Almost404: man i really need to learn python3 doing clash in java is heartbreaking
Enknable: learn Ruby if you want to win clash
Almost404: i just dont want to smallest code and they have 57 chars and i have 445
Almost404: might bad tho
Enknable: almost guaranteed a 30% wr tho.
Enknable: give or take losing to another Ruby user in golf
siddharthdeo99: from where i can master basics in python
jacek: happy Caturday
eulerscheZahl: hi
reCurse: moin
NA08: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/154739633152b90d5f8b7dab08e9f3393ce0e97
jacek: reCurse i see you fixed your bugs
jacek: does p2 has advantage still?
eulerscheZahl: the perfect submit :o
jacek: used to be me :(
eulerscheZahl: may I remind reCurse that he wanted to stay away from community games (mainly because of the low match count)
TBali: shall I fight the borrower today, or shall I go swiftly?
TBali: Life choices...
Takkashi: moin
TBali: I like type safety, but Rust takes it to an interstellar level...
Westicles: Ran out of problems to solve in PHP?
mzbear: rust is super tedious to write, but perhaps i'm just not fluent enough with it. however, every time i've ported a piece of my c++ code to rust, the compilation has initially failed because it has exposed crazy buggy corner cases that existed in my c++ code, and i really like that. i'm just completely unable to prototype anything in rust, i have to write it in c++ first :D
tekki: :) mzbear
Westicles: I judge languages by the quality of their heredoc. Rust is one of the better ones
TBali: well, I am not completely against Rust, I see the advantage of being very strict.
But for simple puzzles it can be a pain.
Example all the different integer types are REALLY different
TBali: A small example, I encountered now: Don't Panic puzzle
TBali: vector can be indexed only by usize
TBali: fine, floor number is typicaly usize.
TBali: However sometimes input can be -1 so it is read as i32
TBali: now I have to make a specific edge case - out of 27 languages only 2 neeeded this.
TBali: But most likely there are several much more elegant solutions in Rust for this particular problem.
mzbear: the puzzles aren't a very good case for evaluating a language, though, because the puzzles encourage writing code that is allowed to catastrophically fail with incorrect input
mzbear: if you had to do proper error checking in every language, it would even things out
TBali: I agree, it was just a firendly banter on my side.
Rust brought something new on the language table, and beginner level struggles might pay off on the long run.
dbdr: first message I see after a while is about Rust :)
mzbear: i never got past the beginner level in rust, because it's too tedious to write code in it :/
TBali: I raised the bar quite high - convert 30 short puzzle solutions... :-)
TBali: It takes the most time in comparison with other languages
TBali: (Except Bash and perl)
dbdr: you get most of the annoyances in doing such puzzles
dbdr: vs little benefits
dbdr: so I imagine it can be unappealing
TBali: Actually, I once gave up after 15, then started to read https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ now things make much more sense
TBali: but still a beginner
TBali: put a 4h Rust fundamentals video on Pluralsight on the near todo list :-)
dbdr: yeah, the book is highly recommendd
dbdr: most languages you can learn from practice + google + API
dbdr: rust has new concepts, if you ignore that you are going to suffer
TBali: stackoverflow is my friend - except when it is not
mzbear: this was also "fun" read: https://rust-unofficial.github.io/too-many-lists/
dbdr: stackoverflow is problem oriented, not concept oriented, most of the time
TBali: Well, first few puzzles I did without even having heard of the borrower concept... it was like a monkey trying to do Shakespear
TBali: mzbear - thanks I saw that, but put aside for later. I am at more basic stuff
TBali: Where does the name come from? I have been to Rust in Austria at Fertő-tó several times...
eulerscheZahl: dbdr is back \o/
dbdr: xmas is over ;)
TBali: maybe by an auto trigger to "Rust" :-)
eulerscheZahl: so we can either have you or xmas?
eulerscheZahl: i choose you
dbdr: let me imagine rust was a constant topic for the whole of 2021 ;)
dbdr: eulerscheZahl is sweet this year :o
jacek: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VKza949FL._AC_.jpg
eulerscheZahl: nah, I just don't care about xmas :P
dbdr: I started a Futurama rewatch :)
dbdr: evil Santa and all
eulerscheZahl: cool, one of my favorite TV shows
jacek: really?
eulerscheZahl: yeah, great show
eulerscheZahl: you missed the confirmation that community contests are dead :(
dbdr: hum, looks like I got closer to _Royale by not doing anything
maybe I should continue on that path :D
eulerscheZahl: i blame royale for being inactive too
eulerscheZahl: your ideas made me climb at CotR
eulerscheZahl: you told smits to run a beam search. he passed that on to me
dbdr: yeah, probably he hasn't done many of the new multis that slowly give more CPs
eulerscheZahl: or quickly if PotW
dbdr: aha, cool, didn't remember talking to you about cotr, that xplains it
dbdr: oh, sub 3k, nice eulerscheZahl
dbdr: eu<tab> does not work :(
eulerscheZahl: still for 2 or 3 my handcrafted solution is better than my solver
jacek: use AutomatonNN for that
AutomatonNN: and what is that link?
eulerscheZahl: but i found some nice paths with beam search. one with a loop of length > 20
dbdr: only 2 or 3? :no_mouth:
eulerscheZahl: and I don't support nested loops :(
eulerscheZahl: and i could even improve my score if i would copy the replays from the overview page. some of those are better than what I have
Westicles: why mess with multis when you can delve into the exciting world of Horn-satisfiability?
eulerscheZahl: sounds like a puzzle from a Cat?
Westicles: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/horn-sat-solver
eulerscheZahl: no, not even from him
BlaiseEbuth: :metal:
eulerscheZahl: seems like I did a rage-quit there
Westicles: Anytime anyone says your contrib is inappropriate for CG, this link should be kept handy
dbdr: isn't there a very hard category?
eulerscheZahl: and 3 of your favorite users approved it
dbdr: I know JBM was one of them :D
dbdr: *knew
eulerscheZahl: he now got his freecell approved. without having a solver on his own
eulerscheZahl: i tried a bit but it will be hard to solve FreeCell within 1s I think
BlaiseEbuth: eulerscheZahl -> the approvers identity is precisely why the puzzle is inappropriate :smirk:
ChampionCoder: Lol I just got my own contribution in a clash! :smile:
ChampionCoder: Soled it in like 44 seconds
ChampionCoder: *Solved
eulerscheZahl: i stopped clashing when I got a contribution that I approved 2h before
ChampionCoder: Haha
eulerscheZahl: didn't feel right to me
ChampionCoder: I like CoC more than other things, but Bot Programming is an close second to it
Westicles: BlaiseEbuth, nah it just is a very specialized problem you would have to research a bunch or already know the answer. That's the exact reason people give for rejecting contribs all the time
eulerscheZahl: I think those unwritten requirements drifted over time
eulerscheZahl: it was approved 2.5 years ago. we don't know if it would still pass today
BlaiseEbuth: I'm joking. Don't even know this puzzle.
eulerscheZahl: I never tried to solve. I know about the theoretical background from lectures
BlaiseEbuth: What is appropriate for CG is not clearly defined anyway... :smirk:
eulerscheZahl: there are some loose guidelines. It got a little better
eulerscheZahl: e.g. we now know that close duplicates are allowed for CoC
BlaiseEbuth: :expressionless:
eulerscheZahl: doesn't reflect my personal opinion so I stopped moderating those. that simple
Westicles: Well to be fair, it is difficult to know what is out there already on COC
eulerscheZahl: getting too many to review them anyways these days
eulerscheZahl: i often pointed out that we have almost exactly that clash already and linked it
creator: oh, i didn't know. and totally understood that there's no need for a 2nd one
eulerscheZahl: the main question: where can I see a list of clashes
BlaiseEbuth: Do you know this tool ? https://eulerschezahl.herokuapp.com/codingame/puzzles/
eulerscheZahl: oh nice. haven't seen that before
BlaiseEbuth: :ok_hand:
ChampionCoder: Somebody should make that official
eulerscheZahl: I didn't even know that https works :o
ChampionCoder: Just before submitting, they should search if the puzzle is already in the list
ChampionCoder: Hey eulerscheZahl, did you create that
ChampionCoder: ?
eulerscheZahl: yes
dbdr: let's see if Skynet 1 -> 2 is trivial
ChampionCoder: Oh ok :+1:
BlaiseEbuth: Don't you have configured https yourself ?
