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struct: DomiKo I dont really see any bug on that replay

mzbear: i'm so fed up with MCTS after Blocking that i'm writing UTTT bot super casually lol ... just heuristics to see which moves lead to immediate guaranteed loss/win

mzbear: turn timer says 0.025ms per turn on average ... so refreshing :D

mzbear: it would be funny to have alternative bot boards with ridiculously low time limit ... like 5ms per turn

struct: mzbear the minimum time sdk allows is 50ms

struct: per turn

struct: Also some languages would struggle quite a bit with 5ms

mzbear: i suppose the platform can't reliably handle managing games that fast, either. any lag would ruin it

mzbear: oh no, there's no way i can defeat silver UTTT boss with simple heuristics ... do i really have to make a search function :cry:

struct: Hard to do well on it without a search

mzbear: i kinda wanna reach gold without a search. just slapping MCTS on this doesn't really feel like a worthy challenge

struct: Well you can try minimax

struct: but it performs worse

mzbear: that's also a type of search

struct: a didnt read 1st part properly

struct: Well you can try teccles heuristic

mzbear: or maybe i should say ... i dont want to build a forward going move tree

struct: Teccles heuristic is to force opponent

struct: to play on the same board you just played

struct: Some people use it on the start of the game

Westicles: Isn't UTTT the ultimate "fastest mcts wins" contest?

mzbear: hmmm... well, that's an interesting way to get some moves on the board, but it isn't exactly intuitive whether it's a good idea in the long run. could be exploitable

mzbear: westicles, i refuse to believe that!

struct: Quite a few people on legend use it

mzbear: i'm sure it would perform quite well, yes

Westicles: Bitboards required

mzbear: i'm already doing that

mzbear: i even got some useless BMI2 usage going on :D

struct: There is quite a few stuff you can do with MCTS

struct: Im sure its just not fastest wins

mzbear: mcts would require quite a bit of tuning, there's no way i'm doing that by hand in the web editor ever again

mzbear: my heuristic bot still loses to silver boss every time, but at least it manages to fight back a little. average move time 0.03ms

mzbear: but that made it play weaker against everyone else in silver. heh. i'll need to think a bit before writing code

mzbear: oh wow, i had typoed a hex constant in one of my BMI2 optimizations, fixed it and suddenly my bot plays much better

mzbear: it wasn't capable of reading the board correctly ... which boggles the mind, because it still got into silver league

jacek: bmi2 in uttt? w00t?

mzbear: it's due to the board representation i'm using

jacek: also, teccless heuristic is good opening. i added it and managed from top 20 to top 10. at least its good for player 1.

mzbear: for the global board, instead of separate occupation maps, i use 0 for open, 1 for full/blocked, and then 2/3 for player states. so i can test against 0 to see the subboard is still open

mzbear: which necessiates _pext_u32(mask,0x15555)&_pext_u32(mask,0x2AAAA) if i want one player's pieces extracted from that

jacek: :be

jacek: :thumbsup:

jacek: do you have other heuristics?

Default avatar.png LightFury01: hey guys

mzbear: this thing is ONLY heuristics :D

RaunakCodes2625: HI

RaunakCodes2625: WHICH LANGUAGE

jacek: oh

RaunakCodes2625: I AM IN PYTHON

RaunakCodes2625: U?

Default avatar.png LightFury01: how you guys doing

Default avatar.png LightFury01: :)

RaunakCodes2625: :)

Default avatar.png LightFury01: me c#

RaunakCodes2625: OO

Vaibhav0705: ik

Vaibhav0705: r

mzbear: i maintain a table of decisive board information, such as which subboards contain immediate local win for each player, and which subboard wins lead to immediate global win for each player

Default avatar.png LightFury01: nada

mzbear: and with help of those, i can calculate if a move guarantees loss within 2 moves

mzbear: or if entering a subboard guarantees a loss

Default avatar.png LightFury01: :)

mzbear: ohwell, since i just fixed a major bug, time to throw this into arena and see if i can get out of silver league without search algorithm ;D

Astrobytes: A heuristics-based UTTT bot eh? I don't know whether that's insanity, bravery, or a healthy dose of both! :D

mzbear: if i get into gold league, i gotta start doing better heuristics

mzbear: right now i'm only doing fairly absolute calculations. but they only take 0.024ms per turn

Astrobytes: I'm guessing you'll definitely need some kind of search if you get out of silver

mzbear: yea, this plays kinda passively really

Astrobytes: Your board representation seems nice and fast, shouldn't be any trouble to chuck a MCTS in there

Westicles: Should be easy to tune in the web editor!

Astrobytes: :D

jacek: neat, MSmits finally submitted oware bot

mzbear: the core of the bot is iterating through all valid moves, picking one with reservoir sampling, and skipping moves which are guaranteed to lose. after that it runs another two loops to try to disrupt enemy and to grab subboard wins for itself if it wants them

Astrobytes: Oh so that's what he's been quietly doing jacek

mzbear: i'm a bit upset that an earlier buggy version of my bot actually got fairly high in silver league

jacek: and without the bug its worse?

mzbear: yep. except that i seem to win against the boss 100% of the time ... if only i could get to fight it

Astrobytes: Standard CG bot writing issue right there.

Astrobytes: Boss is just the gatekeeper, it's the rabid hordes below it you gotta worry about

mzbear: oh, right, i dont set a random seed so my bot is fully deterministic ... and so is the boss

mzbear: earlier randomness was happening because i was reading uninitialized memory :D

Astrobytes: hahaha. Well that's one way to do rng I guess

Default avatar.png niStee: :D

mzbear: oh great, here we go, now it's losing against the boss every time again ... it was just winning with that one seed ;_;

mzbear: yeah, this bot sucks. i just really REALLY dont want to write another MCTS right after Blocking

Astrobytes: Hey, you picked UTTT :D

mzbear: i didn't read the full rules of the game first, i thought it was going to be more chill ... but that thing about being sent to a specific subgrid .... argh

Westicles: I tried to warn him :)

Westicles: You could try the optims intstead, they are more fun than the bots

Astrobytes: Or make a game ;)

jacek: :notebook: :soccer:

mzbear: making a game might actually be fun, yes

Gilad-Gur-Andelman: I think there should be an extra prize for someone who wins shortest mode in JavaScript where the others write in Python

MSmits: hey jacek

MSmits: did you see this:


MSmits: making progress, but not there yet, your bot is so hard to beat :)

Astrobytes: morning MSmits :wave:

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: hey

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: Ho

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: Anybody?

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: Dead Chat

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: F

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: fef

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R:

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: OOO noice

Astrobytes: You want kicked?

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: nah

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: im just testing

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: lol

Astrobytes: Well stop it then.

Default avatar.png 5PID3RH7CK3R: kk

jacek: 50%? :scream:

mzbear: oh yeah, sending enemy to play in subboards that cannot contribute to victory anymore seems quite effective in UTTT silver league, wins against the boss half of the time too. but only got rank 7, mmh mmh mmh

MSmits: morning Astrobytes

MSmits: jacek it is like 70 with you as p2, and 30 with you as p1

MSmits: your p1 game is really hard to beat

MSmits: 70 took a long time, but is more doable

MSmits: (p2 i mean)

MSmits: think there's an early mistake somewhere in your p2, but hard to be sure

MSmits: from doing a lot of meta mcts, it does seem like the bot almost does perfect play

jacek: so if i rewrite the bot to rust, you are dead

MSmits: nah, i dont need massive cg bench, it would just mean i submit twice a day to get some games

MSmits: i run cg bench to first loss, analyze the game, adjust meta mcts to search

MSmits: my bot doesnt make many mistakes either

MSmits: so i just need to find them

jacek: nice of you being nonNN at the top

Astrobytes: that was the objective iirc ;)

MSmits: without book it's a clear 5th

MSmits: big gap on both sideesw

MSmits: sides

jacek: big gap between top 5 and rest

MSmits: yes and big gap between 4 and 5 i think, well depending on submit

MSmits: sometimes i would get near 4, but i think it's lucky

MSmits: btw agade has a weird bot

jacek: and scary avatar

MSmits: one move in some cases is difference between 0% and 100% winrate

Default avatar.png pu55ython: titties

jacek: oO

MSmits: sometimes i am adjusting my meta mcts vs you, and my agade drops hard

MSmits: because it's super deterministiv

MSmits: +c

MSmits: basically means finding a new playline vs agade

MSmits: pretty easy because it always plays the same moves

MSmits: he should do the +random thing

MSmits: so should robo, also pretty easy, but his playline does not compete with yours so it doesnt change

MSmits: btw if you were wondering:

MSmits: Moves Added: 1473

MSmits: that's all

MSmits: room for 100k more :P

MSmits: i think i run out of HD space before i run out of book space

jacek: how deep it is

VizGhar: What are you 2 talking about? You should probably open closed chat :)

Astrobytes: Nah, this is the daily sermon from MSmits

Astrobytes: (well, used to be daily ;) )

VizGhar: :D good to know

MSmits: it depends jacek. Some cases 90 plies, on your p2 line. The thing is, even though you often have 4 moves to choose from, 3 moves are so bad that no bot will pick them anyway. So branching is effectively 1

MSmits: VizGhar dont interrupt the sermon ! :P

jacek: do you have more gray hair now?

MSmits: mmh not really, less hair maybe

VizGhar: ok, ok... jeez... :D


MSmits: the interesting thing is that many consistently won games go 200 plies deep, but i just need a little help preventing mistakes in the first 20 to 40 plies

Astrobytes: VizGhar: Smits is master of opening books and Destroyer of NNs

MSmits: I try :P

MSmits: yes this guy is like me jacek

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: so my school is closed till 19 jan =/

MSmits: lockdown

MSmits: will be doing a lot of online teaching again

Astrobytes: Ah. Well, better for your health prospects I guess.

MSmits: yeah, i have some colleagues who caught it

Astrobytes: Also, more CG time :smiling_imp:

MSmits: that for sure, i just got out of a very busy work/study period

Astrobytes: Ah crap, I hope they've recovered well

MSmits: i think so, 1 still sick but i expect he will be ok

MSmits: I have to create a game and game design document for a class (as a student)

Astrobytes: Was just gonna ask about your studies

MSmits: I was thinking of recreating yavalath in unity and add some features for improving play

MSmits: like hints and such like they have for chess games

Astrobytes: Nice idea!

MSmits: its better than the alternative, they wanted me to try and create a variation of the roll a ball tutorial

MSmits: but that seems boring

Astrobytes: Why stop there though. Ultimate Yavalath. Many boards. Many dimensions :P

Astrobytes: That seems excruciatingly boring tbh

MSmits: sure i might do some other variation

jacek: roll a ball?

MSmits: its a basic unity tutorial

MSmits: move a ball, gather coins

jacek: variation would be roll a cube

MSmits: pretty good as a tutorial, but not very motivating to work on

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: haha

Astrobytes: roll a ball, every time you grab a coin a Yavalath board pops up

MSmits: good one

MSmits: but i am allowed to just create a different game

MSmits: they wanted to make it easier for since it is only a 3 credit course

Astrobytes: Yeah, I'd go with your idea. Won't take you long, you can spend more time polishing it

MSmits: yeah, btw, i think you can even sell a yavalath game as long as you dont call it that

MSmits: the name is trademarked

Astrobytes: Lavayath. Just add a volcano somewhere.

MSmits: you cant copyright simple game mechanics apparently

MSmits: brilliant

Astrobytes: :grin:

MSmits: maybe in the middle, it's a solved move anyway

Astrobytes: Good idea!

MSmits: might have to increase the size of the board, because it might cause a lot of draws, maybe not though

MSmits: btw

MSmits: i did the playground tensorflow thing

Astrobytes: Have to test it first. Either that or you could just make the whole board lava, pieces jump around on rocks

MSmits: for my course at work

Astrobytes: ah right, how did that go

MSmits: cut it into little pieces and slowly grew the app to teach them about NN

MSmits: it worked great

MSmits: much better than i thought it would, it's really a nice thing they made

jacek: playground? you mean that graphic thing?

Astrobytes: Awesome. Your students responded well to it?

MSmits: its especially cool how you can solve some problems with more input and also with more hidden layers

MSmits: jacek yeah

Astrobytes: brb, need coffee

Uljahn: did you use specific dataset?

Uljahn: like MNIST


MSmits: all 4 data classification sets

MSmits: the spiral can only be done with hidden layers

Uljahn: ah, that thing

MSmits: you dont even need to be able to code to learn about NN

MSmits: in depth even, because it really shows what hidden layers do

jacek: the pinnacle of machine learning - throw new more hidden layers and see what happends

MSmits: yeah, it also shows that if you throw in too many, your nn wont converge in any reasonable time

MSmits: kinda gives you a feel for the kind of thing researches deal with

MSmits: the trial and error

MSmits: still feel a bit lacking in knowledge because I havent made my own NN yet, but it's good enough to teach these basic things

jacek: it really kicked when i saw xor example in python, then rewritten to withtout numpy, then rewritten to c++

jacek: with 1 hidden layer and arbitrary hidden nodes

jacek: thats why im strill struggling with convolutional NNs. i could simply do complicated architecture in python using lib, but to understand it fully i'd have to write it myself from scratch

Astrobytes: well, experience is a great teacher

MSmits: yeah

ian173: miss me with that poorly written coding question

jacek: hm?

