eulerscheZahl: Happy Caturday
eulerscheZahl: if others share the code at the end, you can just view it. not everyone shares. there are some bots clashing too. those never share the code
jacek: happy Caturday
Allis: eulerscheZahl I read recently that bots share their code if the person they're a ghost of shared; do you know if that claim holds any water?
dbdr: euler, the expert on all things clash of code :D
dbdr: Allis, did you fail at stopping clashing?
Allis: I sure did. :sweat_smile:
Allis: I realize euler doesn't clash, but they're obviously super-knowledgeable, so I figured they might know anyway.
dbdr: np, I was just teasing
eulerscheZahl: on the forum I read something along the lines that CG reconsiders the bots sharing code for CoC I don't know if that caused any changes. In the past bots never shared
eulerscheZahl: damn you JS I always forget "this"
dbdr: could you use TS?
eulerscheZahl: hm, I guess that would be an option
eulerscheZahl: but now I'm too deep into it to look around :P
dbdr: I dug myself into too deep of a hole the only option left if to keep digging and hope there's an exit on the other side ;)
eulerscheZahl: i'm mostly done with the JS part actually
eulerscheZahl: i can already see the light on the other end
eulerscheZahl: and all it cost me is some days and a struct :(
dbdr: what happened to struct?
eulerscheZahl: no idea
eulerscheZahl: just disappeared
eulerscheZahl: last then i saw from him was a :thumbsup: 2 weeks ago
dbdr: maybe just on and off by period?
eulerscheZahl: future will tell us
eulerscheZahl: will he delete the account that just got moderator privileges? :thinking:
Thyl: Hello !
AntiSquid: struct is on a journey to discover the next hexagonal multiplayer
jrke: Happy caturday :)
AntiSquid: hi FlatAuntie_c759
jrke: What is NN i read about it but didn't understood
MSmits: a neural network is a layered series of values (weights) that, when combined with some mathematical functions can learn patterns that can be used for all sorts of things
MSmits: your brain works similarly
jacek: stupid talkchess. a need to use dutch proxy to get there
inoryy: layers go brrrr
MSmits: on CG it is used on some multis
MSmits: inoryy is an expert actually
MSmits: he does this for a living
jrke: so it means my bot will learn by that?
MSmits: the bot learns yes
MSmits: but it's not obvious anymore what it is "thinking", unlike with a normal bot
jacek: well 'normal' bot can learn too. its all about weights adjusting
MSmits: the process is obfuscated by the enormous amounts of weights that are gibberish to us
jacek: being NN or just feature wieghts
MSmits: jacek true, but a "normal" bot has the patterns already set and just the importance of them is 'learned"
MSmits: a NN learns the patterns themselves
jacek: an NN
MSmits: your ntuple bot is the perfect example
MSmits: you decide the patterns, the bot learns how good/bad they are
MSmits: Robo's bot doesnt have ntuples. Supposedly they are in there somewhere, but who knows
AntiSquid: there are tools to visualize the learning and how different parts of the NN affect the output
AntiSquid: it's not 100% blackbox :p
MSmits: yeah, but the fact that you need tools for that, proves my point :P
MSmits: it's not 100% no
jacek: well ntuples are linear, thats thei limitation. also i think ntuples do some work that convolution network do, theyre just handmade and faster to learn
inoryy: in the wild NNs have shown themselves to be better feature extractors than human experts. That's basically how deep learning era started - with NNs winning competitions historically dominated by classical ML models with features carefully handcrafted by human experts. So it's a bit more than weight adjustment
MSmits: mathematically it isn't, but conceptually it is, you mean
AntiSquid: are you aware of numenta inoryy?
AntiSquid: HTMs and such
inoryy: MSmits I mean "it's a bit more than weight adjustment on a linear combination of pre-defined features"
MSmits: oh yeah
MSmits: of course
AntiSquid: just wanted your opinion on HTMs
inoryy: AntiSquid not impressed to put it lightly :)
AntiSquid: why is that?
inoryy: I skimmed the whitepaper by Hawkins et al, it was a bunch of wishful thinking more fitting for /r/futurology than actual science
AntiSquid: not sure, but probably know what you are referring to, however you got to start somewhere
inoryy: I'm open to revisit the stance once he publishes something tangible and reproducible in a proper peer-reviewed journal
MSmits: so that htm stuff is like string theory
AntiSquid: i think HTM is more like the unifying theory
MSmits: string theory tries to be that...
inoryy: i'm way out of my depth here but string theory seemed to have major scientists backing it and working on it through the years
MSmits: yeah lots
MSmits: but it's completely theoretical
inoryy: HTM as it is presented is fringe science at best
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: it's mostly a mathematical framework
MSmits: that you can fit universes on
AntiSquid: honestly, best to check it out yourself MSmits
MSmits: i should learn more about mainstream nn stuff first
MSmits: i want to do TD first though, more helpful for me atm
AntiSquid: they have regular video talks on the subject
AntiSquid: it's not as big as the other stuff out there but i wouldn't call it fringe science
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: gtg, visitors soon, ttyl
jacek: when MSmits gonna figure out TD, we all should run for life
AntiSquid: tower game?
AntiSquid: bloody acronyms
jacek: temporal difference learning
inoryy: As I said, I'm open to revisit it in the future when he shows tangible proof; by fringe I mean that right now it is not taken seriously in either CNS or ML scientific communities (as opposed to string theory)
jacek: charArray theory eh
AntiSquid: i see
AntiSquid: how's life in London ? any better?
inoryy: still self-isolating as much as I can; imo Boris opened it soon, cases going up again
AntiSquid: imo there's too much confusion about what they want to do :D keep it shut or keep it open
inoryy: people aren't taking it seriously; at least in central London parks are full of people sitting basically shoulder to shoulder. :/
jacek: im antisocial so im safe
jacek: cases are rising, and presidential elections were 3 weeks ago. if we could connect the dots..
Astrobytes: Yeah, couldn't have seen that coming right
Astrobytes: I've noticed here that the younger the person, the higher the likelihood that they don't give a crap
Astrobytes: Which is both bizarre and sad
dbdr: why bizarre?
Astrobytes: Well, the younger tend to be more environmentally aware etc. more "switched on", yet they act like this.
dbdr: from a self-interest point of view, it makes sense
dbdr: environment matters more in the long term, covid more in the short term
Astrobytes: On the contrary, covid matters a lot in the long term
dbdr: immunity should go up over time, no?
Astrobytes: It's completely new. We're only just beginning to find out the post-infection effects for starters. Sure, immunity to one strain. Look at influenza.
dbdr: sure, we don't know exactly
Astrobytes: The after-effects of covid seem to be neurological and cardiovascular
dbdr: for environment we know quite well
Astrobytes: That's something rather new as far as coronaviruses go
Putnam3145: covid-19 is probably going to become a perennial like influenza and colds and things
jacek: well covid is beneficial for environment
Putnam3145: i don't look forward to it?