eulerscheZahl: no, comes from heroku
eulerscheZahl: i checked the certificate
eulerscheZahl: issued to: *.herokuapp.com
ChampionCoder: Ha Ha, BitWolf did not get how to solve my puzzle :laughing:
Which means that another player did not get it
eulerscheZahl: maybe i can configure it to enforce https
BlaiseEbuth: Oh. I did'nt know heroku. Thought it was just a part of your domain.
eulerscheZahl: and now the ghost of that player will forever haunt the CG servers
eulerscheZahl: heroku is free web hosting
ChampionCoder: Haha yeah :)
eulerscheZahl: with a database and server for your own code
eulerscheZahl: supports python (django/flask), ruby, php and a few others
eulerscheZahl: the free database is limited to 10k rows. which is why i removed the codejam search recently
eulerscheZahl: had an sqlite file. but that's not persistent
eulerscheZahl: so i switched to postgres (keeps puzzles when I tell the server to update, I don't have to release a new version for that anymore)
eulerscheZahl: and codejam just was too big
eulerscheZahl: https://help.heroku.com/J2R1S4T8/can-heroku-force-an-application-to-use-ssl-tls
oh, the https part is pretty simple :)
BlaiseEbuth: I see. I prefer rent a small vps and do my grub on it, too many limitations and problems with classic hostings...
eulerscheZahl: i see the advantages of a paid server. e.g. stilgart grawls CG every day at the same time
eulerscheZahl: i can't do that easily I think
eulerscheZahl: and after 30min without request the website gets suspended
eulerscheZahl: giving a 10s delay when it's used again and needs to be restarted
BlaiseEbuth: erf
TBali: free lunch arrives with cold soup
eulerscheZahl: but it's free
eulerscheZahl: i'm they guy who eats twice or thrice as much as the average colleague when there is free pizza in the office
eulerscheZahl: updated, forward to HTTPS works
BlaiseEbuth: The taste of free...
eulerscheZahl: no, i'm just a good eater in general
TBali: Well if I had to choose from "free speech" and "free beer" i would go for "free speech" but it is a close call :-)
BlaiseEbuth: :pizza:
TBali: there is no fee pizza in home office
TBali: *free
eulerscheZahl: for beer it's a no brainer for me: speech it is
TBali: what about "free speech" and "free pizza" ?
TBali: fior lifetime
eulerscheZahl: that's a tough one
BlaiseEbuth: free beer
dbdr: euler challenging german stereotypes :+1:
eulerscheZahl: i also don't like German restaurants. Italian or Chinese are much better
dbdr: Italian in Italy are even better :)
TBali: I like Weisswurst but would not eat it too often
TBali: Same with pizza
dbdr: kid, when I was your age, it was possible to travel to other countries
eulerscheZahl: :older_man:
mzbear: servers are ridiculously cheap, though, if you're willing to manage one yourself
TBali: When I was very kid it was NOT possible
TBali: only to DDR
eulerscheZahl: i'm lazy and heroku works fine for me
mzbear: i have some servers from https://www.hetzner.com/cloud ... 3e/month is pretty good value for a simple linux box
Westicles: Everyone have their French smurf ready for the big contest?
mzbear: there have also occasionally been really good discounts at https://lowendbox.com/
dbdr: damn, I managed to break even the testcases that worked :D
eulerscheZahl: does that include a domain or do you need that extra?
TBali: I think I pay 25€ per year for my site
BlaiseEbuth: I am my French smurf
mzbear: no domain at those prices, although i think hezner's web hosting at 2e/month did include one... let me check
TBali: For the contest - if statement is in French then I am doomed
eulerscheZahl: just curious, atm I have to reason to leave heroku
BlaiseEbuth: Use a translator
eulerscheZahl: i've particiapted in a contest where everything was in Russian. statement, whole website
eulerscheZahl: i got along pretty well with translators
mzbear: 10 setup fee, then 2e/month .. for managed web hosting at hetzner, including a domain registration. but they provide no cron jobs for that
eulerscheZahl: 1 or 2 things that I didn't fully understand. but we have a Russian chat here to ask
TBali: The site I am using since 2011 has only Hungarian website :-)
mzbear: hosting a website has gotten ridiculously cheap lately
eulerscheZahl: yeah. even if you want more than just the wordpress
TBali: I have cPanel, 5GB, php, mysql, etc... no php 8 yet though
eulerscheZahl: you and your love for PHP
TBali: actually it is a love and hate reationship
TBali: Internally I am a more "strict type" soul
TBali: but php is getting better in this respect
TBali: I learned php for my hobby site. And cheap hosting does not allow Java or C# backend
TBali: Python was out of view that time for me
eulerscheZahl: i'M pretty sure heroku offers Java
mzbear: i'm running a minecraft server on a 8e/month linux box with 4G RAM and 80G ssd disk, 3 virtual cores from AMD epyc 2.5GHz, but even the 3e box ran it surprisingly well. it's amazing how cheap it is
Westicles: Minecraft? Is that like fortnite?
TBali: minecraft server... thumbsup
eulerscheZahl: Node.js, Ruby, Java, PHP, Python, Go, Scala, Clojure
TBali: Westicles thubmsdown :-)
eulerscheZahl: that's what heroku supports
eulerscheZahl: have fun with Clojure
TBali: My solo puzzle conversion project is enough fun for Clojure
TBali: had to buy new ( keys
TBali: And LISP was a #3 or #4 language in some point of time...
Westicles: LISP was the only language taught when I was an undergrad
TBali: Not even Pascal?
Westicles: nope
TBali: In my undergrad years we had ML, Prolog, Modula2
eulerscheZahl: Pascal was my first language
eulerscheZahl: with an IDE older than myself
TBali: C64 BASIC for me
dbdr: TP IDE was way ahead of its time though
eulerscheZahl: it didn't support a mouse
TBali: Absolutely. It was sci fi
TBali: TP supported mouse but who would use that
TBali: I knew all keyboard shortcuts
eulerscheZahl: maybe i'm just too young to appreciate those tools
dbdr: get off my lawn and go learn vi ;)
eulerscheZahl: not even vim?
TBali: Well it evolved. Currwnt static analysis and linting is amazing
TBali: All info is at fingertip
dbdr: in truth I use nvim, i'm a sucker for modernity :D
TBali: neovim - yeah quite modern stuff
mzbear: Westicles, minecraft has a kind of in-world programmable circuit game mechanic, btw. You can do some quite wonderful things with it, not your average first person game
mzbear: so, not like fortnite :)
TBali: There were some talks about education edition. Did it come out?
TBali: I did not follow in past 2-3 years
mzbear: education edition has been out for some years, yeah, but i haven't tried it
Westicles: wow, surprised so many Microsoft fans here...
TBali: My son showed me what he did with redstone - pretty amazing, logic circuits, yeah
TBali: Mojang fan, not?
mzbear: microsoft bought minecraft quite a while ago, and although they've been hands off mostly, it's kinda changing slowly
mzbear: this year, they'll migrate all minecraft accounts into MSN accounts, for example, and i have some mixed feelings about that
TBali: Just checking https://education.minecraft.net/
It says "start coding" ... just like CG
TBali: Well, paid some really big bucks for it, afaik,
mzbear: 2.5 billion dollars. it's quite amazing how it happened, too
eulerscheZahl: MS bought github too :(
mzbear: Notch was frustrated about the whole EULA situation and tweeted jokingly a question if anyone wants to buy his share of mojang, and microsoft called and made that offer
TBali: LOL
BLU2403: Factorio is a really game for getting into automation, logic circuits, resource management, etc.
mzbear: it was regarding to whether third party servers were allowed to sell loot boxes, which minecraft EULA had forbidden them to do, and there was massive drama about it which drove Notch crazy
TBali: Factorio - will check, thx
BLU2403: You're welcome
dbdr: factorio is addictive!
mzbear: oh boy, factorio is another great game for a programmer. i think i have spent a total of 1000 hours in it, i have no idea how much time i wasted before it got on Steam
BLU2403: Some people have gone as far as creating 3D graphics using logic circuits in Factorio, among other borderline insane things
BLU2403: LOL
mzbear: well, the programmable lights were really begging for it :P
TBali: 1000 hours.... Then maybe I shouldn't check... :-)
TBali: Knowing myself
mzbear: TBali lol
BLU2403: Especially when you get into the modding community
BlaiseEbuth: I quitted the game when ms bought it. github is the last ms thing I use, and I don't know until when...
