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Default avatar.png Archaic: hey

MadKnight: hey hey

kenphanith: hi

MadKnight: what are u doing ?

jacek: happy Caturday

Default avatar.png braincoder2: hehehehheheheheheh!

Default avatar.png braincoder2: I think i just won a clash!

MadKnight: gj now try to win a game of CSB

MadKnight: BrainSolver

MadKnight: braincoder2

MadKnight: looks like he's gone, Automaton2000

Automaton2000: now let's see what happens


dbdr: :)

MadKnight: what's that dbdr ?

dbdr: the testsuite of rustc MadKnight

MadKnight: and why did u share it ?

dbdr: I think it looks nice :)

dbdr: testing a small change that would help on CG for rust in debug mode

MadKnight: what change ?

dbdr: make it possible to efficiently do arithmetic operations like + without overflow checks in debug mode

MadKnight: nice

AntiSquid: is rust easier to debug dbdr ?

dbdr: well, this overflow check by default found a few bugs for me

dbdr: basically for free, no work to investigate

AntiSquid: i saw a meme about how difficult it is to fix an error in c++ compared to rust, supposedly rust has more built in support for it

dbdr: well, there's also when your c++ code has a segfault

dbdr: in rust that would have been a compilation error :)

AntiSquid: so rust makes life easier?

dbdr: (unless you use the special unsafe code, but then you are aware of doing something you need to be careful with)

dbdr: now some people might prefer a rare crash to more compilation errors, it's a personal choice I think

dbdr: similar to the static/dynamic typing debate

dbdr: it makes my life easier for sure. it's also harder to learn at first when you are used to other languages

dbdr: so it depends on your preference

AntiSquid: i like how rust bots aren't working in IDE because of the release mode issue, so i might try it in another contest if it doesn't change

AntiSquid: if it's not something ooc though :D

dbdr: that's evil :D

AntiSquid: as evil as using a faster language

dbdr: why not on ooc?

dbdr: no, liking that it times out :)

AntiSquid: ooc is complicated enough, don't want to also learn a language while doing it

dbdr: right. I think it's good to have time on the other hand, like a one month contest, or a multi

dbdr: you don't want to learn a new language during a 10 day contest I think

dbdr: I did the 15 puzzles on CG in rust, then I really learned it during the RAIC last year, which was 1 month

AntiSquid: pretty much what i did so far :D

dbdr: puzzles?

AntiSquid: duroing contest

AntiSquid: first serious use i mean

dbdr: ah, with what language?

AntiSquid: java, python, c++, although i used them a little bit before

AntiSquid: don't feel motivated otherwise

dbdr: makes sense too

AntiSquid: i basically end up google the syntax a lot

dbdr: with rust you will likely run into problems if you just learn the basic syntax and try to code a serious bot with it.

AntiSquid: maybe, but i think i had that issue with c++

dbdr: for many languages, it's mostly syntax differences, which you can google indeed, and the standard types

dbdr: in Rust you really need to think differently because of the way it deals with memory

AntiSquid: and there's some language specific bs with java i ran in to anyway

dbdr: yeah, there will always be something :)

dbdr: could be the GC in Java for instance

AntiSquid: it was something to do with object comparison i think not sure anymore

AntiSquid: also they differ between each other, so you might mix things up accidentally

dbdr: right, there are subtle differences in many languages with this. equality, cloning, etc

dbdr: AntiSquid do you have a link to the meme you mentioned? :)

AntiSquid: dbdr

dbdr: :D

dbdr: thanks

AntiSquid: i know the first half is true, but no idea about the second

dbdr: well, if an identifier is mispelled, rustc will ask: did you mean that one? :)

dbdr: like git does

dbdr: but there is also cargo clippy, which is giving suggestions to improve your code

dbdr: for instance:

dbdr: this is a good example too:

dbdr: I think a c++ compiler would screen pages of parse errors in a case like this :D

dbdr: *scream

dbdr: congrats to DaNinja for promoting in Tulips!

AntiSquid: is tulips hard to promote or what

dbdr: not especially. but the wood boss is not stupid either

AntiSquid: silver boss level ? bronze?

dbdr: it's community

dbdr: wood 1 = legend :)

dbdr: but wood 2 is probably like bronze or silver in a classical multi

AntiSquid: ya that's what i meant

dbdr: it's probably possible to promote with a cheese though

AntiSquid: 230 max CP, very low on my list :p

DaNinja: Thanks dbdr :)

dbdr: are you using a search DaNinja?

DaNinja: I tried minmax and MCTS but no success so switched to a pattern for now

dbdr: oh, you took back the #7 from joli AntiSquid, gz. what did you do? :)

AntiSquid: that's over a week ago

AntiSquid: basically nothing

AntiSquid: we were close in score

AntiSquid: after a day i got above him not doing anything

AntiSquid: then i improved my CR2 bot

AntiSquid: he also didn't do anything until yesterday, i see a bump in his score, no idea what he played

AntiSquid: +1k or so

LelouchVC2: clash of clans

AntiSquid: nobody gets the joke .

