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Default avatar.png Almost404: man i really need to learn python3 doing clash in java is heartbreaking

Enknable: learn Ruby if you want to win clash

Default avatar.png Almost404: i just dont want to smallest code and they have 57 chars and i have 445

Default avatar.png Almost404: might bad tho

Enknable: almost guaranteed a 30% wr tho.

Enknable: give or take losing to another Ruby user in golf

Default avatar.png siddharthdeo99: from where i can master basics in python

jacek: happy Caturday

eulerscheZahl: hi

reCurse: moin

Default avatar.png NA08:

jacek: reCurse i see you fixed your bugs

jacek: does p2 has advantage still?

eulerscheZahl: the perfect submit :o

jacek: used to be me :(

eulerscheZahl: may I remind reCurse that he wanted to stay away from community games (mainly because of the low match count)

TBali: shall I fight the borrower today, or shall I go swiftly?

TBali: Life choices...

Default avatar.png Takkashi: moin

TBali: I like type safety, but Rust takes it to an interstellar level...

Westicles: Ran out of problems to solve in PHP?

mzbear: rust is super tedious to write, but perhaps i'm just not fluent enough with it. however, every time i've ported a piece of my c++ code to rust, the compilation has initially failed because it has exposed crazy buggy corner cases that existed in my c++ code, and i really like that. i'm just completely unable to prototype anything in rust, i have to write it in c++ first :D

tekki: :) mzbear

Westicles: I judge languages by the quality of their heredoc. Rust is one of the better ones

TBali: well, I am not completely against Rust, I see the advantage of being very strict. But for simple puzzles it can be a pain. Example all the different integer types are REALLY different

TBali: A small example, I encountered now: Don't Panic puzzle

TBali: vector can be indexed only by usize

TBali: fine, floor number is typicaly usize.

TBali: However sometimes input can be -1 so it is read as i32

TBali: now I have to make a specific edge case - out of 27 languages only 2 neeeded this.

TBali: But most likely there are several much more elegant solutions in Rust for this particular problem.

mzbear: the puzzles aren't a very good case for evaluating a language, though, because the puzzles encourage writing code that is allowed to catastrophically fail with incorrect input

mzbear: if you had to do proper error checking in every language, it would even things out

TBali: I agree, it was just a firendly banter on my side. Rust brought something new on the language table, and beginner level struggles might pay off on the long run.

dbdr: first message I see after a while is about Rust :)

mzbear: i never got past the beginner level in rust, because it's too tedious to write code in it :/

TBali: I raised the bar quite high - convert 30 short puzzle solutions... :-)

TBali: It takes the most time in comparison with other languages

TBali: (Except Bash and perl)

dbdr: you get most of the annoyances in doing such puzzles

dbdr: vs little benefits

dbdr: so I imagine it can be unappealing

TBali: Actually, I once gave up after 15, then started to read now things make much more sense

TBali: but still a beginner

TBali: put a 4h Rust fundamentals video on Pluralsight on the near todo list :-)

dbdr: yeah, the book is highly recommendd

dbdr: most languages you can learn from practice + google + API

dbdr: rust has new concepts, if you ignore that you are going to suffer

TBali: stackoverflow is my friend - except when it is not

mzbear: this was also "fun" read:

dbdr: stackoverflow is problem oriented, not concept oriented, most of the time

TBali: Well, first few puzzles I did without even having heard of the borrower concept... it was like a monkey trying to do Shakespear

TBali: mzbear - thanks I saw that, but put aside for later. I am at more basic stuff

TBali: Where does the name come from? I have been to Rust in Austria at Fertő-tó several times...

eulerscheZahl: dbdr is back \o/

dbdr: xmas is over ;)

TBali: maybe by an auto trigger to "Rust" :-)

eulerscheZahl: so we can either have you or xmas?

eulerscheZahl: i choose you

dbdr: let me imagine rust was a constant topic for the whole of 2021 ;)

dbdr: eulerscheZahl is sweet this year :o


eulerscheZahl: nah, I just don't care about xmas :P

dbdr: I started a Futurama rewatch :)

dbdr: evil Santa and all

eulerscheZahl: cool, one of my favorite TV shows

jacek: really?

eulerscheZahl: yeah, great show

eulerscheZahl: you missed the confirmation that community contests are dead :(

dbdr: hum, looks like I got closer to _Royale by not doing anything maybe I should continue on that path :D

eulerscheZahl: i blame royale for being inactive too

eulerscheZahl: your ideas made me climb at CotR

eulerscheZahl: you told smits to run a beam search. he passed that on to me

dbdr: yeah, probably he hasn't done many of the new multis that slowly give more CPs

eulerscheZahl: or quickly if PotW

dbdr: aha, cool, didn't remember talking to you about cotr, that xplains it

dbdr: oh, sub 3k, nice eulerscheZahl

dbdr: eu<tab> does not work :(

eulerscheZahl: still for 2 or 3 my handcrafted solution is better than my solver

jacek: use AutomatonNN for that

AutomatonNN: and what is that link?

eulerscheZahl: but i found some nice paths with beam search. one with a loop of length > 20

dbdr: only 2 or 3? :no_mouth:

eulerscheZahl: and I don't support nested loops :(

eulerscheZahl: and i could even improve my score if i would copy the replays from the overview page. some of those are better than what I have

Westicles: why mess with multis when you can delve into the exciting world of Horn-satisfiability?

eulerscheZahl: sounds like a puzzle from a Cat?


eulerscheZahl: no, not even from him

BlaiseEbuth: :metal:

eulerscheZahl: seems like I did a rage-quit there

Westicles: Anytime anyone says your contrib is inappropriate for CG, this link should be kept handy

dbdr: isn't there a very hard category?

eulerscheZahl: and 3 of your favorite users approved it

dbdr: I know JBM was one of them :D

dbdr: *knew

eulerscheZahl: he now got his freecell approved. without having a solver on his own

eulerscheZahl: i tried a bit but it will be hard to solve FreeCell within 1s I think

BlaiseEbuth: eulerscheZahl -> the approvers identity is precisely why the puzzle is inappropriate :smirk:

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Lol I just got my own contribution in a clash! :smile:

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Soled it in like 44 seconds

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: *Solved

eulerscheZahl: i stopped clashing when I got a contribution that I approved 2h before

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Haha

eulerscheZahl: didn't feel right to me

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: I like CoC more than other things, but Bot Programming is an close second to it

Westicles: BlaiseEbuth, nah it just is a very specialized problem you would have to research a bunch or already know the answer. That's the exact reason people give for rejecting contribs all the time

eulerscheZahl: I think those unwritten requirements drifted over time

eulerscheZahl: it was approved 2.5 years ago. we don't know if it would still pass today

BlaiseEbuth: I'm joking. Don't even know this puzzle.

eulerscheZahl: I never tried to solve. I know about the theoretical background from lectures

BlaiseEbuth: What is appropriate for CG is not clearly defined anyway... :smirk:

eulerscheZahl: there are some loose guidelines. It got a little better

eulerscheZahl: e.g. we now know that close duplicates are allowed for CoC

BlaiseEbuth: :expressionless:

eulerscheZahl: doesn't reflect my personal opinion so I stopped moderating those. that simple

Westicles: Well to be fair, it is difficult to know what is out there already on COC

eulerscheZahl: getting too many to review them anyways these days

eulerscheZahl: i often pointed out that we have almost exactly that clash already and linked it creator: oh, i didn't know. and totally understood that there's no need for a 2nd one

eulerscheZahl: the main question: where can I see a list of clashes

BlaiseEbuth: Do you know this tool ?

eulerscheZahl: oh nice. haven't seen that before

BlaiseEbuth: :ok_hand:

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Somebody should make that official

eulerscheZahl: I didn't even know that https works :o

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Just before submitting, they should search if the puzzle is already in the list

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Hey eulerscheZahl, did you create that

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: ?

eulerscheZahl: yes

dbdr: let's see if Skynet 1 -> 2 is trivial

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Oh ok :+1:

BlaiseEbuth: Don't you have configured https yourself ?

