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Yasho25: print("Hello World")

MadKnight: print("Hello Automaton2000 ")

Automaton2000: but you are welcome :)

Marchete: new ideas, jrke?

jrke: jo not new ideas just trying to fix bugs

jrke: no*

MadKnight: hey Marchete

dbdr: jrke: fixing bugs is a good idea :)

dbdr: MadKnight, are you working on a bot now?

jrke: but 0 bugs fixed till now or maybe some new i introduced

dbdr: cannot you reproduce those endgame mistakes that MSmits mentioned?

jrke: endgame bugs are too diffucult to fix in my current bot

dbdr: why?

jrke: code became messy

dbdr: time to refactor

jrke: yeah

jrke: dbdr:do you made any other change or resubmit

dbdr: changed

jrke: k

dbdr: do you resubmit just to see if you get lucky? ;)

jrke: no im changing small things and checking will it work or not

dbdr: probably you would get more benefits from fixing the endgame bugs

jrke: yeah the major bug or you can say weakness of my bot

jrke: did you went heuristic in endgame?

Vasyakin: 5051

dbdr: yes

jrke: means turns > 56 for game and 23> for a single player right?

dbdr: not precisely, but that's roughly when endgames starts, yes

jrke: ok

Default avatar.png Sevi1: hello

dbdr: hi

jrke: hey

jrke: dbdr nice submission

dbdr: thank

dbdr: s

Default avatar.png Sevi1: what you doing on this page

dbdr: nobody knows

Default avatar.png Ethan.B: hello?

Default avatar.png Marc19: hey

AntiSquid: hi

AntiSquid: it's a hello world page, now make your own Sevi1

Marchete: dbdr_: 8-41 against jrke?

dbdr: it happened

dbdr: thanks for being here Marchete so we don't need to be last at 0% ;)

dbdr: played: 34 lost: 0 played against #1: 0


dbdr: .

Marchete: :S

Marchete: good bless debuggers

dbdr: and those writing them?

Marchete: D&B seems a top3 game right now

dbdr: and top 3 make some stupid mistakes

dbdr: it's unusual

Default avatar.png m0rsmordre: hello there

Marchete: maybe people tend to go with simple heuristics

Illedan: My bot is dead stupid, no idea why you are not getting 100 % wins vs it :P

darkhorse64: No double dealing, chain/loop stuff ?

Illedan: Double dealing?

Marchete: there is a simple way to know if a line create two separated chains?

Marchete: lol Illedan_ :D

darkhorse64: OK, really dead stupid bot

Marchete: so: D&B seems a top2 game right now

Marchete: no offense :D

Illedan: I know

Illedan: But I don't get how they don't crush my bot

darkhorse64: double dealing is a trick to keep control when farming boxes in the endgame

Illedan: To split a 4 chain into 2 doubles?

Marchete: it's about control

Marchete: give boxes for a greater gain

Marchete: "sacrifice"

Illedan: Yeah, I do those things. But I never check if it is worth it :P

Marchete: then you are using it

Marchete: maybe you call it "Illedeal", but it's probably de double dealing

Marchete: the*

darkhorse64: When you farm boxes, you sacrifice the last two boxes in the chain to force your opponent to open a new chain and leave the hand to you

Illedan: Yeah, that is easy to do with a simple IF

darkhorse64: Actually, when there is no single box with three borders left, you are in the endgame and there are algos to ply optimally. The real deal is building chains so that you win in the end. Othersise said, it happens between move 1 to 56, after it's strictly determinisitic

darkhorse64: *Otherwise*

Illedan: Yeah, I was expecting the top to create those chains already :P

Marchete: :unamused:

Marchete: you are the -3vel of D&B Illedan

Illedan: Most advanced stuff I have is a floodfill :P

Marchete: wow!

darkhorse64: Have you heard about string and coins ? It's the dual game compared to B&D and it provides a data representation that allows esay chain computation

darkhorse64: No floodfill needed

darkhorse64: Unless you need for other purposes

darkhorse64: *need it*

Illedan: I just save the chucks and the number of edges, using it to determine my logic :P

Illedan: Didn't even try to model this stuff correctly

Illedan: Still using both edges provided for 1 edge :D

darkhorse64: No search ? Just reasoning on topology ?

darkhorse64: I mean no deep search

darkhorse64: No MCTS or Minimax have been harmed during this multi

Default avatar.png JBM: you like that phrasing

darkhorse64: a chat meme ?