BLU2403: Then you can program just about anything
BLU2403: fCPU is a pretty cool mod on Factorio for learning Assembly Language, it's also helpful for simplifying combinator circuits
TBali: I had quite anti-MS sentiment earlier, but now I don't see that much difference between companies
mzbear: I took a 5 year break from minecraft after MS bought it, but somehow i ended up getting back
Westicles: wow, 1000 hours. that's like 3% of your awake adult life
BLU2403: Yep, that's Factorio :grin:
TBali: Guys, I told you a MILLION times not to exaggarate
organtrail: 1000 hours is 3 percent :( )
organtrail: oh no
dbdr: depends how long you live...
TBali: OR SLEEP
TBali: sorry capslock, not shouting
BLU2403: Just checked my Steam account: I've clocked 776.8 hours so far.
organtrail: ohh no i have multiple steam accounts :(
BLU2403: But who cares about circadian rythm anyway
organtrail: multiple games with 1k+ hours :(
TBali: I would be interested in my CG counter status...
TBali: Or not
BLU2403: ^ For Factorio
eulerscheZahl: I still use some MS stuff. Like VS Code or the .net framework
Stilgart: dbdr is back \o/
eulerscheZahl: it's just their OS that I don't like
eulerscheZahl: 5%er problems :P
BlaiseEbuth: Hate both... ^^
TBali: Every second Windows is fine
TBali: but let's not start a flame war, I am not interested in that
eulerscheZahl: you can't configure Windows to use it as efficiently as I am with i3
Stilgart: eulerscheZahl: chadok.info is quite light in requests actually
mzbear: Windows 2000 was kinda nice. Afterwards it started going downhill
organtrail: does anybody feel like games in the last 10 years have graphics but less playable ?
eulerscheZahl: but you have it running 24h/day
and with a cron job
BLU2403: There's also MineTest if you want an opensource alternative to MineCraft. The Mesecons and Pipeworks mods can be installed to get something similar to the redstone in MineCraft
organtrail: while games from early 2k were more playable , but worse graphics ?
TBali: 1000 api calls per days no? plus 10 for leaderboard?
eulerscheZahl: + the list of puzzles with upvote stats
eulerscheZahl: and solver count
TBali: organtail - I don't think it cen be generalized
mzbear: organtrail: games these days are indeed about content, not about game mechanics :/
TBali: I thoight onky about the xp leaderboard
BlaiseEbuth: If you look only at the AAA...
Stilgart: 1 per puzzle + 1 per category (to find if there is a new puzzle) + 15 calls to the leaderboard API + around 50 calls for extra players
Stilgart: one webpage calls ~10 API
TBali: which api lists all puzzle ids?
mzbear: smaller developers still explore game mechanics. all the Zachtronics games are quite nice, for example
TBali: I think I did not find a proper one for that
organtrail: i mean ya but how can you not only look at AAA ? indie games kinda like ur sibling trying something first time and ofc u gonna give some extra points
Stilgart: I use findProgressByIds
Stilgart: the one from the practice page I presume
eulerscheZahl: findAllMinimalProgress gives a list
mzbear: TIS-100 was kinda amazing game, for example
Stilgart: I have not so much memories of TIS-100
TBali: Puzzle/findProgressByIds ?
but then you need the id of the puzzle already, no?
Stilgart: but it was good enough to make buy space chem :drooling_face:
eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/services/Puzzle/findAllMinimalProgress
eulerscheZahl: with a payload of [null]
eulerscheZahl: gives a list of about 500 puzzles
organtrail: are there any android devs in here ?
Stilgart: let me check
TBali: I use Puzzle_findAllMinimalProgress but it is not full list
TBali: Maybe I remeber it wrong
eulerscheZahl: i just inspected now, never tried
TBali: it was several months ago I checked that
TBali: it requres authentication
mzbear: I loved that TIS-100 actually had a reference manual that you had to read. I suppose there's something wrong with my brain :D
organtrail: hmm im about to push my first android game using unity... in app purchases and google cloud save... im starting to get worried about TOS and retaining rights to muh art which will be shipped with the game instead of downloaded on gameload... anybody have tips or links ?
TBali: so I think those you did not solve is excluded - but mybe I am wrong
Stilgart: I indeed also use Puzzle/findAllMinimalProgress
BLU2403: Shenzhen-I/O is another assembly game from Zachtronics like TIS-100. Pretty interesting Embedded Electronics angle
Stilgart: are you telling me that this one has changed ?
BLU2403: for the gameplay
Stilgart: BLU2403: Shenzhen IO /o\
Stilgart: this one was really hard :)
BLU2403: :grinning:
Westicles: Work all day, go home and play games exactly like work
BLU2403: Yeah, the signal processing puzzles were something else
TBali: Stilgart - no most likely my mistake. It gives indeed a long list
BlaiseEbuth: Nobody said he works all day.. :3
TBali: Have to check if the untouched puzzles are there or not
Stilgart: I have freecell in my list
TBali: But for you it is the same :-)
Stilgart: so yes there are :D
Stilgart: they*
eulerscheZahl: i use an incognito tab to inspect those
eulerscheZahl: not logged in, list of 525 puzzles
TBali: OK, my bad. Thanks for the help
eulerscheZahl: my herokuapp has 436. but there are some official puzzles that I don't index
TBali: Still missing the XP leaderboard API
eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/services/Leaderboards/getGlobalLeaderboard
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/X0iXJXS
Stilgart: at some point, make 1 call per player on top 1000 would be better
Westicles: Should be 475 I think
TBali: euler - No, I meant what Stikgart did for top1k
TBali: low cp users are missing from xp leadeboard
eulerscheZahl: he has a way to manually add users. and check their individual profiles
Stilgart: I have added them manually
Stilgart: (well, I have a list + I can call the correct script via ssh)
Stilgart: CodinGamer/findCodingamePointsStatsByHandle
Stilgart: with "[$handle]"
eulerscheZahl: too bad the XP events are private
Stilgart: yep :/
eulerscheZahl: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/99f2909e-60bb-4520-a7e5-bbc929a80ad6
Stilgart: python3 command not found :p
Stilgart: mine is /usr/local/bin/python3-X with X = 7, 8 or 9
Stilgart: s/-/./
TBali: I have a list of handles from CP 1k-10k whou would make it to top1k xp. Mostly added yeah
eulerscheZahl: https://pastebin.com/YMrTtpKz
for me
TBali: Stilgart shall I send, or you have it (sure you can get, just fo convenience)
Stilgart: TBali: I only have a very old one
Stilgart: last time I did this was before OoC
TBali: I did it on dec 30 for the language toplist, send you in private
Stilgart: [CG]all: I want an achievement for "500 puzzles in a language" :p
TBali: 26 to go :-)
TBali: then we need to approve some more contribs for you
TBali: too bad, general quality is not too high
BlaiseEbuth: [CG]all: I want the "Contest creator" achievment in compensation, for I'll never get it otherwise.
Westicles: Tatami tilings looks okay, even if there are already a million tiling puzzles
TBali: I want a "most xp gain / most new sols" per month leaderboard
TBali: absolute value is fine, but that would make it more lively
Westicles: :)
Stilgart: Automaton2000: crate something, like a turtle for instance
Automaton2000: i think i just added
Stilgart: a /ignore feature would be nice too
Stilgart: for the webchat
zhoubou: I just realized something..
zhoubou: https://imgur.com/a/HjXn1fh
zhoubou: Lol
Stilgart: wow, gg
BlaiseEbuth: /ignore Automaton2020
BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Westicles: I really don't get all this Automaton business. Isn't it annoying?
BlaiseEbuth: Yeah it is. dbdr ! Rename it !
zhoubou: Rename it to "I"
Westicles: So many graph puzzles on here. Do you CS types actually use that kind of thing much at work?
jacek: i dont know if i ever used graph (explicitly) at work
jacek: but i use them in games
eulerscheZahl: they make good boards to walk on
eulerscheZahl: grid-based game => graph
jacek: and there is some :soccer: game that uses graphs
Westicles: Hmmm, well there are like 75 puzzles on graphs. Maybe time to have a moratorium on new ones
jrke: i added few images in resources in multi in my local computer but when i am running its showing its not there i also cleared temp files then also same error?why
Oliversss: answer me Sam!!!