eulerscheZahl: no, comes from heroku

eulerscheZahl: i checked the certificate

eulerscheZahl: issued to: *

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Ha Ha, BitWolf did not get how to solve my puzzle :laughing: Which means that another player did not get it

eulerscheZahl: maybe i can configure it to enforce https

BlaiseEbuth: Oh. I did'nt know heroku. Thought it was just a part of your domain.

eulerscheZahl: and now the ghost of that player will forever haunt the CG servers

eulerscheZahl: heroku is free web hosting

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Haha yeah :)

eulerscheZahl: with a database and server for your own code

eulerscheZahl: supports python (django/flask), ruby, php and a few others

eulerscheZahl: the free database is limited to 10k rows. which is why i removed the codejam search recently

eulerscheZahl: had an sqlite file. but that's not persistent

eulerscheZahl: so i switched to postgres (keeps puzzles when I tell the server to update, I don't have to release a new version for that anymore)

eulerscheZahl: and codejam just was too big

eulerscheZahl: oh, the https part is pretty simple :)

BlaiseEbuth: I see. I prefer rent a small vps and do my grub on it, too many limitations and problems with classic hostings...

eulerscheZahl: i see the advantages of a paid server. e.g. stilgart grawls CG every day at the same time

eulerscheZahl: i can't do that easily I think

eulerscheZahl: and after 30min without request the website gets suspended

eulerscheZahl: giving a 10s delay when it's used again and needs to be restarted

BlaiseEbuth: erf

TBali: free lunch arrives with cold soup

eulerscheZahl: but it's free

eulerscheZahl: i'm they guy who eats twice or thrice as much as the average colleague when there is free pizza in the office

eulerscheZahl: updated, forward to HTTPS works

BlaiseEbuth: The taste of free...

eulerscheZahl: no, i'm just a good eater in general

TBali: Well if I had to choose from "free speech" and "free beer" i would go for "free speech" but it is a close call :-)

BlaiseEbuth: :pizza:

TBali: there is no fee pizza in home office

TBali: *free

eulerscheZahl: for beer it's a no brainer for me: speech it is

TBali: what about "free speech" and "free pizza" ?

TBali: fior lifetime

eulerscheZahl: that's a tough one

BlaiseEbuth: free beer

dbdr: euler challenging german stereotypes :+1:

eulerscheZahl: i also don't like German restaurants. Italian or Chinese are much better

dbdr: Italian in Italy are even better :)

TBali: I like Weisswurst but would not eat it too often

TBali: Same with pizza

dbdr: kid, when I was your age, it was possible to travel to other countries

eulerscheZahl: :older_man:

mzbear: servers are ridiculously cheap, though, if you're willing to manage one yourself

TBali: When I was very kid it was NOT possible

TBali: only to DDR

eulerscheZahl: i'm lazy and heroku works fine for me

mzbear: i have some servers from ... 3e/month is pretty good value for a simple linux box

Westicles: Everyone have their French smurf ready for the big contest?

mzbear: there have also occasionally been really good discounts at

dbdr: damn, I managed to break even the testcases that worked :D

eulerscheZahl: does that include a domain or do you need that extra?

TBali: I think I pay 25€ per year for my site

BlaiseEbuth: I am my French smurf

mzbear: no domain at those prices, although i think hezner's web hosting at 2e/month did include one... let me check

TBali: For the contest - if statement is in French then I am doomed

eulerscheZahl: just curious, atm I have to reason to leave heroku

BlaiseEbuth: Use a translator

eulerscheZahl: i've particiapted in a contest where everything was in Russian. statement, whole website

eulerscheZahl: i got along pretty well with translators

mzbear: 10 setup fee, then 2e/month .. for managed web hosting at hetzner, including a domain registration. but they provide no cron jobs for that

eulerscheZahl: 1 or 2 things that I didn't fully understand. but we have a Russian chat here to ask

TBali: The site I am using since 2011 has only Hungarian website :-)

mzbear: hosting a website has gotten ridiculously cheap lately

eulerscheZahl: yeah. even if you want more than just the wordpress

TBali: I have cPanel, 5GB, php, mysql, etc... no php 8 yet though

eulerscheZahl: you and your love for PHP

TBali: actually it is a love and hate reationship

TBali: Internally I am a more "strict type" soul

TBali: but php is getting better in this respect

TBali: I learned php for my hobby site. And cheap hosting does not allow Java or C# backend

TBali: Python was out of view that time for me

eulerscheZahl: i'M pretty sure heroku offers Java

mzbear: i'm running a minecraft server on a 8e/month linux box with 4G RAM and 80G ssd disk, 3 virtual cores from AMD epyc 2.5GHz, but even the 3e box ran it surprisingly well. it's amazing how cheap it is

Westicles: Minecraft? Is that like fortnite?

TBali: minecraft server... thumbsup

eulerscheZahl: Node.js, Ruby, Java, PHP, Python, Go, Scala, Clojure

TBali: Westicles thubmsdown :-)

eulerscheZahl: that's what heroku supports

eulerscheZahl: have fun with Clojure

TBali: My solo puzzle conversion project is enough fun for Clojure

TBali: had to buy new ( keys

TBali: And LISP was a #3 or #4 language in some point of time...

Westicles: LISP was the only language taught when I was an undergrad

TBali: Not even Pascal?

Westicles: nope

TBali: In my undergrad years we had ML, Prolog, Modula2

eulerscheZahl: Pascal was my first language

eulerscheZahl: with an IDE older than myself

TBali: C64 BASIC for me

dbdr: TP IDE was way ahead of its time though

eulerscheZahl: it didn't support a mouse

TBali: Absolutely. It was sci fi

TBali: TP supported mouse but who would use that

TBali: I knew all keyboard shortcuts

eulerscheZahl: maybe i'm just too young to appreciate those tools

dbdr: get off my lawn and go learn vi ;)

eulerscheZahl: not even vim?

TBali: Well it evolved. Currwnt static analysis and linting is amazing

TBali: All info is at fingertip

dbdr: in truth I use nvim, i'm a sucker for modernity :D

TBali: neovim - yeah quite modern stuff

mzbear: Westicles, minecraft has a kind of in-world programmable circuit game mechanic, btw. You can do some quite wonderful things with it, not your average first person game

mzbear: so, not like fortnite :)

TBali: There were some talks about education edition. Did it come out?

TBali: I did not follow in past 2-3 years

mzbear: education edition has been out for some years, yeah, but i haven't tried it

Westicles: wow, surprised so many Microsoft fans here...

TBali: My son showed me what he did with redstone - pretty amazing, logic circuits, yeah

TBali: Mojang fan, not?

mzbear: microsoft bought minecraft quite a while ago, and although they've been hands off mostly, it's kinda changing slowly

mzbear: this year, they'll migrate all minecraft accounts into MSN accounts, for example, and i have some mixed feelings about that

TBali: Just checking It says "start coding" ... just like CG

TBali: Well, paid some really big bucks for it, afaik,

mzbear: 2.5 billion dollars. it's quite amazing how it happened, too

eulerscheZahl: MS bought github too :(

mzbear: Notch was frustrated about the whole EULA situation and tweeted jokingly a question if anyone wants to buy his share of mojang, and microsoft called and made that offer

TBali: LOL

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Factorio is a really game for getting into automation, logic circuits, resource management, etc.

mzbear: it was regarding to whether third party servers were allowed to sell loot boxes, which minecraft EULA had forbidden them to do, and there was massive drama about it which drove Notch crazy

TBali: Factorio - will check, thx

Default avatar.png BLU2403: You're welcome

dbdr: factorio is addictive!

mzbear: oh boy, factorio is another great game for a programmer. i think i have spent a total of 1000 hours in it, i have no idea how much time i wasted before it got on Steam

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Some people have gone as far as creating 3D graphics using logic circuits in Factorio, among other borderline insane things

Default avatar.png BLU2403: LOL

mzbear: well, the programmable lights were really begging for it :P

TBali: 1000 hours.... Then maybe I shouldn't check... :-)

TBali: Knowing myself

mzbear: TBali lol

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Especially when you get into the modding community

BlaiseEbuth: I quitted the game when ms bought it. github is the last ms thing I use, and I don't know until when...