Lks10: which game you all talking about?

jacek: oware

SupSon: oware uses nn?

Astrobytes: several of the top AIs yeah

jacek: except for the 3rd

jacek: ;f

Astrobytes: indeed

SupSon: tensorflow?

darkhorse64: I am looking for N-tuple reference (either toy implementation or paper for noob). Any pointers

darkhorse64: ?

jacek: this?

jacek: SupSon there are no NN libs for python in CG.

MSmits: is it fair to say there are no NN libs in CG?

MSmits: at all?

jacek: maybe

darkhorse64: I read this one but it does not really describe what is a N-tuple or I did not understand

darkhorse64: Thanks anyway

MSmits: a ntuple is a pattern with a parameter

MSmits: when you eval you check for patterns on your board

MSmits: N stands for the number of squares

MSmits: or hexes or whatever

MSmits: in othello you can go up to 9 or so

MSmits: because there are so many possible patterns, you get a huge load of params, which you train

MSmits: using TD learning for example

jacek: well i know several papers of using N-tuples, dunno if they are more explanable

MSmits: darkhorse64, basically, you create a giant lookup array

MSmits: you pext your board to extract sets of patterns for features

MSmits: then do the lookups and calculate your eval by adding them up linearly

MSmits: correct me if i am wrong jacek

jacek: for 2048, for connect4

jacek: basically its correct, MSmits

MSmits: thought so, all this seems easy to me, it's mostly the learning I am vague about

SupSon: do you use frugally deep?

MSmits: whats that?

jacek: so, no :)

jacek: i googled its some c++ nn lib

DomiKo: :joy:

SupSon: how do you encode the state of the board?

MSmits: for othello it's easy, 64 squares

darkhorse64: I have read all of that by googling this afternoon but I do not seem to be able to connect all the dots together. How to extract the pattern across the board, how to train, what are the relevant data structures ? Actually most papers require some prior knowledge that I haven't yet

MSmits: 1 bit each

MSmits: two boards

MSmits: darkhorse, use pext to extract

SupSon: no for oware

MSmits: did you use pext for yavalath darkhorse64?

MSmits: it's the same thing

jacek: i use 12 ints for houses and 2 ints for score

SupSon: oh so not one hot?

MSmits: SupSon i use a single uint64_t for the entire board

Astrobytes: ('cause he's nuts)

SupSon: for input to the nn?

jacek: SupSon oh you meant the input for the NN?

MSmits: Astrobytes yes :P

SupSon: yea input to the nn

MSmits: darkhorse64, this might help:


jacek: then yes, i use one-hots. each house has 1 possible state of 0-31 and each score also is 1 possible state of 0-25

MSmits: or

darkhorse64: I know pext, the real issue is the mask (I mean which data to extract)

jacek: so i have always active 14 inputs out of possible 436 inputs at any given time

MSmits: ohh that depends on the game

MSmits: Othello uses mostly patterns connected to the corners

MSmits: like 3x2

MSmits: or 3x3

RoboStac: I just directly pass 16 floats in for my nn - 12 for the houses, 2 for the scores and 2 0's so my input layer is a multiple of 8

MSmits: so you extract those bits and look them up

MSmits: hi robo :)

RoboStac: hi

SupSon: alright thanks

MSmits: RoboStac, if you want to beat my bot again in oware, add some random to your move selection

MSmits: +0.01 or something

MSmits: might also help beat other NN's if your bot is strong enough

RoboStac: I'm not sure how much difference that'd make, it's usually very certain on the value of a move

MSmits: I'm just solving your entire playline now =/

MSmits: hmm ok

MSmits: but the game is long

MSmits: you say usually, but that's 100 choices or so

MSmits: it only takes some variation to frustrate a booker

MSmits: just an idea, make it a little harder for me

Astrobytes: wait for the chess game, you'll love that MSmits :P

MSmits: your bot is otherwise very very strong

jacek: but its 960

Astrobytes: exactly

MSmits: whats that?

Astrobytes: "love" it

MSmits: 960?

Astrobytes: Fischer Random

MSmits: ohh ok

RoboStac: a chess variation designed to beat opening books

MSmits: nice

RoboStac: 960 starting layouts

MSmits: i would not mind more games i cant book, there's too many games to book as it is. I only have so many cpus :P

Astrobytes: hahaha

MSmits: still have to do checkers and breakthrough

MSmits: havent started on those

MSmits: i kinda want to improve bot before i do

Astrobytes: too busy with raic for cg atm

MSmits: meta mcts sucks with bad bot

MSmits: ah hows that going

jacek: not if you allocated enough time for mcts...

Astrobytes: Pretty good, qualified for round 2 at least

MSmits: nice

Astrobytes: game is pretty cool

MSmits: jacek thats true, but it would go off on a bad branch for days. Better to avoid that. Also helps to have a strong solver to detect early loss/win

Westicles: there is this

Westicles: Looks like it is for dart...

jacek: oO

Westicles: and also rust

RoboStac: MSmits - looks like you were right, a little randomness does beat your opening book

jacek: :scream:

YodaMaster123: Neural network for Oware Abapa?

Astrobytes: Yep.

YodaMaster123: About that, has anyone attempted to modify aged`s neural network chatbot for another server?

YodaMaster123: *Agade.

Astrobytes: not that I'm aware of, but perhaps?

NguyenVinhHien: what is avantage of Java and Nodejs for back-end programming bros?

MadKnight: YodaMaster123 u wanna turn him into discord chatbot ?

Uljahn: shouldn't it be retrained on relevant chat logs first?

Uljahn: imagine it pinging euler on another server xD

Astrobytes: lol

LastRick: Anyone out there beat Escaping the Cat? How far off is this last test?

Default avatar.png surperMM: Single possibility

jacek: AutomatonNN how many hidden nodes do you have

AutomatonNN: why is this contest enough to get a secret to make the game and simply have the best path to test ra

MSmits: RoboStac I knew tha :)

MSmits: by making your bots more random, I make my book more general and better

MSmits: just takes longer to "train" is all

jacek: so it was the plan all along

MSmits: yeah.. my evil plan

MSmits: :smiling_imp:

Uljahn: LastRick: as a reference, here is the last testcase with some dark trigs magic :)

MSmits: need to share i think?

MSmits: I cant view your replay

MSmits: Uljahn

Uljahn: :confused:

MSmits: if you run a replay in the IDE it's private

MSmits: unless you share it with the share button

MSmits: thats why you're also not able to share CG bench replays


Uljahn: i used the share both times :(

MSmits: :scream_cat:

MSmits: what weird stuff is that lol

jacek: the pool should be hex

MSmits: well anything is better with hex of course... but currently i am just wondering what I am looking at :P

Uljahn: that was quite overengineered solution though

MSmits: o right, i can click play

MSmits: is this a puzzle ?

MSmits: says best score up top, wondering if it's an optim, but then there's no leaderboard, so..

MSmits: :confused:

Uljahn: just a puzzle with a nice visual

MSmits: ah ok, yeah it does

LastRick: Oh wow. Zigzag? Very impressive.

LastRick: BTW I just solved it, found the problem was I was using the cat's current location to solve where on the pool edge I should go, rather than the cat's location on the NEXT step. That literally was the difference.

MSmits: ahh that's a common mistake in many problems like that

WillRises: Anyone in the chat rn that can help me with JavaScript puzzle on ? I don't understand what it's asking me and feeling dumb

LastRick: Feel free anytime to ask a question about a puzzle in the chat. Just be as specific as possible.

MSmits: include the link to the puzzle

MSmits: that way people can click on it, quickly see their own solution if they solved it and maybe give you a hint

eulerscheZahl: what's

eulerscheZahl: oh right, it redirects here

LastRick: Thats your one question today, Euler, youre done

eulerscheZahl: as does

MSmits: it's actually the real address eulerscheZahl, you just suck at spelling :P

eulerscheZahl: oh :D

eulerscheZahl: then they sent me the wrong merch

MSmits: merchandise?

eulerscheZahl: yes

MSmits: or they just know you can't spell

MSmits: is this T-shirt for Euler? Remove the G please


eulerscheZahl: they didn't even add a separation between 2 blocks

LastRick: Wow, i didnt see that at first

MSmits: mmh ok

MSmits: why a rubiks cube anyway

MSmits: it's another nerdy hobby, but not really related

MSmits: might as well have used a chess board

eulerscheZahl: why robot arm?

WillRises: Where do I start with this puzzle? I'm new to code and looking for projects to practice on.

eulerscheZahl: because it looks cool

MSmits: I guess so :)

VizGhar: This one is fun... but it simply looks like picking buch of correct if elses hmm

struct: WillRises binary search

MSmits: WillRises you use binary search

MSmits: damnit struct

VizGhar: WillRises check forum and apply binary search :)

WillRises: Got it. thanks guys

LastRick: MSmits: you used two extra words, its your own fault


MSmits: WillRises basically, you need to know the minimum and maximum coordinate of the possible locations of the bomb and jump between them

MSmits: that minimizes the number of jumps needed

MSmits: LastRick correct

WillRises: Right I got that. I just don't know how to apply that in the (terminal?).

MSmits: allright, I assume you know the current location of batman

MSmits: if the input says the bomb is to the right

Astrobytes: in the Bat Cave

MSmits: you take the currentX

MSmits: and the maximum X

Astrobytes: just off the phone with him

LastRick: Hah

MSmits: and go between them. Just average them

jacek: or maybe hes asking how does input/output work on CG

Default avatar.png YusufEmad04: print("Hello World")

MSmits: input works as reading input for your language, depends

WillRises: Hmm I might be learning how to run a marathon here before learning to crawl

MSmits: output is basically just your languages print statement

DomiKo: hi struct

MSmits: you might be a talented baby, who knows

struct: hi DomiKo

DomiKo: You know you got bug too?

struct: WillRises you might want to start with easy puzzles

struct: DomiKo which bug?

DomiKo: in STC

eulerscheZahl: oh, you are in top20 already :o

WillRises: struct. got any suggestions on "easy puzzles"?

eulerscheZahl: i think you should stop now

struct: I saw the replay, but no bug

MSmits: some easy puzzles are harder than batman though, they're not all categorized properly

DomiKo: euler yea

DomiKo: top20 is hard no

DomiKo: the gap is so biggg

struct: do the decent, power of thor, horse racing, temperatures

MSmits: the descent

WillRises: Word. Thanks.

MSmits: those are quite good yeah

eulerscheZahl: do the descent decently

struct: DomiKo what was the bug? :|

MSmits: also dont give up when you fail the first one

jacek: :notebook: :soccer:

eulerscheZahl: :door:

MSmits: some might suit you better

WillRises: Never give up. Never surrender

DomiKo: the bug is losing :wink:

MSmits: right

struct: oh

MSmits: jacek it's still on my list. Maybe if you didnt make your bots so strong in other games, i'd already be doing the soccer game :)

struct: Maybe when I finish STC that bug is fixed

LastRick: All of the easy puzzles are definitely not created equally. "Easy", "Medium", even "Very Hard", these are subjective terms not defined by, say, a dictionary.

eulerscheZahl: is STC on your list too smits?

MSmits: smash the code?

eulerscheZahl: yes

MSmits: i did start it once, but never finished the bot

MSmits: something happened, probably a contest or a fun multi

Westicles: RIP another rockstar

MSmits: i also still need to finish my D&B

eulerscheZahl: they are dying like flies

LastRick: rockstar is (was?) a user, correct?

Westicles: ya

eulerscheZahl: i have 5 now unnamed followers in the last 3 weeks

eulerscheZahl: i think that was all rockstar

MSmits: what are you doing to them?

eulerscheZahl: ban

LastRick: what is going on?

eulerscheZahl: long story

LastRick: ahh

LastRick: how can there be so much drama on a site full of nerds coding pods

Westicles: I made a nice clash for him... oh well

MSmits: there's not that much drama i think, considering this chat is almost completely open

mzztin: poggers

MSmits: problem is mostly that teachers have their class login here and do stuff

MSmits: which is cool, but problematic sometimes

eulerscheZahl: there's a much bigger drama event in the coding world: hacktoberfest

eulerscheZahl: imagine it like a school class released on the CG chat. but instead of 1h it lasts an entire month

MSmits: fun

Default avatar.png YusufEmad04: hi

eulerscheZahl: nonsense pull requests just so you complete 5 PRs and get a free tshirt

MSmits: maybe I am immature but sometimes their jokes make me laugh.

eulerscheZahl: :D

LastRick: had no idea about the classroom assignment stuff. But it makes sense

eulerscheZahl: some teachers park their class here. which is fine as long as they are supervised

LastRick: hahah

MSmits: I've only rarely had specific students come online here, not just whole classes

MSmits: it just doesnt work, most students cant code well enough, so they'll just mess around

eulerscheZahl: ramdeath has better students than you

LastRick: i'll say this. I enjoy the chat and site more during this time of day rather than, say, eight hours from now. Totally different.