Putnam3145: swine flu from the pandemic a while back is still around
Astrobytes: Well yeah, these things don't just bog off once they're finished
AntiSquid: maybe if the data about covid's influence on the environment gets more attention, there will be more interest in reducing pollution ?
Astrobytes: Of course not, don't be silly :(
dbdr: not sure I follow that logic
Astrobytes: dbdr the reduction in pollution during covid lockdown was off the scale
AntiSquid: there was less human activity due to covid, there's data collected to prove this
AntiSquid: i mean to prove the reduction in pollution
dbdr: so it shows it's possible?
Astrobytes: But you can't stop the oil flowing or people lose profits
AntiSquid: subsidize alternatives a lot more
AntiSquid: don't pull a trump on the environment
dbdr: the best alternative is energy use reduction
AntiSquid: "america first" my ass, it will affect americans too lmao
dbdr: which indeed must be what happened with lockdown
Astrobytes: Lots of great solutions, but nothing will be done. Profit first, worry later
dbdr: as you said, young people care
Astrobytes: *ideas not solutions
Astrobytes: World isn't run by young people though
dbdr: ideas change with generations replacing
dbdr: not sure it's fast enough though
Astrobytes: Very slowly. There are always enough of the 'old guard' to keep the dinosaur attitudes alive
dbdr: until suddenly there isn't :)
Astrobytes: We live with some degree of hope, yes :)
code_maniac: How you guys coping up with this pandemic. a sudden shift in lifestyle ?
Putnam3145: no shift for me
el19oc: haha yeah, sudden shift in lifestyle...
Putnam3145: i've been a NEET honing my programming skills for 7 years... okay, that's a lie, I went to college for a while then dropped out because I kept doing personal projects instead of homework
Putnam3145: which, let me tell you
Putnam3145: looks way worse on a resume than you might think
code_maniac: And looking at current situation it seems it's going to be like this unless we have proper vaccine and it's distributions to most of people on world
Putnam3145: let us hope that this can happen
el19oc: wouldn't mind so much if things just stayed like this
AntiSquid: pandemic doesn't affect me much, i am lucky that's all
code_maniac: I am using this to learn a lot of things. But at times you just get fade up with this as you don't have people around to meet :/
Putnam3145: I would prefer to travel, to be frank
Putnam3145: I sorta started doing it rather often starting a few years back and now it's just... not an option at all
AntiSquid: things can't stay like this forever, not sure what the solution is but obviously a lot of people will lose their jobs and the consequences might be really bad, unless there will be some major changes ...
Putnam3145: I was thinking of going to Brazil but WOW not a good idea right now
AntiSquid: not good to travel yet ... see brits went on holiday to spain again, a bit early
el19oc: I mean that seems to be the future we're going down anyway with automation
el19oc: not sure what the solution is
code_maniac: Yeah it scares me when i think of people whose job more of physical work based then computers they are going through a crisis. And on top of that if they don't have enough savings they are walking on a sword.
AntiSquid: going down with automation? i strongly disagree, there's always empty space to fill, it's all about how things are managed
code_maniac: Definitely we will find out solution to it. But this is a chance to fix lots of unnoticed or unspoken problems of world and societies.
code_maniac: Due to this lockdown and all, i do see there's a sudden rise suicide case around world. Including some big celebrities as well. Which again a huge concerning thing as society’s generally don't talk much about mental health
el19oc: man I disagree that there's always empty space to fill but I could be wrong
el19oc: even today it feels like so many jobs exist just for the sake of creating a job, that kind of work doesn't bring any meaning
AntiSquid: train people so they have the necessary skills then ugh
AntiSquid: don't force massive student loans on people
Astrobytes: Yeah, it's almost like they make jobs just to keep the general population working all the time eh... Welcome to modern neoliberal economics applied to outdated notions of capitalism
Putnam3145: yo can i do multithreaded stuff in this
Putnam3145: ah, dang
Putnam3145: ...what happens if I try?
Astrobytes: It's multi-core architecture but you only get 1 core
Astrobytes: Not much, it'll work but you won't get any benefit, or at least very little
Astrobytes: Many people have tried
Putnam3145: meh, i'll just write it exactly like I naturally would
Putnam3145: which, yes, involves a bit of multithreading
dbdr: Astrobytes: say hi to the boss for me ;)
Astrobytes: lol dbdr
dbdr: gz Astrobytes
Astrobytes: thanks :)
dbdr: finally you can chill in your own league again
trictrac: gg Astrobytes a boss only for you !!
Astrobytes: thanks trictrac, yeah, lucky me!
Waffle3z: clash of code chat keeps disappearing, is it supposed to do that
Astrobytes: Waffle3z, it's a known bug, they've not fixed it yet
aCat: nice lua code Waffle3z ;-)
Waffle3z: decay is a pain but it doesn't take a whole lot to move up places, went from around 250th to 32nd in 3 games
dbdr: what decay?
Astrobytes: CPs from CoC I think
dbdr: I know, but it barely decays since the change
dbdr: super slow
Astrobytes: Maybe he didn't play for some time
Waffle3z: long enough to decay from 1st to ~250
Waffle3z: wow tilde is literally a straight line in this font
Astrobytes: yeah, bit annoying
eulerscheZahl: how is ~ a straight line?
eulerscheZahl: https://prnt.sc/tsc7cp looks perfectly fine to me
eulerscheZahl: fix ur fonts
eulerscheZahl: let's try to define this as a function of browser and operating system Chromium + Ubuntu here
eulerscheZahl: now we need more userse
SPDene: firefox /win 7: look twiddly to me
eulerscheZahl: win7, wow at least it's not XP anymore
SPDene: I turned my XP box into an ubuntu one a few months ago :P
Astrobytes: chrome, win 8.1 (compatibility reasons before someone moans)
inoryy: chrome, win10
inoryy: straight line
SPDene: what font is it? Open Sans Regular for me (twiddly)
eulerscheZahl: 13 px open sans, lato, sans-serif
SPDene: ahh, yeah - if I zoom out, it loses the curves
SPDene: but also makes everything else too small to read :P
dbdr: Mosaic, MS-DOS, invalid scheme: https
AntiSquid: depends what you use either of them for xlr4829
jacek: is js any good*
xSoLD3Rv: hello world
jacek: you have beautifil avatar
stacked: how do i stop the stupid builtin IDE
stacked: its doing stupid stuff when i hit enter
stacked: like removing parentheses
eulerscheZahl: or suggesting completions. and when you hit ESC to close it, you have to click the IDE again as you lost focus
stacked: yes its so annoying
eulerscheZahl: i think we haven't found a solution yet, only CG staff can change that
Astrobytes: Only solution currently is to use an external idea
eulerscheZahl: my solution: offline IDE
eulerscheZahl: and Astrobytes was faster this time
Astrobytes: meh, had a typo, doesn't count :P
eulerscheZahl: and i needed 3 attempts to autocomplete you, too many as.. users online
Astrobytes: Just kick 'em
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Did crystal rush get any new inputs since the contest? My code isn't working now, and it says im not reading all the input :/
eulerscheZahl: i don't think so
eulerscheZahl: but the message that you aren't reading all inputs is new
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: "Warning: your code did not read all available input before printing an instruction, your outputs will not be synchronized with the game's turns and unexpected behaviour may occur."