Default avatar.png JBM: like we need more

darkhorse64: OK. Twice the same day is too much but I used two different chats

Marchete: depth = 0 bot :D

darkhorse64: TrueAI bot

MSmits: I gathered some statistics of the nature of simple loony endgames in 7x7 D&B

MSmits: Turns out that by the definition of simple used by those papers with heuristics that are written for 5 x 5, about 0,3% of endgames are simple

MSmits: meaning that if I generate 1 million endgames, I get 3k simple ones :P

dbdr: randomly?

MSmits: yes

jrke: so what you discovered from that Ms?

MSmits: that the heuristics as formulated are useless unless expanded. That will be my project :P

MSmits: also there is one heuristic that says if the controlled value is >= 2, you can just take it as the real value

jrke: how many possible outcomes could be?

MSmits: out of all the simple games, that is almost always true

MSmits: so the more complex heuristics are useful in about 0,02% of cases

jrke: so you will go with heuristic approach?

MSmits: sry, 0,002%

jrke: with expansion

MSmits: I will try it, it's a fun exercise. Not lookign good though :)

MSmits: bte

MSmits: btw


MSmits: thats one of those super rare simple loony end games where complicated heuristics are useful

MSmits: controlled value is negative, so you got some control switching back and forth

MSmits: people will actually take the boxes in the loops, instead of giving them away

jrke: yeah i think i will lupdate my bot to turn heuristic at endgame

MSmits: yeah, but that's not easy at all and as i said, almost never useful unless you expand on the current research knowledge base of D&B

MSmits: so if you succeed, you could publish a paper on it

MSmits: it's hard for me to even test if i implemented the heuristics correctly, because I have to look so hard for a suitable game

MSmits: I'm going to try and code a minimax to solve the end games that way and see if it lines up with the heuristic result

MSmits: then I can cook up some new heuristics, run a million games and see if they still agree

MSmits: fun fun

jrke: million games offline?

darkhorse64: If there are still 3+ connections, it's not yet an endgame but you have to search until the board comes to that point (or find an heuristic for these) right ?

MSmits: yeah, what i actually mean is, try 1 million seeds (takes a few seconds) and only take the games handled by the heuristics and minimax those

MSmits: darkhorse64 that's not true, a 3+ connection thing can be an endgame

MSmits: it's just not a simple endgame

MSmits: because you can't place a line on any of the 3 places that are empty due to neighbors

MSmits: (that already have 2 lines)

MSmits: even a 4 way split is possible in an endgame

MSmits: I found 2 end games with 12 splits in a single floodfilled structure, out of 1 million games

MSmits: so that's lots of crossroads

MSmits: lemme find one and share it

darkhorse64: OK. You are in the endgame if any move results in giving away a box

darkhorse64: something called a grid lock state


MSmits: right

MSmits: look at my example

MSmits: everything is connected

MSmits: still an endgame

MSmits: very non-simple

dbdr: single chain :)

MSmits: not this one, but sure, single chain is possible

MSmits: single chain is actually a simple end game

dbdr: right, chain is not the right word


dbdr: yeah

MSmits: yeah jrke, my heuristics work for that one :)

MSmits: but it's trivial

dbdr: MSmits, what year can we expect your bot? ;)

MSmits: 2020 hopefully :P

MSmits: honestly not sure

MSmits: 2 things can happen. Either I keep trying to do this heuristic thing and finally succeed. Or I give up and just make some basic search bot and give up.