MSmits: no doubt, different kind of class I bet

eulerscheZahl: in 8h Europe is asleep

MSmits: LastRick it's not the same every day though

MSmits: but i get your point

MSmits: eulerscheZahl is asleep

MSmits: not all of us

eulerscheZahl: :P

MSmits: well... we *should* be

Astrobytes: Smits is up all night cooing softly to his meta MCTSs

MSmits: but I doubt i'll sleep early these next few weeks

MSmits: huh

MSmits: i thought all my cameras were off

Astrobytes: :D

MSmits: did MadKnight tell you this, he's always hacking me

Astrobytes: hahaha

MSmits: ohh i got kicked off nr 1 othello

MSmits: some guy named oldjohn evaded my book

MSmits: mmhh

Westicles: easy come, easy iago

MSmits: he beats dbdr sometimes too

struct: 40 moves book lol

Astrobytes: jeez westicles that was awful


Astrobytes: :D

Westicles: heh heh

MSmits: struct that is going to make it really easy to fix for me

struct: yeah

LastRick: Westicles: :neutral_face:

MSmits: well I'll get on that then

mzbear: rewrote my heuristic engine, misplaced one ! and it took forever to find the issue, argh

MSmits: happened to all of us

MSmits: sucks

MSmits: sometimes i just place a ! because I am really excited about my code without meaning to negate it

mzbear: :D

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Default avatar.png Maxim251: what a nice game

LastRick: :laughing::skull:

RaunakCodes2625: hello

MEtal221: hello

jacek: oh im 1st in o

jacek: and his book is really deep

Default avatar.png OldJohn: Only 10 lines

jacek: oO

Default avatar.png OldJohn: I took a 30 years old program

MSmits: well mine is only 1 line

MSmits: it's a very long line

jacek: logistello?

Default avatar.png OldJohn: No but I was working with Michael

MSmits: is that one of the designers ?

jacek: :tada:

jacek: michael buro?

Astrobytes: Obviously Michael Buro

Default avatar.png OldJohn: Yes This was my program I took

jacek: nice place, considering ai advecements in the last 30 years

MSmits: nice to meet you OldJohn

MSmits: Maybe you know Renard then, he also used a 30 yr old othello program afaik

Default avatar.png OldJohn: Yes here is a human evaluation no bitboard hastable and endgame

Default avatar.png OldJohn: I know Sylvain yes

MSmits: oh thats his real name then?

Default avatar.png OldJohn: In fact we did not see each other for a long time

MSmits: it's cool to meet up here then

jacek: not even n-tuples?

Astrobytes: It's like CG has an underground computer board game expert network

Astrobytes: :)

mzbear: grr. i cant make a heuristic that beats the boss AND all others to reach the boss. i give up, i'll start writing a search algorithm after all, i can't do this with pure heuristics :(

MSmits: seems like that yeah

MSmits: mzbear you dont have to

Astrobytes: tric too, checkers was his thing iirc

MSmits: if you have a heuristic that beats boss

MSmits: you will keep submitting

MSmits: and push the other guys above the boss and promote them

MSmits: when they're all gone, you got it

Default avatar.png OldJohn: I think dbdr program is probably the best at Othello from a Othello player point of view

mzbear: MSmits :DDD

mzbear: that's certainly ... an interesting strategy ...

MSmits: OldJohn possibly, but dbdr did not add random

MSmits: it's quite easy to counter

MSmits: jacek much less so

Astrobytes: He used multi probcut if I remember rightly

MSmits: yeah he went all out on this one

jacek: but mine loses to dbdr considerably

jacek: im 1st due to submit luck

MSmits: right and also because my bot wins 96% vs dbdr and maybe 80% vs you

MSmits: because of the damn random

MSmits: i did a lot of submitting after which the game went still, so thats also why you ranked above dbdr

MSmits: not much luck to it

Default avatar.png OldJohn: The long opening line versus your program is only because my program did not find the winning move but I saw it and check with more thinking time with my computer

jacek: ohh so personally you are good othello player?

MSmits: that's cool OldJohn, I sense a kindred soul

Default avatar.png OldJohn: Are you all using bitboard ?

Astrobytes: Great to have guys like you playing on here, really

Astrobytes: I believe mostly everyone is using bitboards yes

Default avatar.png OldJohn: In fact I have a bad program in '89 that was using bitboards that competed in Computer Olympiads

jacek: most here use bitboards

MSmits: yeah I use a 2x 64 bit bitboard

darkhorse64: OK, I think I understand how n-tuples works (at least how to implement it, why it works is another story). Still have to work on TDL namely how to update the weights

MSmits: thats where i am also

MSmits: the patterns work because in othello (if this is the game where you do it) local patterns can tell you the value of the board.

MSmits: you wouldnt be able to do this in uttt, because moves will make you jump all over the board

MSmits: in othello you will have some isolated fronts

MSmits: not entirely.... but close enough

darkhorse64: It reminds me of UTTT tritboards for the encoding. It might also be applicable on Y with 4-tuples

MSmits: thats exactly what i do in uttt, i use tritboards for lookup. I guess it's kind of like using miniboards as ntuples

MSmits: but as eval its not that great

MSmits: because of the interdependence of the miniboards

MSmits: it's really a domain specific thing

darkhorse64: I have not touched that thing for months. Even if I know implementing bonus for teccles, mini board wins or free moves would help

struct: any other game anyone would like to see?

Astrobytes: Don't forget Amazons

MSmits: is gomoku worth doing?

MSmits: I'm going to regret suggesting this :P

MSmits: not sure if maybe it's solved or unbalanced or anything, i came across it reading papers

MSmits: apparently go players play it to relax after a go game

MSmits: I dont like go, but i do like to relax

Astrobytes: stops them go-ing moku

MSmits: lol

MSmits: isnt amazons solved?

MSmits: probably you can grow it to a larger size

MSmits: or something

eulerscheZahl: i'm pretty sure Nine men's morris would be a boring game here on CG

Astrobytes: need 12+

struct: I dont think Amazons is solved

MSmits: nine mens morris is easily solved

MSmits: could also be grown

Astrobytes: that's why I said 12

Astrobytes: can't remember much about it though, I read some papers

Astrobytes: a while ago

Astrobytes: afk for a bit

struct: seems like gomoku is forced win/draw for black

struct: They use swap rule

MSmits: is the game interesting when swapping?

MSmits: because the same is true for yavalath, its a forced win for p1 on 7 starting hexes

MSmits: but with swap its a very interesting and balanced game

struct: Its a different kind of swap

MSmits: oh?

struct: "In Swap2 rule, the first player starts by placing three stones (2 black and 1 white, if black goes first) on the board. The second player then selects one of three options: play black, play white and place one more stone, or place two more stones and let the first player choose the color.[5][6] This is essentially a slightly more elaborate pie rule."

MSmits: ahh ok

reCurse: Ohh I remember nine men's morris. It was to study minimax in some AI course I had at university decades ago.

reCurse: They organized an AI tournament for it, little did I know at the time it would be useful so long after ;)

eulerscheZahl: sounds like you are older than i always thought

reCurse: I know -_-

reCurse: 18 years ago so maybe decade was not quite plural yet

struct: for some reason I Thought he was in 20-30 range

struct: 25-30*

reCurse: Need to bump that up a little

MSmits: well struct you were right he was

MSmits: and then he wasnt anymore

MSmits: I always thought he was my age

MSmits: almost 40

eulerscheZahl: that matches my imaginations

reCurse: Yeah getting closer

reCurse: sigh

Default avatar.png LightFury01: hello guys

Default avatar.png LightFury01: how you doin

Default avatar.png LightFury01: :)

Default avatar.png monami7000: great

Default avatar.png monami7000: am 56 years old, learning to code

MSmits: you're never too old to code

MSmits: I mean look at reCurse, he still does it

MSmits: :P

reCurse: Hey you're older than me though not by much

reCurse: shush

MSmits: :)

Astrobytes: getting older ain't that bad tbh

Astrobytes: For now

struct: MSmits I think i asked you this before, do you think bitboards are worth on STC?

LastRick: Even those of us that are *cough* even older can learn a lot here. This site has been a pleasant surprise

Astrobytes: Nice to hear. Good to have another convert on here. And there're plenty 'mature' people on here ;)

mzbear: ffs my bot got high enough to challenge boss ... 12 losses against the boss, no wins ... outside the arena i keep winning half of the time

LastRick: Boss: Know your place, son.

wisp1st: Know your place Boss

kovi: oh, recurse is older than me :o

eulerscheZahl: Artrosebytes

Astrobytes: lol wot

Astrobytes: how old are you kovi?

kovi: 50

mzbear: you know what, i'm gonna cheat ... i'll just predetermine some random seeds that win against the bot every time, since it's deterministic

Astrobytes: I'm 38, I don't think recurse is 50+ btw ;)

eulerscheZahl: that's now what I understood either but a good way to trigger him

mzbear: actually, i could test out every top bot in silver league to see if they are deterministic, and figure out some seeds that win against most of them ;D

Astrobytes: lol euler

Astrobytes: write a search already mzbear, your masochistic approach is making my teeth itch :D

mzbear: there we go, 3 hardcoded seeds that each always win against the boss, chosen at random (so i wont get stuck against other deterministic ones). i feel so bad doing this

mzbear: but i want to get to gold league without search

LastRick: Good gracious, more contributions? I think we're over 110 now.

LastRick: I was going to make a joke earlier this morning about breaking through 100. Hah, we've blown by now.

Astrobytes: Yes, it's getting a little crowded in there. Mostly clashes too I think.

jacek: clashes :f

LastRick: Over 80 of the 110

reCurse: Is that the game now, triggering me? :P

Astrobytes: :/

Astrobytes: lol

jacek: nn uttt clashes?

reCurse: wtf people think I'm 50 now

Astrobytes: Yeah, GRAMPS :P

reCurse: I'm 36 geez

jacek: ok boomer

LastRick: Hey, thats Euler's nickname

LastRick: gramps

Astrobytes: I was pointing it out to kovi that you were not in fact, older than him

reCurse: Game is over, I'm triggered :p

Astrobytes: hahaha

kovi: im reliefed then (loosing vs. younger is acceptable) sorry i misunderstood the relations in chat, you refered to msmits probably not manami

reCurse: Haha yeah

reCurse: Strange curve, usually it's acceptable to lose vs older

reCurse: When does it shift?

Default avatar.png AI_says_hi: Hey folks I have a general question: Som eof the bot programming challenges recommend using machine learning, e.g. genetic algorithm. Is the ML-mechanism supposed to learn within a single game? Or is there a way to carry over parameters? Thanks :)

elcolumbio: at 45

elcolumbio: 42

Astrobytes: 37 reCurse :P

jacek: you cant 'save' anything from the game

reCurse: F

Astrobytes: you can run an online search, or you can download replay data and train offline

LastRick: I've had a related GA question sitting on the forum for a few days with no answer, I'll throw it out here. I've been reading a lot recently about GA, mostly word guess examples and I would love to code Search Race. I know ppl aren't going to share code. But any suggestions about the choice of gene/crossover/mutations would be appreciated.

reCurse: Whatever gets you out of it :P

Astrobytes: thrust + angle?

RoboStac: LastRick - and just ignore anything about blockers

kovi: loose vs. younger:


eulerscheZahl: IQ is defined via average intelligence if your intelligence remains constant but newer generations get smarter, your IQ value drops

struct: so the older people IQ might increase

reCurse: Hmm...

MSmits: struct, my bitboard floodfill was not very fast on STC, but i never finished the bot

reCurse: Not sure what to make of both :)

LastRick: Robo: I've read that article and one point I'm confused about is he's evaluating chromosomes with pod1 and pod2 directions and he picks the "best" one to output. But he also says he looks six steps into the future. Is the "best" option the one that puts in the best position for the next turn? Or the one that puts in the best position six turns in the future?

struct: I guess I won't try it then

struct: Also I'm not familiar with bitboards so I guess it would take me a while

MSmits: dont try it on STC, but do try it on any boardgame

MSmits: its really not that hard, only a few things to learn

MSmits: i should say, its not hard to get the bitboard state working. But to make a quick sim is sometimes a challenge

MSmits: for example bandas pushing and oware seeding

MSmits: othello has free code you can google

MSmits: so the sim problem will be solved there

RoboStac: LastRick - play out the 6 turns and then calculate a score (if you look at the score function in 5.2.1 you can see the loop to play turns before evaluating)

jacek: yeah, but what about boards over 8x8, or over 11x11 (so you cant cheat with int128_t)

MSmits: i did bitboards on ooc

MSmits: just make an array of ints

jacek: oO

MSmits: recurse won with bitboards on ice and fire

jacek: and i see youre resubmitting O bot now :o

MSmits: yeah, i fixed it

jacek: fixed?

eulerscheZahl: added entry to opening book

MSmits: yeah so it doesnt lose vs our new friend :)

struct: I saw puyo puyo code of a person doing it with 2 int64

eulerscheZahl: so last to edit the book wins?

MSmits: in theory yeah

MSmits: but so far that always seems to be me :P

reCurse: Saying you win with bitboards is a bit like saying you win with C++...

MSmits: sure, but jacek was suggesting bitboards are hard to use in some games

jacek: HTML is programming language

eulerscheZahl: temporarily i got first with code

reCurse: So a bit boring

jacek: pun intended?

reCurse: Maybe

jacek: MSmits you could print the book moves like him

MSmits: or i could do it like you and always print book

MSmits: didnt you do that in one game?

jacek: the other O game

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: I wouldnt print my book moves, because that would make it really easy to counter

jacek: i used to in bt to print book randomly up to 38..46 plies

MSmits: thats funny

jacek: to troll the boomers

jacek: bookers*

MSmits: nice mistype

Astrobytes: excellent

MSmits: typo

jacek: or was it?