LelouchVC2: damn

dbdr: well, if you really want to know you should be able to dig the information from AntiSquid

dbdr: it's not user friendly though

LelouchVC2: 3 people walk into a bar

LelouchVC2: only 2 leave

AntiSquid: and the 3rd one ended up isolating in the bar or what

Nerchio: the 3rd one was a java programmer and was stuck debugging timeouts on cg

AntiSquid: why use java? isn't life worth living?

Nerchio: i feel comfortable with it :P

LelouchVC2: I can feel my rank decrease with every python programmer I face in a clash

AntiSquid: what about ruby

LelouchVC2: I've only seen 1 or 2 of those, and usually for string manipulation

Nerchio: idk didnt touch ruby

AntiSquid: was asking LelouchVC2 because ruby apparently can get shorter ...

AntiSquid: dbdr you noticed my rank change but you didn't see euler drop ?

dbdr: well, because you mentioned CPs so I looked at you :)

AntiSquid: ah lol

dbdr: euler #2, eip :D

dbdr: rip

LelouchVC2: I'll learn Python, get to 1st place, then put this on my resume

AntiSquid: 1st place in coc ?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: 6 Wood leagues in Botters of the Galaxy??

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: And getting past wood 6 is as simple as taking deadpool and attack_nearest hero?

LelouchVC2: Yep :D

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Lol works for Wood 5 too

AntiSquid: because we were asked to add more wood levels before moving that game into multi :/

AntiSquid: there are small changes in rules WINWINWIN

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :D but getting till wood 3 after about 10 seconds of code??

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah, Im following the changes

AntiSquid: well better than CSB no?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah, that lets u get till gold after a similar 5 mins of code :P

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: target-3vel

Uljahn: and then they whine about the rules becoming too complex to debug a simu and asking for a way to get back in previous league :smirk:

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Cant happen to me, I wont get far enough xD

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: is heuristics the most common strategy for the toppers in botters of the galaxy?

aCat: ooo euler#2!!!

aCat: he should get all the invites for clash of code

aCat: and improve his rating there

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :P

PortalBot: yes WINWINWIN

Default avatar.png Zephyd: hello

Default avatar.png Zephyd: I'm lee jun gi

Default avatar.png Zephyd: 개떵

Default avatar.png Zephyd: 돼지

AntiSquid: hello lee jun gi

Default avatar.png prakash218: hi

cegprakash: did anyone do codejam 1C?

eulerscheZahl: robostac did, #99

cegprakash: mm

cegprakash: I'm #6568 not bad

cegprakash: I couldn't solve 2nd

cegprakash: 2nd problem had multiple answers

eulerscheZahl: i just read the 2nd statement

cegprakash: me reaching codejam round 2 is still an achievement yet to be unlocked

cegprakash: I've been trying for 10 years

eulerscheZahl: i guess i would look for those lines: 14 PP

cegprakash: oh damn

eulerscheZahl: 2 digit output, so the first has to be a 1 here

cegprakash: no

eulerscheZahl: yes

cegprakash: say if P is mapped to 8

cegprakash: 14 and PP is still valid

cegprakash: coz 14 < 88

AntiSquid: 10 years? idk isn't there something like a PM you can read to learn from?

cegprakash: 14 <= 88

eulerscheZahl: the output is in 0..14

eulerscheZahl: and it has 2 digits, thus 10..14

eulerscheZahl: the first digit is a 1

cegprakash: I don't understand u

cegprakash: I only check 14 <= 88

wlesavo: cegprakash for first two cases you need only first digit of the number

wlesavo: checking that in loop was enough for me

cegprakash: yes u can decide 14 <= 88 using 1 <= 8

cegprakash: so comparing first digit is okay too

eulerscheZahl: for the last i guess a probability distribution for the first digit will do the trick

eulerscheZahl: no 0 at first (2+ digits)

cegprakash: first I check digits.. for eg. say SP for M=12832 here M has 5 digits so SP is valid

eulerscheZahl: lots of 1, few 9

cegprakash: I check all permutations.. return the first valid solution

cegprakash: but it seem to be multiple valid solutions exist

cegprakash: I didn't work with probability values though

cegprakash: I only have a 0 or 1 for all permutation

cegprakash: but solution seem to be wanting the permutation with highest probability

cegprakash: it's not clear in problem statement

eulerscheZahl: to me the statement is very clear

Astrobytes: ceg never reads any statement in it's entirety

cegprakash: where is the word probability

AntiSquid: how hard were the puzzles this year eulerscheZahl?

