Hjax: jacek why are you awake
Hjax: i see you submitting to othello
etkgjt: ai là người Việt Nam thì để avatar lá cờ VN đeeee
HDit: !
css2st: căng
css2st: =))
TeddyMienTay: kkk
EMG21: i never have to do a recaptcha lul
tanmaycodernovice: is the site slow today?
Tim_McSim: Hello! :)
Arphnut: Hi!
SleptKing: holla
TyLuu: ae hay onl giờ nào vậy
Gavster: YO!
TyLuu: hello VN guys
CodeMonster0214: hello
CodeMonster0214: what guys
TyLuu: Viet Nam
JErin: Hello VN
AntiSquid: join #vn for vietnamese chat
AntiSquid: or speak in english on this channel
CodeMonster0214: ok
no39mz: hello
Zerp: what heuristics do you guys use in gitc? this is all the info i have access to so far https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/474665606
Zerp: under gameinfo
WINWINWIN: read the feedback and strategies thread, always a goldmine of valuable info
Zerp: where is it?
Zerp: wait i think i found it
Zerp: were you referring to this page?https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/ghost-in-the-cell-puzzle-discussion/2644/33
Astrobytes: Zerp:
https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/ghost-in-the-cell-feedback-strategy/2634
Zerp: just found it through google xd
Zerp: oh wow, didnt know you had to add a extra turn for every factory in the shortest path
Zerp: makes a huge difference
Zerp: makes finding shortest path a bit more complicated though
Zerp: not sure if it's enough to add a +1 in here
Zerp: dist[i, j] > dist[i, k] + dist[k, j] + 1
caubeloatchoat24: Hello how to choose game mode in public game bro. Help me :(( . Hate Shortest :((
Uljahn: game mode is random
Uljahn: but you can choose the game mode in private clashes
Zerp: just spend so much time fixing bugs and adding new features yet my new bot cant defeat my old bot that used broken code and random variables xd
caubeloatchoat24: :sweat_smile: Okay mate @Uljahn
Zerp: shouldnt i be able to do List.Add(object) for a list of objects?
Zerp: wait nvm it was scope issue
Uljahn: Automaton2000: that's a feature
Automaton2000: didn't know you could have a look at that
Zerp: automaton2000: shouldnt i be able to do List.Add(object) for a list of objects?
Automaton2000: i am just a beginner
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: hey Astrobytes
Astrobytes: hey MSmits, how's it going
MSmits: I am still fitting oware params. Looks like I found a version thats anti-Agade :P
Zerp: didnt automaton use to ping random ppl
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/4178732d-5891-4eeb-bfcf-9948aeefd9d2
MSmits: for some reason increasing my 1-seed param from 300 to 400 does this :confused:
Astrobytes: Nice! And it's not dreadful against the others either
Astrobytes: lol
Astrobytes: Those damn parameters
MSmits: yeah, i only increased it from 300 to 400, so other values might be better
MSmits: and still have many other params to try
MSmits: so i guess Agade's bot might not actually be better than recurs e or Robo.. it's just how the params are fitted
MSmits: all 3 are good bots
Astrobytes: That they are. I've been concentrating on Othello recently, haven't tried to see which params work against Agad e
MSmits: the only reason i do this is because i have the end game database now. My bot is different, so it needs refitting
MSmits: i wouldnt refit the whole thing just to beat Agade
Astrobytes: I always tweak to see what affects whom in what way, don't necessarily change my bot though
Astrobytes: Gives you a feel for what they're prioritising
MSmits: that takes so much time though, i try not to fit against any specific player, thats why i pick all 4
Astrobytes: Yeah, it's something I do when I'm killing time or bored :P
uvBoss: yelo
Astrobytes: grene
uvBoss: nyone got ideas on how i could use neural network for bot programming ?
uvBoss: xD
uvBoss: anyone*
uvBoss: not using algorithms but neural network
uvBoss: or gentic algorithms would laso be fine
uvBoss: help
Uljahn: yes
uvBoss: lmao tell me then
uvBoss: how do i train??
uvBoss: coz u only play once
Snef: yes
uvBoss: do i adjust the weights manually or something?