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Then you can program just about anything

Default avatar.png BLU2403: fCPU is a pretty cool mod on Factorio for learning Assembly Language, it's also helpful for simplifying combinator circuits

TBali: I had quite anti-MS sentiment earlier, but now I don't see that much difference between companies

mzbear: I took a 5 year break from minecraft after MS bought it, but somehow i ended up getting back

Westicles: wow, 1000 hours. that's like 3% of your awake adult life

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Yep, that's Factorio :grin:

TBali: Guys, I told you a MILLION times not to exaggarate

organtrail: 1000 hours is 3 percent :( )

organtrail: oh no

dbdr: depends how long you live...


TBali: sorry capslock, not shouting

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Just checked my Steam account: I've clocked 776.8 hours so far.

organtrail: ohh no i have multiple steam accounts :(

Default avatar.png BLU2403: But who cares about circadian rythm anyway

organtrail: multiple games with 1k+ hours :(

TBali: I would be interested in my CG counter status...

TBali: Or not

Default avatar.png BLU2403: ^ For Factorio

eulerscheZahl: I still use some MS stuff. Like VS Code or the .net framework

Stilgart: dbdr is back \o/

eulerscheZahl: it's just their OS that I don't like

eulerscheZahl: 5%er problems :P

BlaiseEbuth: Hate both... ^^

TBali: Every second Windows is fine

TBali: but let's not start a flame war, I am not interested in that

eulerscheZahl: you can't configure Windows to use it as efficiently as I am with i3

Stilgart: eulerscheZahl: is quite light in requests actually

mzbear: Windows 2000 was kinda nice. Afterwards it started going downhill

organtrail: does anybody feel like games in the last 10 years have graphics but less playable ?

eulerscheZahl: but you have it running 24h/day and with a cron job

Default avatar.png BLU2403: There's also MineTest if you want an opensource alternative to MineCraft. The Mesecons and Pipeworks mods can be installed to get something similar to the redstone in MineCraft

organtrail: while games from early 2k were more playable , but worse graphics ?

TBali: 1000 api calls per days no? plus 10 for leaderboard?

eulerscheZahl: + the list of puzzles with upvote stats

eulerscheZahl: and solver count

TBali: organtail - I don't think it cen be generalized

mzbear: organtrail: games these days are indeed about content, not about game mechanics :/

TBali: I thoight onky about the xp leaderboard

BlaiseEbuth: If you look only at the AAA...

Stilgart: 1 per puzzle + 1 per category (to find if there is a new puzzle) + 15 calls to the leaderboard API + around 50 calls for extra players

Stilgart: one webpage calls ~10 API

TBali: which api lists all puzzle ids?

mzbear: smaller developers still explore game mechanics. all the Zachtronics games are quite nice, for example

TBali: I think I did not find a proper one for that

organtrail: i mean ya but how can you not only look at AAA ? indie games kinda like ur sibling trying something first time and ofc u gonna give some extra points

Stilgart: I use findProgressByIds

Stilgart: the one from the practice page I presume

eulerscheZahl: findAllMinimalProgress gives a list

mzbear: TIS-100 was kinda amazing game, for example

Stilgart: I have not so much memories of TIS-100

TBali: Puzzle/findProgressByIds ? but then you need the id of the puzzle already, no?

Stilgart: but it was good enough to make buy space chem :drooling_face:


eulerscheZahl: with a payload of [null]

eulerscheZahl: gives a list of about 500 puzzles

organtrail: are there any android devs in here ?

Stilgart: let me check

TBali: I use Puzzle_findAllMinimalProgress but it is not full list

TBali: Maybe I remeber it wrong

eulerscheZahl: i just inspected now, never tried

TBali: it was several months ago I checked that

TBali: it requres authentication

mzbear: I loved that TIS-100 actually had a reference manual that you had to read. I suppose there's something wrong with my brain :D

organtrail: hmm im about to push my first android game using unity... in app purchases and google cloud save... im starting to get worried about TOS and retaining rights to muh art which will be shipped with the game instead of downloaded on gameload... anybody have tips or links ?

TBali: so I think those you did not solve is excluded - but mybe I am wrong

Stilgart: I indeed also use Puzzle/findAllMinimalProgress

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Shenzhen-I/O is another assembly game from Zachtronics like TIS-100. Pretty interesting Embedded Electronics angle

Stilgart: are you telling me that this one has changed ?

Default avatar.png BLU2403: for the gameplay

Stilgart: BLU2403: Shenzhen IO /o\

Stilgart: this one was really hard :)

Default avatar.png BLU2403: :grinning:

Westicles: Work all day, go home and play games exactly like work

Default avatar.png BLU2403: Yeah, the signal processing puzzles were something else

TBali: Stilgart - no most likely my mistake. It gives indeed a long list

BlaiseEbuth: Nobody said he works all day.. :3

TBali: Have to check if the untouched puzzles are there or not

Stilgart: I have freecell in my list

TBali: But for you it is the same :-)

Stilgart: so yes there are :D

Stilgart: they*

eulerscheZahl: i use an incognito tab to inspect those

eulerscheZahl: not logged in, list of 525 puzzles

TBali: OK, my bad. Thanks for the help

eulerscheZahl: my herokuapp has 436. but there are some official puzzles that I don't index

TBali: Still missing the XP leaderboard API



Stilgart: at some point, make 1 call per player on top 1000 would be better

Westicles: Should be 475 I think

TBali: euler - No, I meant what Stikgart did for top1k

TBali: low cp users are missing from xp leadeboard

eulerscheZahl: he has a way to manually add users. and check their individual profiles

Stilgart: I have added them manually

Stilgart: (well, I have a list + I can call the correct script via ssh)

Stilgart: CodinGamer/findCodingamePointsStatsByHandle

Stilgart: with "[$handle]"

eulerscheZahl: too bad the XP events are private

Stilgart: yep :/


Stilgart: python3 command not found :p

Stilgart: mine is /usr/local/bin/python3-X with X = 7, 8 or 9

Stilgart: s/-/./

TBali: I have a list of handles from CP 1k-10k whou would make it to top1k xp. Mostly added yeah

eulerscheZahl: for me

TBali: Stilgart shall I send, or you have it (sure you can get, just fo convenience)

Stilgart: TBali: I only have a very old one

Stilgart: last time I did this was before OoC

TBali: I did it on dec 30 for the language toplist, send you in private

Stilgart: [CG]all: I want an achievement for "500 puzzles in a language" :p

TBali: 26 to go :-)

TBali: then we need to approve some more contribs for you

TBali: too bad, general quality is not too high

BlaiseEbuth: [CG]all: I want the "Contest creator" achievment in compensation, for I'll never get it otherwise.

Westicles: Tatami tilings looks okay, even if there are already a million tiling puzzles

TBali: I want a "most xp gain / most new sols" per month leaderboard

TBali: absolute value is fine, but that would make it more lively

Westicles: :)

Stilgart: Automaton2000: crate something, like a turtle for instance

Automaton2000: i think i just added

Stilgart: a /ignore feature would be nice too

Stilgart: for the webchat

Default avatar.png zhoubou: I just realized something..

Default avatar.png zhoubou:

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Lol

Stilgart: wow, gg

BlaiseEbuth: /ignore Automaton2020

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Westicles: I really don't get all this Automaton business. Isn't it annoying?

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah it is. dbdr ! Rename it !

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Rename it to "I"

Westicles: So many graph puzzles on here. Do you CS types actually use that kind of thing much at work?

jacek: i dont know if i ever used graph (explicitly) at work

jacek: but i use them in games

eulerscheZahl: they make good boards to walk on

eulerscheZahl: grid-based game => graph

jacek: and there is some :soccer: game that uses graphs

Westicles: Hmmm, well there are like 75 puzzles on graphs. Maybe time to have a moratorium on new ones

jrke: i added few images in resources in multi in my local computer but when i am running its showing its not there i also cleared temp files then also same error?why

Oliversss: answer me Sam!!!

Oliversss: i know you are here

Oliversss: SAAAAM

Oliversss: !!!!!!