Oliversss: i know you are here
Oliversss: SAAAAM
Oliversss: !!!!!!
Oliversss: WHY U NO ANSWER
Raghuveer: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/15476615490433d9d49155457841e101c4ac792
eulerscheZahl: jrke where did you save the images? in the assets folder?
jrke: re importing project worked thanks
D3adshotX25: hellp wporls
eulerscheZahl: you must be using eclipse :P
jacek: eclipse... i felt so nostalgic
Almost404: ew eclipse
jrke: yup eclipse
TomiiPomii: use JavaEditor like a Chad
jacek: kree java!
eulerscheZahl: BlueJ
_Lelouch_: PHP sucks
jacek: i bet you didnt write vacuum cleaner in PHP
codernikhil: C++ is best for competitive programming
codernikhil: but language doesn't make much difference you should be good in problem solving.
trictrac: eulerscheZahl : do you have a bot for TryAngle Catch ? I am alone :slight_smile:
jacek: what league
eulerscheZahl: yeah, in which league shall I submit?
eulerscheZahl: my bot is pretty basic :(
trictrac: the first one
eulerscheZahl: then I have to remove some commands
trictrac: OK i can push in all the league, you can choose
eulerscheZahl: no
eulerscheZahl: you can only submit in 1 league
jacek: but only one can be active at time
eulerscheZahl: i submitted in the lower now
trictrac: I know but my bot can be pushed in the 4 leagues. So I will go where someone is
eulerscheZahl: lowest for now
trictrac: thank you
eulerscheZahl: and it's 4-3 in your favor already :D
trictrac: Not significant for sure !
jacek: like 5% significatnt
eulerscheZahl: at least I can consistently beat jacek :P
eulerscheZahl: but you don't do more than random, do you?
jacek: i found some random code in C#, trying nw
eulerscheZahl: oh :D
eulerscheZahl: suddenly it looked quite familiar
eulerscheZahl: the movements
eulerscheZahl: your python on the other side was random I suppose
jacek: yes
jacek: i need to use german proxy to access talkchess :(
eulerscheZahl: works fine without proxy for me
jacek: no wai
geppoz: puzzle of the week quite hard this time...
geppoz: last test timeouts like hell :D
ChampionCoder: I agre
ChampionCoder: e
ChampionCoder: The week before the last was too easy
ChampionCoder: All test cases passed, but it was optimization, so the points counted, not the number of correct test cases
geppoz: :thinking:
geppoz: ROD CUTTING PROBLEM ?
Astrobytes: think he means 2048
ChampionCoder: Yes
ChampionCoder: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization/2048
geppoz: I'm talking about ROD CUTTING PROBLEM
Astrobytes: You're supposed to get 100% and then improve your points.
ChampionCoder: Yes
Astrobytes: I know geppoz
ProgrammerDog: Would it be okay to post my contribution here? I need one more approve.
jacek: 5$
ProgrammerDog: ?
BlaiseEbuth: 4.9$
ProgrammerDog: 4.8$
zhoubou: Hol' up
zhoubou: $5.1
eulerscheZahl: $4 and 100 cents
DaMonkey: 1.64$
eulerscheZahl: i know what you did with that number :D
jacek: :?:
eulerscheZahl: 1.64% of the CG community are classified as competitive
jacek: where does that come from
eulerscheZahl: lengthy discord discussion
jacek: oh
BlaiseEbuth: But that's not a real answer... Where does that REALLY come from ?
struct: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/06f49052-26f3-4b3d-ab42-fca456c6b218
eulerscheZahl: CG poll with 160k participants
eulerscheZahl: was on your main page at some point
struct: From those 3 options
eulerscheZahl: struct won, my internet was laggy
struct: I would always vote the learn first
eulerscheZahl: i think i voted fun
struct: or that one
eulerscheZahl: because for me competing is fun
struct: yeah
eulerscheZahl: but only a subset of the fun
eulerscheZahl: if they want to get our opinion about contest frequency, then they should ask for that and not try to extrapolate
eulerscheZahl: but i guess they don't really want to know :(
Uljahn: i didn't participate in the poll because im not a developer :(
eulerscheZahl: not that poll
Uljahn: ah
eulerscheZahl: there was one shown at your main page. just a single question
eulerscheZahl: and 1 answer to choose
geppoz: recently I tried leetcode
BlaiseEbuth: I know that. I was there. I meant that throw numbers and affirm what they are supposed to mean is pretty easy without source sharing.
eulerscheZahl: leetcode has their contests around 3am, not an option for me
geppoz: they transformed every puzzle in a contest by giving scores in CPU times and memory use
eulerscheZahl: long ago there was a site named codeeval
eulerscheZahl: they gave you points for solving a problem. but reduced it for extra time and memory consumption so you could impossibly get the max score
eulerscheZahl: they are no longer in business
eulerscheZahl: i don't even miss them
BlaiseEbuth: Anyway, is this poll method relevant ? I know that a lot of regular users (including me) never (or nearly) go on the Home page. And all the users who come only in contest period have probably not seen that poll either...
eulerscheZahl: it's relevant in a way that CG plans their next steps baseds on it
eulerscheZahl: is the poll representative? that's the actual question
eulerscheZahl: if you have 166k participants, lots of them probably visit the site once or twice and never come back
eulerscheZahl: don't even know about bot programming or contests
BlaiseEbuth: Yes, but quantity is important, right ? :smirk:
eulerscheZahl: we don't even know if every user got to see the poll. or just with registration > 1 month or whatever
eulerscheZahl: sampling matters
jacek: there should be some ranking threshold for the pool
jacek: poll even
eulerscheZahl: and i'm in rage again, thank you
jacek: relax, its caturday
eulerscheZahl: and tomorrow is funday
eulerscheZahl: as we are all here for fun
zhoubou: And day after that is meanday
Illedan: Why rage?
BlaiseEbuth: You're welcome. I care about maintain the flame.
eulerscheZahl: and after meanday finally toadsday
zhoubou: Haha :D
reCurse: Just let it go
eulerscheZahl: i miss the old days
jacek: like fryday?
eulerscheZahl: it's not even about my game
eulerscheZahl: topcoder has more contests. sadly optims and no bot programming but can be fun too
BlaiseEbuth: reCurse, we're waiting for your self made platform.
reCurse: Where's that meme with the skeleton waiting
eulerscheZahl: yeah, leaving the sinking ship before it flies into the mountain
reCurse: To be fair nothing changed except our hopes
reCurse: Site remains the same for the time being
eulerscheZahl: know we have official confirmation for what we observed already
reCurse: Sure. But in practice nothing changes yet.
reCurse: Still have the 2 contests a year, still have the multis, still have us.
reCurse: Sure we had hopes for something we'd like more that got dashed
reCurse: But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water
BlaiseEbuth: Keep the water
Illedan: haha
Westicles: They'll figure something out. Like one button that signs up for all contests for a year
darkhorse64: CG also says they have a project to have smaller scale contests centered around optims, multis
darkhorse64: They want the site the site to be more lively between contests.
eulerscheZahl: that reads like a sentence authored by AutomatonNN :P
AutomatonNN: eulerscheZahl is there a way to see a lot of contests for that in the college in the discord
eulerscheZahl: :/
BlaiseEbuth: :D
zhoubou: :rofl:
darkhorse64: At least he agrees with me
darkhorse64: To my mind, the poll is misleading.
reCurse: It doesn't really matter whether we agree with their methods.
darkhorse64: Sad but true
reCurse: At least there was transparency
Illedan: ^
eulerscheZahl: :point_up:
jacek: reCurse 2p still has advantage?
reCurse: No, I misread the statement lol
reCurse: Thought you could capture forward
eulerscheZahl: :D
jacek: w00t?
Illedan: lol
reCurse: That apparently results in a massive p2 advantage easily explained by zugzwang
reCurse: Well, easily explained when you watch the games anyway
darkhorse64: and .... restart training
eulerscheZahl: sorry to say but that's a ceg-style mistake
jrke: did you mean cegprakash-style?
eulerscheZahl: yes
reCurse: You never make those?
eulerscheZahl: of course i do
reCurse: :P
jacek: like in onitama. i was confued how cards work for 2nd player
jrke: everyone makes those mistakes but ceg tells his mistake in public
eulerscheZahl: they confused me too when writing the engine
reCurse: So me telling my mistake in public makes me ceg?
jacek: cegnn
Illedan: If you ask about it tomorrow it does
reCurse: ?
eulerscheZahl: boy or girl?