cegprakash: These two are valid solutions for given input PFOXLUSHBT TPFOXLUSHB

cegprakash: in sample case

cegprakash: but the judge expects TPFOXLUSHB

cegprakash: how do u decide between these two eulerscheZahl

eulerscheZahl: round 1B was doable AntiSquid. i didn't try too hard when it was clear to me that i passed

eulerscheZahl: round 1C (just read the statements after the round): A is an easy problem

eulerscheZahl: B is a little tricky but i really like that one

eulerscheZahl: not hard but needs creative thinking

eulerscheZahl: cegprakash that depends on the inputs (the 10k guesses)

cegprakash: yes

cegprakash: I used the 10k guesses

cegprakash: to find these

eulerscheZahl: the T is the first character the most often

eulerscheZahl: so it starts with T

eulerscheZahl: (is very likely to start with T)

cegprakash: there is nowhere mentioned in the statement

cegprakash: that u need to make guesses

cegprakash: it just wants a valid solution

cegprakash: tell me 1 reason why PFOXLUSHBT is wrong

cegprakash: I see a lot of Ps than Ts

AntiSquid: ask for a refund

wlesavo: cegprakash there are some numbers that starts with P ==> P can nont be a zero

wlesavo: i just checked it

cegprakash: infact for query M=1 we have two responses as P

cegprakash: wait what

cegprakash: :O

cegprakash: there can't be leading zeroes

cegprakash: f**k

wlesavo: lol

cegprakash: let me think

AntiSquid: permission granted

struct: seg fault

Astrobytes: *ceg fault

cegprakash: no

cegprakash: I think my code will cover that

wlesavo: well if PFOXLUSHBT is valid then you not covering that

cegprakash: say 123 returns KRS. This guarantees K can never be 0 and I can ignore all permutations starting at K?

Default avatar.png Sepehr.khashei: c

wlesavo: smth like that yes

cegprakash: interesting

eulerscheZahl: "say 123 returns KRS" this guarantees K=1, R=2, S=3

eulerscheZahl: oh wait, nvm

eulerscheZahl: R can be 0 too

eulerscheZahl: but K=1 for sure

eulerscheZahl: so R=0 or 2

wlesavo: if you take 102 it works

cegprakash: i now assume K can be 0

cegprakash: thats the issue i think

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: In botters of the galaxy, how do you find out the opponent`s chosen hero?

AntiSquid: it's in the input

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah, found it thanks Antisquid

AntiSquid: just opened up the game to find it for you lol

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :)

AntiSquid: heroType, guess it should have been name? they didn't have actual names at first

Illedan: Hello

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: stupid me just going to get past wood 2 :)

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Totally forgot about items xD

AntiSquid: sadek11

Default avatar.png sadek11: hii

AntiSquid: don't invite me to clash

Default avatar.png sadek11: okay bro

AntiSquid: please

AntiSquid: thanks

ALIM: Hello could anyone help me with XML MDF-2016 easy puzzle in C language? I'm new to programmin so every help is useful. Thanks in advance!

Uljahn: if you're new go for classic puzzles first rather than community one

AntiSquid: theres a way to select classic only?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: anyone doing botters of the galaxy now?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Am in W1 with a 100% winrate but because of all of the tank submits, The boss has a crazily high score

reCurse: Just keep submitting, if you're good enough you'll knock down the boss score.

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah but its taking a lot of time :( I have a 90% winrate overall but the boss only goes down by .2 per submit

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: It started at something like 23

AntiSquid: check your losses

reCurse: That sucks but nothing much to do about it

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :(

AntiSquid: kinda had similar issue in last contest :p

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :D helps other people qualify too, the guy that I lost to has gone from 15 to 17 now

AntiSquid: oh btw get an avatar, hard to tell which games you lost / won for others

AntiSquid: if you share a loss i will try to give advice

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN:

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Stay out of tower range?

AntiSquid: yes ofc :p

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :P doing it now

AntiSquid: but also you didn't use your gold for anything

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah right now just trying to get till bronze for all rules

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: The code is just: get deadpool and hulk

AntiSquid: don't attack enemy heroes when the enemy units are around, they jump on your heroes otherwise

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: attack_nearest heroes

dbdr: get two hulks!

**dbdr ducks

AntiSquid: towers also had less damage back then dbdr

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Does anyone use variable heroes?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Or does everyone stick to 1 set of heroes?

AntiSquid: few players get a different second hero depending on enemy first pick

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Makes sense

AntiSquid: most combinations are either 2 ranged or 2 melee heroes

AntiSquid: then some people mix those 2 up, for example getting a ranged as second for better last hits

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Will stick to hulk and deadpool :)

AntiSquid: too early to decide bronze is where you get access to the full game :p

reCurse: Maybe I should sell CG boosting services.

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :) Already in bronze

AntiSquid: oh nice

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Second last submit pushed the only guy beating me into bronze

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: after that 1 more submit at 100% winrate :D

AntiSquid: maybe he will get the promotion email and return to take revenge

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :) Hope not

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah, now I got the 100% winrate against bronze boss

AntiSquid: focus on one hero at a time, then there's less overall damage dealt to your heroes, also still no items ?

AntiSquid: i guess this was that time in bronze when everyone was just trying to generate funny replays

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Still no items

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: just avoid tower beats bronze boss, but doesnt let me reach the boss though

AntiSquid: don't forget to add hero skills

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Working on that now

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Is focussing on a single skill for each hero enough for silver?