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Never happened in the contest
eulerscheZahl: that warning was added recently
jacek: and it sucks
eulerscheZahl: i just compared my contest code with the current arena code. 1:1 the same
Astrobytes: If you're printing a lot to stderr try disabling it
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Nothing changed
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I can't even read my code now, this is embarrasing
Astrobytes: Double check you're not missing anything
Astrobytes: But it does happen randomly sometimes. I hate it.
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I checked all the inputs... I'm not missing anything
Astrobytes: Stand up, turn around 3 times, clap your hands and say "neigh". Sit back down, check it again.
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: No thx
Astrobytes: Your loss.
Astrobytes: Seriously though, try silly things like putting your methods in a different order etc. Like if you have something that writes before something that reads, swap them. Sometimes works
Astrobytes: (reads/writes from/to stdin/stdout that is)
dbdr: Astrobytes, ready for some company?
Astrobytes: at last! :)
dbdr: long hours?
Astrobytes: Actually been taking a wee break from it for a bit!
BrokenSamourai_d25f: Anyone got the solution for THE LUCKY NUMBER - https://www.codingame.com/training/expert/the-lucky-number/ ?
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I just reached top 2% of bot programming leaderboard!
Astrobytes: gg MCU
dbdr: maybe I spoke too soon :D
Astrobytes: BrokenSamourai_d25f Interview question right?
Astrobytes: dbdr: I honestly feel that pain
dbdr: ah, need to implement Ko rule
eulerscheZahl: mthree right?
dbdr: most of my loses seem to be Ko violations, which I knew I skipped
eulerscheZahl: wrong answer or too slow?
eulerscheZahl: some observations so you can count multiple numbers without testing each of them individually
eulerscheZahl: how many lucky numbers are there in the range from 600 to 699?
eulerscheZahl: there are 100 numbers in total. but some contain an 8 and are not lucky
YurkovAS: dbdr is not secret - what algo you use in Search Race?
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Every number except with an 8... so that's 100-10-9
eulerscheZahl: we have 2 digits to assign and 9 candidates each (012345679), so 9^2 = 81
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: = 81
eulerscheZahl: great EEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I used a diff method
eulerscheZahl: but same result
YurkovAS: dbdr thanks
eulerscheZahl: and that's a simple example how to count ranges and not individual numbers. for the given puzzle you'll need some more observations and not forget a corner case
eulerscheZahl: only because illedan couldn't upload 500 validators :rofl:
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I seem to time out on that puzzle
EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Maybe cus im looping through every number...
Astrobytes: that's more like it dbdr :)
dbdr: yeah :)
dbdr: ko implemented
dbdr: I still have one rule error, it seems, but rare
dbdr: the boss plays a move that I think is illegal, so I crash
Astrobytes: ah you mistake it for a suicide
dbdr: no, for a ko
Astrobytes: ah ok
MSmits: hey guys, question. Can people still use bash system calls in code golf or is this completely disabled?
dbdr: ko makes dbdr go go KO
eulerscheZahl: still possible
MSmits: i guess that explains some of my problems with getting a reasonable golf score I guess :)
dbdr: it does not matter in popular languages
eulerscheZahl: wait, i do it the other way: calling python from bash but i think the opposite still holds
dbdr: except for the top scores
MSmits: it's never worth it to call bash from python?
dbdr: so you can get a decent score without it
eulerscheZahl: it is when you suck at bash
MSmits: no i mean, for the perfect score
dbdr: I have perfect scores without system calls
eulerscheZahl: then it's most likely a bad idea
eulerscheZahl: and thor goes north now :scream:
MSmits: dbdr on the shortest languages only I guess?
Astrobytes: The North remembered
dbdr: I can check
MSmits: perl/ruby etc.?
eulerscheZahl: he got beaten by a system call in C#
MSmits: yeah but C# is real bad for golfing
eulerscheZahl: it was never designed for that purpose
dbdr: well, second in JS, but it's worth 200 points
dbdr: 199 points in C#
MSmits: hmm ok
dbdr: 199 in Java
dbdr: 200 in python
dbdr: all those without system
MSmits: python 200 on each puzzle?
eulerscheZahl: hardcoding for testcases?
dbdr: 199 in ruby
dbdr: each puzzle?
MSmits: is that worth it anywhere eulerscheZahl?
MSmits: yeah, temperatures, chuck norris etc.
MSmits: there;s 4 right
eulerscheZahl: what is "that"?
dbdr: you were asking about thor
MSmits: golfing in general
eulerscheZahl: i talked about thor going north
trictrac: gg dbdr, now 13x13
Counterbalance: for thor hardcoding was worth it (for me at least)
MSmits: yeah i was not trying to follow your discussion, i am just breaking into it for my own purposes :P
dbdr: sorry, misread
dbdr: thanks trictrac :D
eulerscheZahl: even with the new testcases added?
Counterbalance: i had to revert to 2x larger code ;)
Counterbalance: but i'm guessing that S is now N so hardocing might still be possible
MSmits: I got 77 characters on thor, best is 53
MSmits: python that is
Counterbalance: I have no idea how anyone can get to 46 chars..
eulerscheZahl: 117 :/
MSmits: wait no thats temperatures sorry
MSmits: 77 in temperatures :)
eulerscheZahl: 75 :P
AntiSquid: did thor code golf change or what
eulerscheZahl: other validators
Counterbalance: 43 :D (top is 29 - that's just magic)
MSmits: I'm just trying to get that top 2% for quest map
Astrobytes: ah I never noticed you were nr 1 in golf dbdr
dbdr: golf*optim ;)
MSmits: how did you get good at the code golf thing. Did you practice this before CG even dbdr?
MSmits: I know it's a whole scene outside of CG also
dbdr: never done before
MSmits: oh ok
dbdr: golfing tips $language
MSmits: yeah you can find a lot of stuff I guess
MSmits: read some of those
MSmits: not motivated enough to get anywhere as good as some
MSmits: just want a decent score
eulerscheZahl: the top2%
dbdr: start by having 5 submissions in popular laguages
MSmits: right, that at least
dbdr: should be easy to get about 100 poitns in each, no?
eulerscheZahl: yeah, 5 average scores is easier than 1 top score
MSmits: which languages do you suggest?
dbdr: C# Java C++ Python JS
eulerscheZahl: java, c#, python
eulerscheZahl: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
MSmits: are scores lineair with rank? Or is it like multi where you get very few points halfway up the board
dbdr: same exponential
MSmits: not that easy to get 100 points then
dbdr: but also same distribution
dbdr: not hard to be in top 10%
MSmits: pretty hard for me
MSmits: well i guess i can do it if i do 1 of those in an afternoon and spend a lot of time searching
dbdr: you do (almost) have that
dbdr: for the 2 languages you did in temps
MSmits: yeah but i spent quite a lot of time on that
dbdr: not enjoying it?
eulerscheZahl: golfing replays is more fun
MSmits: well it's relative i guess, i spend a lot of time on multis and enjoying it more
MSmits: it's not bad... just less fun than other things on CG
dbdr: right, it's a different mood
dbdr: the nice thing about golf is, you can spend 1 hour and get good results
dbdr: or even less
MSmits: get some at least, the startup time is lower
dbdr: for a new language, or improve an existing solution
dbdr: it's more self-contained than a multi
dbdr: shorter session
dbdr: the tips help a lot, really
x-N0: < 3
MSmits: they do
dbdr: you need both
Astrobytes: gg dbdr!
dbdr: thanks. was just visiting D
MSmits: what kind of bots do you guys use for Go?