MSmits: thats giving up twice :P

MSmits: I like a challenge though, we'll see

reCurse: Giving up is writing an opening book

MSmits: can't write an opening book without a good bot

MSmits: or anyway, not one that wins

dbdr: also I think OB is useless here

MSmits: depends on how others do their bot. if they dont use appropriate randomness, then it might not be

MSmits: but should be easy to do

dbdr: useless against decent bots ;)

MSmits: should be yeah

dbdr: initially, I meant rather useless for the general case

dbdr: as opposed to beating a few specific bots

MSmits: ah yeah, it sure is useless for that

MSmits: not in ever game btw.

dbdr: definitely

MSmits: btw, I do have two expansions on the basic heuristics that might work. If you want to discuss them, I am not 100% sure

dbdr: there must be a typology of games

dbdr: or we must create one

MSmits: sure

dbdr: does branching go up, down, or up-then-down, for instance

MSmits: that exists

MSmits: is called diverging or converging

dbdr: that has a name?

MSmits: yeah

dbdr: ah nice

MSmits: read that ina paper on solving games

MSmits: othelo diverges, then converges

dbdr: right

dbdr: D&B converges

MSmits: so, I was thinking, you always open 1 chains first, then 2 right?

dbdr: yes

MSmits: so isn't that also the case when the 1's and 2's are connected to a split?

dbdr: what's "that"?

MSmits: that you would take them first

MSmits: so if they arent isolated

MSmits: but connected to a 3-way or 4 way

dbdr: I haven't proved it's optimal

dbdr: just seemed logical

MSmits: me neither, but I did some examples and it did seem logical

MSmits: another one is

MSmits: say a split has only chains attached to it

MSmits: , for example 3 chain, 4 chain, 5 chain and 6 chain

MSmits: all connected by 4 way split

MSmits: would it ever be worse to open the smallest first?

MSmits: since the rule for simple games is to always open the smaller chains before the larger ones

dbdr: I always do smallest first

MSmits: ah yes and thats certainly optimal for simple games

MSmits: I am just wondering if it's true for games with splits also

dbdr: but if you open, you have lost control, and it's not often that you can win

MSmits: true, but there might be a bunch of loops you took earlier

MSmits: loops are beneficial for the defender (non-controller)

dbdr: yeah, and 2s

dbdr: well, 2s you switch

Stilgart: MSmits, dbdr: do you use a hardcode solution for CvZ ?

MSmits: sure, but 2's go back and forth so it only helps for an odd amount

MSmits: the penalty for short chains is at most 1 or 2

dbdr: Stilgart: offline, yes

dbdr: why?

MSmits: i do too, I even used unity for this one

Stilgart: i am trying to figure out what is the best non-harcoded score in the leaderboard

Stilgart: 700k sounds reachable without hardcoding

MSmits: Robo's non-hardcoded

MSmits: rank 24 with 463k

MSmits: my fallback solver has like 200-300k points only. It's a basic MC

dbdr: it's a thin line between offline and online spamsubmit

MSmits: I think the difference between nr 1 and lower ranked players might just be 1 validator

dbdr: theorem: as the number of submits tends to infinity, it is undistinguishable from offline search

MSmits: infinity yeah

MSmits: but the calculation time is used less efficiently

reCurse: Theorem: infinity does not exist

darkhorse64: You have to love cars, stairs, traffic lights and busses

dbdr: "tends to", not sure if that's the right word

MSmits: the difference between doing a meta mcts or just using the same calculation time for MC

MSmits: when you just do MC, you lose all information gained from previous iterations

MSmits: nothing is stored

dbdr: reCurse: of course infinity exists :)

MSmits: I dont even understand what "exists" means in this case

darkhorse64: AG, HC should be better in this respect

dbdr: has a precise meaning

MSmits: whats AG and HC?