AntiSquid: ya sure

dbdr: what's that reCurse? :)

inoryy: reCurse how much for #1 in csb

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: How do you print a skill in BotG?

struct: Should be in the description

inoryy: I agree, reCurse rates should be in the description

MSmits: lol

jacek: onitama is ridiculus

jacek: i made new heuristic which is clearly better against my old one, but its worse in real battle

607: ебать

jacek: and my mcts alt is better in real battle but worse in local battles :s

eulerscheZahl: and your submit scrambled top3

AntiSquid: winwin ? gone ?

jrke: recurse nice bot in CSB

reCurse: Thanks

jrke: legend league of CSB seems easier after solving gold one

inoryy: wait till you try to break into top25

MSmits: at some point every few ranks is a new league

jrke: K

AntiSquid: imagine 90k made it to legend in CSB

jacek: not so legend eh

AntiSquid: ya that too, but was thinking about how fun a submit could look like

reCurse: It's already terrible with 800

Uljahn: guess leagues till gold should be wood

MSmits: 90k people in tron legend would be interesting too

AntiSquid: tron isn't being promoted, won't happen :p

MSmits: i just meant because of the 24 games

AntiSquid: but the RNG fest would ridiculous

MSmits: dont they do every order on every 4 players?

AntiSquid: actually UTG gold is pretty bad

Illedan: Can't have a 4 player game with that many players

Illedan: The submission times :zzz:

reCurse: Submission times are independent of number of players

Illedan: I was refering to the pressure on the servers

reCurse: Also independent of number of players

Illedan: And it has 100 ms afaik?

MSmits: the number of turns matters more

MSmits: or the combination of the two

MSmits: some games tend to terminate early a lot

MSmits: some always last the full duration

MSmits: anyone else think the smash the code rotations are unclear from the description?

Illedan: Doing smitsi max on stc?

reCurse: Bitboards obviously

MSmits: maybe, for now i'll settle for a working sim and search, ignoring opponent. After than i'll experiment

MSmits: yes bitboards first, naturally

MSmits: I use my ooc bitboard stuff :P

Illedan: The bitboard search? :P

reCurse: No such thing as premature optsmitsation

MSmits: right :)

AntiSquid: optimize the if else in wood :o

MSmits: in this case it isnt premature optimization, because this way of doing things feels more natural to me now. It might actually be slower =/

MSmits: not sure how good the floodfill is

reCurse: That's why I didn't talk of optimization

MSmits: ow right

MSmits: any tricks to skip a few leagues?

reCurse: Steal code from github

MSmits: nah

Astrobytes: "optsmitsation" dear oh dear

MSmits: I want a nice heuristic or two :)

MSmits: not someone elses code

AntiSquid: reading too fast

reCurse: Don't stack it past the board

MSmits: I'm in wood 1 with the same colored blocks

MSmits: thanks reCurse :P

AntiSquid: look for longer combos ?

MSmits: yeah I am just wondering how to code that

MSmits: generally an easy heuristic looks at the next turn or so

AntiSquid: watch the boss

MSmits: it stacks up stuff left and right

Astrobytes: Don't lose.

Illedan: ^

MSmits: I probably should just finish my sim and write an eval function for depth 1

Illedan: Yeah

AntiSquid: meditate, work out, drink enough water

MSmits: then pick the best move

Illedan: why waste time on a stupid if?

reCurse: Aren't you just pushing the same question for later?

MSmits: well, an eval function is easier to write for me than an if forest

MSmits: in this case it's probably going to include score + number of times 2 or 3 blocks are adjacent + highest stack

AntiSquid: you can basically do_brick_placement, check result, undo duh ! :p

AntiSquid: if score > something ...

MSmits: check result is the hard part. gotta get sim working :)

AntiSquid: floodfill or whatever you want to call it

MSmits: its not just that, its also skulls disappearing, blocks dropping, more floodfill from different colors, a complicated score function

MSmits: definitely more complicated than I thought it would be

AntiSquid: you can always quit, right Automaton2000 ?

Automaton2000: at least i have a little less

reCurse: How upset are you the board is 72 bits?

MSmits: i would have prefered the height of the board to be 16, not 12

MSmits: but maybe a little upset

MSmits: i use uint16_t[6] for each color

reCurse: I think stc is my oldest bot

Illedan: Let's design the next game to make smitty happy with his bitboards :D

reCurse: God it's ugly as sin

MSmits: you know whats cool reCurse

MSmits: you can use _pext to drop the blocks

MSmits: its amazing

AntiSquid: i was thinking exactly that Illedan but thought one can always spam community puzzles with that in mind

reCurse: I guess

AntiSquid: also add hidden info and odd physics to make it difficult :D

reCurse: Maybe I should try a NN for it

MSmits: finish FB first

Astrobytes: ^beat me to it

AntiSquid: playing together is more fun, join MSmits

reCurse: It just triggers me to infinity that this game is an inferior version of puyo puyo

MSmits: i have the advantage of not knowing any puyo's

MSmits: let alone two

struct: lol

eulerscheZahl: you are about to start a new multiplayer less than a week before the contest? that's risky :P

struct: MSmits puting piece vertical on empty space should be enough to get to bronze

struct: iirc

MSmits: hmm maybe, dont think so though, this is more like one of those multis i want to cross off my list. Less risk of addiction

Astrobytes: Nah. He spent half the OOC doing UTTT lol

AntiSquid: maybe you should cheer for him to play stc, otherwise you'll compete vs another c# bot

struct: So you get all the rules

MSmits: AntiSquid depends on the game.I might use c++ in the contest

AntiSquid: pacman with velocity and ghost trains

Illedan: I hope I can try NN on this one

MSmits: struct what rules

struct: in wood 1 you have rotation right?