MSmits: mcts with eval?
Astrobytes: hehehe, I'll work on it again tomorrow
jacek: apparently not only I have this problem http://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74393
dbdr: depth 1
Astrobytes: No search yet
jacek: for go? minimax of course! why would anyone bother with mcts for go?
dbdr: my sim is not even fully correct, but close
dbdr: jacek :grimacing:
dbdr: dead end
darkhorse64: MSmits:look for published puzzle solutions . There is a lot to learn
dbdr: Astrobytes, your no search is not a kind of depth 1?
x-N0: < 3 ; )
dbdr: what then?
MSmits: i did darkhorse64. Not really stuck or anything. Just surprised by the insanely short solutions others find, even when I think I did pretty well
Astrobytes: Just evaluating moves based on some criteria
dbdr: that just means choosing among some options
dbdr: that's depth 1 to me
Astrobytes: No, I don't simulate the moves
dbdr: qdepth 1 ;)
Astrobytes: I was trying to get out of writing a sim until I got here
dbdr: or rather, greedy qvalue
darkhorse64: I have improved mine over the course o several months
MSmits: the hard part is figuring out what is captured right?
MSmits: darkhorse64 you mean golf?
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: makes sens
MSmits: I'm just expecting too much success over a short period of time then :)
dbdr: MSmits yes, mostly
dbdr: not especially hard, but has to be done
MSmits: sounds similar to figuring out for disks in othello whether they are stable or not
dbdr: yes, like real golf, you need to practice for years ;)
darkhorse64: right now, I am struggling with Coc quests. As expected, I am slow and missing some Python idioms
MSmits: I was doing ok in clash, but not winning many
MSmits: 2nd/3rd mostly
aCat: darkhorse64 I just finished CoC questline today :D
aCat: Want a hint on 1st 3 times in a row?
MSmits: yeah i know it
MSmits: just start it fast
trictrac: dbdr welcome 19x19 ! now it will be as for othello ?
x-N0: Hey, this is strange, since the chat is activated I'm getting a request timeout from the server.
darkhorse64: 3 in a row and reaching top 1000 look out of reach for me. Yes please
dbdr: when opponent plays out of the 13x13 board, I crash because that's an invalid move :D
x-N0: It is just me?
aCat: a real one
MSmits: darkhorse64 top 1000 seemed easy?
dbdr: trictrac no, not planning to try this one hard right now
MSmits: you dont need to win to improve rating
aCat: top 1000 is surprisingly easy
MSmits: 3 in a row is harder
dbdr: I mostly wanted to get to the top league to have the full rules
aCat: but i got trick for this :D
dbdr: do you have something advanced, trictrac?
darkhorse64: MSmits: not at all. I am stuck at 1600
aCat: got me 3 clashes to get 3 in a row ;p
MSmits: darkhorse64 how stuck?
trictrac: only an alphabeta depth 2
MSmits: how many games at 1600?
MSmits: it might slow down a bit
darkhorse64: MSmits: unable to improve over this ranking
MSmits: hmm ok
dbdr: hardcoded depth 2?
dbdr: minimax will fall over with branching without pruning
darkhorse64: aCat: what's your trick ?
MSmits: darkhorse64 which do you win/lose?
Astrobytes: darkhorse64: Will you play Atari Go soon?
trictrac: no adaptative but branching factor is huge and it is mostly 2
darkhorse64: shortest is easier for me, I suck at others
MSmits: I do a little better at reverse I think
aCat: darkhorse64 join a clash as a first player - when noone is there. and probably the first one who will join be a bot then quickly lunch clash
MSmits: but shortest/fastest are meh
aCat: you will have 2 players against one which gives random solution so is mostly wery weak
aCat: you won't affect your rating very much
aCat: bot winning is relatively easy
MSmits: not a good way to get top 1000 though
MSmits: but yeah for 3 in a row
MSmits: darkhorse64 best solution for you is gonna take a lot of time
darkhorse64: I gain quite a lot of experience with golf for shortest. Google helps also a lot
dbdr: some bots are relatively good
MSmits: make a library of clashes
MSmits: after 100-200 clashes, you'll see repeats proly
dbdr: the hardest clashes are the first 2000
dbdr: then it gets easier
aCat: and I'm done
FLQ4: how do i print vars in python
darkhorse64: 80 atm for me
aCat: maybe not forever, but close to eternity
FLQ4: i am trying to solve a shortest problem
FLQ4: i mean like
FLQ4: print(mx, mn)
MSmits: thats how
MSmits: you figured it out
FLQ4: k thanks self
darkhorse64: Does the Coc quest unlock smth ? I have already won two levels and I probably should spend my time on bots
aCat: no other path to unlock
aCat: just xp
darkhorse64: Why sorry ?
aCat: "contribution" path after 4th
Astrobytes: why is that blocked by clashes?
aCat: it was so long ago i didn't notice
aCat: no damn idea
darkhorse64: Got it because I completed all other quests
Astrobytes: Doesn't seem sensible
aCat: probably because 90% of contributions are damn clashes
MSmits: true, but they arent hard clash quests I think
darkhorse64: hacker/god path are still projects ?
Astrobytes: yeah aCat, yeah darkhorse64
aCat: hacker path?
Astrobytes: yep, will be added at some point apparently
Astrobytes: with SEcret Things
darkhorse64: The rest has been easy: I only wrote a new version for CoTR, the rest was click and collect
aCat: I'm stuck at marslander
MSmits: i did all cotr validators by hand :P
aCat: and puzzle of the week
Astrobytes: I had to do some optim, some golf and a puzzle
MSmits: also have some default code, but its crap
aCat: other fully done
darkhorse64: This week puzzle is quite easy
aCat: I know
darkhorse64: ML is a lot harder
aCat: when is the change - monday?