Astrobytes: Download replays. Train offline.
uvBoss: and how do i download replays??
Uljahn: GA could be used online with a simualtion
Astrobytes: https://tech.io/playgrounds/53705/contest-tools-and-workflow/introduction
uvBoss: okay
Astrobytes: And yeah, you can use GA online as Uljahn says
uvBoss: omg @Astrobytes
uvBoss: dat link
uvBoss: t so much
uvBoss: ty
tomatoes: and submissions has 100kb limit
MSmits: 100k character limit
MSmits: = 200kb
MSmits: 16 bit per character
MSmits: hi tomatoes
uvBoss: oke ty guys
uvBoss: im trying that now
tomatoes: hello
MSmits: grats on your uttt bot, I submitted yesterday, got goot results vs your awesome bot, but I draw too much vs others
MSmits: goot = good
wlesavo: got bot
tomatoes: have some troubles with O too. thought about trying to make draw from beginning
MSmits: karlis o beats p2 Hard
MSmits: if i try a CG bench against everyone with me as p2, I have about 50% against everyone except karlis o, which will be < 10%
wlesavo: MSmits if you dont mind sharing, i remember you saying random rollouts is bad, can you give a hint of what can be used instead?
MSmits: random rollouts is not bad
MSmits: it just depends on the game
wlesavo: i mean for uttt
MSmits: in uttt they perform quite well
MSmits: ah
wlesavo: oh ok
wlesavo: maybe it was out of context
MSmits: well I prefer blocking and winning moves in the rollout, but it was only a small impriovement and maybe it no longer is, if i test it now
MSmits: I also tested avoiding moves that give the opponent a free move, but that was bad
MSmits: mostly because near the end of the game there is no avoiding it and you'll just play badly
MSmits: though maybe i should try it again, just up to a certain turn nr.
wlesavo: oh thx, that bothered me for a while :slight_smile: i probably heard you taking about another game and just assumed it was uttt
MSmits: probably, I talk a lot
tomatoes: i use only ucb, if no visits yet then parent values as placeholder
MSmits: parent values?
tomatoes: wins/visits
MSmits: mmh but wont that give every child the same value?
MSmits: btw, we were talking about the random part, not the selection
Snef: when you select on child they all hame same parent so same score..?
Snef: one*
Snef: have*
tomatoes: random selection removed
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: i just select the first unvisited child
MSmits: i break out of the loop
Snef: ^
MSmits: there is a bias from this ofc
MSmits: but i never found it to matter
wlesavo: from what i know random rollouts should be quite bad in general, because it is basically off policy method whithout accounting for sample ratio, but yeah, not much fast alternatives
MSmits: the problem with uttt is that it doesnt have very good heuristics
MSmits: there are a few, but they arent perfect either and putting them in also slows your sim
MSmits: like the teccles-heuristic. It works great, until late game (20+ plies)
MSmits: if a board is still empty then, you might allow an opponent to send you to a bad board
MSmits: because he has 8 choices to pick from
MSmits: and one of them is going to be bad for you
tomatoes: im using heuristics only as small tips to mcts
MSmits: you mean you have weighted probability?
wlesavo: i think you can use soft heuristics on selection, but not on rollouts
tomatoes: kinda hey, check this, should be fine
wlesavo: for uttt that is
MSmits: tomatoes you mean you have priors in UCB, bonuses for good moves so they get explored sooner?