MSmits: yeah

struct: But both are same color

struct: always

struct: on bronze not

MSmits: seems so yes

struct: I guess it doesnt matter much

MSmits: I can code it as if they are different colors

struct: yeah

MSmits: btw struct what is a good simcount for stc?

MSmits: so i can compare later

struct: I had around 1mill average

MSmits: is that 1 million blocks dropped?

struct: yes

MSmits: in 100 ms?

struct: yes

MSmits: seems like a lot, but I guess this is because most blocks do not trigger anything

MSmits: so you're just dropping something and then it's the next turn

struct: yeah placing a block costs almost nothing

reCurse: lol I forgot games are 12 turns long

struct: Preety much

MSmits: wow

struct: One thing I dislike aobut the game

struct: It ends too early

MSmits: easy fitting of constants :)

MSmits: also easier to train an NN on short games no?

MSmits: reward is closeby

reCurse: Should be

eulerscheZahl: i did a lot of offline param tuning

eulerscheZahl: worked surprisingly well online vs other bots too

MSmits: interesting

reCurse: How is that surprising though

reCurse: It's the same optimization problem on both sides

reCurse: Not like there's a lot of ways to play the same blocks well

MSmits: hmm well unless the constants involve when to trigger your chain and drop skulls on the other guy

reCurse: You have maybe 8-10 turns to distinguish yourself

reCurse: Not a whole lot of possibilities

MSmits: yeah I guess so

MSmits: btw I have been thinking about machine learning for Onitama

MSmits: how hard is it to use the cards as input?

MSmits: seems an annoying complication

MSmits: other than that it is a very simple game

eulerscheZahl: because i just have some hardcoded constants when to attack and when to wait. completely ignoring the opponent

AntiSquid: how do you define the input

Illedan: Gotta be a whole lot of possible card combinations

MSmits: 300k or so

eulerscheZahl: different opponents attack at different times and i don't even see the attack coming

MSmits: ahh ok

AntiSquid: you need to turn each card into a value or multie values and use those values as input and then use the board also as input, that's how i see it anyway

MSmits: yeah, not easy to do though. That's a lot of input

MSmits: struct, when the block is rotated in position 2 (sticking to the left), can you still play move 0?

MSmits: or is it 1-5?

struct: no

struct: 1-5

MSmits: ok thanks

struct: There are 22 moves iirc

MSmits: yeah i got that part

MSmits: only 10 for horizontals

MSmits: 5 when they are the same color

MSmits: oh... skulls can;t kill you?

struct: skulls can leave you with no moves left

MSmits: sure, but if a line of skulls drops and you have no room up top you dont die right?

struct: yeah, it just wont drop there

MSmits: but will still cost nuisance points?

struct: costs the samew

MSmits: kk

MSmits: it's annoying you dont get the points as input

struct: you mean nuiscance points?

struct: or your poits?

MSmits: nuisance

MSmits: score you get

struct: yeah

struct: This can be done though

MSmits: can you deduce the full game state?

MSmits: or is some hidden?

Astrobytes: ; ~}@>??

struct: I think you can know everything

Default avatar.png fvla: Which game are you discussing?

Astrobytes: sorry, cat

struct: Smash the code


Default avatar.png fvla: hm

Default avatar.png fvla: just spam GTR? lol

Default avatar.png LoGos: Hi everyone! eulerscheZahl MSmits I managed to run out of memory in bandas. :sweat_smile: eulerscheZahl may I ask you one more question about your mcts?

MSmits: gj LoGos

eulerscheZahl: go ahead LoGos

eulerscheZahl: and congrats

eulerscheZahl: btw MSmits has a much higher sim count than me

Default avatar.png LoGos: Actually it's kind of cheating I think

MSmits: what is?

Default avatar.png LoGos: I wanted to ask one important question

eulerscheZahl: pondering?

Default avatar.png LoGos: do you create new nodes while simulating random game?

MSmits: no

MSmits: the idea is that the random playout is not part of the tree

MSmits: damnit, now I want to go back to bandas and try an early playout versions =/

eulerscheZahl: of course my random rollout creates new nodes?

MSmits: the random sim and the end doesnt

MSmits: just the expansion

MSmits: unless yours does?

eulerscheZahl: i'm not entirely sure anymore. but i think i spam new nodes or at least reserve the memory

Scarfield: by create new notes, what do you mean, do you create an object pool in the start?

MSmits: he has an object pool

Scarfield: noice

eulerscheZahl: but i reserve an index

dbdr: my first MCTS did because "it would be a waste to throw the data out", but it's a bad idea I think

Default avatar.png LoGos: I mean while simulating random playout you also create new nodes representing taken actions

MSmits: he just wants to know that after he expanded and made new children, does he make a new node for each move until the game ends

MSmits: the answer is no, like dbdr said

dbdr: the rollouts are too random to be relevant, and storing them just slows you down

Default avatar.png LoGos: Yeah thats how I managed to run OOM, but result improved only a little

MSmits: out of mana?