Astrobytes: Still the Sudoku one?
aCat: ML I wanted to tackle from years
darkhorse64: Yes and yes
MSmits: dbdr after you said beam search for cotr I had a real real hard time resisting starting one. After you said it, it suddenly seemed easy
MSmits: couldnt get it out of my head
aCat: BTW - let someone finally approve myy contribution :crying_cat_face:
Astrobytes: Ah I've not written anything for it yet
aCat: MSmits darkhorse64 new optim is intown
eulerscheZahl: be patient aCat
MSmits: which one is that?
aCat: cats are not patient :D
eulerscheZahl: better a careful review than a rushed approval
eulerscheZahl: same game, optim
Astrobytes: Like a certain Radek... :P
MSmits: top of my list is currently breakthrough, which is also his
darkhorse64: you gain XP while waiting
MSmits: oh i thought you said it was darkhorse64's optim
eulerscheZahl: i guess that's the whole point of the troll castle game
dbdr: it's a troll contrib
Astrobytes: Farmer JBM
aCat: make fake accounts and give approves to yourself :P
eulerscheZahl: 87 upvotes so far
eulerscheZahl: the contributions with the most is space maze with 88
MSmits: looks cool aCat
aCat: more will be comeing
Astrobytes: A wild cegprakash appears!
cegprakash: does anyone remember me
aCat: new AI4Games with grant new cg-based lab classes
MSmits: i cannot forget, no matter how hard I try
darkhorse64: We all do
cegprakash: what's hot these days
cegprakash: been long time I was away
Astrobytes: The sun mostly
cegprakash: I mean in Codingame
darkhorse64: and quests
Astrobytes: Yeah, check your homepage
Astrobytes: And try not to give us a running commentary :P
cegprakash: oh no
cegprakash: XP introduction
cegprakash: let me try
darkhorse64: It will take you busy for a while
cegprakash: wow I got 10 xp just for clicking
cegprakash: looks like easy
darkhorse64: 4K+ XP waiting for you
eulerscheZahl: close to 5k even
cegprakash: I'm doing a dfs with my mouse
MSmits: good one
eulerscheZahl: i did a BFS to fill the waiting time for the next quest to reveal
MSmits: anyone do A*?
MSmits: not me though, I did a random walk
darkhorse64: I did, Coc Path is costly
Waffle3z: I still haven't done the mars lander 2
MSmits: optim is hardest for me yeah
MSmits: is mars lander 2 part of quest path?
cegprakash: I completed only 1 quest
cegprakash: AI quest
MSmits: oh crap
Astrobytes: Fix it ceg
MSmits: thats gonna be hard for me, marslander optim that is
MSmits: doesnt that need ga?
MSmits: i guess so
MSmits: hmm, that might be a good way to pick up a GA example to learn from
cegprakash: COC is the toughest quest?
MSmits: not for you
MSmits: are you still talking about marslander?
MSmits: hmm ok
darkhorse64: The good thing with GA for ML is that you strike three birds ith one stone
MSmits: which 3 birds?
MSmits: also why the animal cruelty
darkhorse64: ML2,ML3, ML optim
Astrobytes: !banned for cruelty
MSmits: ah i already solved ml2
MSmits: with heuristics
MSmits: why am i set?
MSmits: dont i need a minimum score?
MSmits: oh, then I'm done!
MSmits: I even got the achiev
MSmits: for least fuel somewhere
MSmits: below some value fuel
MSmits: dont remember exactly
eulerscheZahl: 300 fuel left
MSmits: no i think also for ml2
darkhorse64: Yeah, you get some more feathers
MSmits: from the birds?
Waffle3z: I need 10 more achievements for the 100 achievements
Astrobytes: Go forth and achieve!
dbdr: achieve is a PL?
eulerscheZahl: write some forum posts and collect likes
Waffle3z: pretty sure I already did that
Waffle3z: where can I see what the achievements are
Astrobytes: Farm some language achievements perhaps
eulerscheZahl: 5 even i think
dbdr: invite 100 people
darkhorse64: I even solve ML1 with my GA adapted to a one dimensional problem, 321 fuel left
Astrobytes: Wig Lander 2
Astrobytes: Good optim game idea. Land the wig on the moving owner.
Astrobytes: Bald Troll Lander
Astrobytes: Mars Lander 4 - Mars Attacks!: Land Mars on the spaceship.
MSmits: is it that time of night again
MSmits: usually we start after euler went to bed
cegprakash: code vs zombies prob statement too long
Astrobytes: Oh how we missed you cegprakash
MSmits: cegprakash does this mean you're going to do all the things wrong that are explained in the statement and then complain to us about it?
MSmits: just wondering, it's ok either way
Astrobytes: Hey Illedan, moved OK?
Illedan: Still 20 boxes to unpack :(
Illedan: and no internett
jacek: hmm there was paper about training neural network the game rules
Astrobytes: Ah, it'll be done soon enough
MSmits: yes this is an improvement over alpha zero
MSmits: mu zero
Illedan: Yeah, we will get there :)
jacek: what if we spam submit bots for it to learn the game rules? no need to read the statement then
Illedan: I'll set up my office tomorrow and pretend I have perfect internet for a week
MSmits: jacek that is cegprakash actual strategy
jacek: way ahead of us
Astrobytes: Ceg Learning
MSmits: Illedan you mean to avoid having to read mail?
Illedan: I can still go to work :P
Illedan: Just double the bicycle distance
Illedan: 15 km
MSmits: mmh, electric I'd say
Astrobytes: Ah that's not too bad, except at hometime
Illedan: Downhill to work
Astrobytes: Ah jeez
Illedan: which makes the way home a pain :D
MSmits: yeah life goes downhill when at work
cegprakash: u guys still making cegA jokes?
MSmits: we stopped a bit cegprakash
MSmits: but then you came back
MSmits: it's because we love you
MSmits: it's because some of us love you
MSmits: think maybe I found a mistake or two 30 plies deep in oware :P
MSmits: by robo's bot
MSmits: that bot is crazy good
Astrobytes: Oh I forgot you were still running that
MSmits: it's starting to show +2 seeds as expected endgame value after 30 plies deep, which means he made a mistake somewhere I think
jacek: imagine how many crypto he would mine in this time
MSmits: also with cg bench he loses games now if i add the book
Astrobytes: May god have mercy on that leaderboard
MSmits: nahh, it's a lot of work trying to counter 5 nn's from p1 and p2 perspective. Will be a while
MSmits: but doable
jacek: 5 nns?
MSmits: yours isnt a nn?
jacek: robo agad recurs me, thats 4
MSmits: maybe i need to count better
MSmits: it's 4
jacek: i should put that in my book
jacek: your mistake
MSmits: sure, you have a book of my mistakes?
jacek: too big for code limit
MSmits: ye nice burn
MSmits: I also have a meta mcts running for othello btw
MSmits: but it converges very poorly
MSmits: took 2 days to even show which 1 of the 3 choices on ply 2 are bad
jacek: and you take symmetries into account
MSmits: it does eventually give the same best moves as the ntest opening book, but takes a looooong time
MSmits: even player symmetry
MSmits: player 1 and player 2 can have the same gamestate
MSmits: due to pass turns
Astrobytes: 2 days!