Oliversss: WHY U NO ANSWER


eulerscheZahl: jrke where did you save the images? in the assets folder?

jrke: re importing project worked thanks

Default avatar.png D3adshotX25: hellp wporls

eulerscheZahl: you must be using eclipse :P

jacek: eclipse... i felt so nostalgic

Default avatar.png Almost404: ew eclipse

jrke: yup eclipse

Default avatar.png TomiiPomii: use JavaEditor like a Chad

jacek: kree java!

eulerscheZahl: BlueJ

_Lelouch_: PHP sucks

jacek: i bet you didnt write vacuum cleaner in PHP

Default avatar.png codernikhil: C++ is best for competitive programming

Default avatar.png codernikhil: but language doesn't make much difference you should be good in problem solving.

trictrac: eulerscheZahl : do you have a bot for TryAngle Catch ? I am alone :slight_smile:

jacek: what league

eulerscheZahl: yeah, in which league shall I submit?

eulerscheZahl: my bot is pretty basic :(

trictrac: the first one

eulerscheZahl: then I have to remove some commands

trictrac: OK i can push in all the league, you can choose

eulerscheZahl: no

eulerscheZahl: you can only submit in 1 league

jacek: but only one can be active at time

eulerscheZahl: i submitted in the lower now

trictrac: I know but my bot can be pushed in the 4 leagues. So I will go where someone is

eulerscheZahl: lowest for now

trictrac: thank you

eulerscheZahl: and it's 4-3 in your favor already :D

trictrac: Not significant for sure !

jacek: like 5% significatnt

eulerscheZahl: at least I can consistently beat jacek :P

eulerscheZahl: but you don't do more than random, do you?

jacek: i found some random code in C#, trying nw

eulerscheZahl: oh :D

eulerscheZahl: suddenly it looked quite familiar

eulerscheZahl: the movements

eulerscheZahl: your python on the other side was random I suppose

jacek: yes

jacek: i need to use german proxy to access talkchess :(

eulerscheZahl: works fine without proxy for me

jacek: no wai

geppoz: puzzle of the week quite hard this time...

geppoz: last test timeouts like hell :D

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: I agre

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: e

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: The week before the last was too easy

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: All test cases passed, but it was optimization, so the points counted, not the number of correct test cases

geppoz: :thinking:


Astrobytes: think he means 2048

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Yes

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder:

geppoz: I'm talking about ROD CUTTING PROBLEM

Astrobytes: You're supposed to get 100% and then improve your points.

Default avatar.png ChampionCoder: Yes

Astrobytes: I know geppoz

ProgrammerDog: Would it be okay to post my contribution here? I need one more approve.

jacek: 5$

ProgrammerDog: ?

BlaiseEbuth: 4.9$

ProgrammerDog: 4.8$

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Hol' up

Default avatar.png zhoubou: $5.1

eulerscheZahl: $4 and 100 cents

DaMonkey: 1.64$

eulerscheZahl: i know what you did with that number :D

jacek: :?:

eulerscheZahl: 1.64% of the CG community are classified as competitive

jacek: where does that come from

eulerscheZahl: lengthy discord discussion

jacek: oh

BlaiseEbuth: But that's not a real answer... Where does that REALLY come from ?


eulerscheZahl: CG poll with 160k participants

eulerscheZahl: was on your main page at some point

struct: From those 3 options

eulerscheZahl: struct won, my internet was laggy

struct: I would always vote the learn first

eulerscheZahl: i think i voted fun

struct: or that one

eulerscheZahl: because for me competing is fun

struct: yeah

eulerscheZahl: but only a subset of the fun

eulerscheZahl: if they want to get our opinion about contest frequency, then they should ask for that and not try to extrapolate

eulerscheZahl: but i guess they don't really want to know :(

Uljahn: i didn't participate in the poll because im not a developer :(

eulerscheZahl: not that poll

Uljahn: ah

eulerscheZahl: there was one shown at your main page. just a single question

eulerscheZahl: and 1 answer to choose

geppoz: recently I tried leetcode

BlaiseEbuth: I know that. I was there. I meant that throw numbers and affirm what they are supposed to mean is pretty easy without source sharing.

eulerscheZahl: leetcode has their contests around 3am, not an option for me

geppoz: they transformed every puzzle in a contest by giving scores in CPU times and memory use

eulerscheZahl: long ago there was a site named codeeval

eulerscheZahl: they gave you points for solving a problem. but reduced it for extra time and memory consumption so you could impossibly get the max score

eulerscheZahl: they are no longer in business

eulerscheZahl: i don't even miss them

BlaiseEbuth: Anyway, is this poll method relevant ? I know that a lot of regular users (including me) never (or nearly) go on the Home page. And all the users who come only in contest period have probably not seen that poll either...

eulerscheZahl: it's relevant in a way that CG plans their next steps baseds on it

eulerscheZahl: is the poll representative? that's the actual question

eulerscheZahl: if you have 166k participants, lots of them probably visit the site once or twice and never come back

eulerscheZahl: don't even know about bot programming or contests

BlaiseEbuth: Yes, but quantity is important, right ? :smirk:

eulerscheZahl: we don't even know if every user got to see the poll. or just with registration > 1 month or whatever

eulerscheZahl: sampling matters

jacek: there should be some ranking threshold for the pool

jacek: poll even

eulerscheZahl: and i'm in rage again, thank you

jacek: relax, its caturday

eulerscheZahl: and tomorrow is funday

eulerscheZahl: as we are all here for fun

Default avatar.png zhoubou: And day after that is meanday

Illedan: Why rage?

BlaiseEbuth: You're welcome. I care about maintain the flame.

eulerscheZahl: and after meanday finally toadsday

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Haha :D

reCurse: Just let it go

eulerscheZahl: i miss the old days

jacek: like fryday?

eulerscheZahl: it's not even about my game

eulerscheZahl: topcoder has more contests. sadly optims and no bot programming but can be fun too

BlaiseEbuth: reCurse, we're waiting for your self made platform.

reCurse: Where's that meme with the skeleton waiting

eulerscheZahl: yeah, leaving the sinking ship before it flies into the mountain

reCurse: To be fair nothing changed except our hopes

reCurse: Site remains the same for the time being

eulerscheZahl: know we have official confirmation for what we observed already

reCurse: Sure. But in practice nothing changes yet.

reCurse: Still have the 2 contests a year, still have the multis, still have us.

reCurse: Sure we had hopes for something we'd like more that got dashed

reCurse: But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water

BlaiseEbuth: Keep the water

Illedan: haha

Westicles: They'll figure something out. Like one button that signs up for all contests for a year

darkhorse64: CG also says they have a project to have smaller scale contests centered around optims, multis

darkhorse64: They want the site the site to be more lively between contests.

eulerscheZahl: that reads like a sentence authored by AutomatonNN :P

AutomatonNN: eulerscheZahl is there a way to see a lot of contests for that in the college in the discord

eulerscheZahl: :/

BlaiseEbuth: :D

Default avatar.png zhoubou: :rofl:

darkhorse64: At least he agrees with me

darkhorse64: To my mind, the poll is misleading.

reCurse: It doesn't really matter whether we agree with their methods.

darkhorse64: Sad but true

reCurse: At least there was transparency

Illedan: ^

eulerscheZahl: :point_up:

jacek: reCurse 2p still has advantage?

reCurse: No, I misread the statement lol

reCurse: Thought you could capture forward

eulerscheZahl: :D

jacek: w00t?

Illedan: lol

reCurse: That apparently results in a massive p2 advantage easily explained by zugzwang

reCurse: Well, easily explained when you watch the games anyway

darkhorse64: and .... restart training

eulerscheZahl: sorry to say but that's a ceg-style mistake

jrke: did you mean cegprakash-style?

eulerscheZahl: yes

reCurse: You never make those?

eulerscheZahl: of course i do

reCurse: :P

jacek: like in onitama. i was confued how cards work for 2nd player

jrke: everyone makes those mistakes but ceg tells his mistake in public

eulerscheZahl: they confused me too when writing the engine

reCurse: So me telling my mistake in public makes me ceg?

jacek: cegnn

Illedan: If you ask about it tomorrow it does

reCurse: ?

eulerscheZahl: boy or girl?