MSmits: :P

Scarfield: lol

Scarfield: what are you storing in your nodes?

MSmits: sorry, too many years addicted to everquest

eulerscheZahl: i do that: root => enum moves take one child, enum moves from there

dbdr: OufOfManaException

eulerscheZahl: so that is 8 new nodes at depth 2 already

eulerscheZahl: for a single rollout

eulerscheZahl: i randomize the expansion order. so i create all childs and then take a random one which i havent expanded

MSmits: I do it differently I think

MSmits: I go down the tree with selection until I hit an unexpanded node

MSmits: i expand that node into 4 children and do 1 simulation from each of them

MSmits: and backpropagate 4 scores

dbdr: eulerscheZahl: that's just expansion though, not rollout

Default avatar.png LoGos: :laughing: Idk how else I would achieve so high node's count

dbdr: rollout might go through 10s or 100s of states, but you don't store them

Default avatar.png LoGos: MSmits may I ask you how many sims/nodes do you create pern turn?

eulerscheZahl: i expand 1 node and go further on that path of course

MSmits: Let me go and see LoGos

Default avatar.png LoGos: I could only go ~100-150k in first turns

eulerscheZahl: and along my rollout path i create 4 nodes for each unexpanded node

MSmits: first turn with 1 second LoGos?

MSmits: or per 100 ms?

dbdr: along the whole path eulerscheZahl?

Default avatar.png LoGos: per 100ms

Default avatar.png LoGos: there is no 1s in first turn

dbdr: until the end of the game?

eulerscheZahl: do you need an image dbdr? :/

MSmits: LoGos there is

MSmits: LoGos how do you define a rollout?

MSmits: 100-150k is a lot

struct: Which game?

Default avatar.png LoGos: I mean 100-150k new nodes with 1 simulation for each of them

Scarfield: Bandas

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: Well in the first 1 second I get about 2 million new nodes

MSmits: then per 100 ms, somewhat over 200k new nodes

Default avatar.png LoGos: There really is 1s in the first turn? I didn't see it anywhere...

dbdr: the point is, no nodes stored on the wiggly path at the bottom of the 3rd tree

MSmits: i didnt either, but apparently there always is


Scarfield: i think its a standard to have more time first turn for every game (?)


Default avatar.png LoGos: well s**t That's 9 missed turns for me

eulerscheZahl: paste that code on the website

eulerscheZahl: and click "generate graph"

eulerscheZahl: CG always gives 1s for the first turn

struct: yes Scarfield,

MSmits: that's cool eulerscheZahl

eulerscheZahl: that is because some languages are slow at startup

eulerscheZahl: the graph sharing or the way i explore MSmits?

MSmits: graph

Default avatar.png LoGos: I actually thought it's only in UTTT

MSmits: i have no idea if the way you explore is good

Default avatar.png LoGos: because of 81 possible moves as first player

eulerscheZahl: sometimes i generate these graphs in code

MSmits: LoGos, everyone starts with middle as p1

MSmits: also out of 81 moves only 15 are unique

dbdr: logos also it's not 81 because of symmetries

dbdr: as msmits says :)

eulerscheZahl: generate a level and open the console MSmits. you'll see a graph right there ;)

struct: euler seems like we can change firstTurn timeout on sdk

struct: Is this recent?

Default avatar.png LoGos: Yeah I've taken it into account. I rotate my board according to enemy move if I'm first

eulerscheZahl: are you sure?

Default avatar.png LoGos: brb I'm going to use these sweet new 9 turns

Scarfield: :D

dbdr: decrease it to 100ms to screw JIT languages :D

eulerscheZahl: where did you see that struct?


MSmits: Could not load content for

dbdr: 25s first turn :D

jacek: but, can we have a total time limit for player, not the turn one?

struct: :D

struct: no jacek

eulerscheZahl: oh right, now i remember seeing that in autocomplete once

struct: I would like it too

Scarfield: oh like chess games?

Scarfield: could be cool

struct: yeah

struct: timebank

Astrobytes: I can't see that happening

eulerscheZahl: MSmits as long as the UI works i don't care :D

jacek: probably one could simulate that in referee, but its kind of unreliable

struct: I tried its unreliable

jacek: like theres 100ms limit, but i can do 105 or something easil

dbdr: you can make a game where the player has to send bytecode, or sth like CGFunge. then you interpret it yourself and you can implement whatever time rules you want

eulerscheZahl: you don't get any closer to a timebank with the first turn time btw

eulerscheZahl: would just help for games that you solve in turn 1 such as Bender 4 or A*Craft

dbdr: those you solve in turn 0 ;)

eulerscheZahl: :D

eulerscheZahl: the interpreter is the only way to get close to a timebank. but then again the referee itself can timeout

eulerscheZahl: because there's a limit too

eulerscheZahl: not in the offline SDK

eulerscheZahl: had to learn it the hard way during OOC

dbdr: then the referee need to JIT the player's code

dbdr: fun project

eulerscheZahl: the code we inherited had a slow BFS (like 4s worstcase for a single run)

dbdr: ouch

eulerscheZahl: worked fine offline when we tested shooting out of the map

Astrobytes: 4s!

eulerscheZahl: online it crashed

eulerscheZahl: and you don't check the timing, as the game itself takes a bit anyways

eulerscheZahl: it was visiting the same node multiple times because it set the parent node as visited and not the new one

MSmits: kutulu also had a costly A* didn't it?