tomatoes: yes
MSmits: yeah i tried that, some of those do work
MSmits: it's a lot of trial and error
MSmits: wlesavo you can indeed use heuristics on rollouts
MSmits: I do this
MSmits: for a small improvement
MSmits: I have it so that if blocking and/or winning moves are always preferred if they exist
MSmits: blocking and winning being equal in this regard
MSmits: Robo came up with that. It is at most a few % winrate boost, but it worked
MSmits: of course this hinges on you being able to know fast which moves qualify. If you spend too much time calculating, performance drops hard
wlesavo: MSmits well i meant not too complicated, i use smth like that as well, as somebody suggested to increase a probability of such moves
MSmits: nah, probability based random rollouts wont work i tink
MSmits: tried it, was too slow
MSmits: weighted random is hard to pull off
MSmits: anyway, gotta go. Sad to go when we're talking about uttt :(
wlesavo: MSmits i prepopulated pull of possible positions, so there would be twice as much winning moves
tomatoes: i tried probabilities rollouts in othello. better than pure random, but still bad
MSmits: prepopulated?
wlesavo: this way it does not hurt at all
MSmits: why twice as much?
MSmits: do you mean you precalculated an array where you look up if either player has a winning move?
MSmits: and it's twice as much because 2 players?
wlesavo: MSmits for a current miniboard i have possible moves, so the ones that can close it just appear twice in this array
MSmits: ohhh
MSmits: funny way to do it
MSmits: but sure, could work
wlesavo: twice because this way you have smth like discrete probability
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: allright ttyl guys!
Astrobytes: laters
Astrobytes: I'm out for a bit too
wlesavo: gl
MSmits: yay train wifi works. Who's up for more uttt talk :grin:
wlesavo: lol
MSmits: i'm off to visit colleagues house to say goodbye to schoolyear, its almost done now
wlesavo: will next year start remoutedly for you or is it not known yet?
MSmits: should be starting normally. The agreement is that the students dont have to social distance except they have to stay away from the teachers
MSmits: but 2nd wave will change things obviously
MSmits: might be as soon as october
MSmits: i'll still be using some remote learning stuff I have been using though, some of it was an eyeopener
MSmits: like letting students photograph their homework and handing it in so i can quickly see if they're doing the work
wlesavo: yeah, we basically done with self isolation, everything open already, except for boarders, not very long for second wave as well
MSmits: really? seems fast. Russia got a late start on the epidemic
MSmits: The US opened too soon and now they are screwed
MSmits: but maybe it took less time in Russia if the outbreaks were smaller
MSmits: it helps when you can look at other countries and learn from their mistakes
wlesavo: yeah, people tired, and with our mentaility nobody cares anymore, and there is a constitution changing for putin to rule another 2 terms, so the goveerment is interested in pulling that earlier
MSmits: why does he even bother, cant he just let an underling take over for a bit like he did before :P
MSmits: I think most Russians know he is their dictator dont they?
MSmits: they're not stupid
wlesavo: maybe it is not enough for him anymore :slight_smile:
eulerscheZahl: the savior
MSmits: is it safe as a Russian to be critical of the government on media like these? I know in China you cant do that
wlesavo: well some are ok with that, and there is an effective propaganda as well, many people truly believe that he is a savior
MSmits: that doesnt surprise me at all
MSmits: if people are able to follow trump with all of the obvious :poop: he pulls, Putin would indeed be a savior
wlesavo: nah, it is ok while you not posting it on social media, and even if you do nobody cares until you make some troubles. but it can be indeed used against you
MSmits: ok so as long as you're relatively anonymous, it;s fine
MSmits: don't leave your tea unsupervised, just in case
tomatoes: no need to do something to be guilty in russia
eulerscheZahl: we will just interpret some criticism into your lines if you don't praise him
MSmits: hey euler
MSmits: did you also do Othello?
MSmits: maybe just your basic minimax you always do on these board games?
eulerscheZahl: let's go private
NgonTran: HELLO
MSmits: oh, sure, i dont have that much time though
Hjax: good morning
eulerscheZahl: good afternoon to you as well
Hjax: i got my othello working last night :D
MSmits: cool Hjax
MSmits: minimax also?
Hjax: mcts
MSmits: ohh
MSmits: is it good?