Illedan: I mean ceg would keep asking :P I guess you just fixed it..

eulerscheZahl: now i'm totally confused, lets start again

eulerscheZahl: hi Illedan

jrke: hi euler

Illedan: hi

Illedan: :D

reCurse: moin

Default avatar.png zhoubou: gm

jrke: if starting from beginning - i just born

eulerscheZahl: i'd like to order a bottle of french fries please

jacek: french? arent fries from belgia

darkhorse64: all that is good is french

jrke: who is the president of US AutomationNN

Default avatar.png zhoubou: AutomatonNN even

eulerscheZahl: let's talk about tab completion

AutomatonNN: if you want to be the best reading in the project in the referee and it makes it hot to take this on

jrke: who is the president of US AutomatonNN

AutomatonNN: feels like a better word

Default avatar.png zhoubou: AutomatonNN The president of USA is

AutomatonNN: if everyone is just a new avatar

reCurse: No spam please

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Oops, sorry

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Just thought the NN might have a good answer for that one

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Seems it's hopeless lol

jrke: lol -

reCurse: Is it just me that gets a weird optical illusion looking at those replays

reCurse: It's annoying to look at

eulerscheZahl: i have the illusion too

jrke: did you mean black dots on yellow circles ?

reCurse: Yeah

reCurse: How did it get shipped like that

eulerscheZahl: it's a feature

jrke: those are scientific illusions 3 years back i learned that from one magic book(birthday gift)

jacek: blame those who approved it

DomiKo: jrke lol

Default avatar.png AI_says_hi: Wait jrke didn't you recently beat MSmits? now this... :D

jrke: that was a rare game

jacek: rarity eh

Illedan: I'll try to solve Blockout now, fyi euler

Illedan: That game looks very good :O

jacek: is it out yet?


struct: euler did you try to change lightning a bit?

struct: So it doesnt reflect so much on pieces?

struct: I managed to do it on Kleth or w/e the name was

struct: *Khet

jacek: first sentence sounded like automaton :o

eulerscheZahl: hi struct no, i didn't test different lighting

Illedan: [y,x,z] looks wrong

Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

eulerscheZahl: :P

Default avatar.png Cleimek: Howdy


Illedan: :tada:

eulerscheZahl: Oups An error occurred (#UNAUTHORIZED): "You are not authorised to view replay 522384373".

Illedan: :(

eulerscheZahl: blockout?

Illedan: yeah

eulerscheZahl: which one did you pass? :D

Illedan: First one -.-

eulerscheZahl: that's to help you understand the game, coord system and so on. there's not even a validator for it

eulerscheZahl: so congrats, you understood the setup :)

Illedan: Best score 14%

Illedan: ...

Illedan: grr

struct: const ambientLight = new THREE.AmbientLight( 0xffffff ); scene.add( ambientLight );


MSmits: struct just use the lightswitch

eulerscheZahl: can try soon struct

Illedan: Thanks euler. That screenshot is really helpfull

eulerscheZahl: replying to Illedan's contribution comment first

eulerscheZahl: that screenshot could be from any puzzle

Illedan: haha

Illedan: didn't even solve this yourself :D

eulerscheZahl: I always have a 100% solution when I put it up for approval

Illedan: 150 rounds on Tetris :O

Illedan: Getting there

eulerscheZahl: frames?

Illedan: 177

Illedan: I count myself

Illedan: Wondered if it was wrong

eulerscheZahl: ah, so you considered the removing likes = extra frame :)

eulerscheZahl: lines*

Illedan: nope

Illedan: Didn't think about what caused it :D

Illedan: Just accepted I had 200 rounds of input

eulerscheZahl: was easier for me to animate that way

dbdr: it's VIP time on the chat ;)

Illedan: hi

eulerscheZahl: and here comes the head of VIP

dbdr: :P

eulerscheZahl: talking about my cat, afk..

dbdr: Very Important Pet?

Illedan: LOL

Illedan: eulerscheZahl if I drop far outside the grid it still gets dropped :D

Illedan: Good thing I can zoom out to find my piece

Illedan: it even falls down :joy:

dbdr: are you makiing evil Tetris Illedan?

Astrobytes: oh you've returned dbdr!

dbdr: \o Astrobytes

Astrobytes: We were wondering where you were, nice to see you back

eulerscheZahl: Illedan i drop it on purpose. easier to show you what went wrong than just "fix it" especially if it's just a bit outside

struct: euler


struct: shouldnt left one drop?

Illedan: True, just looked funny

eulerscheZahl: why struct?

Illedan: Did you ever play tetris struct?

struct: ah right

struct: I thought it was like stc

dbdr: Astrobytes: thanks! I tool a long winter holidays break :)

eulerscheZahl: the main open question: do you want the next tile as input too?


eulerscheZahl: the original game does not give it and I have a solution that works with current tile only

eulerscheZahl: but to rely a little less on heuristics it would surely help

Illedan: Easier without the next one :P

Illedan: Else you would have to search double

eulerscheZahl: squared

Illedan: mhm

eulerscheZahl: i've tried that evil tetris

eulerscheZahl: not sure anymore if i got a single line :D

eulerscheZahl: also struct did you change the colors in that screenshot already?

struct: yes I removed some stuff

eulerscheZahl: you dared to read my mess?

Illedan: I want a smaller Tetris testcase as the first one I think

struct: yeah, now I was trying to fix the invisble sides

struct: that sometimes happen when moving camera

Illedan: I have a bug and only the tetris one is easy to debug easy enough

eulerscheZahl: smaller tetris?

eulerscheZahl: smaller board?

Illedan: Yeah for a testcase only

Illedan: to debug with printing

eulerscheZahl: hmm, how to add this properly?

eulerscheZahl: i don't want a testcase that's harder than the validators

eulerscheZahl: and a smaller board will be harder

Illedan: hmm

eulerscheZahl: apropos Tetris: Jonas Neubauer died :(

jacek: evil 2048 - can tiles spawn so badly that perfect player wont achieve 2048?

eulerscheZahl: someone even suggested a 2048 multiplayer game

eulerscheZahl: you play on your own board and also spawn on the opponent board

eulerscheZahl: but i think we won't get it in the CG constraints

Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Illedan: damn bug

eulerscheZahl: so, testing with struct lightning now. removes the complete 3D illusion

Illedan: 71 % -.-

eulerscheZahl: getting closer

struct: Also I removed one line from material


struct: Dont know which one

struct: cant remember

eulerscheZahl: tell me what to do about this

Illedan: :scream:

struct: I have no idea, before I thought the problem was the camera being to close

struct: but its not

eulerscheZahl: did you have similar problems with your game?

Illedan: 6x6x6 is damn hard -.-

struct: planeMesh.frustumCulled = false;

struct: no euler

struct: But I did not make much progress on my game

Illedan: Win a new one, lose another :D

Illedan: Anyone got more of them easy fully square pieces?

Illedan: Will finish later. Now pizza time

Illedan: bye

eulerscheZahl: oh nice

jacek: pizza. a circle, divided into triangles, comes in a square

Knee-Gears: hey euler

eulerscheZahl: hi Knee-Gears

TBali: tetris next item visibility - just a crazy idea: at each turn in output you can 'ask' for next item visibility (if you opted in, it will come as part of next turn input ) but it costs you somescore deduction...

TBali: so you only opt in if you are in trouble

TBali: ... not sure if that can work, just an idea

struct: ok, I give up, I tried depthTest: false

struct: it fixes, it but also creates another bug

eulerscheZahl: tbali it's a puzzle, not an optim

eulerscheZahl: no score, just green or red

eulerscheZahl: and an optional preview would make it more complicated with questionable gain IMO

reCurse: 3d is hard

eulerscheZahl: i even fail to place and rotate the camera how I want to

struct: use axis helper euler

struct: axeshelper*

eulerscheZahl: yeah, google corrected that typo already

eulerscheZahl: but definitely not today anymore

eulerscheZahl: past 8pm already

Astrobytes: Telling a German to use the 'axis helper' eh struct :P

eulerscheZahl: :D

Astrobytes: sorry :D

eulerscheZahl: that would have helped but the advice is 80 years too late

Astrobytes: hahaha

eulerscheZahl: but better that way, terrible ideology lost the war

Astrobytes: Indeed.