Astrobytes: lol

eulerscheZahl: a degenerated A* that's actually BFS

eulerscheZahl: but not visiting the same node again

Astrobytes: The kutulu was a failed a*

Astrobytes: dammit

eulerscheZahl: next time i'm somehow involved in a contest, remind me to check the path finding

MSmits: or any algorithm that is at risk of (near)infinite loops

eulerscheZahl: i even checked the "shoot out of map" locally to see if it crashes

eulerscheZahl: worked fine, i didn't stop the time :cry:

Default avatar.png LoGos: The difference in # of created nodes in enormous D:

Default avatar.png LoGos: Just with 900ms more in the first turn my node count doubled

eulerscheZahl: and how long to these nodes survive in later turns?

MSmits: LoGos, better to just reset your tree when you get near the end of your pool

MSmits: problem solved

Default avatar.png LoGos: idk but there is an interresting pattern there. There is a sudden jump in # of simulations in the middle of the game. Now my tree can reach this state faster (?) so that's where the gain comes from

struct: in uttt how often do you reset?

MSmits: once at most

struct: you reset the tree only 1 time?

struct: The entire game

MSmits: yes, but that's if i dont use heuristics

eulerscheZahl: robo just starts at 0 again when you gets out of range

MSmits: sometimes i use move-selection heuristics, if an opponent picks a move that falls out of the heuristic, my tree doesnt cover it and resets also

eulerscheZahl: possibly overwriting the root

MSmits: oh right, i do that too

struct: Ok I need to redo uttt

struct: I reset tree every turn

struct: I start from 0

Default avatar.png LoGos: i think it's not the same tree

MSmits: it honestly doesn't matter that much struct

Default avatar.png LoGos: really?

MSmits: well bandas and uttt are a bit different

eulerscheZahl: UTTT has a lot of possible moves

MSmits: but in bandas also, most nodes in the tree for your current turn will be new nodes

eulerscheZahl: bandas has 4 per turn, much more reusing possible

Astrobytes: NAh just keep going until you hit the end

eulerscheZahl: that's what i do

eulerscheZahl: that's why i crash in longer games

Astrobytes: wow lag much, I meant that in reusing the nodes

struct: For example on uttt

struct: I expand the nodes

struct: and i almsot use all nodes I allocated

MSmits: i'm trying to write an eval for bandas now. To see if it's better than a random playout

Astrobytes: EPT?

MSmits: yeah, though the way i do it, theres no sim at all

MSmits: in oware and onitama anyway

Astrobytes: Yeah you have the solver

Default avatar.png LoGos: MSmits when resetting I actually use node's before root's index It only works once per game though

MSmits: no simulation after expansion

Default avatar.png LoGos: nodes*

MSmits: ahh

MSmits: well thats what i do in uttt LoGos

MSmits: but in bandas it didnt work for me

MSmits: I will end up overwriting the root eventually

MSmits: The thing is though, I think most games are decided before you even get to the point when you're going to have to reset

MSmits: bandas is quite unbalanced a lot of the time

struct: I think something is wrong on my mcts implementation

struct: I run out of nodes so fast

PatrickMcGinnisII: Illedan your game crashed

eulerscheZahl: bitrunner?

MSmits: in which game struct, also how many nodes?

PatrickMcGinnisII: The game has crashed. Please contact the author and enclose the following error:

struct: I have 15 Mill nodes allocated

struct: uttt

PatrickMcGinnisII: Tulips and Daisies

eulerscheZahl: that's not illedan's game

MSmits: const int NODE_MAX = 25000000;

MSmits: 25 million for me

PatrickMcGinnisII: oh, it was approved, i gotcha

struct: The problem is that I almost use the 15 mill on 1 turn

eulerscheZahl: so: crash the referee when you are losing?

Astrobytes: eh?

MSmits: dont make new nodes during a random playotu struct

MSmits: thats probably what you do

Default avatar.png LoGos: yeah, I had the same problem

MSmits: either that or your exploration parameter is waaaaayy high

struct: on expansio nI do new nodes

struct: I shouldnt ?

MSmits: sure you should

MSmits: so thats about 7-9 new nodes per expansion in early game

struct: yeah

PatrickMcGinnisII: eulerscheZahl, yup apparently all you have to do is send a NULL NULL to the ref

MSmits: struct I use about 8-9 million nodes in the first turn

struct: the one with 1sec or 100ms?

MSmits: 1 s

struct: I use 9 mill in 100 ms

struct: ...

struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Scarfield: when expanding are you creating nodes for all children, or only one?