Illedan: I mean ceg would keep asking :P I guess you just fixed it..
eulerscheZahl: now i'm totally confused, lets start again
eulerscheZahl: hi Illedan
jrke: hi euler
Illedan: hi
Illedan: :D
reCurse: moin
zhoubou: gm
jrke: if starting from beginning - i just born
eulerscheZahl: i'd like to order a bottle of french fries please
jacek: french? arent fries from belgia
darkhorse64: all that is good is french
jrke: who is the president of US AutomationNN
zhoubou: AutomatonNN even
eulerscheZahl: let's talk about tab completion
AutomatonNN: if you want to be the best reading in the project in the referee and it makes it hot to take this on
jrke: who is the president of US AutomatonNN
AutomatonNN: feels like a better word
zhoubou: AutomatonNN The president of USA is
AutomatonNN: if everyone is just a new avatar
reCurse: No spam please
zhoubou: Oops, sorry
zhoubou: Just thought the NN might have a good answer for that one
zhoubou: Seems it's hopeless lol
jrke: lol - https://www.codingame.com/replay/522362618
reCurse: Is it just me that gets a weird optical illusion looking at those replays
reCurse: It's annoying to look at
eulerscheZahl: i have the illusion too
jrke: did you mean black dots on yellow circles ?
reCurse: Yeah
reCurse: How did it get shipped like that
eulerscheZahl: it's a feature
jrke: those are scientific illusions 3 years back i learned that from one magic book(birthday gift)
jacek: blame those who approved it
DomiKo: jrke lol
AI_says_hi: Wait jrke didn't you recently beat MSmits? now this... :D
jrke: that was a rare game
jacek: rarity eh
Illedan: I'll try to solve Blockout now, fyi euler
Illedan: That game looks very good :O
jacek: is it out yet?
Illedan: https://www.codingame.com/ide/demo/862009d303ad01e86e3f0537f622e3764fe182
struct: euler did you try to change lightning a bit?
struct: So it doesnt reflect so much on pieces?
struct: I managed to do it on Kleth or w/e the name was
struct: *Khet
jacek: first sentence sounded like automaton :o
eulerscheZahl: hi struct
no, i didn't test different lighting
Illedan: [y,x,z] looks wrong
Illedan: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
eulerscheZahl: :P
Cleimek: Howdy
Illedan: https://www.codingame.com/replay/522384373
Illedan: :tada:
eulerscheZahl: Oups
An error occurred (#UNAUTHORIZED): "You are not authorised to view replay 522384373".
Illedan: :(
eulerscheZahl: blockout?
Illedan: yeah
eulerscheZahl: which one did you pass? :D
Illedan: First one -.-
eulerscheZahl: that's to help you understand the game, coord system and so on. there's not even a validator for it
eulerscheZahl: so congrats, you understood the setup :)
Illedan: Best score 14%
Illedan: ...
Illedan: grr
struct: const ambientLight = new THREE.AmbientLight( 0xffffff );
scene.add( ambientLight );
eulerscheZahl: https://prnt.sc/wvzu9y
MSmits: struct just use the lightswitch
eulerscheZahl: can try soon struct
Illedan: Thanks euler. That screenshot is really helpfull
eulerscheZahl: replying to Illedan's contribution comment first
eulerscheZahl: that screenshot could be from any puzzle
Illedan: haha
Illedan: didn't even solve this yourself :D
eulerscheZahl: I always have a 100% solution when I put it up for approval
Illedan: 150 rounds on Tetris :O
Illedan: Getting there
eulerscheZahl: frames?
Illedan: 177
Illedan: I count myself
Illedan: Wondered if it was wrong
eulerscheZahl: ah, so you considered the removing likes = extra frame :)
eulerscheZahl: lines*
Illedan: nope
Illedan: Didn't think about what caused it :D
Illedan: Just accepted I had 200 rounds of input
eulerscheZahl: was easier for me to animate that way
dbdr: it's VIP time on the chat ;)
Illedan: hi
eulerscheZahl: and here comes the head of VIP
dbdr: :P
eulerscheZahl: talking about my cat, afk..
dbdr: Very Important Pet?
Illedan: LOL
Illedan: eulerscheZahl if I drop far outside the grid it still gets dropped :D
Illedan: Good thing I can zoom out to find my piece
Illedan: it even falls down :joy:
dbdr: are you makiing evil Tetris Illedan?
Astrobytes: oh you've returned dbdr!
dbdr: \o Astrobytes
Astrobytes: We were wondering where you were, nice to see you back
eulerscheZahl: Illedan i drop it on purpose. easier to show you what went wrong than just "fix it" especially if it's just a bit outside
struct: euler
struct: https://i.imgur.com/vdCOzus.png
struct: shouldnt left one drop?
Illedan: True, just looked funny
eulerscheZahl: why struct?
Illedan: Did you ever play tetris struct?
struct: ah right
struct: I thought it was like stc
dbdr: Astrobytes: thanks! I tool a long winter holidays break :)
eulerscheZahl: the main open question: do you want the next tile as input too?
dbdr: https://medium.com/@amoghhgoma/beatris-an-evil-tetris-ai-88fee6b068
eulerscheZahl: the original game does not give it and I have a solution that works with current tile only
eulerscheZahl: but to rely a little less on heuristics it would surely help
Illedan: Easier without the next one :P
Illedan: Else you would have to search double
eulerscheZahl: squared
Illedan: mhm
eulerscheZahl: i've tried that evil tetris
eulerscheZahl: not sure anymore if i got a single line :D
eulerscheZahl: also struct did you change the colors in that screenshot already?
struct: yes I removed some stuff
eulerscheZahl: you dared to read my mess?
Illedan: I want a smaller Tetris testcase as the first one I think
struct: yeah, now I was trying to fix the invisble sides
struct: that sometimes happen when moving camera
Illedan: I have a bug and only the tetris one is easy to debug easy enough
eulerscheZahl: smaller tetris?
eulerscheZahl: smaller board?
Illedan: Yeah for a testcase only
Illedan: to debug with printing
eulerscheZahl: hmm, how to add this properly?
eulerscheZahl: i don't want a testcase that's harder than the validators
eulerscheZahl: and a smaller board will be harder
Illedan: hmm
eulerscheZahl: apropos Tetris: Jonas Neubauer died :(
jacek: evil 2048 - can tiles spawn so badly that perfect player wont achieve 2048?
eulerscheZahl: someone even suggested a 2048 multiplayer game
eulerscheZahl: you play on your own board and also spawn on the opponent board
eulerscheZahl: but i think we won't get it in the CG constraints
Illedan: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
jacek: https://aj-r.github.io/Evil-2048/
Illedan: damn bug
eulerscheZahl: so, testing with struct lightning now. removes the complete 3D illusion
Illedan: 71 % -.-
eulerscheZahl: getting closer
struct: Also I removed one line from material
struct: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/088fa02d-5c1d-47e6-bada-42a9dfc20a3e
struct: Dont know which one
struct: cant remember
eulerscheZahl: https://prnt.sc/ww4zjf
tell me what to do about this
Illedan: :scream:
struct: I have no idea, before I thought the problem was the camera being to close
struct: but its not
eulerscheZahl: did you have similar problems with your game?
Illedan: 6x6x6 is damn hard -.-
struct: planeMesh.frustumCulled = false;
struct: no euler
struct: But I did not make much progress on my game
Illedan: Win a new one, lose another :D
Illedan: Anyone got more of them easy fully square pieces?
Illedan: Will finish later. Now pizza time
Illedan: bye
eulerscheZahl: oh nice
jacek: pizza. a circle, divided into triangles, comes in a square
Knee-Gears: hey euler
eulerscheZahl: hi Knee-Gears
TBali: tetris next item visibility - just a crazy idea: at each turn in output you can 'ask' for next item visibility (if you opted in, it will come as part of next turn input )
but it costs you somescore deduction...