BlaiseEbuth: Hmm. I check the Godwin point achievment for this day on #world.

Astrobytes: hah!

Heiwu: hi all

BlaiseEbuth: o/

Illedan: \o

eulerscheZahl: ~o~

eulerscheZahl: oh right, you don't see the wave form in ~

Illedan: :checkmark:

Illedan: euler

BlaiseEbuth: I see it

BlaiseEbuth: fix your font

Illedan: I see it?

dbf: ~o~ ?

eulerscheZahl: because you know how to install a computer properly BlaiseEbuth

BlaiseEbuth: The wave of ~ Illedan

eulerscheZahl: most complain that ~ and - look the same for them

Illedan: Ah, I see the wave

Illedan: Ok, Blockout done. Now to eat the pizza :D

dbf: I see it only in message window, not in message list :)

eulerscheZahl: it's already cold now

Illedan: I put it in the oven earlier

eulerscheZahl: monster

Illedan: I have to get it before it burns

Illedan: bye

BlaiseEbuth: Free, the pizza ?

Illedan: Sure, just come here

Illedan: Pizza for everyone

eulerscheZahl: oh, he was baking it

eulerscheZahl: somehow i thought he bought pizze, got it home while hot. then kept coding to finish the puzzle :D

dbf: cool, home-made pizza

dbf: I only use delivery-service for it :)

eulerscheZahl: i pick it up myself

eulerscheZahl: so pizza is mostly a meal for summer for me

eulerscheZahl: manga girl is streaming again

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah !

jacek: hololive?

Uljahn: with touhou background

BlaiseEbuth: touhou :scream:

reCurse: Clashes really attract a unique base

Uljahn: and konosuba ava, jeez


Uljahn: promoting the rabbit hole :relieved:

YurkovAS: men face in chrome browser at top right

dbf: eulerscheZahl , just noticed the change in your company in profile - is it a real org?

BlaiseEbuth: Of course !

BlaiseEbuth: :turtle:

Astrobytes: wth is that stream. That music...

eulerscheZahl: still at Siemens

eulerscheZahl: just to express how much i value company leaderboards

jacek: hmm there should pony stream


Astrobytes: Turtle Siemen

Astrobytes: s

Astrobytes: (sorry :grin: )

eulerscheZahl: setting tshirt in case you failed to win one in the contest

eulerscheZahl: selling*

Uljahn: Automaton2000: tortoise

Automaton2000: you should be a better choice

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Gah. I'm on verge to give up my quest for 100% :(

Default avatar.png zhoubou:

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Free beer for bug hunters

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah !

Default avatar.png zhoubou: There we go :)

jacek: -3vel

BlaiseEbuth: You can get 100% by just staying next to one human.

Default avatar.png zhoubou: Good point

BlaiseEbuth: Gimme my beer

Default avatar.png zhoubou: You didn't find a bug though :)

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Default avatar.png zhoubou: :rofl:

Astrobytes: :beer:

BlaiseEbuth: :beers:

jacek: no cider though

MSmits: I have a weird bug

MSmits: my bot crashes when i access the 800th character in a string which is 1300 or so chars long

MSmits: when i turn optimizations off, it doesnt crash

MSmits: gotta love this weird c++ :poop:

Default avatar.png Revoxs: javaftw

reCurse: Gonna bet it's your weird c++

MSmits: likely

reCurse: It's a shame d&b games are played until the end

MSmits: when would you suggest they end?

reCurse: As soon as you get 25 points

MSmits: ahh yeah I guess thats better. That's always going to be like 70-80% in though

MSmits: (almost always)

MSmits: you do save some calctime that way

MSmits: though... a good bot will stop calculating once it is solved, which it should be halfway through the game

reCurse: Hmm now that I think about it...

reCurse: I'm dumb

reCurse: I can just play random moves when 25 points is reached

MSmits: sure

MSmits: are you doing a serious try at D&B? And is this a NN?

reCurse: Just curious how well it works with a direct port

MSmits: This is a pretty weird game. I'm sure you can use a NN for some parts of it, but it requires some mathy stuff from ply 40 and up. Even if that part can be done by NN, it seems to me that's very wasteful

MSmits: akin to using a NN to simulate XOR operation

reCurse: Depends on your perspective

reCurse: What if I don't need to do the mathy stuff?

MSmits: it seems to me that the more you use the NN to replace functions of your bot, the more complex your NN is

kovi: wow, recurse owned bt

reCurse: :innocent:

kovi: nn's are scary

MSmits: grats reCurse

reCurse: At this point I can easily deploy it to any board game I think

kovi: i will only play complex heuristic games so far

kovi: from now on i mean

MSmits: reCurse is the way you do a NN similar to alpha zero, like the way Robo does it? Or is your way different and maybe more effective within CG limits?

reCurse: :zipper_mouth:

MSmits: well I'm not asking for detals :P

VizGhar: How exactly you should use NN? Haven't done one before. You create NN, train it offline, and use trained values?

MSmits: details

VizGhar: I'm quite dumb with it

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: thats what right VizGhar

MSmits: -what

reCurse: For all I know maybe I can use my framework for spring contest

MSmits: you mean next spring contest or the pacman from last time?

reCurse: next

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: check with Thibault if they will let you. Not sure how much the "code has to be readable" rule conflicts with this

MSmits: probably np

reCurse: shrug

VizGhar: I need to build one from ground up... hate that abstractions looking at the python's tensorflow

kovi: (no that it make any difference, as i was not involved in mcts/opening finetunes either)

MSmits: kovi, many complex games can still be searched

MSmits: like xmas rush... pretty complex, but you can still write a search

Astrobytes: Nice uh, 'breakthrough' in Breakthrough reCurse. That was bloody quick!

reCurse: Yeah I wasted more time with my bugs than actual training lol

Astrobytes: You gonna try all the board games with it now?

reCurse: Maybe

reCurse: Trying d&b

Astrobytes: Interesting choice

reCurse: Had to restart since I realized I don't need to play past 25 points

MSmits: Remi said on his twitter, or maybe it was facebook, that NN's don't work there. Seems a strong statement, but it's probably a huge challenge

Astrobytes: Well, they said that about the Unspeakable Tic Tac Toe game

reCurse: If not I'll move on lol

reCurse: No I said that

reCurse: I was wrong

Astrobytes: Sure someone else did too

MSmits: yeah, its not at all clear why nn's wouldnt work in uttt. I see no reason

Astrobytes: Perhaps I'm mistaken

reCurse: They do work

MSmits: i know

reCurse: It's #1 if you don't take into account cg's stupid ranking system

MSmits: but i never doubted it could, i just wasnt sure about the codesize limit

struct: How well will it do in yavalath?

reCurse: Random games fuzzes the top just like csb

struct: Will it face same problems as robo?

MSmits: struct it will be fine in yavalath, but it's not gonna beat a book

struct: ah I see

struct: So same problem

reCurse: I'd rather test the book theory with othello tbh

reCurse: Easier to implement too

MSmits: yeah

Astrobytes: You need something different for Y right, you need to use a hexagonal cnn iir Robo correctly

MSmits: if it doesnt take too much time, you should try

reCurse: Othello is super easy

MSmits: but you'll just play 10 draws per submit vs me

reCurse: Hex sucks

reCurse: Can always do a honor pledge and remove books :P

MSmits: if i remove book i'm 5th or so in othello

MSmits: there are stronger bots

MSmits: dbdr alone, plays nearly perfeclt

MSmits: he had a few lines of play that were uncounterable, i can only draw them

MSmits: it will be fun to see if you can just beat everyone without needing a book, thats cool also

reCurse: What would be so special about d&b anyway?