MSmits: no idea

MSmits: you are a mystery

MSmits: aww damnit, i lost my 46th othello game

MSmits: damn your random

MSmits: :rage:

eulerscheZahl: :D

Skril: thanks eulerscheZahl for Space Maze ; it was a fun and interesting puzzle :-)

eulerscheZahl: wouldn't it be boring with everyone deterministic?

MSmits: yeah i am just kidding. It would be very boring

eulerscheZahl: i saw you solved it, congrats Skril

eulerscheZahl: you are the 7th to solve it without me

MSmits: good job skril, apparently that one is very hard

Astrobytes: 7 now, nice

Skril: thanks :-)

jacek: oh you lost again

MSmits: yeah, i never completely finished royale and your's playlines, too many options.

MSmits: also royale kept resubmitting different versions, i got a bit fed up :P

MSmits: doing this makes me think about what othello AI tournaments must have been like

MSmits: opening books must have been huge. Checking official games, trying to counter those moves etc.

MSmits: either that or they found some way to prevent it... but i doubt it, the game is very simple

MSmits: as in few states

jacek: thats why at some point they banned opening books for chess or forced some balanced openings

MSmits: they would have to look at the source code to know someone is using one

MSmits: a book that counters a specific bot is very small, so it's not even going to show in the size of the executable

MSmits: i guess they can *suspect* and players can be sporting enough to try not to cheat

reCurse: It's solved by forcing random openings

reCurse: Or in chess, use chess960

MSmits: yeah I guess so

MSmits: Onitama does a good job of this

mzbear: WTF .... i used hardcoded seeds that guarantee 100% winrate outside of arena ... and still lost against the bot twice in the arena

MSmits: calculation time might be somewhat different in the arena for some languages

eulerscheZahl: which game?

mzbear: UTTT

MSmits: i should say performance

eulerscheZahl: gold boss? is not deterministic

mzbear: silver boss

mzbear: i'm trying to beat silver without a search algorithm :D

eulerscheZahl: hm, i don't know that boss

MSmits: what algorithm do you use?

eulerscheZahl: but your plan doesn't sound fun to me

MSmits: if else?

MSmits: or eval?

darkhorse64: trueAI

eulerscheZahl: GAimax

Astrobytes: You need a Prune Array

eulerscheZahl: was waiting for that

mzbear: a lot of if else, practically

MSmits: well you can solve regular TTT with a reasonable amount of if else

mzbear: the only "search" thing is two step lookup towards certain loss or certain win

MSmits: ah ok

mzbear: other than that, it generates moves and does rules like always taking a local win if it blocks enemy global win, etc

mzbear: and once no rules match, it goes through the possible moves and picks disruptive moves first, i.e. ones that sends enemy to subboard that can no longer contribute to global win

mzbear: etc

MSmits: ah I see

MSmits: I can totally see getting into gold with a good heuristic bot like that

MSmits: did you add teccles?

jacek: and tentacles

Astrobytes: that might be the missing part

Astrobytes: (teccles)

tarikyildiz: hello here the puzzles are very confusing to me, what should I do?

MSmits: in case you dont know teccles: It means, when you come to an empty board, you pick the move that has the same position on the miniboard as the miniboard has on the big board

mzbear: people keep mentioning the teccles but i didn't find what it is. someone described it briefly and i got the idea of the disruptive moves from that, but my disruptive move play only triggers late game

MSmits: or in other words, that sends the opponent to the same board

MSmits: this is a very strong heuristic when employed by search bots. I see no reason why it wouldnt help for a heuristic bot

mzbear: so i understood it correctly. i didn't try it, though, because it feels a bit odd, but maybe i'll try it

mzbear: my current bot got rank 3 in silver league ... so close

Astrobytes: and teccles works better early-mid game too right? So the late-game disruptive move should kick in at the right moment

MSmits: I played millions of games locally, it is almost always the best move

mzbear: huh

MSmits: exceptions maybe in the late game (20 ply + ) but even then its almost always the best move

Astrobytes: If you add that and get legend I'll give you 0.001€

Astrobytes: Next year.

jacek: silly, there wont be next year

MSmits: err, you mean after the UK is out of the EU?

Astrobytes: Yes :(

eulerscheZahl: that doesn't stop him from the ability to own Euros

MSmits: true

eulerscheZahl: i still have some Kunas

Astrobytes: This is true.

MSmits: i dont know what kunas are

eulerscheZahl: the currency in Croatia

MSmits: is this some fantasy game currency

MSmits: oh ok

Astrobytes: I've got some drachmas hanging around somewhere

eulerscheZahl: fantasy Croatia :D

MSmits: didn't you guys have marks?

eulerscheZahl: yes

eulerscheZahl: Deutsche Mark or DMark for short

Astrobytes: now they have Merks

MSmits: right

MSmits: is a Merk a follower of Merkel?

Astrobytes: Merkel Mark = euro

MSmits: owww

MSmits: you're operating on another level today astro

Astrobytes: well, I mean I just made it up but, it works

MSmits: cant reach it

Astrobytes: you've only just come back, give it a few days

MSmits: hey i was never really gone. I just didnt say anything :P

tarikyildiz: Hello. Do you have any Turks on this site?

Astrobytes: yeah we noticed :P

MSmits: let me check tarikyildiz

Astrobytes: tarikyildiz: quite a few I believe yes

MSmits: well not on othello anyway

Astrobytes: Isn't the guy currently streaming Turkish?

**MSmits should have gone to the full leaderboard

Astrobytes: why tarikyildiz? Can we help you with something?

MSmits: There are 23171 accounts from Turkey

struct: Not many

MSmits: Highest ranked is Jazzcript at 1447

struct: only 20 on fall challenge 2020

MSmits: about the same number as Dutch players

MSmits: (23688)

eulerscheZahl: but i can tell you 3 dutch players right away

struct: but 126 dutch on FC2020

tarikyildiz: thank you astrobytes i write when i need help :)

Astrobytes: OK cool tarikyildiz :)

MSmits: which 3?

struct: you, counter and someone else

eulerscheZahl: you, jh bonarius, counter balance

MSmits: counterbalance me and ?

MSmits: oh bonarius sure

Astrobytes: what happened to Mr Bonarius

Astrobytes: ?

Default avatar.png SBtree-bit: I can't wait!!!

eulerscheZahl: he became the wood clown

MSmits: great avatar

Astrobytes: He was kinda down on his luck I remember

Default avatar.png Maxim251: How pasible is to make code 29 letters size? In perl and Bash on Temperatures

MSmits: I think he had problems with the short timeframe of contests

MSmits: as in 10 days is too short for him

MSmits: he liked locam

Astrobytes: Yeah that too, but like he got divorced and stuff

mzbear: hmm. teccles made the early game of my bot quite a bit more aggressive, but late game weaker against the boss :O

MSmits: Maxim251 people do some extreme stuff to code golf

eulerscheZahl: oh, i totally missed that personal drama

MSmits: some languages are more suited to it

Astrobytes: wasn't a drama as such, just remember him mentioning it when he reappeared a while back

MSmits: mzbear i would still keep it, it lowerst the branching a lot

MSmits: you can fix it with different if elses

MSmits: it's objectively an improvement, but it might not mix well with the rest of your bot as it currently is

Astrobytes: try just your disruptive move heuristic in the endgame and use teccles earlier

Astrobytes: (and variations on that)

MSmits: if the boss is completely deterministic, you can also just make a little opening book

mzbear: well, my bot kinda relies on luck :D

MSmits: just put in some states your bot encounters every game and force it to do some move you know is good

Default avatar.png Maxim251: my code have 222 letters long, but if I replace if statment with ? : I could have few extra. All variables are 1 letter long, and I cant do nothing more, because i need keep {} () ; what are extra letters

MSmits: i dont know Maxim251, but you can google code golf tips or do a lot of clashes in shortest mode

MSmits: i picked up some tips there... though i am not that great at it

mzbear: i'll try cheesy approach first ... 3 hardcoded seeds that always win against boss outside arena, let's see how well teccles works against other players

MSmits: well you're not searching so cheesy is a must

MSmits: this is game is about as search friendly as you will find

MSmits: and heuristic unfriendly

Default avatar.png Maxim251: This is the code

MSmits: oh i have another heuristic

Default avatar.png Maxim251:

MSmits: mzbear

Astrobytes: I told him, but he took the masochistic route :D

MSmits: never play middle square

MSmits: if there are less than 2 squares filled

mzbear: oh? that's interesting

MSmits: unless it's the starting move

Lks10: you can remove the indenting to save characters I think

MSmits: middle square is bad

MSmits: because you send the opponent to the middle board

MSmits: sometimes its still good, but not when you only have 0 or 1 squares filled on a board. There's better ways to get 3 in a row then

Default avatar.png Maxim251: This one is hardcore... and have 212 letters long

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> using namespace std;int t;int a=5527;int main(){int n;cin>>n;cin.ignore();for(int i=0;i<n;i++){cin>>t;cin.ignore();if(abs(t)<abs(a)||(abs(t)==abs(a))&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(t==0){a=0;}cout<<a<<endl;}

MSmits: mzbear you can also watch some top 10 matches and mimic the playstyle

MSmits: you will see a lot of teccles then too

struct: for(int i = 0;i++<n;)

struct: is shorter

Astrobytes: Maxim251:

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Oh thanks :)

mzbear: huh wtf

mzbear: so, teccles worked REALLY well against players in silver

MSmits: good :)

struct: I told you mzbear...

mzbear: but it seems so unintuitive!

MSmits: it's a pretty deep tactic

MSmits: not obvious

MSmits: the main thing is (I think)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #Astrobytes, thanks a lot :)

MSmits: when you win a board

reCurse: Complaining about unintuitiveness in uttt

mzbear: 50% of battles done and i'm already at first place

reCurse: Sweet summer child

Astrobytes: you're welcome Maxim251

MSmits: you want there to be as many of your opponent marks in there

MSmits: because those are wasted

mzbear: oh lol, i pulled some other guy above boss with me

MSmits: so when you send your opponent to the same board, you guarantee that he has marks on there as well

MSmits: meaning that if you win it, he wastes them

Default avatar.png Maxim251: for(int i = 0;i++<n;) I didn't know that this is posible :)

MSmits: I think that's part of it anyway

eulerscheZahl: for(;;) is the same as while(true)

MSmits: its hard to see. But meta mcts doesnt lie

Westicles: Maxim251, you don't need an endl

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Yes, I already removed it when I realised that

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Thanks

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Code size is now 202

Astrobytes: finally getting an endl on things

Astrobytes: (I'll just get my coat)

mzbear: promotion to gold league in 25 minutes

Astrobytes: congrats mzbear!

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Starting at using namespace, everything is on that line. Only IOstream is on seperate line

mzbear: i should've just tried teccles earlier ... i didn't do it because it didn't make sense to me. lol

eulerscheZahl: got me from bottom legend to mid legend

Astrobytes: There's usually good reason when people give you tips

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Oh, Yes, I can remove ints, and all variables assighned to one int

mzbear: even if there's a good reason, it doesn't feel good if i dont understand it :P

struct: cout << t?a:0 << endl;

struct: and you can remove the if(t==0){a=0}

Astrobytes: as reCurse will tell you, good luck understanding UTTT

MSmits: the main problem with uttt is that in the beginning, many moves are about equally good

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> using namespace std;int t,a=552,n,i;int main(){n;cin>>n;cin.ignore();for(i=0;i++<n;){cin>>t;cin.ignore();if(abs(t)<abs(a)||(abs(t)==abs(a))&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}cout<<a;}

MSmits: there is no clear difference

MSmits: aside from trying to connect two x's or O's

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> using namespace std; int t,a=552,n,i;int main(){n;cin>>n;cin.ignore();for(i=0;i++<n;){cin>>t;cin.ignore();if(abs(t)<abs(a)||(abs(t)==abs(a))&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}cout<<a;}

eulerscheZahl: do you need that cin.ignore()

eulerscheZahl: ?

struct: I dont think he needs it

Astrobytes: chat golf eh

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Hm, what I can do with that?

eulerscheZahl: abs(t) == abs(a) t*t == a*a

Astrobytes: remove it

mzbear: so, now i gotta wait 20 minutes before i get to see how badly this heuristics bot performs in gold league ... i suppose i'll take a look at that space maze that was mentioned earlier

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Yes, It works.

