health issues (my back) - and the whole pandemic issue - I was assistant manager at my local conservation centre, which was awesome.

Astrobytes: What perks? Sitting in production rooms analysing labels? :D

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Haha

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I have no clue

therealbeef: babes?

therealbeef: :D

Astrobytes: It's not the most glamorous job. Checking samples, validating new cold-storage facilities, staring really hard at tablets looking for faults, writing SOPs

Default avatar.png zhoubou: SOPs?

Astrobytes: Ah, Standard Operating Procedures

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Ah, google is my friend then

therealbeef: Did you finish those TPS reports?

Astrobytes: lol, Office Space right

therealbeef: I'll send you the memo again

therealbeef: :D

Astrobytes: hehehe

struct: I suck with colors, everytime I change something a new illusion appears

VizGhar: Yeah guys... All hard puzzles done :metal:

struct: grats

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Wow, congrats!

Astrobytes: struct: on Amazons?!

struct: yes

Astrobytes: VizGhar: hah! Well done sir :)

Astrobytes: Maybe you just need a break struct!

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Or a designe course

Default avatar.png zhoubou: design*

Default avatar.png zhoubou: :P

Astrobytes: Aren't you just doing it on a chessboard struct?

struct: yes

Astrobytes: What's the issue?

struct: I dont know what colors to use


Default avatar.png zhoubou: That looks fine to me?

struct: Those colors make the border look thinner

struct: On some parts

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Oh, I see

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I don't think it's a color issue though

Astrobytes: It's hard to say if that's an illusion or if you're off by a pixel

Astrobytes: Why not drop the lines?

struct: nice


Astrobytes: ;)

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Astrobytes design guru

struct: thanks

Astrobytes: lol, nah. No worries struct, just think simple first.

Default avatar.png Steezy: online clashes dead?

struct: not sure if site is still slow

Default avatar.png Steezy: lets hope not:/

Astrobytes: Seems a little better?

Astrobytes: Anyway, out for tonight, gn and cya tomorrow

Default avatar.png zhoubou: gn

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I'm off as well

struct: gn

Default avatar.png Steezy: #1 tech hiring platform btw

struct: Thats CG for work

struct: no CG

struct: not*

Default avatar.png Nekai: Seemed to me the website was slow, checked for errors, and I keep getting Failed to load resource: net::ERR_BLOCKED_BY_CLIENT

Jasperr: Yeah, that happens every day for ~15 minutes at UTC 02:42

Jasperr: UTC 02:15*

Default avatar.png Nekai: Yep, fixed now, thanks for the warning

Default avatar.png RyanGilbert: streaming rn, anyone care to join/

Salted: 100 person clashes?

Salted: This is a bit mad

Default avatar.png RyanGilbert: ^

struct: you managed to join one with 100 people?

Salted: It had slots for 100 people and listed it as 5/100 people

Salted: Luckily not 100 people joined before it started. That would be madness!

struct: Max I joined was on ~80

struct: It crashed shortly after

struct: :D

struct: you couldnt submit at all

Salted: Ha! I guess the site is still a bit buggy after the update

struct: Nah, these was long ago, back when that feature was released

Default avatar.png BtB: Hi, all

Salted: hi

jjhiggz: hello everybody

Salted: Heyo!