MSmits: also what do you mean by precise dbdr? That exists means it has a precise meaning or that infinity has precise meaning

darkhorse64: AG->GA= Genetic algorithm, Hill Climbing

MSmits: ohh ok

darkhorse64: AG is french

MSmits: I see

dbdr: I was trying to come up with a definition of "exists". not saying it's the ultimate one

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: also it's your definition

reCurse: So dragons exist? I have a precise meaning for it

MSmits: we need to all share the same definition to use it in a conversation effectively :)

Stilgart: yeap, dragons exist

dbdr: there has been debates whether 0 exists, or negative numbers, or complex ones, ...

dbdr: at least in math

dbdr: if you can give a precise definition of dragons in math language, then yes they exist in math :)

MSmits: physics is the subset of math that exists

dbdr: troll :D

MSmits: maybe :)

dbdr: "what exists is what I understand" ;)

MSmits: solipsism?

reCurse: He's kinda right though

darkhorse64: phisics is to math what military music is to music

Stilgart: dbdr: it's a cylinder with spikes that spits fire

dbdr: isn't that ""what exists is I only" ? :)

MSmits: yeah

dbdr: darkhorse64 I heard that about military justice

darkhorse64: It's valid too

darkhorse64: Or you can say the same for Strauss and Mozart

dbdr: the mandelbrot fractal exists, but you cannot make a physical object of it

MSmits: the idea of it exists in your mind, but part of the idea is the infinity part.

dbdr: you can define it and calculate properties, you can visialize any part of it on a computer, ...

MSmits: yeah

reCurse: Exist in your mind is contradictory

dbdr: that's exactly the definition of "towards infinity": it's not that you can see it all at once

dbdr: it's that there is no end

MSmits: reCurse that hinges on the definition of "exists" again

dbdr: and you can always see further

reCurse: If that's the definition then everything exists

reCurse: Not very useful

MSmits: noone said it had to be useful

MSmits: well you just did I suppose

dbdr: there are very few things that can be defined precisely

dbdr: so it's a very useful concept

dbdr: infinite but few. like natural numbers compared to real ones

reCurse: So everything exists

MSmits: I had a discussion about that with a professor when I was in high school

MSmits: got a little heated

MSmits: I said there were more real numbers than natural ones and he claimed they were both infinite so the amount is equal

dbdr: define "everything" ;)

dbdr: you were right MSmits

dbdr: I thought you were the one who didn't get this

Default avatar.png LinhT.Nguyen: indeed

MSmits: no I get it, it just didnt make sense to me that all infinities are the same

dbdr: and there is a precise definition of "more"

SydM107: all infinities are not the same...

dbdr: they are not the same

MSmits: right

dbdr: reCurse derailed the chat with his obscurantism ;)

MSmits: allright gonna try to do some coding on this minimax, been a while since i coded one

dbdr: ok, report back in 10 minutes

MSmits: 10 hrs probably :P

dbdr: for minimax? ;)

MSmits: nah it's mostly the move generation

dbdr: right

MSmits: instead of playing lines i need to pick chains and loops to play

dbdr: or lines

MSmits: not in endgames

MSmits: simple ones anyway

dbdr: ah, only for endgame

dbdr: right

reCurse: Obscurantism pfft

MSmits: i need the minimax to check if my heuristics are correct

dbdr: "infinity does not exist" is basically rejecting science

reCurse: lol ok...

MSmits: what if you're saying the earth is flat and infinite ?

reCurse: Nice troll

MSmits: :)

Default avatar.png JBM: and of homogeneous resistivity

MSmits: damn now i have two things to google

**MSmits googles obscurantism and homogeneous resistivity

dbdr: the earth is fractal, it has finite volume and infinite surface

Default avatar.png JBM: got it wrong, it was "uniform density" sorry MSmits

MSmits: still doesnt make sense :P

MSmits: infinite flat earth violates gravity pretty much though

Default avatar.png JBM: you don't say

Default avatar.png JBM: just make gravity a constant uniform field, duh

MSmits: oh, right

Default avatar.png JBM: it's how *my* physics teachers did it

MSmits: that's actually an easy solution

Default avatar.png JBM: then again you might have your own tricks

MSmits: no no, that's what we do

Default avatar.png JBM: see

dbdr: do we even know what causes gravity?