Astrobytes: mzbear, you'll need a raycasting NN and spend a week writing down all the testcases

MSmits: or just learn a search, it's really not that hard for a simple game like uttt. Unless you already know search and just dislike it

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #eulerscheZahl Thank You. I was thinking that I need it

MSmits: huh what Astrobytes?

eulerscheZahl: then we are getting in a range where std::cin might be shorter than using namespace std

MSmits: he thanks you by giving you your own channel eulerscheZahl

Astrobytes: It was some guy we had on here for like 2 weeks going on about space maze, euler remembers

mzbear: i did fairly fine with MCTS in Blocking, i just didn't want to do another MCTS right away

eulerscheZahl: his ray casting didn't go anywhere

Astrobytes: his rays were blocked

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #eulerscheZahlabs(t) == abs(a) t*t == a*a

MSmits: ahh ok mzbear, makes sense

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I dont know how aplay that to my code

Default avatar.png Maxim251: My code now have 166. WOW

eulerscheZahl: "abs(t)==abs(a)" you have that verbatim in your code

MSmits: nice

mzbear: i figured it would be more fun to get into gold league without search, and it was indeed fun... kinda :D

Lks10: Go for minimax on UTTT for a change

MSmits: my theory is that if you go minimax and work out the best heuristics for pruning, you can later use this in a mcts

Default avatar.png Maxim251: yes

Astrobytes: Surprised you haven't attempted that yet MSmits

eulerscheZahl: replace it by a*a==t*t

MSmits: i did attempty a minimax

MSmits: my problem with minimax is that i always do it after i heavily optimize a mcts

MSmits: so its always worse and that demotivates me

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Wow, It works...

Astrobytes: heh heh, not like you at all

Default avatar.png Maxim251: !! Yes, now I know why I use abs...

MSmits: Maxim251 -3*-3 = 9

Astrobytes: you know why Maxim251?

MSmits: self multiplication removes minus signs

Lks10: I have the reverse problem where I have an optimized minimax, but dont want to work on mcts lol

MSmits: like abs does

Default avatar.png Maxim251: This mathematics removes -.. Ohhh

MSmits: unless you use i

eulerscheZahl: and you have more abs in your code

MSmits: be careful of i

eulerscheZahl: stop flexing with your muscular belly

MSmits: :P

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 154 now,

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Astrobytes: nice Maxim251

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #eulerscheZahl Thank You so much, You show me greate stuff for lenght of code optymisation :)

Astrobytes: also you can use import rather than include

MSmits: it's not even his specialty

eulerscheZahl: that's creating weird puzzles

MSmits: you're not really into code golf are you euler?

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> using namespace std;int t,a=552,n,i;int main(){cin>>n;for(i=0;i++<n;){cin>>t;if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}cout<<a;}

eulerscheZahl: nope smits

MSmits: yeah you make good stuff

eulerscheZahl: using namespace std;

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Yes?

eulerscheZahl: remove and use std::cin

MSmits: and std:cout?

eulerscheZahl: of course

MSmits: can you do some alias thingy for std?

Westicles: don't need int with main

MSmits: or is it not worth it?

Astrobytes: #import<iostream>

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 144 :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Is blowing my head now :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :alien:

eulerscheZahl: if(!t){a=0;}cout<<a;

eulerscheZahl: struct shortened that already

Astrobytes: depends how many times it's used MSmits

struct: or you can even do

eulerscheZahl: for(i=0 move the initialization to declaration

Default avatar.png Maxim251: But cout now need std::cout

MSmits: right

struct: cout<<t||a;

struct: if im not mistaken

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;int main(){std::cin>>n;for(i=0;i++<n;){cin>>t;if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

eulerscheZahl: or make it a global var, that's preinitialized

Astrobytes: replace #include <iostream> with #import<iostream>

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I made already global,

eulerscheZahl: for(;i++<n;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Also for "for" statment is using global i

Default avatar.png Maxim251: But i - I should have at 0 ?

struct: for(;--n;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: YES WORKS.

eulerscheZahl: while(--n) for readability

eulerscheZahl: which is a killer argument when golfing

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :thermometer_face:

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Thats insane

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 144

eulerscheZahl: you were at 144 before

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Maybe because of std::cin?

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;int main(){std::cin>>n;for(;--n;){std::cin>>t;if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

struct: if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Westicles: you still have the int on main

Astrobytes: ah yes, you missed it from previous version

Astrobytes: 1. Remove int from main.

Astrobytes: 2. replace #include <iostream> with #import<iostream>

eulerscheZahl: remove i

struct: std::cout<<t||a;

Default avatar.png Maxim251: No, after removing int and adding main to ... Error

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i, main(){std::cin>>n;for(;--n;){std::cin>>t;if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I must have int for main

struct: wait my thing might not work

Astrobytes: no, you missed a semicolon

Astrobytes: @Maxim251

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Hmmm still error.

Astrobytes: works for me

Astrobytes: i, main() -> i;main()

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i, main(){std::cin>>n;for(;--n;){std::cin>>t;if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :fearful::scream: Yes, works.. How that posble

Astrobytes: because you don't need to specify the return type of main

Astrobytes: now change your #include

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Shows me requires a type specyfier, but without int works

struct: std::cout<<(t?a:0);

Default avatar.png Maxim251: then it will behave like void

struct: if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Astrobytes: #import<iostream>

Westicles: Let's do space maze together next

Astrobytes: lel

struct: for(std::cin>>n;--n;)

struct: for(;std::cin>>t;)

struct: and you dont even need to read the number of temperatures

struct: you can remove n

struct: oh you need to read n

struct: im sorry

struct: you just dont need to use it

struct: for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: How to write? I am lost

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;main(){std::cin>>n;for(;std::cin>>t;){a=t;}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Default avatar.png Maxim251: sorry

struct: int t,a=552;int main(){for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #include <iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;main(){for(;std::cin>>t;){a=t;}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;}

Astrobytes: And once more (last time): replace #include <iostream> with #import<iostream>

eulerscheZahl: you need a macro for that astro

Default avatar.png Maxim251: int t,a=552;int main(){for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: not working

struct: that is not the entire code obviously

struct: Its just the start before the { of the for loop

MSmits: you guys are really on a mission to help this guy :)

MSmits: it's nice

mzbear: but if he's just copypasting everything blindly, you're not helping him :D

Astrobytes: Indeed eulerscheZahl :D

eulerscheZahl: it's not about helping anymore

eulerscheZahl: we are golfing

Astrobytes: it's about golfing

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: aha

mzbear: my c++ solution to that is 106 chars, and there might still be room to trim a few easily

eulerscheZahl: for(...){instr1;instr2} for(...)instr1,instr2

eulerscheZahl: removes the {}

mzbear: for example, that 552 ... i thought the specification said 5526 so i initialize my variable with 9999

eulerscheZahl: int n,r,t;main(){std::cin>>n;r=n*1e3

eulerscheZahl: my code

eulerscheZahl: and print r at the end

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #import<iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;main(){std::cin>>n;for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;){if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a)){a=t;}}if(!t){a=0;}std::cout<<a;} //for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: found -2 expected 1

eulerscheZahl: now you added the variable i again

jacek: oh my

struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Astrobytes: at least I don't need my macro now

struct: #import<iostream> int t,a=552,n,i;main(){std::cin>>n;for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

struct: #import<iostream> int t=0,a=552;int main(){for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

eulerscheZahl: why did you add the *int* main again?

struct: I initialized t to 0 by mistake

**eulerscheZahl slaps struct around a bit with a large fishbot

struct: oh lol

Astrobytes: :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: sorry, somebody else paste it previously, then I update code, but I make mistake and I go back to working state..

mzbear: hmm, i'm actually not losing every battle in gold UTTTT ... rank 423 out of 631

jacek: gold uttt? nice

Astrobytes: good stuff

mzbear: gold uttt ... without a search algorithm

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Yes I see it t=0;

struct: you can to t;

struct: or t,

MSmits: gj mzbear

MSmits: btw these heuristics you used, actually went unnoticed on uttt for a year or more after the multi went live

MSmits: i mean teccles and such

MSmits: so you're pretty advanced already :P

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Yes, works, is 5 letters shorter with

Default avatar.png Maxim251: for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)

Astrobytes: yeah, when you do a search you should be destined for greatness mzbear

MSmits: mz:bear:

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 133 now

struct: exec("...");

MSmits: gonna take out the trash, i expect you to be below 130 when i get back

Default avatar.png Maxim251: My head is now hurting me.. Thats insane how I could reduce code...

eulerscheZahl: you alone :)

mzbear: well yea, the entire AI of mine takes 0.01ms - 0.05ms per turn to do its job

Astrobytes: :smirk:

Default avatar.png Maxim251: No, never, Thanks To You ALL

Astrobytes: hey, we had fun

Westicles: please add a comment attributing us all

Astrobytes: Just don't ask us to do that again :P

Default avatar.png Maxim251: My self I will take 2 years after I will find that insane tricks

eulerscheZahl: we didn't even start yet

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I will try, But thats ... Oh I need print that on paper an memorise it :f

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :nerd::hugging::ghost:

eulerscheZahl: the whole check if you should update the temperature can be done with a polynomial instead of if(t*t<a*a||(a*a==t*t)&(t>a))

eulerscheZahl: btw you can remove some () here

Astrobytes: polynomial: when you don't feed your parrot.

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Ill check that

Astrobytes: (sorry, my maths teacher used that in school)

eulerscheZahl: i don't get it

eulerscheZahl: not sure if a language barrier or just stupid

Astrobytes: Stereotypical name for a parrot = Polly. Don't feed it? Polly no meal.

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I think I can remove {} from if statment

eulerscheZahl: ah :D

jacek: if you teach parrot to say "parrot, parrot", youll have a pokemon

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 129

eulerscheZahl: but the parrot is Kiki and Polly is the aunt

Astrobytes: Oh jeez, Enid Blyton

Default avatar.png Maxim251: :thermometer_face:

LastRick: Jokes and idioms are always the toughest to translate

eulerscheZahl: read 10 books and you pretty much know them all

Astrobytes: read 1 Enid Blyton book and you know them all

eulerscheZahl: but child me liked them

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 125

Astrobytes: I only read a few since my grandmother had a few of them

Astrobytes: *only read them

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #eulerscheZahl I fount that, I know what you mean to remove () from (t*t<a*a||a*a==t*t&t>a)a=t;

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 123

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 119

eulerscheZahl: if(condition)doStuff !condition?:doStuff

eulerscheZahl: #fr just pinged me

eulerscheZahl: sokoban :imp:

Astrobytes: I forgot you made that

DomiKo: omg

DomiKo: I didn't know

DomiKo: it is finished

DomiKo: I have to do it!

Astrobytes: lol

Westicles: hah, they should kick him for english

Default avatar.png Maxim251: !t?:a=0; hm I think I did something wrong

eulerscheZahl: not t, that whole part (t*t<a*a||a*a==t*t&t>a)

Default avatar.png Maxim251: I know what I did rong

Default avatar.png Maxim251: t?:a=0

Default avatar.png Maxim251: this is proper

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 116

Astrobytes: you get an allowance of 2 English conversations a year in #fr Westicles

Default avatar.png Maxim251: But there is or statment

eulerscheZahl: i then butchered the french grammar while writing there and pinged automaton

eulerscheZahl: who responded that he doesn't understand

Westicles: when I visited #fr: Stilgart: merci aux modérateurs de faire le travail et de me dégager le provocateur ci-dessus

eulerscheZahl: that was against you, not against writing English

Astrobytes: I saw that euler :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Thats so wired,

eulerscheZahl: but when you stay there too long writing english, they want to get rid of you

eulerscheZahl: had a great deepl translation there

Astrobytes: Unless it's of the utmost importance and imperative that it must be dealt with quickly

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #eulerscheZahl Yes I found it out how aplay ? : without if statment

Astrobytes: Or when #fr is almost empty

eulerscheZahl: original: CopperFr writes "please write French" (in English) deepl: fr->en CopperEng: please write English

Default avatar.png Maxim251: >Whole line now is shining at yelow, and still works.. i

Astrobytes: :D

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #import<iostream> int t,a=552;main(){for(std::cin>>t;std::cin>>t;)!(t*t<a*a||a*a==t*t&t>a)?:a=t;t?:a=0;std::cout<<a;}

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 117

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Hey, earlier was 116

Astrobytes: Good work. Don't keep posting it in case someone copies ;)

jacek: ban

Astrobytes: /ban everything

Default avatar.png Maxim251: sorry,

Astrobytes: Hey I don't mind, it's your code

Default avatar.png Maxim251: but there must be if statment in one place, now again I get 116

Default avatar.png Maxim251: 114

eulerscheZahl: i found it again!

Astrobytes: hahaha

Default avatar.png Maxim251: sorry 116 because I try lower value for a, but is not passing validator 2 with big numbers

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Then Oficially 116 and my brain want now jump out from my head

Stilgart: Westicles: you are not welcome on #fr, indeed

Westicles: you speak for #fr?

Westicles: self-appointed authority as usual

Default avatar.png Maxim251: Thats insane, that ruby can make 49 characters and pas all tests.. There are 1000 peoples with similar resultat, then second place is yavascript 60 characters

Stilgart: self-appointed bastard as usual :)

Westicles: :)

struct: Maxim251 there are shorter than 49 chars

Astrobytes: guys, guys, come on. Not in public eh

MSmits: #catfight

MSmits: I made channel for you

Westicles: We are just joking around, we made up


MSmits: o

pb4: Anybody understands that nextFloat() function ?

Stilgart: Astrobytes: did the moderators do anything yet ?

Default avatar.png Maxim251: #struct Ples dont tell me that stuff... I try kep my brain in place...

pb4: What's the range of the float number that is generated ?

LastRick: Holy moley, while you guys were fighting, I solved Thor 2. What a day, first the stupid cat and now this.

MSmits: do you mean the cat puzzle?