TBali: so you only opt in if you are in trouble
TBali: ... not sure if that can work, just an idea
struct: ok, I give up, I tried depthTest: false
struct: it fixes, it but also creates another bug
eulerscheZahl: tbali it's a puzzle, not an optim
eulerscheZahl: no score, just green or red
eulerscheZahl: and an optional preview would make it more complicated with questionable gain IMO
reCurse: 3d is hard
eulerscheZahl: i even fail to place and rotate the camera how I want to
struct: use axis helper euler
struct: axeshelper*
eulerscheZahl: yeah, google corrected that typo already
eulerscheZahl: but definitely not today anymore
eulerscheZahl: past 8pm already
Astrobytes: Telling a German to use the 'axis helper' eh struct :P
eulerscheZahl: :D
Astrobytes: sorry :D
eulerscheZahl: that would have helped but the advice is 80 years too late
Astrobytes: hahaha
eulerscheZahl: but better that way, terrible ideology lost the war
Astrobytes: Indeed.
BlaiseEbuth: Hmm. I check the Godwin point achievment for this day on #world.
Astrobytes: hah!
Heiwu: hi all
BlaiseEbuth: o/
Illedan: \o
eulerscheZahl: ~o~
eulerscheZahl: oh right, you don't see the wave form in ~
Illedan: :checkmark:
Illedan: euler
BlaiseEbuth: I see it
BlaiseEbuth: fix your font
Illedan: I see it?
dbf: ~o~ ?
eulerscheZahl: because you know how to install a computer properly BlaiseEbuth
BlaiseEbuth: The wave of ~ Illedan
eulerscheZahl: most complain that ~ and - look the same for them
Illedan: Ah, I see the wave
Illedan: Ok, Blockout done. Now to eat the pizza :D
dbf: I see it only in message window, not in message list :)
eulerscheZahl: it's already cold now
Illedan: I put it in the oven earlier
eulerscheZahl: monster
Illedan: I have to get it before it burns
Illedan: bye
BlaiseEbuth: Free, the pizza ?
Illedan: Sure, just come here
Illedan: Pizza for everyone
eulerscheZahl: oh, he was baking it
eulerscheZahl: somehow i thought he bought pizze, got it home while hot. then kept coding to finish the puzzle :D
dbf: cool, home-made pizza
dbf: I only use delivery-service for it :)
eulerscheZahl: i pick it up myself
eulerscheZahl: so pizza is mostly a meal for summer for me
eulerscheZahl: manga girl is streaming again
BlaiseEbuth: Yeah !
jacek: hololive?
Uljahn: with touhou background
BlaiseEbuth: touhou :scream:
reCurse: Clashes really attract a unique base
Uljahn: and konosuba ava, jeez
jacek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoSs9-NDP3E
Uljahn: promoting the rabbit hole :relieved:
YurkovAS: men face in chrome browser at top right
dbf: eulerscheZahl , just noticed the change in your company in profile - is it a real org?
BlaiseEbuth: Of course !
BlaiseEbuth: :turtle:
Astrobytes: wth is that stream. That music...
eulerscheZahl: still at Siemens
eulerscheZahl: just to express how much i value company leaderboards
jacek: hmm there should pony stream
dbf: https://clip2net.com/clip/m572140/ba4d1-clip-92kb.jpg
Astrobytes: Turtle Siemen
Astrobytes: s
Astrobytes: (sorry :grin: )
eulerscheZahl: https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/1603846D:IN
setting tshirt in case you failed to win one in the contest
eulerscheZahl: selling*
Uljahn: Automaton2000: tortoise
Automaton2000: you should be a better choice
zhoubou: Gah. I'm on verge to give up my quest for 100% :(
zhoubou: https://www.codingame.com/replay/522405359
zhoubou: Free beer for bug hunters
BlaiseEbuth: Yeah !
zhoubou: There we go :)
jacek: -3vel
BlaiseEbuth: You can get 100% by just staying next to one human.
zhoubou: Good point
BlaiseEbuth: Gimme my beer
zhoubou: You didn't find a bug though :)
BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
zhoubou: :rofl:
Astrobytes: :beer:
BlaiseEbuth: :beers:
jacek: no cider though
MSmits: I have a weird bug
MSmits: my bot crashes when i access the 800th character in a string which is 1300 or so chars long
MSmits: when i turn optimizations off, it doesnt crash
MSmits: gotta love this weird c++ :poop:
Revoxs: javaftw
reCurse: Gonna bet it's your weird c++
MSmits: likely
reCurse: It's a shame d&b games are played until the end
MSmits: when would you suggest they end?
reCurse: As soon as you get 25 points
MSmits: ahh yeah I guess thats better. That's always going to be like 70-80% in though
MSmits: (almost always)
MSmits: you do save some calctime that way
MSmits: though... a good bot will stop calculating once it is solved, which it should be halfway through the game
reCurse: Hmm now that I think about it...
reCurse: I'm dumb
reCurse: I can just play random moves when 25 points is reached
MSmits: sure
MSmits: are you doing a serious try at D&B? And is this a NN?
reCurse: Just curious how well it works with a direct port
MSmits: This is a pretty weird game. I'm sure you can use a NN for some parts of it, but it requires some mathy stuff from ply 40 and up. Even if that part can be done by NN, it seems to me that's very wasteful
MSmits: akin to using a NN to simulate XOR operation
reCurse: Depends on your perspective
reCurse: What if I don't need to do the mathy stuff?
MSmits: it seems to me that the more you use the NN to replace functions of your bot, the more complex your NN is
kovi: wow, recurse owned bt
reCurse: :innocent:
kovi: nn's are scary
MSmits: grats reCurse
reCurse: At this point I can easily deploy it to any board game I think
kovi: i will only play complex heuristic games so far
kovi: from now on i mean
MSmits: reCurse is the way you do a NN similar to alpha zero, like the way Robo does it? Or is your way different and maybe more effective within CG limits?
reCurse: :zipper_mouth:
MSmits: well I'm not asking for detals :P
VizGhar: How exactly you should use NN? Haven't done one before. You create NN, train it offline, and use trained values?
MSmits: details
VizGhar: I'm quite dumb with it
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: thats what right VizGhar
MSmits: -what
reCurse: For all I know maybe I can use my framework for spring contest
MSmits: you mean next spring contest or the pacman from last time?
reCurse: next
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: check with Thibault if they will let you. Not sure how much the "code has to be readable" rule conflicts with this
MSmits: probably np
reCurse: shrug
VizGhar: I need to build one from ground up... hate that abstractions looking at the python's tensorflow
kovi: (no that it make any difference, as i was not involved in mcts/opening finetunes either)
MSmits: kovi, many complex games can still be searched
MSmits: like xmas rush... pretty complex, but you can still write a search
Astrobytes: Nice uh, 'breakthrough' in Breakthrough reCurse. That was bloody quick!
reCurse: Yeah I wasted more time with my bugs than actual training lol
Astrobytes: You gonna try all the board games with it now?
reCurse: Maybe
reCurse: Trying d&b
Astrobytes: Interesting choice
reCurse: Had to restart since I realized I don't need to play past 25 points
MSmits: Remi said on his twitter, or maybe it was facebook, that NN's don't work there. Seems a strong statement, but it's probably a huge challenge
Astrobytes: Well, they said that about the Unspeakable Tic Tac Toe game
reCurse: If not I'll move on lol
reCurse: No I said that
reCurse: I was wrong
Astrobytes: Sure someone else did too
MSmits: yeah, its not at all clear why nn's wouldnt work in uttt. I see no reason
Astrobytes: Perhaps I'm mistaken
reCurse: They do work
MSmits: i know
reCurse: It's #1 if you don't take into account cg's stupid ranking system
MSmits: but i never doubted it could, i just wasnt sure about the codesize limit
struct: How well will it do in yavalath?
reCurse: Random games fuzzes the top just like csb
struct: Will it face same problems as robo?
MSmits: struct it will be fine in yavalath, but it's not gonna beat a book
struct: ah I see
struct: So same problem
reCurse: I'd rather test the book theory with othello tbh
reCurse: Easier to implement too
MSmits: yeah
Astrobytes: You need something different for Y right, you need to use a hexagonal cnn iir Robo correctly
MSmits: if it doesnt take too much time, you should try
reCurse: Othello is super easy
MSmits: but you'll just play 10 draws per submit vs me
reCurse: Hex sucks
reCurse: Can always do a honor pledge and remove books :P
MSmits: if i remove book i'm 5th or so in othello
MSmits: there are stronger bots
MSmits: dbdr alone, plays nearly perfeclt
MSmits: he had a few lines of play that were uncounterable, i can only draw them
MSmits: it will be fun to see if you can just beat everyone without needing a book, thats cool also
reCurse: What would be so special about d&b anyway?