MSmits: so a node may be a p1 node yet also a p2 node
Astrobytes: Get that running on multiple threads
MSmits: nah I'm ok with it being slow, I like the observe the process :)
Astrobytes: Masochist :D
MSmits: btw, my live bot, actually follows ntest very closely
MSmits: one game i saw 16 plies in, my bot still followed ntest book, while jacek deviated 3 times
MSmits: but my meta mcts has a hard time getting there
MSmits: probably because it takes 10k games or so until the "exploration" effect wears off
MSmits: from a certain node
jacek: i like deviations
MSmits: yeah who knows, maybe they arent bad
Astrobytes: jacek the deviant
jacek: it sucks to do more learning at this point
MSmits: how so?
jacek: i can overfit my bot to 3-ply and win against 3-ply by 60% but it will be weaker i general
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: why does dbd r's bot beat yours?
MSmits: is it the probcut?
MSmits: you can get quite deep with that
jacek: dbd uses multi probcut and he has 300k wieghts
jacek: i use best first and can get deep also, but more blindly
MSmits: my best version against him still wins 40%, I have by far a harder time vs you
MSmits: so maybe his bot is not actually stronger than yours
MSmits: but its rps
jacek: so you have the power to pull him down
MSmits: yeah with submit spam
MSmits: assuming that what i do through cg bench is the same what happens on submit
MSmits: not sure how his compiled version submit thingy works
MSmits: this is one example
MSmits: dont remember what the param values were there
MSmits: another, somewhat better vs you
jacek: 2 crashes? their?
MSmits: very rare
MSmits: 1 in 100 or so
MSmits: i have them too
MSmits: and you do too
trictrac: Msmits you need to take in account that rust is not released compiled in CG bench So db dr bot is not @ his max
MSmits: I'm not sure trictrac, he sent a compiled version
MSmits: so it should be the same ?
trictrac: Perhaps i make a mistake but when i try online it's the case
MSmits: he compiled locally and then submitted it
MSmits: it plays worse in IDE ?
trictrac: yes It seems
MSmits: did you try for Othello too?
MSmits: or in other games?
trictrac: in other games
MSmits: dbdr said he did it differently for othello
Waffle3z: got to 100 achievements by spamming onboarding with different language solutions
MSmits: to give us a chance to test in cg bench
MSmits: he compiled locally and then submitted
MSmits: so all optimizations should work?
trictrac: ok good news
trictrac: we have the real power in cg bench
MSmits: yeah, but only because he lets us do that
jacek: he compiled to fit his 300k weights, not for out convinience
MSmits: it's nice
MSmits: oh ok
MSmits: jacek destroying my faith in humanity once again
MSmits: that deviant
trictrac: how to put 300 k weights in 100Ko of code !?
MSmits: he said they pack well
MSmits: btw trictrac, you added an opening book right?
MSmits: was it ntest?
MSmits: or just a few moves?
trictrac: a very small one
MSmits: ah like yavalath?
MSmits: your yavalath book is very tiny
trictrac: yes very small
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: it would be real easy for me to use ntest to hardcode moves
MSmits: but i want to use my own program :)
MSmits: it's fun
jacek: where did you get ntest book? i think i got one, but its in weird format
MSmits: oh actually i dont mean the data, i just mean their program.
MSmits: your bots are super deterministic i bet... so i can just follow the choices you make and let ntest counter them, hardcode that and win
MSmits: but not gonna do it
jacek: ahh if just something like that existed for oware...
MSmits: much harder, your bots make very very few mistakes and most of them will be trained not to make their mistakes early game
Astrobytes: maybe MSmits will publish it :P
MSmits: if you train a bot, the opening game occurs more than the mid or late game
MSmits: so it will be best there, is my theory
jacek: one of my method is to train from the end
MSmits: but there are many ends
MSmits: and there is only 1 opening
MSmits: and because so many moves are bad and the branching is on average 5, you get a very deterministic, almost perfect 20-30 first plies
MSmits: so it's hard to write a hardcoded book for this
MSmits: because you need to go very deep to find the mistakes
MSmits: it can go 200 turns...
jacek: at the beginning i have random eval, but with 8 ply minimax i can have 8 plies perfect endgames, so i save those positions. then haveing endgame eval, i save and train earlier positions and so on
MSmits: hmm but why not just calculate a 6 seed endgame book?
MSmits: i mean calculate, not put it in codesize
jacek: im too dumb for that
MSmits: doubt that :P
jacek: but i use this method for all stages. just play gazillion games to get endgames, then to get pre endgames and so on up to the beginning
MSmits: sounds good
MSmits: is this common? Or your own recipe?
jacek: my own but i bet it was tried somewhere before
MSmits: ah ok
jacek: the other method i used to train bigger net is to generate random games, let my best bot evaluate each position for some plies, then match bigger net to those eval
MSmits: as for a hardcoded book. Even if I can find a mistake at ply 30 by your bot or Robos that guarantees me +1 or +2 seeds, I still have to play flawlessly, possibly to turn 200.
MSmits: well nearly so
jacek: so i.e. the 0ply eval would more resemble the 2ply search
MSmits: sounds complicated
cegprakash: oh I got an idea for code vs zombies
jacek: its quite simple. and apparently this is new kink in chess community
cegprakash: I didn't read the statement
jacek: stockfish nnue uses something similar
cegprakash: I printed random x y
cegprakash: then figured out the game
MSmits: ah I see
jacek: ceg are you good with reverse mode clash?
cegprakash: I am bad at any clash in general
cegprakash: reverse mode I suck even more
cegprakash: shortest is what I'm worst at
Waffle3z: did you have a reverse mode problem
jacek: but you reversed the code vs zombies
cegprakash: I see what's happening.. that's not reverse mode like jacek
cegprakash: in reverse mode I only see wrong
cegprakash: but here I see what's wrong
cegprakash: I found that zombie can never eat me
cegprakash: it can only eat humans
cegprakash: and I just have to save the human that I like
cegprakash: and let others die
cegprakash: like Trump
cegprakash: it's as simple
AntiSquid: ceg i think you could become president of the US if you wanted to
AntiSquid: was an honest opinion. no further comments
cegprakash: oh shit I lost in split second reflex
cegprakash: i got another idea
cegprakash: i need to do minimax
Astrobytes: Here we go
AntiSquid: minimax in clash of code?