MSmits: or did your cat do something

LastRick: HAH, yes the stupid pixel perfect cat puzzle

MSmits: I'm just asking because euler's cat does stuff

darkhorse64: I have a perl at 48

darkhorse64: oops scroll

MSmits: that sounds like you're an old oyster

LastRick: yes, eulers cat will soon be motioning it is time "fur" sleep (SWIDT)

Astrobytes: MSmits: :rofl:

eulerscheZahl: this morning my cat puked in my room again :/

eulerscheZahl: but not as bad as when she did it inside the open cat door

MSmits: thats what I mean!

eulerscheZahl: so it was inside of my room, outside and in the door itself

MSmits: it's a pro

eulerscheZahl: and i had to open the door and smear it further to get cleaning utensils

MSmits: so evil

MSmits: at least you dont use a roomba

Westicles: pb4, you making a run at NS?

MSmits: maybe he just needs floats

MSmits: we've all been there

pb4: Nope, just randomly saw this code on the forum

MSmits: you randomly saw code that generates random numbers?

DomiKo: is it [0, 1]?

LastRick: and those kind of pet stories are why I have no animals

MSmits: that you know of

LastRick: It doesn't work that way!

MSmits: some rodents come out when you sleep

MSmits: :mouse:

MSmits: euler doesnt have that problem

LastRick: or theres a chipmunk in the parking lot thats really fond of me

MSmits: he only finds pieces of them in a puddle

LastRick: whats worse than finding a dead mouse in your apartment floor?

MSmits: two of them?

LastRick: half of one

eulerscheZahl: a had a night with 2 living mice in my room

eulerscheZahl: cat released them while i was sleeping

LastRick: "released"

Astrobytes: my Gizmo got a sparrow a year or so ago

LastRick: ROFL

MSmits: he caught mice and dropped them in your room euler?

MSmits: is this a reverse cat?

LastRick: hahah

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: Guys, can someone tell me how test case number 04 of Dungeons and Maps is not a TRAP?

LastRick: i dont think that cat knows how cats work

MSmits: Gizmo was your cat?

MSmits: Just wondering because thats the name of a gremlin

Astrobytes: Cats aren't overly murderous, they're more sadistic. Once the 'toy' has served it's purpose, they toss it aside

MSmits: dont feed after midnight

LastRick: Arian: You asking about "Many maps" test?

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: yes

Astrobytes: That's who she's named after MSmits. The one in my avatar

MSmits: ohh ok

Astrobytes: You can't see her chin here, but it's big like Gizmo

MSmits: so then you know why not to feed after midnight

MSmits: acid reflux right?

Astrobytes: Yes. Also applies to this one.

Astrobytes: hahaha

Astrobytes: pic when she was a kitten:

MSmits: cool

MSmits: she has a nice rating

LastRick: Arian: Haven't done this one in a while but it appears my code finds two solutions and index 2 is the shorter one, so it outputs "2"

Astrobytes: not overly no lol MSmits

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: ah

Astrobytes: I actually meant to post the pic link not the whole page :/

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: Ok, thnx. I'd think about t

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: it

DomiKo: pb4 that union trick is fast division by (1 << 32) - 1

LastRick: If it helps, map 0 also has a solution for that test but its the longer one by two steps. No problem

MSmits: Astrobytes be proud, thats around where Magnus Carlsen is

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: i think it's got a problem

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: i dont understand why it's not a trap

Astrobytes: MSmits hahaha

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: I'm not coding on it. Literally solving it by hand

Default avatar.png ArianPunk: There are 5 maps, with 11 by 11 in x and y directions

Astrobytes: arenabot localhost 31002

Astrobytes: woooops

Astrobytes: sorry

MSmits: ArianPunk



struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

jacek: .

Astrobytes: ,

Astrobytes: this is why we need the webchat. Posting punctuation.

jacek: so quiet

Astrobytes: Tends to happen when the chat dies.

MSmits: I can give you a new subject if you want

MSmits: help me improve my breakthrough evaluation function

MSmits: i rank 9, its embarassing :P

MSmits: got a whole bunch of features

MSmits: but doesnt seem to help much

Astrobytes: haven't done it yet

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: darkhorse64 had problems with it too

Astrobytes: you're doing an alphabeta

Astrobytes: ?

MSmits: nah same as always, EPT

Astrobytes: ah OK

jacek: you have endtables for breakthrough?

MSmits: i do

jacek: probably bigger and better than mine

MSmits: it's basically a triangular pattern to see if a pawn can race to the end

MSmits: it's checked as soon as a pawn goes on the opposite side of the board

MSmits: so 5th row

Astrobytes: seems reasonable

MSmits: then again when it gets on 6, 7, 8 etc.

MSmits: well 8 is a win

MSmits: but you get the idea

jacek: bunch of features, piece square tables?

MSmits: yeah i have penalty for a piece being on the edge, penalty for empty columns

MSmits: squares that are attacked

MSmits: home guard bonus

MSmits: vertical and horizontal connection bonuses

MSmits: but not bigger patterns

MSmits: it is all local

MSmits: I'd say Ntuple or similar would work here

MSmits: maybe i also just need to prune moves more

Astrobytes: you use ntuples on BT jacek?

jacek: when i had handcrafted eval, i had: piece, square table, if piece is H-connected on row 6+, penalty if piece attacked and not protected (and not my turn)

jacek: no, NN

Astrobytes: ah right

jacek: empty column? did you see that C# breathrough bot?

MSmits: yeah i think so jacek

MSmits: only eval example i could find

MSmits: probably it doesnt work

jacek: it did nothing for me, as well vertical connection. horizontal connection only further in enemy territory

MSmits: I see

Astrobytes: how's your littlegolem bt bot?

MSmits: is this to make sure your pawn doesnt go charging into enemy territory without backup?

Astrobytes: seems like it

jacek: yeah

jacek: though usually against weaker bot single pawn can rush by diagonal unprotected squares

jacek: well, rating 1807, 27 games so far, 27 won

MSmits: yeah but not early, when there's double rows

jacek: though 1 would be lost if opponent didnt make mistake

MSmits: whats littlegolem?

jacek: site with games you can play against players

jacek: correspondence, you get usually 24h for move


pb4: What is n-tuples ?

MSmits: is it cheating to use an engine?

MSmits: wow pb4 you missed a lot of chat then :)

Astrobytes: Nice. Is that against just bots or mixed? Not sure how they do matchups on there

MSmits: n-tuples is basically looking up a pattern on a board

Astrobytes: No, bots are indicated as such I think MSmits

jacek: they permit it. i bet you read paper about bt bot and they used little golem to see how strong is their bot

MSmits: actually pb4, you sort of did this with yavalath

MSmits: looking up parts of the board for 3 or 4 in a row

MSmits: except instead of looking up the win, you use the result as a key into an array with eval scores

MSmits: and use a bunch of patterns like that to form an evaluation score

pb4: Thanks

pb4: Why that name ?

MSmits: well N because there can be N squares you're looking at

MSmits: and tuple because it consists of multiple parts

Astrobytes: because they are tuples of n-size :D

pb4: Can they be non-neighbours ?

jacek: its just common name. if you look for n-tuples youll find mostly for othello, connect4 and 2048

Astrobytes: Sure, if it fits the game

MSmits: jacek i see, yeah i do remember that paper and the name little golem seemed familiar

jacek: yes

Default avatar.png saikoaizen: LO

MSmits: pb4 they can be anywhere on the board

MSmits: but it makes sense to have patterns with squares that affect eachother

pb4: Is there an automatic way to choose which tuples to use, or is it intuition ?

MSmits: well intuition if you dont use a NN

MSmits: NN's kind of naturally makes tuples, except you dont see it

Astrobytes: game-dependent, there might be well-defined patterns

jacek: actually both. you can use GA etc. to create N-tuple architecture and see which is best

Astrobytes: interesting idea

pb4: Gotcha

MSmits: jacek uses them in Othello

MSmits: there's a lot of stuff to google about ntuples in othello


pb4: Maybe I should try and play one of those board games you've all grinded

MSmits: well you did join on yavalath, but then you stopped

MSmits: you did quite well there

pb4: Yeah, couldn't find a way to improve

MSmits: neither did i, my bot is about as strong as yours still

pb4: wut ? You were first, I was ~5th no ?

MSmits: except of course for the millions of locally simulated games to avoid early game traps...

pb4: ah

MSmits: i mean if i ignore the book :P

pb4: :D

Astrobytes: I was about to comment on that

pb4: I'll soon have a new PC

pb4: muuuuuuch faster

MSmits: good

Default avatar.png saikoaizen: Heyo

Astrobytes: so you'll be around here more then?

Default avatar.png saikoaizen: New PC dude, that's awesome

MSmits: I only use 1 core each though, for my opening books. It's more about manually adjusting things, letting it run for a while, inspecting etc.

pb4: Don't know Astrobytes, still have to spend a bit of time with the family :o)

Astrobytes: hehe, yeah pb4, always a trade-off :)

MSmits: he needs to build up credit with family, so he can then crush us in a contest

pb4: :innocent:

Astrobytes: hah

pb4: I also have a bandas AI that was 1st when it was still a contribution puzzle

MSmits: ohh nice

MSmits: the top meta uses endgame books now

MSmits: other than that its mostly plain mcts

pb4: Was kinda bummed that the author didn't take any of my comments into account and let an unfinished game be published

MSmits: was one of your comments the fact that the random is unbalanced?

pb4: Don't remember, it was a long time ago :o)

MSmits: ah, well that is the main problem

Astrobytes: I vaguely remember something but yeah

MSmits: I can solve some games at ply 7

MSmits: sometimes its a loss, its a bit frustrating


pb4: Wasn't willing to spend time on a game that was going to change

MSmits: "The game was accepted despite negative pending comments on the random game generation."

pb4: Either it's a contrib and I'm perfectly happy to test it, rewrite my code when breaking changes happen, etc...

pb4: -contrib +WIP


pb4: or it's been accepted, and they it shouldn't change anymore

MSmits: well if it's an improvement to the random generation, its an ok fix after it goes live, because that shouldnt affect your bot too much

MSmits: but mostly i agree yeah

Astrobytes: (link is original contrib btw)

MSmits: he did improve his random

pb4: iirc map size was changed after the fact

MSmits: increased I guess?

pb4: Yup

MSmits: because if it was smaller I could solve it on ply 1 probably

MSmits: very small branching factor

MSmits: and with the endgame books the game ends at 3x4 size

jacek: map was originally 6x6 but i think he changed it before accepting

jacek: also i think it was before the WIP option

Astrobytes: he did, yes

pb4: You have a bool[500 000] table for the endgame status ?

MSmits: hmm its not that big I think

MSmits: 3^12

pb4: 3^12 ?

pb4: That's 500k :)

jacek: 15

MSmits: oh right

MSmits: i do then

MSmits: it's a string, calculated locally

MSmits: heavily compressed

Astrobytes: physics you say Smits, physics eh

MSmits: :P

Astrobytes: :D

pb4: Compressed how ?

MSmits: symmetry helps a bunch

MSmits: factor of 8

MSmits: 10 results in 1 unicode character

MSmits: so thats a factor of 80 right there

pb4: Nice !

MSmits: i couldnt go beyond the 3x4

MSmits: because there is no 13 sized pattern

MSmits: and the next one would be 14

MSmits: which is 9x bigger in possible combinations

MSmits: also pretty rare to have a 2x7 situation

reCurse: Oh a wild pb4, rare sight

pb4: Hi old guy :innocent:

reCurse: :sweat:

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: hahaha

MSmits: have you been lurking while we messed with reCurse?

pb4: I might have :sweat_smile:

pb4: I might be lurking far too often

Astrobytes: yes, you should join in more

MSmits: yet ntuples were new to you

MSmits: i bet you dont know jacekmax either

pb4: far too often is not 100% of the time -_-

pb4: Nope, what is it ?

MSmits: jacekmax made a thingy

MSmits: jacek i meand

pb4: @reCurse : new computer incoming, many more cores

reCurse: I feel bullied

pb4: I'll probably give SR another go

MSmits: jacek where's your playground thingy that explains the jacekmax?

Astrobytes: best-first minimax thing guided by UCT

Astrobytes: looking now


reCurse: Maybe we should act like civilized people and divide game territory

karliso: I am also puzzled why it is 100ms and not 50ms on bandas.

jacek: theres jacekmax in tags

MSmits: karliso you mean it would save server time ?

MSmits: and have quicker submits?

karliso: No, it would make it less unbalanced.

MSmits: you're right though, the game does not get more interesting for having 100 ms

jacek: bandas is nearly solved

MSmits: ah yes

Astrobytes: karliso, did you give up on raic?

karliso: Astrobytes not at all

karliso: MSmits With 50ms there is a greater chance that a weaker bot will make a mistake.

Astrobytes: oh I saw you were a lot lower earlier, improvement incoming I guess :)

MSmits: yeah i got it karliso, good point

MSmits: I already sometimes see them make a mistake

MSmits: my bot will solve the game as a loss on ply 12 or so, then its a win at ply 18

pb4: Never thought about that "best-first minimax search" before

pb4: I like the idea :)

MSmits: it works fine pb4, i tried it on oware, my bot got to the same rank. I didn't optimize it as well as my other version so it seemed quite a bit weaker still, but maybe with more optim, or different eval it woul dbe just as good as my EPT

pb4: EPT ?