Default avatar.png JBM: your mom

reCurse: lol

Default avatar.png JBM: there, done.

MSmits: perfect burn

dbdr: :clap:

MSmits: if you're asking why stuff is attracted to other stuff it's answerable

MSmits: it's the curvature of spacetime

MSmits: if you want to know why mass curves spacetime, we dont know

SydM107: more of a how than a why

MSmits: yeah, the how is hard enough

MSmits: without worrying about the why

dbdr: yeah, why question ftw :)

Marchete: nice output

MSmits: there's much simpler questions physicists can't answer

MSmits: like, what is electrical charge?

MSmits: we know perfectly what it does, but not what it *is*

MSmits: true for any elementary property I suppose

Marchete: I think any N chains of degrees < 3 are solvable with theorems

Marchete: but not checked

MSmits: < 3 or <= 3?

Marchete: < 3 like your example

MSmits: yeah they are for sure in simple end games

MSmits: thats what the papers say

Marchete: ok then :D

MSmits: but what if they're connected to a split

MSmits: 3-way or 4-way

Marchete: then it's not a endgame for me :D

MSmits: your definition of an endgame is different from what the papers say then

MSmits: arbitrary endgames are games where you cant place a line without giving away a box


MSmits: is this an endgame for you Marchete?

dbdr: MSmits:

MSmits: lol

dbdr: you know it?

dbdr: "these infinities are real" is also dedicated to reCurse :)

Marchete: not an endgame at all

reCurse: My point didn't make it through so forget it

reCurse: Easier to just say I'm a troll or "obscurantism"

reCurse: w/e

MSmits: Marchete you cant play a line anywhere though

Marchete: there is a special case of a loop joined to a ground chain

Marchete: but with a T

MSmits: without giving away a box

Marchete: I can't say a lot

MSmits: with your definition, you might have to wait till the last few lines till it becomes an endgame

MSmits: there's no reason those exceptions will be opened first

dbdr: reCurse: I spoke about "approaching infinity", which is the basis of calculus. saying "infinity does not exist" misses the point

dbdr: it's not "reaches infinity"

jrke: the thing you imagined is not infinity

MSmits: dbdr i understood about 30% of that song :P

MSmits: enough for it to be fun

dbdr: me probably 5 or 10% :)

dbdr: but still fun, I can see what it's doing

MSmits: whats cool is that the guy shared his masters thesis in the description

MSmits: so he's not just singin it

dbdr: yeah, you need to know a lot just to write the lyrics

MSmits: yea

MSmits: it's really nicely edited too

MSmits: could be a professional music video easily

dbdr: this one is good too

Default avatar.png JBM: it's one of his earliest

Default avatar.png JBM: they got much better

Default avatar.png JBM: i love the hamilton one

dbdr: he had to learn to speak that one backwards. definitely huge work

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: he sang it backwards

MSmits: I think

dbdr: well, pretended at least, for the lips

dbdr: I'm sure the sound track is still recorded forward

MSmits: i'm not sure, some guy in the description says there's a making-of video where he sings it backwards

dbdr: for the lips

MSmits: but i cant imagine singing backwards

jrke: i just made my 200th submission in D&B

jrke: gn

MSmits: nice jrke :)

dbdr: really? 200

MSmits: I have 4 submissions of which 2 failed in wood 2 :P

MSmits: cuz the bot was too good

dbdr: classic

dbdr: I have 40

MSmits: he sang it backwards


MSmits: dude is crazy

Default avatar.png JBM: i love him

dbdr: right, but if you reverse this track does it give the final one?

Default avatar.png JBM: he's one of the very rare youtubers i've actually sent money to

dbdr: also, the final track has many voices at once

MSmits: no idea dbdr, maybe he explains it in the video, still watching

EveryOS: On the home tab, how did i get the collaboration badge under "Unlocked Certifications"

EveryOS: ?