MSmits: well the game completely changes character halfway through

MSmits: it becomes a graph basically

MSmits: of chains and loops

MSmits: and you can solve this with a bunch of mathematical rules

Astrobytes: Thinking about it, that may not be an issue NN-wise

MSmits: it doesnt have to be, no

MSmits: but if you make the game simpler, it will be easier to train

Astrobytes: Definitely interested to see the results

MSmits: one way to make it simpler is to take that part out of the equation

MSmits: if you dont, you got a game with a huge amount of branching

Default avatar.png AI_says_hi: which game is d&b? :nerd:

MSmits: dots and boxes

Default avatar.png AI_says_hi: oh thanks

reCurse: So you mean have that solver part of the search?

MSmits: there are basically 3 phases

MSmits: from ply 55-60 there is a point where there are no more safe places to put lines

MSmits: this is phase III

MSmits: you can solve this

MSmits: my solver does this almost always within 1 ms

MSmits: before this you have 20 plies or so in which you can do some fancy stuff with nimstring calculus

MSmits: to try and gain control

MSmits: math helps here, maybe NN can take care of this

MSmits: the first 35-40 plies are a complete mystery to every bot on the leaderboard currently

MSmits: my bot just plays randomly

reCurse: How hard is it to code phase 2 and 3 legit?

Astrobytes: Pretty sure it will eliminate the need for the nimstring analysis - but not 100% sure how well it will do

MSmits: personally, I found it the hardest I have ever coded for CG =/ But i may have went overboard with phase 3

MSmits: gone

MSmits: i'm the only one with an exact score calculator for it

MSmits: doubt thats necessary

reCurse: Intriguing

Astrobytes: (I have no D&B bot, I just read a bunch of papers and listened to Smits Sermons)

MSmits: the first part of the game, the random part is mostly random because both players use the same lines basically

MSmits: there are no p1 lines and p2 lines

MSmits: other board games have two different colors usually

Astrobytes: Miklla's conversation was interesting

MSmits: so the only variable with a given gamestate is whose turn it is

reCurse: Indeed, that was easy though

reCurse: It seems to me to be extremely pattern intensive

reCurse: I'm expecting to wipe it off so in reality I'll probably fail miserably

MSmits: yes, but how do you manipulate a board so that you will be able to benefit at the end if you dont know whose turn it is going to be when the chains and loops are going to be filled in

MSmits: basically your NN needs to manipulate the board to make sure its not your turn to open a chain at the end

MSmits: that the main characteristic of a nim game, whose turn it is at the end, loses

MSmits: (the end meaning, the start of the endgame)

MSmits: it just seems hard for a NN. But as long as it's better than random, it's a win :)

reCurse: Training is slow though...

reCurse: Long games

MSmits: oh you're currently training one?

reCurse: Yeah

MSmits: you already made sure the sim is correct and all that?

reCurse: Umm

reCurse: Maybe? :P

Astrobytes: Is it worth breaking it down into stages?

reCurse: I almost enjoy the failure stories

reCurse: So I'm asking for it

reCurse: I read the code multiple times and tried a random game a few times

MSmits: I'm pretty sure it would be good to at least put some restrictions to your NN. Remove moves that are mathematically provably bad

MSmits: but that would require diving into the literature. Not sure if you like that

reCurse: Part of the experiment is how much effort you need

MSmits: ah ok

reCurse: And no I don't expect to enjoy d&b to go with theory

reCurse: Breakthrough is fun though

MSmits: I didn't either at first, but I got into it

MSmits: I wish breakthrough had more theory

MSmits: then I wouldn't fail so much at writing an eval

MSmits: it's annoying when you like a game a lot and then suck at it :P

MSmits: reCurse do you think that if NN's become the norm, people will distinguish themselves by better combining the NN with domain specific knowledge?

MSmits: for example, your oware bot would be stronger if you had a generated endgame book

MSmits: mine generates a 9 seed book in 500 ms

reCurse: I think domain specific is inevitable until we get stupid amounts of compute

MSmits: then you could train the bot to specialize in the 48-10 seed domain and ignore anything after 10

reCurse: Sure, makes sense

MSmits: If it were just NN and nothing else, it would make me sad. There has to be more to it than that

reCurse: I've gotten to the point where I'm much more interested in the generalizable stuff though

reCurse: I don't have the lofty goals of applying it to complex real-life stuff, I just have weird hobbies

MSmits: we all do

reCurse: Is there a no-brainer bot to skip the wood 2

MSmits: lol... I actually solved wood 2. Then I didnt even promote

reCurse: Nice

Illedan: No, you can't 100 % win wood 2. Wood 2 sucks

MSmits: because my bot knew it would always lose as p1

AlgoRhythmus: which challenge r u at?

reCurse: So... what then lol

MSmits: sensible heuristic > solved game

MSmits: do it like this

MSmits: take a box if you can

MSmits: avoid placing 3 lines on the same box

MSmits: this might be enough

reCurse: Hmm

MSmits: those two rules

Illedan: Yeah, should be enough

MSmits: Heiwu we're talking about different multiplayer arena's

MSmits: Dots and boxes and other games on and off

reCurse: Is there a P1 advantage?

AlgoRhythmus: ah, ok

MSmits: for wood 2 it's either solved 1-3 or 3-1 i forget

reCurse: For the real thing

MSmits: it's probabyl solved +2 or -2 so yeah one side will have advantage, but considering every bot plays random for 40 plies, it's negligible

MSmits: +1 or -1 i should say

reCurse: So in practice, your experience says it doesn't matter?

MSmits: it should not

reCurse: Ok thanks

MSmits: but there's a bunch of deterministic bots on the leaderboard, who knows what that will do

Illedan: Depends on how good you are at making those Areas in your own favor, as the research articles are stating

MSmits: one placed line can turn everything around though Illedan. It's possible to steer the game in your favor in the last 10-20 plies before the endgame, but in the 30 before that it's impossible to tell

MSmits: miklla is better because he is able to manipulate just a few turns before my bot

MSmits: making sure he has control

MSmits: but his bot plays the lowest index move for 38 plies

MSmits: which is pretty much like random

MSmits: except it's random where everyone knows what you're doing :P

reCurse: I wonder if you can make those first moves so decisive the rest won't even matter

MSmits: the game is not really like that. I mean sure, if you had it solved, every ply would have these decisive moves, but patterns just dont really emerge in the early game

MSmits: say you had a bunch of chains that filled 3 quarters of the field. Just 1 line on the quarter thats left, will completely turn the game around

MSmits: if you compare it to chess, there are plenty of ways to look at the board and judge the strength of either players' position

MSmits: but in D&B there is no player position. There is just the board and whomevers turn it is.

MSmits: brb

reCurse: Hmm

MSmits: what you could do is let your NN give 2 possible outputs

MSmits: either the one whose turn it is has control at the endgame

MSmits: or that person does not

MSmits: having control almost always means you win

MSmits: even if not, you can voluntarily give away control at any time

reCurse: Not well versed in terminology

reCurse: Having control?

MSmits: if you watch a typical game, you see players being forced to open a chain at some point

MSmits: giving away boxes

MSmits: the player that is forced to open a chain does *not* have control

MSmits: which is bad

MSmits: basically if a chain is, say 6 boxes long

MSmits: the other player can take 4 boxes

MSmits: then split the last 2

MSmits: i mean cap off the last 2

MSmits: and force the other player to take those 2 and then have to open another chain

therealbeef: ilke a 'tempo' in chess?

MSmits: the other guy keeps having to open chains

MSmits: it's more than just tempo, it's everything

Default avatar.png Galant10f88: Hi (test)

MSmits: if you enter the endgame not in control the game is basically over, unless you have a big lead in score

reCurse: I see

MSmits: reCurse there is also a lot to do with short chains and such. I can't really give a full tutorial on D&B endgames, there's a lot of rules

MSmits: but let me know if you have any question

MSmits: say why something happened in a replay

MSmits: i can probably explain

reCurse: Sure, though I think my stay will be a short one

MSmits: allright. I'll await your othello bot :)

Rddevelop: surely php is an horrible choice in clash...

reCurse: After d&b maybe

Rddevelop: short mode is guarenteed lose

MSmits: you can still get points if you're 2nd or 3rd

MSmits: but just learn python... or ruby, but python is a more useful skill probably

Rddevelop: im forth currently, the python guys ya know

MSmits: ah

MSmits: i learned python by solving 30 easy puzzles and then doing some projects

MSmits: you wont be an excellent golfer then, but it's a good start

Rddevelop: do you like python?