MSmits: mcts with early playout termination

Astrobytes: there may be situations where it's better than ept

MSmits: except my playout terminates at 0

Astrobytes: ^

MSmits: so its basically mcts with an eval instead of a sim

MSmits: its similar to jacekmax, except jacekmax replaces minimax style and my ept version adds up score instead of replacing

pb4: If you could suggest *one* of the board games on which to focus, which one would it be ?

Astrobytes: tough call

MSmits: what do you enjoy about a boardgame

MSmits: do you want one that can be opening booked

MSmits: this could be annoying

jacek: do you want to work on optimizing eval

reCurse: Is there anyone who could possibly enjoy that?

Astrobytes: I can think of *one* person at least

MSmits: :P

MSmits: personally i would recommend Onitama

MSmits: it's pretty to look at and the game has interesting mechanics

MSmits: no opening books

MSmits: also shouldnt take a huge amount of time

MSmits: oh and, minimax and mcts both viable

pb4: Don't really know what to enjoy with board games, I need some kind of intuition of what makes a move good, and I generally don't have that intuition for board games

MSmits: mcts with eval i mean

jacek: or breakthrough. bitboard friendly, many possible features for eval

reCurse: I recommend uttt then

jacek: ill take a screenshot then

MSmits: :grin:

Astrobytes: :D

pb4: I peaked at 80k unguided rollouts on UTTT, with instawin and instaloss-avoidance

MSmits: thats not bad

pb4: Wasn't good enough, and to be fair to reCurse I had absolutely no motivation to write an opening book :D

MSmits: in general i mean

MSmits: also

MSmits: uttt is definitely about more than just sims

jacek: teccles is good opening book

MSmits: theres people in top 10 with 70k

pb4: I seem to remember 100k or 105k to be the reference for the metric I gave

MSmits: yes, but a long time ago either people didnt say anything or everyone just used plain mcts

MSmits: now theres a lot of useful heuristics out that all help a bit. Together they help a lot

MSmits: and opening books are really not that useful unless your opponent is one of the best bots and they play deterministically

pb4: or maybe I should get back to Fantastic Bits :rage:

reCurse: Quality trolling

reCurse: Something I should aspire to

jacek: :no_mouth:

MSmits: what i meant was, in all the games that have a predetermined start, uttt is the game where books are the least useful

MSmits: as far as i can tell

pb4: So many games in the menu, I have trouble finding the ones you suggested -_-

MSmits: really pb4, do onitama

pb4: First time I need ctrl+F on CG...

MSmits: I had the most fun there

reCurse: It's right there in the search bar

MSmits: until i ran out of ideas

struct: :broken_heart:

jacek: try yinsh

pb4: oh wow

MSmits: struct, there is short term fun and long term fun, yavalath was long term fun :P

pb4: Never occurred to me the search bar existed -_-

MSmits: onitama was like a month, i think i spent half a year on yavalath

jacek: and how much on oware?

MSmits: mmh 2-3 months if you dont count the meta mcts stuff

pb4: I still have no idea how you handle transpositions in MCTS on Yavalath

pb4: All the ways I think about seem crazy expensive

MSmits: i dont know if it even works very well, it just helps me solve earlier

MSmits: it is pretty expensive

jacek: he uses it offline in meta mcts

MSmits: halves my rolloutcount

MSmits: or so

jacek: not in actual game

MSmits: no actually i do

jacek: :scream:

MSmits: but it just doesnt help very much

MSmits: its the only game where i do this

MSmits: in meta mcts it helps a ton indeed

MSmits: i like the early solves though

MSmits: thats why i kept it in

jacek: i thought of buying new computer, but there is no available cpu and gpu i want until january/february :rage:

reCurse: Yeah I'm in the same boat

pb4: I'll look up onitama

MSmits: euler made it

MSmits: which is one reason why its good

jacek: he *ported* it

MSmits: good eye for detail

MSmits: sure, the mechanics, but he put it together well with the free art he found

MSmits: it has a good style

MSmits: also they made sure a lot of unbalanced starts where removed. trictrac tried to solve all the possible gamestarts

pb4: gotta go

MSmits: kk nice talking to you

MSmits: gn

pb4: bye

reCurse: bye

pb4: Thanks for the suggestions :)

MSmits: np

struct: bye

Astrobytes: bye!

jacek: c-c-c-combo breaker

Astrobytes: Every. Single. Time.

MSmits: I know you reference killer instinct but i still miss something here

Astrobytes: breaking the chain of similar/same messages/posts

MSmits: ahhhh ok

Astrobytes: it was a forum thing initially iirc. Remember when we all used forums?

jacek: phpbb2?

MSmits: i never used forums that much

MSmits: wait no, memories come back

jacek: ptsd?

MSmits: i used them disguised

MSmits: like, inside a browser game

Astrobytes: lose the 2

jacek: hm?

MSmits: I played astro empires and utopia

MSmits: they had forums

Astrobytes: phpbb

jacek: well it was version

struct: states reduce quite a bit if I take into account that stones are the same color

Astrobytes: I always love your on-topicness struct

Astrobytes: It's a stream of consciousness thing :)

struct: yes, I just say what comes to mind

MSmits: you don't need weed struct

MSmits: you're a natural

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: lol jacek... I think I just found a line of perfect play for your oware bot, leading to a draw

MSmits: no wonder it took so long

MSmits: well there's no way to counter that

jacek: my bot plays it perfectly?

MSmits: its not a solve, but the entire line of play does not have any alternatives to keep searching. They all lead to the same seed count or worse

MSmits: well i cant be sure

MSmits: but it seems so

MSmits: I found one with re curses bot also

MSmits: he doesnt play it often, but when he does i cant beat him

jacek: in ancient africa you would be oware god

MSmits: thanks, I like that

MSmits: I am assuming here that oware abapa is solved as a draw under CG conditions

MSmits: awari is, but the rules are slightly different and the 200 turn limit might also cause problems

MSmits: I found that if you have 9 seeds left on the board, you can get a different end result depending on how many turns are left, as far back as 145 tirns left

MSmits: so its worse for more seeds

Astrobytes: déjà vu...

Cybersick: Salut le monde

MSmits: exactly, oware has deja vu

MSmits: loops

MSmits: you got it Astrobytes

Cybersick: Je vous invite au nom de l'ENIT Junior Entreprise a notre forum


MSmits: hes talking about star trek i think

MSmits: shoo shoo trekkie

struct: #fr

Cybersick: There is an interesting talk about the nasa engineer in a round table

Astrobytes: That's what I get for speaking a french phrase

jacek: oui

karliso: I am curious about oware: if you do openings + NN + endgame tabels code size is supposedly a problem and you have to make a tradeoff between thse 3?

Astrobytes: Cybersick: #fr for French links, also on discord :)

MSmits: I calculate my endgame tables in the first second karliso

MSmits: its not in code side

MSmits: size

MSmits: it is for bandas, but not for oware

MSmits: and I dont use NN

MSmits: thats the rest of the top 5

jacek: all top 4*

Astrobytes: pushed back down?

MSmits: wait what, did they put me at 5 again

jacek: robo added random

Astrobytes: oh, robo submitted earlier I forgot

MSmits: yeah i knew that

MSmits: i thought i went down to 4

jacek: SupSon submitted most recently

MSmits: ah yea i see it

Astrobytes: I've not gone down to 50th or something have I

MSmits: 13

Astrobytes: ah cool, not so bad

MSmits: supson is 0.09 above you

Astrobytes: meh. After raic

struct: Wasnt SupSon top at UTTT?

MSmits: at one time he might have been

MSmits: uttt improved a lot

struct: Yeah but is bot is broken now

struct: I think

struct: his*

SupSon: \ o /

MSmits: how strong was it?

Astrobytes: I may not get a hoodie but I get a t-shirt and I ain't giving up just yet

struct: rank 1

MSmits: yes but compared to which bot?

MSmits: did it beat nagrarok?

struct: yes

MSmits: that bot is unchanged

Astrobytes: good work SupSon

struct: it was around same rank as nagra

MSmits: ahh ok, then supson would now be between 5 and 10

MSmits: People really go wild on uttt, so any top 10 rank is like being nr 1 in a different board game

Astrobytes: We should ping SupSon again

SupSon: what up

MSmits: we're out of subjects to talk about so we picked you

struct: About UTTT

Astrobytes: just thought I'd ping you again since you had so many mentions in the past few minutes :D

struct: your bot is broken for a while

SupSon: yea some compiler change

SupSon: broke me

struct: maybe when the sqrt thing changed?

struct: or something else

MSmits: hard to fix?

Astrobytes: sqrt thing changed?

struct: it was when c++ updated I think

struct: Before you didnt need to include cmath

jacek: he uses complex numbers

MSmits: ohh, yes, be careful about the i

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: loop using j

MSmits: or k to be safe

Astrobytes: that was ages ago struct

SupSon: does karliso on uttt just have the best opening book

MSmits: no

MSmits: i dont think so

jacek: i bet he uses teccles

Astrobytes: ask him yourself, you pinged him :)

MSmits: when he did have an opening book, i wrecked him 100%, then he turned it off and i had no chance

MSmits: he was strong even without teccles

Astrobytes: I remember that

MSmits: my bot in uttt is 3rd even without book

SupSon: what's teccles

struct: force opponent to play on the board you just played

MSmits: its a heuristic

MSmits: only when the board is empty

MSmits: so always play on the mid edge of mid board and corner of corner board

SupSon: Yes that seems like optimal play for the early game

MSmits: lots of meta mcts confirms this

jacek: my bot does it automatically given few seconds of thinking

MSmits: mine doesnt, what magic is this jacek?

MSmits: you also dont use a lot of sims

Astrobytes: Pony Magic

jacek: yeah, seeing people mentioning 100k on second turn makes me think if i count them properly

SupSon: Is teccles an acronym or something?

MSmits: its a player

Astrobytes: Nah, was (is?) a player

MSmits: i think it was used before him, but he advertised it

jacek: when I have 10k on second turn

MSmits: so how do you count this exactly

MSmits: is this plain mcts you are using?

jacek: 10k, so 10k rollouts

MSmits: and do you playout till end of game?

MSmits: or early termination?

MSmits: with some eval?

jacek: nodes in tree could be greater since i expand all the children, but choose one to do te rollout

jacek: to the end

MSmits: do you use any enhancements?>

MSmits: selection bias?

MSmits: or some kind of preference for moves in the random rollout?

jacek: 1-plu win/lose, selection bias for winning small board or not using move that leads to already ended board

jacek: in rollout moves that win small board have more chance than others

MSmits: what do you mean by 1-ply win/lose?

Astrobytes: check if you win or lose in 1 ply

jacek: yes

MSmits: in the random rollout?

SupSon: he means favor early wins

jacek: rollout and the selection

SupSon: and late losses

jacek: no

MSmits: i do it in the selection, basically that is mcts solver

jacek: a little more intelligent random

MSmits: but not in the rollout

MSmits: does it help a lot to check for wins in the rollout

jacek: well and mcts solver

MSmits: i know others said it works

MSmits: but they say a lot works and then i try it and it does nothing

jacek: i dont remember how much, but id say something like 55%-60%

Astrobytes: ohhh in conjunction with solver

MSmits: i dont understand

MSmits: 55-60% means the winrate for checking win in rollout vs a bot that doesnt, this i got

MSmits: but whats the conjunction with solver

jacek: thats Astrobytes

Astrobytes: this is on top of the fact he has solver implemented

MSmits: what is

jacek: i always have mcts solver

MSmits: me too

MSmits: i just wondered what you meant about 1 ply win/loss in selection

Astrobytes: there

MSmits: i mean doesnt the solver do that?

jacek: depends if you expand only by 1 child instead of all children

MSmits: ohh I see

jacek: and even if by all children, sometimes checking for win/lose is expensive

MSmits: yes when i expand and one of them is a win, the parent is a loss

MSmits: so i stop that iteration

MSmits: is that what you mean?

jacek: exactly

MSmits: ahh ok, to me thats part of normal mcts solver

MSmits: i am confused though

MSmits: two things

MSmits: 1) you're not the best at performance, but usually a lot better than 10x as slow than others

Astrobytes: now that you describe it thus I agree I also thought that was integral to the solver

MSmits: 2) how can you rank this high with 10k

Astrobytes: ^ that's the one

jacek: dunno

Astrobytes: PONIES

MSmits: you literally do the same thing i do except i have a lot more heuristics for pruning and move selection

MSmits: so i shoul dbe slower

jacek: maybe those heuristics suck

MSmits: lol

MSmits: no i tested them of course :P

Astrobytes: haha

MSmits: I have a feeling you hold the key to the rest of us beating kar liso

MSmits: and you dont know what it is

Astrobytes: *karlis o

MSmits: yeah i am being secretive

jacek: karliso?

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: no, the other one

Cybersick: Thanks for the info Astrobytes :heart_eyes:

karliso: I would like someone to challenge me, but there is no easy way I guess.