Hjax: its ok, i wrote it in java, so its not quite as speedy as it could be
Hjax: i plan to port it to something faster
MSmits: ahh right
MSmits: they say mcts is inferior on othello
MSmits: havent tried yet so i dunno
Hjax: yeah but i hadnt written mcts before
Hjax: i wanted to try it
Hjax: ive done minimax lots of times
MSmits: weird to start on a game where its known to be bad :P
MSmits: coulda done a uttt, easy sim and you get legend + cp
Hjax: i could still do that
Hjax: i already have the search
MSmits: yeah
Hjax: just need a board representation
MSmits: 10 ints is basic
Hjax: and i wrote one in C++ a while ago, so i can probably port it
MSmits: 9 per board + 1 for bigboard
MSmits: dont save state on node
MSmits: save moves
MSmits: thats about it
MSmits: there are other ways, but this what everyone starts with
Hjax: why is saving moves better?
MSmits: train arriving, gtg hf
Hjax: kk cya
MSmits: sorry 1 more stop lol
MSmits: saving moves hm
MSmits: because your gamestate will be too big to put on every node
Scarfield: you need a large object pool, and the nodes will take up less space if only storing the move.
MSmits: othello is 2x uint64_t
MSmits: uttt = 10x uint32_t, so 2,5x the siz
Hjax: i tried to do the node pool thing people have mentioned
MSmits: moves are cheaply applied
Hjax: and it didnt make my java mcts any faster
MSmits: nah its better for c++
MSmits: node creation becomes a bottleneck when your speed allows you to make millions
Hjax: right now i think im spending most of my time calculating UCT
MSmits: its expensive, try fast inverse squareroot
Scarfield: not doing rollouts?
MSmits: there are some approx roots also some simd functions i think
MSmits: but c++ first
Scarfield: i mean, rollouts is not your bottleneck?
Hjax: my board representation is really fast
Hjax: when i benchmarked it last night, i think rollouts and uct were roughly tied
MSmits: same for me i think
MSmits: a bit more on the rollouts
MSmits: but uct still a minor bottleneck
MSmits: allright thats it gtg for real now.
Hjax: bye MSmits
Scarfield: :wave:
MSmits: bye
Hjax: this boss is something else
Scarfield: are you using fast log, fast sqrt?
Hjax: no i used the normal java methods for sqrt and ln, i was tired and just wanted it to work
Hjax: i definitely can optimize it
Scarfield: for UCT the log is root 10, not ln though
Scarfield: oh wait im wrong
Scarfield: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/97401218-8625-421e-ac20-a06631a6ec44
Scarfield: these functions are for C++ but they can be rewritten for java i suppose
Hjax: i wonder how much faster they are than the native java methods
Hjax: ill do some benchmarking later
Hjax: how does your bot work? it beat me a lot last night
Scarfield: for UTTT?
Hjax: othello
Scarfield: vanilla MCTS for both
Hjax: ah so same as me
Scarfield: bit boards, but am not getting many full rollouts, so will try and optimize, or change to minMax at some point
Snef: how much rollout Scarfield ?
Scarfield: 1k ish +/- the first turns (exluding the very first turn)
Snef: oh ok
Scarfield: i expect this should be Much higher
Snef: random rollout ?
Scarfield: yea full vanilla :p
Snef: it should be faster then :p
wlesavo: fix it :slight_smile:
Scarfield: yea, the way i determine legal moves is my bottleneck by far, but still havent had any good ideas for improving. Am close to start searching the net for answers, but like the process of figuring it out :)
Snef: aaah i see
Snef: are you doing them one by one ?