MSmits: well the game completely changes character halfway through
MSmits: it becomes a graph basically
MSmits: of chains and loops
MSmits: and you can solve this with a bunch of mathematical rules
Astrobytes: Thinking about it, that may not be an issue NN-wise
MSmits: it doesnt have to be, no
MSmits: but if you make the game simpler, it will be easier to train
Astrobytes: Definitely interested to see the results
MSmits: one way to make it simpler is to take that part out of the equation
MSmits: if you dont, you got a game with a huge amount of branching
AI_says_hi: which game is d&b? :nerd:
MSmits: dots and boxes
AI_says_hi: oh thanks
reCurse: So you mean have that solver part of the search?
MSmits: there are basically 3 phases
MSmits: from ply 55-60 there is a point where there are no more safe places to put lines
MSmits: this is phase III
MSmits: you can solve this
MSmits: my solver does this almost always within 1 ms
MSmits: before this you have 20 plies or so in which you can do some fancy stuff with nimstring calculus
MSmits: to try and gain control
MSmits: math helps here, maybe NN can take care of this
MSmits: the first 35-40 plies are a complete mystery to every bot on the leaderboard currently
MSmits: my bot just plays randomly
reCurse: How hard is it to code phase 2 and 3 legit?
Astrobytes: Pretty sure it will eliminate the need for the nimstring analysis - but not 100% sure how well it will do
MSmits: personally, I found it the hardest I have ever coded for CG =/ But i may have went overboard with phase 3
MSmits: gone
MSmits: i'm the only one with an exact score calculator for it
MSmits: doubt thats necessary
reCurse: Intriguing
Astrobytes: (I have no D&B bot, I just read a bunch of papers and listened to Smits Sermons)
MSmits: the first part of the game, the random part is mostly random because both players use the same lines basically
MSmits: there are no p1 lines and p2 lines
MSmits: other board games have two different colors usually
Astrobytes: Miklla's conversation was interesting
MSmits: so the only variable with a given gamestate is whose turn it is
reCurse: Indeed, that was easy though
reCurse: It seems to me to be extremely pattern intensive
reCurse: I'm expecting to wipe it off so in reality I'll probably fail miserably
MSmits: yes, but how do you manipulate a board so that you will be able to benefit at the end if you dont know whose turn it is going to be when the chains and loops are going to be filled in
MSmits: basically your NN needs to manipulate the board to make sure its not your turn to open a chain at the end
MSmits: that the main characteristic of a nim game, whose turn it is at the end, loses
MSmits: (the end meaning, the start of the endgame)
MSmits: it just seems hard for a NN. But as long as it's better than random, it's a win :)
reCurse: Training is slow though...
reCurse: Long games
MSmits: oh you're currently training one?
reCurse: Yeah
MSmits: you already made sure the sim is correct and all that?
reCurse: Umm
reCurse: Maybe? :P
Astrobytes: Is it worth breaking it down into stages?
reCurse: I almost enjoy the failure stories
reCurse: So I'm asking for it
reCurse: I read the code multiple times and tried a random game a few times
MSmits: I'm pretty sure it would be good to at least put some restrictions to your NN. Remove moves that are mathematically provably bad
MSmits: but that would require diving into the literature. Not sure if you like that
reCurse: Part of the experiment is how much effort you need
MSmits: ah ok
reCurse: And no I don't expect to enjoy d&b to go with theory
reCurse: Breakthrough is fun though
MSmits: I didn't either at first, but I got into it
MSmits: I wish breakthrough had more theory
MSmits: then I wouldn't fail so much at writing an eval
MSmits: it's annoying when you like a game a lot and then suck at it :P
MSmits: reCurse do you think that if NN's become the norm, people will distinguish themselves by better combining the NN with domain specific knowledge?
MSmits: for example, your oware bot would be stronger if you had a generated endgame book
MSmits: mine generates a 9 seed book in 500 ms
reCurse: I think domain specific is inevitable until we get stupid amounts of compute
MSmits: then you could train the bot to specialize in the 48-10 seed domain and ignore anything after 10
reCurse: Sure, makes sense
MSmits: If it were just NN and nothing else, it would make me sad. There has to be more to it than that
reCurse: I've gotten to the point where I'm much more interested in the generalizable stuff though
reCurse: I don't have the lofty goals of applying it to complex real-life stuff, I just have weird hobbies
MSmits: we all do
reCurse: Is there a no-brainer bot to skip the wood 2
MSmits: lol... I actually solved wood 2. Then I didnt even promote
reCurse: Nice
Illedan: No, you can't 100 % win wood 2. Wood 2 sucks
MSmits: because my bot knew it would always lose as p1
AlgoRhythmus: which challenge r u at?
reCurse: So... what then lol
MSmits: sensible heuristic > solved game
MSmits: do it like this
MSmits: take a box if you can
MSmits: avoid placing 3 lines on the same box
MSmits: this might be enough
reCurse: Hmm
MSmits: those two rules
Illedan: Yeah, should be enough
MSmits: Heiwu we're talking about different multiplayer arena's
MSmits: Dots and boxes and other games on and off
reCurse: Is there a P1 advantage?
AlgoRhythmus: ah, ok
MSmits: for wood 2 it's either solved 1-3 or 3-1 i forget
reCurse: For the real thing
MSmits: it's probabyl solved +2 or -2 so yeah one side will have advantage, but considering every bot plays random for 40 plies, it's negligible
MSmits: +1 or -1 i should say
reCurse: So in practice, your experience says it doesn't matter?
MSmits: it should not
reCurse: Ok thanks
MSmits: but there's a bunch of deterministic bots on the leaderboard, who knows what that will do
Illedan: Depends on how good you are at making those Areas in your own favor, as the research articles are stating
MSmits: one placed line can turn everything around though Illedan. It's possible to steer the game in your favor in the last 10-20 plies before the endgame, but in the 30 before that it's impossible to tell
MSmits: miklla is better because he is able to manipulate just a few turns before my bot
MSmits: making sure he has control
MSmits: but his bot plays the lowest index move for 38 plies
MSmits: which is pretty much like random
MSmits: except it's random where everyone knows what you're doing :P
reCurse: I wonder if you can make those first moves so decisive the rest won't even matter
MSmits: the game is not really like that. I mean sure, if you had it solved, every ply would have these decisive moves, but patterns just dont really emerge in the early game
MSmits: say you had a bunch of chains that filled 3 quarters of the field. Just 1 line on the quarter thats left, will completely turn the game around
MSmits: if you compare it to chess, there are plenty of ways to look at the board and judge the strength of either players' position
MSmits: but in D&B there is no player position. There is just the board and whomevers turn it is.
MSmits: brb
reCurse: Hmm
MSmits: what you could do is let your NN give 2 possible outputs
MSmits: either the one whose turn it is has control at the endgame
MSmits: or that person does not
MSmits: having control almost always means you win
MSmits: even if not, you can voluntarily give away control at any time
reCurse: Not well versed in terminology
reCurse: Having control?
MSmits: if you watch a typical game, you see players being forced to open a chain at some point
MSmits: giving away boxes
MSmits: the player that is forced to open a chain does *not* have control
MSmits: which is bad
MSmits: basically if a chain is, say 6 boxes long
MSmits: the other player can take 4 boxes
MSmits: then split the last 2
MSmits: i mean cap off the last 2
MSmits: and force the other player to take those 2 and then have to open another chain
therealbeef: ilke a 'tempo' in chess?