AntiSquid: i am no expert in clash, i am really bad at it, but minimax in there doesn't make any sense @_@
AntiSquid: those are meant to be quick to solve puzzles
cegprakash: no code vs zombies is first step in optimisation
cegprakash: I thought greedy would work as it's the first problem
cegprakash: or wait
cegprakash: I think greedy can work
cegprakash: with some precomputation
AntiSquid: it's advanced for clash puzzles
AntiSquid: can't think of a clash puzzle where you'd need it
Astrobytes: he's doing CvZ tho'
cegprakash: I once did GA in a clash
Astrobytes: ofc you did
cegprakash: I was streaming
Astrobytes: With your prune array
Astrobytes: Much drier
cegprakash: it was some float search with accuracy of 4 decimal places
cegprakash: and answer lies between 0 and 100
AntiSquid: well i heard a story of someone doing a NN for fizzbuzz in an interview, sure you can say "why not" but you know why not
cegprakash: so I did 0 to 100 with a +0.0001 iteration
cegprakash: and searched for answer
cegprakash: it was a math problem
AntiSquid: iteration loop is an oxymoron
cegprakash: not exactly GA but a search
Astrobytes: Welcome back ceg, welcome back
MSmits: it is said that if you say something often enough, you will believe it
Astrobytes: "I looked in my pocket for the solution, wasn't a NN but I searched"
AntiSquid: it was a gradient descent loop
Counterbalance: tautology, not oxymoron
MSmits: yeah, tautology
Putnam3145: redundancy more like
AntiSquid: indeed tautology ... was relying on you Automaton2000 to correct my mistake, thought you were my friend
Automaton2000: i think it was just a joke
Astrobytes: Actually yeah, since an iteration is not necessarily a loop
MSmits: he thought you were kidding
MSmits: thats how stupid it was :Pp
AntiSquid: friendship is no joke Automaton2000
Astrobytes: well played A2000
Automaton2000: i want you to get the score
Putnam3145: if you look at machine code that isn't aggressively optimized for speed you will find that even known-at-compile-time for loops are still loops
Astrobytes: Thank you for that informative nugget
MSmits: lemme go look at some machine code, because that is some powerful statement
cegprakash: did anyone finish code vs zombies with less deaths?
Putnam3145: "aggressively optimized for speed" here meaning e.g.
cegprakash: is there a mode like that
Putnam3145: -O2 vs -O3
AntiSquid: Putnam3145 cheers, please get an avatar and welcome to the CG community
MSmits: cegprakash nope you just get more points if more humans live
Astrobytes: He does AntiSquid
cegprakash: oh damn
AntiSquid: ah i need to refresh, my bad Putnam3145
cegprakash: I thought I just have to save 1 human
MSmits: only 1
AntiSquid: putnam nice avatar, unlike JBM's
MSmits: but you get more points with more live humans
Counterbalance: the formula favours killing zombies more than saving humans
MSmits: favours killing more within 1 frame
cegprakash: oh shit so it's GA
MSmits: I did a monte carlo
Galaxy_001: convert your program into machine code. https://godbolt.org/
MSmits: that only kicks in if i dont have a hardcoded solution
Astrobytes: We know Galaxy_001, thanks :)
MSmits: monte carlo worked ok
MSmits: was easy to code too
Putnam3145: well that's assembly technically, however,
Putnam3145: i did mean assembly in the first place
cegprakash: i think it's a GA
cegprakash: choose an area to defend
cegprakash: then expand from there
AntiSquid: but do you mutate ?
MSmits: it's not really about defending aside from making sure you lure the zombies away from at least 1 human
cegprakash: but choosing the area is random
MSmits: it's about herding the zombies together
MSmits: and then killing them all at once
cegprakash: wait what u can herd :O
MSmits: they will follow you, if you are closest to them
Counterbalance: ah you have the rank i used to have there, msmits.. time to revisit (and cheat, probably, like the top 5 ;))
MSmits: you are faster
MSmits: I cheated too Counterbalance
Astrobytes: Cheat better
Counterbalance: not fair!
MSmits: my Mc was rank 200-250 or so
MSmits: it's over a year ago though
Astrobytes: I just can't do the validator cheats
cegprakash: i don't think it's called herding
cegprakash: it's still defending
MSmits: dont remember all the details, except i wrote a unity program that used a mix of hardcoded moves and optimization functions to get a good route
cegprakash: and then exapanding
Astrobytes: I don't mind or anything, just not for ,e
cegprakash: herding is no use if we can't defend the right humans
Astrobytes: Rules to live by ceg
MSmits: well Astrobytes, if you consider it in the same light as number shifting, it seems ok
MSmits: you still need to figure out the best route, that doesnt come free
Astrobytes: Yeah, that's fair. But leaked validators though
MSmits: i did it on cotr and zombies
Astrobytes: Still, freely available which evens the field
MSmits: not A*craft, still my contest bot there
Astrobytes: Must do that again, liked that
MSmits: I liked it ok, had no idea how to solve it though
AntiSquid: there was some CG meme with the keyword herding and i can't remember it :/
MSmits: i just did some DFS
Putnam3145: why the heck is my simulation moving backwards, i wonder
MSmits: with backtracking
Astrobytes: Time distortion. Black hole maybe. Run. Run away.
Putnam3145: by which i mean i just sorta implemented the movement code like they implied I should, in coders strike back
x-N0: Too much smart challenges for today, lets do some crud.
Putnam3145: but looking at the debug output
MSmits: Putnam3145 physics shows the universe is symmetric with respect to time and at the level of particles, you cant tell which direction time is flowing
Putnam3145: the simulated one is going PRECISELY backwards
Astrobytes: Precisely at the moment you observed it perhaps
Putnam3145: timeless physics is interesting but T-symmetry isn't actually a thing even in quantum mechanics IIRC
MSmits: CPT symmetry is
Putnam3145: *CPT*-symmetry is, which is where you can't tell the universe moving forwards in time from the universe moving backwards in time, and also mirrored, and with all charges reversed
Putnam3145: this is where that news about a "parallel universe made of antimatter" a few months back came from
Putnam3145: it's a valid solution to consider that time is infinite in both directions, and if you go into "negative time" past the big bang you get an identical, mirrored universe made of antimatter, where time flows backwards
MSmits: and it's also why in feynman diagrams anti matter is drawn as moving back in time
Putnam3145: but like, it's a *valid solution*
Putnam3145: there's no strong evidence for it
MSmits: makes sense
Putnam3145: or, really, even weak evidence, that news article was reporting on something which could be explained by many things, one of which HAPPENS to be that hypothesis
AntiSquid: where can i read more about this?
AntiSquid: any links?
Counterbalance: there's no evidence whatsoever that time and space exist ;)
Astrobytes: All solutions are valid solutions until proven otherwise
AntiSquid: there's no evidence anything exists, i am just imagining everything Counterbalance
MSmits: AntiSquid i just picked most of this up from an introduction to elementary particles by David Griffiths
MSmits: very mathy though
AntiSquid: ah i have that book ... was going to start reading it, but i keep procrastinating
Putnam3145: unfortunately there's no articles I can find that aren't clickbait "SCIENTISTS CONFIRM PARALLEL UNIVERSE" stuff
MSmits: found it
AntiSquid: ya i have the book already, but thanks :p
MSmits: it's awesome AntiSquid. I got to chapter 7 or so reading and did all the exercises up to chapter 5
Putnam3145: i literally could not believe it when one of the recent major video game releases had baryon asymmetry as not just a part of the plot but as the actual crux of the worldbuilding
MSmits: Higgs particle is in chapter 11 i think
Putnam3145: like, who does that
Astrobytes: For god's sakes Jim I'm a bilogist not a damn physicist
Putnam3145: i mean, I did think about making an entire RPG based entirely around, like, group theory
MSmits: we will talk about elelphants and giraffes later Astrobytes
Putnam3145: then realized I was slightly in over my head and started work on building an entire magic system that I wouldn't tell anyone was literally just quaternions,
Putnam3145: the fact that I am telling anyone should say how well that panned out
MSmits: panned is a pun?