Scarfield: yea
Scarfield: would like to do it faster, but havent figured out da way
Snef: i'm not gonna spoil it then :p
Scarfield: xD
Hjax: ah yeah, mine determines all of the legal moves at once
Hjax: its quite fast
Hjax: Snef i beat you a few times last night :P
Hjax: youre still better though
Snef: Hjax we have same code just with different rollcounts
Snef: ofc you'll beat me :p
Snef: that's same with me and the boss
Scarfield: had a feeling you should be able to do that, might start asking for tips soon :p
Hjax: my rollouts arent super fast yet
darkhorse64: Scarfield: google "bitboard methods for games". It has been shared multiple times on this chat so it's not really a spoiler
Snef: darkhorse64 i think he said he like to search by himself first
Hjax: darkhorse64 your boss beat me up and took my lunch money
Scarfield: sure ty
Hjax: i went like 0-12 vs it
tomatoes: yea, very nice pdf
Hjax: ive never read this pdf, but i think i know how to bitboard
darkhorse64: Sometimes, you get by with a little help from your friends
Snef: well it's not that hard, you just need to get into it :p
Hjax: right now i get about 7000 rollouts on the second move, but my search was kind of thrown together last night when i was tried
Hjax: i think i can optimize it a lot
Hjax: tired*
darkhorse64: Honestly, this is a nice introduction (a bit outdated though) and it's not like your bot writes itself after that
Scarfield: you should beat my bot then, about 7x fster
Hjax: i had a bug for a while last night where i forgot to reverse the scores i was propagating up the tree
Hjax: somehow it was still playing decently
darkhorse64: I got interested in bitboarding when doing bandas
Hjax: which i found very confusing
darkhorse64: mcts debugging is difficult
Scarfield: yea bandas was what got me started as well, but othello is not as straight foreward i think
tanmaycodernovice: @ludowsky hey bro
darkhorse64: finding what pawns you can push vs what pawns are surrounded is not that different
Hjax: i still have a bunch of improvements i can make, mcts solver, tree reuse, optimization
Hjax: not sure if all of those things combined will put me above the boss
Snef: i think it'll
Scarfield: yea i remember you mentioned that, never improved my bot from a loop there either xD
Hjax: what are you doing right now Snef? do you have tree reuse?
Snef: Hjax no
Snef: i haven othin but basic mcts
Snef: nothing*
Hjax: i see
Snef: i want to get to 40k roll out before
Scarfield: thats a nice improvement though, and you can get the opp moves as input, so much easier for othello
Snef: but i don't feel motivated rn
Hjax: i also need to clean up my code a lot
Hjax: theres a lot "i want it to work before i sleep" code in there
Hjax: because i really wanted to get something submitted last night
Scarfield: thats basicly my whole UTTT code xD
Shagufta_Siddique: is there anybody else who can help me
Shagufta_Siddique: i need to solve the puzzle how time flies by c++ , its my project but dn't know how to solve it ,please if someone can help me
Uljahn: jeez, Automaton2000
Automaton2000: how can i share my code
TyLuu: the same name with my boss
TyLuu: sorry. mistake group
Scarfield: lol have checked the pdf, the legal moves for othello seems so obvious after reading it
darkhorse64: The boss awaits
Hjax: the boss is a a monster
Hjax: 100% winrate against me right now
Astrobytes: Hi Hjax, got it working I see :)
Hjax: i did!
Hjax: its not super optimized yet, only getting about 6k rollouts on turn 2
Hjax: mostly because my UCT isnt fast
Astrobytes: Well that's the toughest part out of the way at least!
Precalculating?
Hjax: precalculating what?
jacek: yes
Astrobytes: sqrtLog and invSqrt
Hjax: ah im just using the native java methods for now
Astrobytes: Precalc will help a lot
Hjax: i just wanted it to work so i could sleep last night
Astrobytes: lol, cleanup time
Hjax: yep
jacek: to be frank from my quick tests, othello is one of those games that dont really benefit from mcts solver
Hjax: ive seen a few games where my bot just gets eliminated while reporting a 25% win chance
Hjax: solver would at least prevent those dumb losses
Hjax: tree reuse will be a much bigger gain for me
darkhorse64: Against the biggies, the game is decided between move 30-35.
darkhorse64: Usually in 4 plies, my eval drops from 50% to 5%
Hjax: how would i recompute the sqrt part? isnt there too many possibilities?
Hjax: precomputing the log part is straight forward
darkhorse64: There is no consensus. I don't do that
darkhorse64: because it means huge table, overflows check
tomatoes: rsqrt should be a bit faster
darkhorse64: Yes
struct: Hi
AntiSquid: hi
Astrobytes: Hi
jacek: :B
Astrobytes: That's a new one
css2st: căng