MSmits: maybe they thought you were EricSMSO, that's what keeps happening to me

MSmits: this guy

EveryOS: Ah gotcha, that's weird

MSmits: i dont actually think thats why you got the badge, but i do get confused a lot

IcedCrescent: does anyone have "Activating C# language assist" when choosing C# in the editor? It seems that intellisense never works

MSmits: I don't code much in the IDE, but when I do, the assist annoys me (using c++)

MSmits: sometimes the error reporting helps a bit

MSmits: I suggest you code locally for anything bigger than a puzzle

MSmits: especially in C# when you can run VS

IcedCrescent: Yeah, I retorted to using RoslynPad to write snippets (It's like LinqPad but free)

DoxLee: Hi

reCurse: I tried it a bit and it worked very well with C++ actually

reCurse: Light years ahead of the old editor anyway

MSmits: I guess I am just annoyed that it slows things down when you're not using it

MSmits: loading the IDE with it takes more time

jacek: reCurse light years are units of distance, not time

jacek: common mistake

jacek: :v

MSmits: I'd say you're trolling, but I am blown away by the correctness of your physics

jacek: so, no trolling?

Default avatar.png JBM: how far away?

reCurse: I was talking about a distance

reCurse: Should go without saying

Default avatar.png **JBM torn between "that's not how common mistakes work" and "that's not how analogies work"

**reCurse torn between sticking to Discord and still giving webchat a try

Default avatar.png JBM: any action on discord nowadays?

reCurse: No but the signal to noise ratio is much better

Default avatar.png JBM: i've given it a read this afternoon to marke much as caught up

jacek: why dont bridge discord and webchat?

Default avatar.png JBM: so i disagree

jacek: that solution would be light years ahead

Default avatar.png JBM: but i suppose it's self-selecting

Default avatar.png JBM: jacek: i'll tell the devs about it

reCurse: Webchat is mostly filled with trolls anyway

Default avatar.png JBM: or

Default avatar.png JBM: webchat is mostly filled with trolls *when you're there*

Default avatar.png JBM: hard to tell

reCurse: Case in point

MSmits: wait... are you saying you're a troll when you're here, but not on discord? :confused:

Default avatar.png JBM: that's my reading

reCurse: No I'm saying this is another prime example of trolling

reCurse: Or pointless discussion

MSmits: there's more points on discord?

Default avatar.png JBM: after the infinities' inexistence, that's rich XD

reCurse: Alright you guys win

reCurse: Bye

MSmits: I blame this on you JBM

Default avatar.png JBM: there's probably some gamification thingy i'm missing on discord

Default avatar.png JBM: MSmits: hey discord doesn't want me ok

MSmits: possibly

Default avatar.png JBM: by a very personal choice of him, dare i add ^^'

MSmits: honestly though, I don't mind light banter with no point and I like discussion of the game mechanics also

MSmits: of D&B for example

jacek: or UTTT

MSmits: are you trying to make sure re curse is really gone now jacek

Default avatar.png JBM: what? he's got a problem with uttt?

MSmits: sort of i guess

MSmits: not sure how deep it goes

jacek: deeper than your book

MSmits: oof

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm surprised, i'd have thought that's the kind of multi he'c crave

Default avatar.png JBM: readjusting framing... complete

MSmits: nah he doesnt like it and he does kind of have a point

jacek: its love-hare relationship

jacek: hate even

Default avatar.png JBM: i'd follow on the uninterestingness aspect of the game

MSmits: it's very hard to get a reading on that game as a human

Default avatar.png JBM: but there's a MIPS aspect i'd expect him to shine in

MSmits: some weak heuristics you can use, but other than that you just try all sorts of random enhancements on mcts to see what sticks

MSmits: he was hoping NN would help, but that failed also

MSmits: I still have one thing on my list for uttt

MSmits: wanted to try to solve it with proof number search

MSmits: probably out of reach, but the statespace is far smaller than most people think

MSmits: maybe if the advantage of p1 is large enough, you can put lots of heuristics in that preserve the win for p1, you dont need to explore the entire tree that way