MSmits: the other guy keeps having to open chains
MSmits: it's more than just tempo, it's everything
Galant10f88: Hi (test)
MSmits: if you enter the endgame not in control the game is basically over, unless you have a big lead in score
reCurse: I see
MSmits: reCurse there is also a lot to do with short chains and such. I can't really give a full tutorial on D&B endgames, there's a lot of rules
MSmits: but let me know if you have any question
MSmits: say why something happened in a replay
MSmits: i can probably explain
reCurse: Sure, though I think my stay will be a short one
MSmits: allright. I'll await your othello bot :)
Rddevelop: surely php is an horrible choice in clash...
reCurse: After d&b maybe
Rddevelop: short mode is guarenteed lose
MSmits: you can still get points if you're 2nd or 3rd
MSmits: but just learn python... or ruby, but python is a more useful skill probably
Rddevelop: im forth currently, the python guys ya know
MSmits: ah
MSmits: i learned python by solving 30 easy puzzles and then doing some projects
MSmits: you wont be an excellent golfer then, but it's a good start
Rddevelop: do you like python?
Rddevelop: people say php sucks anyway
MSmits: yeah, to code small programs
MSmits: i wouldnt code anything big in it, because it has its problems
MSmits: for big projects, use C#
MSmits: or torture yourself with c++, thats fine too :P
Rddevelop: hahah
Astrobytes: PHP has its uses, on here I think people mostly see using PHP as a challenge to themselves. There are a few dedicated PHPers
MSmits: yeah patrick
Rddevelop: im on web development so i like php with laravel
reCurse: A challenge to mental faculties?
Astrobytes: and T Bali
Astrobytes: Essentially reCurse yep, I think they both admit that too :)
Rddevelop: java and javascript are cool too but pyton i never bothered tbh
Rddevelop: even to look into it
Astrobytes: PHP + Laravel != trying to code in PHP on here :P
MSmits: i think python is nicer than JS and C# is nicer than java
MSmits: of course js and java are more widely used..
Rddevelop: those are good for me because i can code on node knowing js and also back-end with java is a posibility
MSmits: dont have much js knowledge, but i base this judgement of the horror stories of some RL friends
Astrobytes: It's not a friendly language.
Astrobytes: IMO
AlgoRhythmus: rockstar is the very best language ever! ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avJHaC3C2U&t=2797s
Rddevelop: its true that with js and php, them not being robustly typed makes them ugly
Rddevelop: but typescript is good and php 8.0 is doing good
Astrobytes: lol Heiwu
Rddevelop: but i better learn pyton for clash anyway
AlgoRhythmus: typescript might also be my next candidate after feeling good in python.
Astrobytes: Well, choose your tools when you need them.
Astrobytes: Don't need to like them if you have to use them. Some just make your life harder than it should be.
Rddevelop: yeah
Rddevelop: clash is fun, i like coding game overwall
Rddevelop: so i dont mind learning it just to have more fun
AlgoRhythmus: i also learning python since about 6 weeks, is really fun.
Rddevelop: one reason i have not done it yet maybe its because i dont want to confuse a language function with another so i try not to learn much languages and just stick with 2
Rddevelop: but when i see pyton code in clash, it looks so random and different that i think i wouldnt confuse anything with that
AlgoRhythmus: i'd give it a try and see if it differs enough.
Astrobytes: If you're competent in a language and understand what you're doing (ie. not just syntax) then python should be easy enough.
Rddevelop: yeah
Astrobytes: I still can't understand how it went from 'used by some people on linux for things' to world-conquering must-learn amazeballs language.
reCurse: That's python bothering your brain with that?
AlgoRhythmus: i'd guess data science / "big data" and python notebooks do play a part in that game. and of course its easynes (is that even an english word?)
reCurse: Javascript should have that attention imo
AlgoRhythmus: typescript maybe
AlgoRhythmus: "public static void"... XD
MSmits: this rockstar video is awesome, thanks Heiwu
Astrobytes: Yes I can also say the same about js reCurse. I cannot believe that it is what it is today.
AlgoRhythmus: you're welcome. the comments are right: "This guy is a great orator/storyteller/and probably DnD master"
Astrobytes: that's why MSmits loves it, he's looking for a new DM
Rddevelop: js is everythere tbh
BananaInSpace: its 5:20PM and i studied 4 hours today im kinda proud :D
MSmits: nah i have a good dm, multiple even :P
Astrobytes: I hated js in 2000/2001 and I hate it 100 times more now.
Astrobytes: lol MSmits
AlgoRhythmus: yeah this site is damn addicting - until its daily slow-AF-time in about 1h
therealbeef: history is littered with inferior products becoming the standard
AlgoRhythmus: whatsapp :D
Astrobytes: MSmits: ever use roll20?
MSmits: dont think so
MSmits: oh
MSmits: i dont have a smartphone remember
MSmits: i am sure the other guys i play with have used i
MSmits: it
Astrobytes: You need a smartphone for it?
MSmits: i dont know i just googled it and it was an app
Astrobytes: https://roll20.net/
MSmits: ahh I see
Astrobytes: I guess they have an app
MSmits: looks cool
MSmits: I will have to suggest it to them
MSmits: is this wizards of the coast sanctioned?
Astrobytes: Yeah a few friends of mine said it was actually pretty good. Not free but worth it. YMMV as always.
MSmits: they crack down hard on copyright stuff
BananaInSpace: anyone here have steam? ( gaming app)
Astrobytes: Yeah, might be tricky to sneak games in there.
ala89: oof
Astrobytes: Oh just re-read your comment. It's all above board yeah.
Astrobytes: (excuse the pun)
MSmits: ah ok
Astrobytes: that's where the payment part comes in
MSmits: I see
Astrobytes: Anyway, I'm out for tonight. Gn all
AlgoRhythmus: gn8
MSmits: gn
reCurse: gn
Illedan: gn
BananaInSpace: gn
DoublePony_a31a: hi
DoublePony_a31a: hii
BananaInSpace: hey
DoublePony_a31a: hi
DoublePony_a31a: hi
AlgoRhythmus: hi#
Salted: hi
26: why wait so long to start there's 7 people
26: god these problems are ass
AliSsM: Hi
Salted: What the heck happens around this time that makes the website so slow?
therealbeef: updates of ranking i guess
AlgoRhythmus: idkm but its daily
therealbeef: std::sort ;-)
struct: I dont even know if its worth to report the bug again
therealbeef: it might not be a bug
therealbeef: maybe right now is the moment when least people use the site
struct: Well they did say it happened when they updated db
AlgoRhythmus: i hope they do have any kind of monitoring that alerts them about increased errors about this time
Salted: Well it is 1am there so I assume no one even knows.
struct: Well i reported it before
struct: In December
Salted: but it's prime time in the states so I'm guessing they just set it up to run when it's nighttime wherever the servers are.
mihaipriboi: it s 2 am in romania and i still play...
therealbeef: it's primetime in east coast USA, right? not west coast
Salted: 4:23 west coast
therealbeef: it might really be the quietest moment globally
Pietrek: 2 am in Poland :D
Pietrek: but coders-of-the-caribbean is so fun :)
MACKEYTH: Hello all. I need some help finding something.
MACKEYTH: Is there a list of the command identifiers available in Monaco? I want to change some keybindgs
Severed: PYTHON: do we have access to numpy or spicy here?
Salted: numpy for sure
Severed: awesome, thanks
Salted: https://www.codingame.com/faq
Severed: sweet, has both. TYPOd scipy as spicy lol
Salted: Can we fix the character count issues with the codegolf stuff? It doesn't count unicode characters as part of the solution. So the codegolf guys can just use unicode characters to reduce their codesize.
Salted: Is that true? Are there special chars that codingame can't count?
struct: it counts chars not bytes
Salted: So that's how someone is able to solve codegolf challenges in C with only 36 characters?
struct: its probably just a system call
struct: you can run bash code in multiple languages
Westicles: I don't it. You can't call bash from C with only 5 characters overhead
Westicles: *doubt
Westicles: Probably submits random answers a thousand times
Salted: Hmm, would be cool if the validation answers changed once in a while.
Salted: But also I guess I feel better. I was thinking there's no way I'll ever get to the point I could do a real solution in 36 chars
Westicles: Yep, they should put it on the home page... golf solutions are all sort of cheating, and those guys beating you in CoC are all bots
Westicles: Or in a FAQ I guess
andrecab: fat combo
andrecab: https://www.codingame.com/replay/522468391
struct: almost https://www.codingame.com/replay/520550378
andrecab: holy!
reCurse: Just what kind of sadistic twisted mind made the wood 2 league in d&b
struct: reminds me of uttt wood league
reCurse: Worse somehow
reCurse: I guess it's the bot equivalent of a crappy clash that somehow got accepted
Almost404: man i really need to learn python3 doing clash in java is heartbreaking