Putnam3145: i feel like it ought to be but I'm not sure why
Counterbalance: AntiSquid exactly
Astrobytes: "panned critically" is a thing
Putnam3145: oh, it's because I'm adding my acceleration vector
Putnam3145: to my position
Putnam3145: instead of my velocity vector
Putnam3145: well, that would do it
MSmits: sorry guys, I did not know mentioning time would unleash the putnam
MSmits: I will censor the physics part of myself when he is online to preserve your sanity
Putnam3145: mildly perturbed that it took me no more than 12 hours to become known for being unleashed when certain topics come up
Putnam3145: usually it takes longer
MSmits: yeah welcome
Counterbalance: time always seems to run out very fast here on cg
Putnam3145: actually it's been 36 hours, oh no
Putnam3145: i miscounted an entire day
Astrobytes: PW - Perception Wrecker > CG
MSmits: it happens
Astrobytes: putnams perception of time has already been wrecked
MSmits: yeah, he just flipped his charge and parity and hoped he would get that time back but alas
AntiSquid: what? no. don't kill physics discussions in chat, that's like censorship, freedom of speech is endorsed here
Astrobytes: lol * 2
Astrobytes: Scientific discussions are indeed welcome
MSmits: yeah we do that a lot
MSmits: first time I find someone that knows what cpt symmetry is though
MSmits: well maybe if AntiSquid spent more time reading his book it would have happened sooner
Astrobytes: I'd heard of it, that doesn't really count though, putnam knew it
AntiSquid: well i would have known it too if i were spending more time reading
Astrobytes: Ahh the symmetry
MSmits: my two finger typing seems quite sufficient
AntiSquid: well the other book i got at the same time based on a recommandation was: "Weinberg S. Gravitation and cosmology.. principles and applications of the general theory of relativity"
AntiSquid: didn't start reading that one either
MSmits: sounds good
MSmits: can you follow the math in it? I am guessing so, but this stuff is not popular scientific literature
MSmits: it's actual physics for people with calculus, which you do get when studying CS I suppose
Astrobytes: Squiddy's good with maths
MSmits: elementary particle physics was not exactly easy
MSmits: ah well that helps
AntiSquid: when reading physics books i don't always understand the formula but if you follow the text carefully along with the formula you kinda understand what is being talked about from the entire context
AntiSquid: also some formulas are explained in detailed and proved step by step so ...
Astrobytes: True. If you show the proof it can be easier to follow, applies in many situations
AntiSquid: i also pay close attention to the conclusions and interpretations of the formula by the author, very interesting insight to take note of sometimes
MSmits: before I discovered CG, one of my hobby's was this:
AntiSquid: he doesn't just take the formula at face value ...
Astrobytes: You're wasted in your current job AntiSquid you know that right
MSmits: those are solutions of a QfT book i did some exercises from
MSmits: i typed them out in word equation editor :P
AntiSquid: nobody is wasted, i didn't put in enough effort to go further
AntiSquid: or i wasn't convincing enough
Astrobytes: Never too late
AntiSquid: MSmits ya i have difficulties understanding most of that
MSmits: it's a matter of time invested really
Astrobytes: I don't mean you are a waste, I mean you're not fulfilling your potential in your current job
MSmits: you probably could if you started from the beginning
MSmits: everyone here has the minimum intelligence level to get started and learn all of that stuff
AntiSquid: is there an easy tutorial? you know like tutorialspoint is for different coding languages ?
MSmits: hmm well you can get started at different points
MSmits: and it depends a lot on what knowledge you're missing
AntiSquid: mainly understanding and remembering what the various glyphs mean
MSmits: those are mostly integrals and symbols for wave functions i think
MSmits: yeah and derivatives
MSmits: you know integral calculus?
MSmits: not sure how far you got with that
Astrobytes: All the 'non-standard' mathy ones are from the wave function AntiSquid
MSmits: yeah, this is mostly basic quantum mechanics i think
Astrobytes: I'm having chemistry flashbacks
MSmits: it's chapter 1 and 2 of the book
MSmits: btw to be fair this was a harder book than elementary particle physics, but icouldnt find my solutions for that, i think i did them on paper
MSmits: doing these ones on paper is a nightmare
MSmits: i would try to write them out and then make mistakes and it would become unreadable
MSmits: yeah, that would probabyl have been better
MSmits: i got real fast with word equation editor though
Astrobytes: I never want to see word equation editor again. Ever.
MSmits: i didnt know any better
Astrobytes: I used maple or typed up my shit in latex
MSmits: i used to use latex but it was such a long time ago, i didnt want to relearn it
Astrobytes: Probably take less time than word equation editor :D
MSmits: i think when solving exercises like these, the thinking time is the bottleneck anyway
Astrobytes: Still, whatever works at the time eh
Astrobytes: Yeah totally
Astrobytes: I used to do everything on whiteboard first anyway
MSmits: i suck at writing on whiteboards, my handwriting is bad. I am lucky for being a teacher in the digital age
MSmits: lots of powerpoint
MSmits: i do some stuff on whiteboard, but I need to focus not to screw up
Astrobytes: Oh I'm terrible on classroom whiteboards, for my own use I'm good
MSmits: ahh ok
Astrobytes: "Can you write that a lot bigger please"
Astrobytes: Still have that issue at the conservation centre lol
MSmits: well, I did notice that whenever i hand the marker to a student, they are always much worse
dbdr: MSmits: is this an interesting problem? https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/nerd_sniping.png
MSmits: lol, yeah kinda
Astrobytes: mwahaha that is MSmits 100%
MSmits: electricity is not my thing, but this sort of trick does work on me
Astrobytes: Never noticed :P
Astrobytes: Anyways, I'm out for tonight. Take care all, bn/gn/w/e
AntiSquid: so mathematicians value more than physicists
MSmits: value more?
AntiSquid: see the nerd sniping png
AntiSquid: 3 points, not just 2
MSmits: oh right
MSmits: maybe it's harder to make it work on mathematicians
Ashraful: Anyone needs me as a helper for project?
Ashraful: at GitHub?
Ashraful: I am interested in teamwork.
Ashraful: Zafar Iqbal, I have detected you
AntiSquid: you can google for "github project to contribute to"
AntiSquid: or check the list on github directly, they have some list for beginners
Anth: Ohh, I like the new layout
Anth: everyone else in shock or asleep?
Anth: ok, react tomorrow then
Anth: What's hard?
CassyWu: is there anyone can see my message? how can i join a font-end tech group?
Putnam3145: what precisely does "group" mean here
CassyWu: actually, i'm new guy , have no idea how to play.:joy:
LeBaoHoang8A4: Hello, i'm struggling with bug in coders strike back silver league. That bug makes me turn around the checkpoint, how to fix it?