MSmits: at worst, I end up with a nice solver to add to my meta mcts. Anyways, thats a long term idea

AntiSquid: what NN did you do msd9126

AntiSquid: MSmits

MSmits: i didnt, recur se did

MSmits: for uttt

AntiSquid: always pinging wrong person lol

Default avatar.png JBM: and unpinging someone who left

AntiSquid: ah i thought you did one for the dots games

MSmits: he also played millions of games in a meta mcts to find patterns to help design his NN I think

MSmits: nahh, i just ran a random sim to generate end games to test heuristics for

AntiSquid: how come there's so many people to ping but hardly anyone typing stuff in chat ?

MSmits: turns out the heuristics from papers cover 0,3 % of 7x7 endgames

Default avatar.png JBM: they're all on discord

Default avatar.png JBM: alternatively: "blame chat autojoin"

Default avatar.png JBM: 7x7 endgames?

Default avatar.png JBM: are we still on UTTT?

MSmits: thats the D&B size on CG

MSmits: papers were written for 5x5

Default avatar.png JBM: yeah that's what i thought

Default avatar.png JBM: i just missed the topicchange

MSmits: the paper results are general to any size, just not useful

MSmits: yeah I am lightning fast

Default avatar.png JBM: and subtle

MSmits: so anyway, this kind of means my bot is 0,3% done :P

MSmits: needs more heuristics

dbdr: 7x7x7x7 uTTT would be a monster

MSmits: how would the board switching work?

eulerscheZahl: AntiSquid 07:59PM always pinging wrong person lol

i didn't see this disadvantage of being a mod coming

eulerscheZahl: too many users online to auto-complete with just 2 letters

MSmits: also dbdr... uttt? with 7 cells per miniboard?

jacek: EveryOS?

MSmits: I think I know why you're not top 10 in uttt :P

AntiSquid: what's the secret to climbin in UTTT these days? quite sure my bot was around 60 at some point, #136 all of a sudden @_@

MSmits: nothing new

MSmits: I think top 20 or so have some heuristics

MSmits: though, the teccles heuristic is quite powerful, maybe that caught on

MSmits: if you put that in, you might get a good amount of ranks

MSmits: if you dont know what it is, it's basically an early game heuristic for player 1

AntiSquid: i remember it

MSmits: if you arrive at an empty board, play the cell with the same index as the board itself, so the opponent is sent to the board you're already in

MSmits: kk

MSmits: put it in

MSmits: test it

AntiSquid: send opponent back to same cell or something

MSmits: yes

MSmits: my bot has it, even though it's not perfect

AntiSquid: nah don't feel like it @_@ didn't even get the new games done yet

jacek: my bot went from ~15 to ~7

jacek: when i added this

MSmits: nice

AntiSquid: salad tomatoes #3

MSmits: it's mostly because in the early game the rollout-statistics are very bad

jacek: why tilde is more like minus here

MSmits: so you need a heuristic that almost guarantees a good move

AntiSquid: looks more like a tilde on ubuntu

MSmits: there's some for player 2, but they are worse, might not be worth it

AntiSquid: or maybe it's the screen, not sure


MSmits: yea it looks like a minus for me too

MSmits: at first i thought it was jacek-humor


jacek: nyoro~n

AntiSquid: or maybe there's different font installed


Hjax: recently when im home, the chat doesnt load on this site

Hjax: anyone experienced that before?

Hjax: theres just a white box where the chat is supposed to be

jacek: thats racist

Hjax: :thinking:

eulerscheZahl: black boxes matter?

Default avatar.png Ace-Code: :D

Default avatar.png Ace-Code: XD

eulerscheZahl: on a more serious note: chat is working fine for me

Hjax: its only my desktop it doesnt work on

Hjax: i have no idea why, same browser / settings as other places i log in

eulerscheZahl: any errors in the console?

Hjax: ill check when im home later

jacek: suddenly im loading #3859980 channel o.O

eulerscheZahl: is that a direct message?

jacek: dunno, it only says the chat is loading

jacek: MSmits have you seen the yet another hexagonal game?