MSmits: are you talking about uttt

karliso: yes

MSmits: as you said before, I could just solve your p2 game again

MSmits: and win 100%

karliso: It is not deterministic

MSmits: it is not random either

MSmits: there are only so many lines of play

Astrobytes: de rien Cybersick

MSmits: especially with teccles on

MSmits: you make maybe 10 choices with some choices being fixed, some choices being 2 possibilities

MSmits: so i am guessing at most 200-300 lines of play I need to solve

MSmits: sounds doable

Astrobytes: I sense A Challenge

karliso: I guess you could make unbeatable opening book for p1

MSmits: I can

MSmits: I am messing with you, i already have one that beats you 100% as p2

MSmits: i just havent submitted

MSmits: its not that interesting to me

Astrobytes: Does it beat the others though

MSmits: no

MSmits: I targeted him specifically

MSmits: i can push tomatoes to 1

karliso: Well..

MSmits: with me as 2

karliso: I can change opening move and resubmit

MSmits: yes

MSmits: that is why i did not submit

MSmits: i was just wondering how big i can make it

MSmits: the book

Astrobytes: Do something other than booking?

MSmits: maybe counter most good lines of play

karliso: I don't really care... as I got rid of my opening book.

MSmits: it was the best decision

MSmits: your bot is great and a book would only hurt you

MSmits: i am still wondering what magic must be in those 3k lines of code

MSmits: i am still testing some other ideas Astrobytes, jacek gave me the idea to add random to my own bot so i can selftest

MSmits: i will try out that wincheck

jacek: add random?

MSmits: yeah, so i dont get overtraining issues

MSmits: like, a change only works vs myself

jacek: in uttt?

MSmits: yes, it happens, my bot gets pretty deterministic as well, just like karliso's

MSmits: so random helps


karliso: Here is my uttt rollout

MSmits: ohhh

jacek: endgames eh

Astrobytes: <everyone furiously saves to file>

MSmits: my precious...

Astrobytes: (except me, I don't care :D )

MSmits: i dont see endgames?

MSmits: uttt does not seem likely as a game to use endgames with

MSmits: karliso you still get like 400k rollouts with this?

MSmits: it doesnt seem like it would do that

MSmits: ohh i see it


MSmits: I'm going to have to stare at this a long time before I figure it out

struct: 400k rollouts?

karliso: I had a bug where I counted early rollouts twice

karliso: So I guess 200-250K turn 2

MSmits: ohh that is much closer to re curse

MSmits: he had 180k afaik

MSmits: do i read it correctly that you terminate rollouts early?

Astrobytes: that's your kinda bug struct :D

karliso: Not really... unless game is won by 3 in line

MSmits: oh ok

MSmits: did you improve selection somehow, performance wise?

MSmits: I remember you saying once

Astrobytes: just win detection not ept

MSmits: that you felt selection isnt always necessary?

Astrobytes: oh, answered, sorry, don't mind me

karliso: wdym

MSmits: and you left it at that, I kept wondering

MSmits: i dont know, i figured you maybe did random for the first few visits of a parent

MSmits: so you didnt have to do the uct calc

MSmits: or maybe picked with eval

struct: Astrobytes I guess its a normal thing :p

MSmits: the first few times

MSmits: I do think you said you used avx for selection

MSmits: but that did not help me much

karliso: I'm always doing UCT, but that could be improved I guess

MSmits: yeah maybe thats what you meant when you said that, that you thought it could be improved

struct: the problem with avx is that values wont be alligned right?

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: unless you completely mess up your node array

MSmits: never had the courage to try that

struct: But does loading the values take that much time

struct: for it not to be worth?

MSmits: it was about equally fast for me

Astrobytes: for calculating UCT?

MSmits: for doing the sqrts

Astrobytes: ah

MSmits: 8 of them at once

Astrobytes: yeah I know the vectorization bit

MSmits: the problem is that nodes are spaced out 40 bytes each or so

MSmits: so the visitcounts are also

MSmits: at least I think thats the problem

MSmits: you cant just copy a 8 float block

Astrobytes: time to consult reCache

Astrobytes: :)

struct: why 40 bytes?

MSmits: Its just a guess, i dont remember my exact node size

MSmits: it varies per game

MSmits: maybe smaller for uttt

reCurse: What year is this

MSmits: i knew you would say that

Astrobytes: '89

reCurse: It's not conclusive, you could know I would say that yet still be in the past

MSmits: reCurse you'll be relieved to hear that karliso actually had somewhat over 200k rollouts, not 400k

Astrobytes: Or thereabouts. Since Old John submitted his 30 year old Othello code I'm going with that.

MSmits: you can now sleep again

reCurse: Relived? What

MSmits: it was bothering you before

reCurse: Was it

MSmits: oh yeah

MSmits: we both didnt get how it could be so high

reCurse: No such recollection

MSmits: traumatic events tend to do this

reCurse: Maybe a past me travelled to the future then went back

MSmits: sounds right

reCurse: Can't discount possibilities so easily

struct: Its the easiest way to increase sims, I did the same for STC

MSmits: timetravel is the easiest way?

reCurse: With 2020 the way it's been probably

MSmits: how is it for you now?

MSmits: with work and such

reCurse: Work is fine

Astrobytes: Vibrating Thing Theory

MSmits: my job has been somewhat harder with covid

reCurse: Easiest part of the pandemic for me actually

MSmits: I mean i am happy to be at home, but when i was teaching with the mask on it was not fun

Astrobytes: Goobersymmetry, non-Branes and wiggly things that cause trouble

reCurse: Yeah I'd go nuts wearing a mask 8h a day

MSmits: one day, i accidentally brought only one mask, it broke just as i wanted to get into the train

Astrobytes: you use disposable?

MSmits: then i rushed back to get 4 more, just barely got into the next train

MSmits: and 3 more broke during the day

MSmits: usually yes

Astrobytes: jeez, who made those? Us?

MSmits: but thats mostly because my wife accidentally bought a years worth

reCurse: Why disposable? There's plenty of good ones that are reusable

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: I know

reCurse: How do you accidentally...

MSmits: but we have them now =/

MSmits: she didnt do the math

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: they pack pretty tight

struct: she did ++sims;++sims;

Astrobytes: is this like winning a 10 year supply of toilet paper

MSmits: something like that, except toiletpaper is way bigger

Astrobytes: Well, yeah. That's something at least.

MSmits: anyway the strings are glued and sometimes the glue lets go

Astrobytes: string theory for ya

MSmits: yep :)

MSmits: i probably have to go to work one more time on thursday

MSmits: management decided exam classes still have to be done physically

Astrobytes: gluons turned to gluinos

reCurse: There's a pun that's just too easy there

Astrobytes: Really?

MSmits: ahh yes supersymmetry

Astrobytes: :)

Astrobytes: great subject

MSmits: because of the funny names you mean?

Astrobytes: Why in person?

Astrobytes: No, I find it curious

MSmits: oh, well in person learning is inherently better in most cases

MSmits: and these guys have tests after christmas break

Astrobytes: yes, but pandemic...

MSmits: i know, it will only be one day though, the week after thebreak it will be online

Astrobytes: Fair enough I suppose

MSmits: it's just annoying for me, because on thursday i will have 2 online classes as well

MSmits: also my CS class doesnt have a test

MSmits: so in my case it is not particularly useful

MSmits: also i have an online course

MSmits: so why bother with the in person part

MSmits: but the students are at school all day for other classes....

Astrobytes: Seems wasteful, but we're human right

MSmits: right

SupSon: you guys are humans?

MSmits: to a degree

MSmits: Astrobytes seems the most human

Astrobytes: Why? Cause I have a sore back? :P

MSmits: though when he said he is into supersymmetry for fun, doubts grew

MSmits: because you dont do most of the weird things some of us do

MSmits: it's a compliment :P

Astrobytes: I do RAIC for fks sake

MSmits: thats true

Astrobytes: Isn't that weird enough?

MSmits: yeah its pretty weird

reCurse: That justifies talking about uttt then. Possibly.

Astrobytes: I needed a break

struct: Did they add fog yet?

Astrobytes: Yes, that's round 2

Astrobytes: They just updated with this: In today’s update, we have fixed a vulnerability in server’s pathfinding: since server is aware of the game state, it could pathfind around obstacles that you do not see in fog of war. Now, server-side pathfinding considers cells out of sight range to be empty.

reCurse: Round 3 has game result decided by observation

Astrobytes: I'm not moaning, I've qualified for a t-shirt

MSmits: thats pretty good right?

MSmits: not sure how strong the opposition is

reCurse: I'm reminded of brood war tricks if my memory serves me right

MSmits: never tried raic

struct: I was thinking on doing

struct: then I looked at the game

reCurse: You could figure out where the guy is located if he decided to wall his entrance

reCurse: By looking at where your unit would go by moving there

MSmits: ohh

MSmits: smart

Astrobytes: heh heh, yes

MSmits: so you leave a little hole in the wall to counter this?

reCurse: There's a good reason you're walling

reCurse: To prevent run-ins

reCurse: So no, you don't

MSmits: well yes but its poor formation if they have to go through a small crack

Astrobytes: but it's really not SC this game

MSmits: maybe a small hole with some turrets

MSmits: tower defense :)

Astrobytes: And I'm not the best person to ask about the real meta rn, since I'm around 179th

reCurse: What is the real meta Astrobytes

MSmits: we dont need the best person

Astrobytes: Turret rush!

reCurse: So how is that not SC again?

Astrobytes: It's not the meta I only said that to bait you

reCurse: Real bunch of meanies today in the chat

reCurse: Must be MSmits presence

Astrobytes: :D

Astrobytes: speaking of which, nice to have you back MSmits

Astrobytes: in chat

MSmits: thanks Astrobytes, feels good to be back

MSmits: might still not be as active as i want to be. Getting this degree takes more time than i expected

MSmits: I got about 6hrs a week work relief to do it, but it takes more than 6 hrs a week


karliso: Sharpen your uttt tactis here

Astrobytes: seriously though, meta seems to be ranged units only, just one barracks (which I was surprised about and am exploring), careful supply depot placement and targeting enemies well

Astrobytes: haha. The man.

Astrobytes: Anything to add to that RAIC meta karliso?

karliso: I thought walls are useless

MSmits: lol karliso, i like it, but what is your point with this github?

DomiKo: How that happened that we have learned that much about UTTT today

Astrobytes: Thought? You have started to use them?

Astrobytes: Walls and turrets seemed useless tbh

karliso: I collected pictures of "tactics" and made probably first uttt tactics quiz.

Astrobytes: The former more than the latter

MSmits: ohh, it reads a lot like a chess puzzle indeed

MSmits: I might do something like this for yavalath

MSmits: for my study project

Astrobytes: 5D Super Lavayath

MSmits: with the volcano!

Astrobytes: Supersymmetry! Now that would add something

Astrobytes: Scratch that. My brain started overheating at the possibilities

MSmits: karliso i was worried you shared your bot when you posted that gith

Astrobytes: Have more faith

MSmits: earlier he shared his rollout

MSmits: thats why :P

Astrobytes: Worthless without context and understanding

MSmits: if you reverse more words, you'll go all yoda

Astrobytes: When did I reverse

MSmits: you didnt, i am saying thats all that's missing

Astrobytes: Worthless without context and understanding this is, hmm

MSmits: worthless without context, this is

MSmits: exactly :P

Astrobytes: sorry, it's late :D

MSmits: yeah, i still dont get why that guy thought our late chat is less fun

struct: Usually its not this active

Astrobytes: Nah, he's cool, he meant the non-european hours

struct: At around this time

MSmits: isnt this non european?

struct: Give it 20 more minutes and you will see lag ocmplaints

MSmits: ahh ok

struct: complaints*

MSmits: I guess i always miss this

MSmits: because of sleep

Astrobytes: after this point, unless a bunch of us are active it's full of idiots, complaints and trolls

MSmits: I see

struct: Did not do much progress on STC today

Astrobytes: yeah, the lag from the updates etc

DomiKo: struct you doing STC now?

struct: Im storing states until depth N like euler suggested

MSmits: you're really into STC struct

struct: DomiKo I have been doing it for a bit

struct: then paused

DomiKo: I see

struct: I wasted 1 week on trying to make a fast sim

struct: not worth

Astrobytes: don't do the bitboard thing then

struct: I wont

DomiKo: I wasted 5H trying to beat boss gold with wrong formula for score...

struct: My first sim had like 30k sims on c++

DomiKo: sim is 8steps?

Astrobytes: I could have sworn you had a legend bot before

struct: no 1 depth

struct: I had

struct: my bot is like 2years old

struct: Then I worked on optimization and never submited

struct: Now I decided to rewrite

Astrobytes: that was it

Astrobytes: well, anyway, I'm all done for tonight

struct: gn

Astrobytes: see you all later

DomiKo: See you

MSmits: gn!

MSmits: going also

struct: gn

Default avatar.png FrankGotzTank: Why does my program say that 1000 / 60 = 16.666666666666668???

struct: precision

struct: its normal

Default avatar.png FrankGotzTank: But it should be 16.66666666667

struct: Which language are you using?

Default avatar.png FrankGotzTank: C#

struct: hmm

struct: it gives me right value


struct: ah on CG its different

Default avatar.png FrankGotzTank: yeah right

Default avatar.png FrankGotzTank: That's pretty annoying

Kamikaze: does anyone can help me with ultimate tic tac toe? i was trying to learn the minimax algorithm but i dont know what to do, im trying to make it with python3

VizGhar: uf... you can't solve UTTT solely with minimax

VizGhar: if you just want to try minimax, try it on less complex problem (clasic tic tac toe)