Rddevelop: people say php sucks anyway

MSmits: yeah, to code small programs

MSmits: i wouldnt code anything big in it, because it has its problems

MSmits: for big projects, use C#

MSmits: or torture yourself with c++, thats fine too :P

Rddevelop: hahah

Astrobytes: PHP has its uses, on here I think people mostly see using PHP as a challenge to themselves. There are a few dedicated PHPers

MSmits: yeah patrick

Rddevelop: im on web development so i like php with laravel

reCurse: A challenge to mental faculties?

Astrobytes: and T Bali

Astrobytes: Essentially reCurse yep, I think they both admit that too :)

Rddevelop: java and javascript are cool too but pyton i never bothered tbh

Rddevelop: even to look into it

Astrobytes: PHP + Laravel != trying to code in PHP on here :P

MSmits: i think python is nicer than JS and C# is nicer than java

MSmits: of course js and java are more widely used..

Rddevelop: those are good for me because i can code on node knowing js and also back-end with java is a posibility

MSmits: dont have much js knowledge, but i base this judgement of the horror stories of some RL friends

Astrobytes: It's not a friendly language.

Astrobytes: IMO

AlgoRhythmus: rockstar is the very best language ever! ;D

Rddevelop: its true that with js and php, them not being robustly typed makes them ugly

Rddevelop: but typescript is good and php 8.0 is doing good

Astrobytes: lol Heiwu

Rddevelop: but i better learn pyton for clash anyway

AlgoRhythmus: typescript might also be my next candidate after feeling good in python.

Astrobytes: Well, choose your tools when you need them.

Astrobytes: Don't need to like them if you have to use them. Some just make your life harder than it should be.

Rddevelop: yeah

Rddevelop: clash is fun, i like coding game overwall

Rddevelop: so i dont mind learning it just to have more fun

AlgoRhythmus: i also learning python since about 6 weeks, is really fun.

Rddevelop: one reason i have not done it yet maybe its because i dont want to confuse a language function with another so i try not to learn much languages and just stick with 2

Rddevelop: but when i see pyton code in clash, it looks so random and different that i think i wouldnt confuse anything with that

AlgoRhythmus: i'd give it a try and see if it differs enough.

Astrobytes: If you're competent in a language and understand what you're doing (ie. not just syntax) then python should be easy enough.

Rddevelop: yeah

Astrobytes: I still can't understand how it went from 'used by some people on linux for things' to world-conquering must-learn amazeballs language.

reCurse: That's python bothering your brain with that?

AlgoRhythmus: i'd guess data science / "big data" and python notebooks do play a part in that game. and of course its easynes (is that even an english word?)

reCurse: Javascript should have that attention imo

AlgoRhythmus: typescript maybe

AlgoRhythmus: "public static void"... XD

MSmits: this rockstar video is awesome, thanks Heiwu

Astrobytes: Yes I can also say the same about js reCurse. I cannot believe that it is what it is today.

AlgoRhythmus: you're welcome. the comments are right: "This guy is a great orator/storyteller/and probably DnD master"

Astrobytes: that's why MSmits loves it, he's looking for a new DM

Rddevelop: js is everythere tbh

BananaInSpace: its 5:20PM and i studied 4 hours today im kinda proud :D

MSmits: nah i have a good dm, multiple even :P

Astrobytes: I hated js in 2000/2001 and I hate it 100 times more now.

Astrobytes: lol MSmits

AlgoRhythmus: yeah this site is damn addicting - until its daily slow-AF-time in about 1h

therealbeef: history is littered with inferior products becoming the standard

AlgoRhythmus: whatsapp :D

Astrobytes: MSmits: ever use roll20?

MSmits: dont think so

MSmits: oh

MSmits: i dont have a smartphone remember

MSmits: i am sure the other guys i play with have used i

MSmits: it

Astrobytes: You need a smartphone for it?

MSmits: i dont know i just googled it and it was an app


MSmits: ahh I see

Astrobytes: I guess they have an app

MSmits: looks cool

MSmits: I will have to suggest it to them

MSmits: is this wizards of the coast sanctioned?

Astrobytes: Yeah a few friends of mine said it was actually pretty good. Not free but worth it. YMMV as always.

MSmits: they crack down hard on copyright stuff

BananaInSpace: anyone here have steam? ( gaming app)

Astrobytes: Yeah, might be tricky to sneak games in there.

Default avatar.png ala89: oof

Astrobytes: Oh just re-read your comment. It's all above board yeah.

Astrobytes: (excuse the pun)

MSmits: ah ok

Astrobytes: that's where the payment part comes in

MSmits: I see

Astrobytes: Anyway, I'm out for tonight. Gn all

AlgoRhythmus: gn8

MSmits: gn

reCurse: gn

Illedan: gn

BananaInSpace: gn

Default avatar.png DoublePony_a31a: hi

Default avatar.png DoublePony_a31a: hii

BananaInSpace: hey

Default avatar.png DoublePony_a31a: hi

Default avatar.png DoublePony_a31a: hi

AlgoRhythmus: hi#

Salted: hi

Default avatar.png 26: why wait so long to start there's 7 people

Default avatar.png 26: god these problems are ass

Default avatar.png AliSsM: Hi

Salted: What the heck happens around this time that makes the website so slow?

therealbeef: updates of ranking i guess

AlgoRhythmus: idkm but its daily

therealbeef: std::sort ;-)

struct: I dont even know if its worth to report the bug again

therealbeef: it might not be a bug

therealbeef: maybe right now is the moment when least people use the site

struct: Well they did say it happened when they updated db

AlgoRhythmus: i hope they do have any kind of monitoring that alerts them about increased errors about this time

Salted: Well it is 1am there so I assume no one even knows.

struct: Well i reported it before

struct: In December

Salted: but it's prime time in the states so I'm guessing they just set it up to run when it's nighttime wherever the servers are.

mihaipriboi: it s 2 am in romania and i still play...

therealbeef: it's primetime in east coast USA, right? not west coast

Salted: 4:23 west coast

therealbeef: it might really be the quietest moment globally

Default avatar.png Pietrek: 2 am in Poland :D

Default avatar.png Pietrek: but coders-of-the-caribbean is so fun :)

MACKEYTH: Hello all. I need some help finding something.

MACKEYTH: Is there a list of the command identifiers available in Monaco? I want to change some keybindgs

Severed: PYTHON: do we have access to numpy or spicy here?

Salted: numpy for sure

Severed: awesome, thanks


Severed: sweet, has both. TYPOd scipy as spicy lol

Salted: Can we fix the character count issues with the codegolf stuff? It doesn't count unicode characters as part of the solution. So the codegolf guys can just use unicode characters to reduce their codesize.

Salted: Is that true? Are there special chars that codingame can't count?

struct: it counts chars not bytes

Salted: So that's how someone is able to solve codegolf challenges in C with only 36 characters?

struct: its probably just a system call

struct: you can run bash code in multiple languages

Westicles: I don't it. You can't call bash from C with only 5 characters overhead

Westicles: *doubt

Westicles: Probably submits random answers a thousand times

Salted: Hmm, would be cool if the validation answers changed once in a while.

Salted: But also I guess I feel better. I was thinking there's no way I'll ever get to the point I could do a real solution in 36 chars

Westicles: Yep, they should put it on the home page... golf solutions are all sort of cheating, and those guys beating you in CoC are all bots

Westicles: Or in a FAQ I guess

Default avatar.png andrecab: fat combo

Default avatar.png andrecab:

struct: almost

Default avatar.png andrecab: holy!

reCurse: Just what kind of sadistic twisted mind made the wood 2 league in d&b

struct: reminds me of uttt wood league

reCurse: Worse somehow

reCurse: I guess it's the bot equivalent of a crappy clash that somehow got accepted