MSmits: nope

MSmits: but i just randomly generated 1 million D&B endgames out of which 3322 games were simple endgames and tested my heuristics compared to a negamax and they were identical each time. Yay endgame 0,3% solved :)

MSmits: only took 10 seconds or so

MSmits: on c++ debug mode

jacek: you could be the guy who spent 8 years to solve 5x5

MSmits: sure

MSmits: for now I seem to be the guy that spends that much time trying to beat your oware bot

MSmits: some branches go 70 plies deep now :P

jacek: youre just trying to outbook it

MSmits: of course

MSmits: it's fun though

MSmits: worked on everyone else so far, your bot is quite something


MSmits: deepest so far, you're p2

MSmits: that one is actually close to the endgame book of 15 seeds

MSmits: but not that useful if I am getting wrecked on that branch :P

jacek: maybe i should learn about avx after all

MSmits: from what I can tell it's mostly useful for those physics games

MSmits: and othello

jacek: nn is just vector dot product. i think its autovectorized in my case anyway

MSmits: oh right, nns should use it too ofc

MSmits: it seems annoying to avx it by hand only to find out there is no improvement due to autovectorization

MSmits: in othello i did get an improvement, it was not autovectorized

MSmits: just a tad too complicated to do that I guess

MSmits: getting some stuff from the store bbl

jacek: for bt i do incremental updates which sped up quite

jacek: though for oware most moves change board drastically

jacek: (still not bitboards)

jacek: here at 63 frame i solved the win

jacek: its not rocket science when at the end only 1 move is available

jacek: for alphabeta i would need to use search extensions and whatnot, but in best first minimax i have this for 'free'

MSmits: ah yes

MSmits: mcts solver does this too, though probably not as efficiently

MSmits: what helps me a lot in these cases is a 6 seed endgame db

MSmits: could have done the lookup at the depth of frame 79, which means I would have solved it much earlier

MSmits: probably around 63 also

Default avatar.png Memo12334: in coders strike back. North is actually South right

Default avatar.png Memo12334: nvm

Default avatar.png Memo12334: stupid question

MSmits: it depends on whether you mean the geographic north or the magnetic north

Default avatar.png Memo12334:

Default avatar.png Memo12334: MSmits sir do u understand this function, I understand everything fully except when doing the 360 - a thing

Default avatar.png Memo12334: I know a negative angle can be seen as positive by virtue of rotation

Default avatar.png Memo12334: and the dy part

Default avatar.png Memo12334: sry I should have asked this in discord , is any admin online

Default avatar.png PayItForward: first day here trying to learn c. where should i start

Default avatar.png PayItForward: i have no experience

Jrix: Go on the doc

Default avatar.png PayItForward: I dont know what that is lol can i search for it

mr.mister: doc is short for documentation

Default avatar.png PayItForward: ah thanks

Jaek: Can i share my contribution here ?

MSmits: Memo12334 sorry, that angle stuff always makes my head hurt. I usually try a few things until i find something that works

MSmits: sometimes i am able to work it out on paper, but i lose it fast

kvitebjonn: i cant find where to change my avatar, help

norbi97: hover it on your profile, then you can click change picture

itzblinkzy: markyy is it okay if you share your code? I failed miserably :pensive:

itzblinkzy: alright then :cry:

markyy: @itzblinkzy sure, just tell me which clash

markyy: I did

markyy: it's not readable though cause it's shortest code mode :sweat_smile:

itzblinkzy: Yeah it's fine

Default avatar.png LinhT.Nguyen: yasuo change cai mode di

Default avatar.png LinhT.Nguyen: reverse kia

markyy: did they fix the clash of code chat bug?

markyy: it used to disappear during the contests

Default avatar.png zile151: i dont think they fixed the bug, but im not sure if thats a bug or a anti-collaboration feature lol

LordSahandii: hi

Default avatar.png thanhphuoc: hello