MSmits: yeah definitely doing something wrong

MSmits: it could be you're incrementing your node index by 9*9 somehow instead of by 9

MSmits: so your nodes get spread out far

MSmits: either that or your bot is amazing

struct: My bot is not amazing

struct: Is just expanding a lot

Scarfield: suffering with succes :p

Astrobytes: It's amazing at expanding, always find the silver lining :P

MSmits: do some testing, just make a simple counter that increments by 1 every time you run the expansion function

MSmits: and print it

struct: ok

struct: Expansion counter: 1346042

struct: Lol

struct: So i guess whats wrong in my code is my selection

Astrobytes: Maybe your exploration constant as MSmits suggested earlier

MSmits: it's still weird though, if your mcts is done right it should play a random game after every expansion

MSmits: that random game slows you down a lot

MSmits: 1.3 million expansions, is a lot of randomg ames

dbdr: just pick a random outcome for the game. faster than simulating it

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: FITS

dbdr: random vs random, what's the difference ;)

Astrobytes: "F**k It Tree Search

reCurse: Big brain

MSmits: right

dbdr: Yolo Tree Search

PatrickMcGinnisII: You life is upsidedown when the GF won't go to the store with you unless you wear protection

MSmits: AntiSquid, please respond to this

MSmits: So many things I could say now, but I have students that might read it

struct: so this is my stats 26k sims 10Mill nodes 1.3Mill expansions

MSmits: impossible

struct: 26k full plays*

MSmits: every expansion should have a full playout

MSmits: or more, even

struct: Maybe I have definition wrong

Astrobytes: You may have a bug.

struct: Or maybe this aint even mcts

struct: lol

dbdr: MSmits you need an alt :D

MSmits: hehe maybe

struct: for me expansion = make children

struct: is that wrong?

MSmits: according to the Bible it's great

Astrobytes: Most people have sex struct

MSmits: but yes, thats fine struct

struct: 26k is rolout i guess is the right definition

MSmits: cant be

MSmits: every rollout has 1 expansion

struct: Ok end games

struct: 26k end games

MSmits: every end game has 1 expansion

struct: wtf

MSmits: it's like this

MSmits: 1 selection

MSmits: 1 expansion

MSmits: 1 random playout

MSmits: 1 back propagation

MSmits: thats vanilla mcts

reCurse: 1 vanilla mcts

Default avatar.png LoGos: please

struct: Isnt that depth 1 though?

MSmits: thats 1 turn

reCurse: 1 turn

struct: hmm

MSmits: err i mean 1 iteration

MSmits: not 1 turn

reCurse: -1 turn

reCurse: 1 iteration

struct: I do something completely different then

Astrobytes: 1 bug?

reCurse: 1 delete

MSmits: reCurse i am not going to pay if this is the boosting you promised

struct: I select expand select expand select expand.. .until game ends

Astrobytes: -1 customer

MSmits: struct nope, thats wrong

MSmits: you need to play a full game after every expansion

dbdr: 1 strawberry mcts please

reCurse: We're out of strawberry

struct: So what I do isnt MCTS

dbdr: cake or death?

MSmits: no it's not

struct: I guess I need to read what it is

MSmits: yep

dbdr: might help

Astrobytes: What you do is MCST, Monte Carlo Struct Thing

MSmits: it's just struct thing

reCurse: aka Monte Carlo Programming

MSmits: there's no random

struct: I tried smitsi with this approach too

dbdr: maybe it's Markov chain Monte Carlo Tree Search

struct: I guess I now see all the flaws

Astrobytes: ST search. You invented an algo struct. article please

MSmits: well actually it works ok in smitsi

MSmits: at least, say you use depth 7 and you simply expand down to depth 7 randomly and then backpropagate

MSmits: worked fine when i did it

struct: Yes thats what I do

struct: So the step after expansion

MSmits: then Robo said he did an expansion and then random moves till depth 7, the way mcts should be

MSmits: that worked fine too

struct: is random playout?

MSmits: yes

struct: So is just random moves until game ends?

struct: and I do not need to store this data?

MSmits: yes, could be about 50-60 moves for uttt

MSmits: just the end result

struct: Just win or loss

struct: right?

MSmits: or draw

struct: yeah

MSmits: i suggest -1, 0 and 1

MSmits: feels cleaner and more symmetric than the 0, 0.5, 1 many use

struct: Yeah I have those I think

struct: 1 0 -1

MSmits: good

struct: But I think I understand now

struct: At least most of it

MSmits: You may have some sign errors when you first make it work, that make your bot pick the worst moves

MSmits: that always happens to me

Default avatar.png LoGos: struct maybe this'll help

MSmits: hmm that's no longer vanilla mcts though

MSmits: but its what I most often do

MSmits: instead of doing one random playouit, you playout from each child and add up the results

MSmits: this is preferable when the selection process is very expensive

MSmits: or when you have very few children

dbdr: Vec<Vec<Vec<(Peg, usize)>>> that should do it. if not I'll add one more dimention of Vecs

MSmits: in uttt i just do one playout

MSmits: but i tried both ways, for me 1 was best, for others it wasnt

struct: Thanks LoGos

dbdr: MSmits where does the depth 7 come from?

dbdr: just a parameter?

struct: CSB

MSmits: csb

MSmits: I stop at depth 7, i had 8 for a long time, but 7 is better apparently, 6 was worse again

dbdr: so that's early playout with an eval?

MSmits: no, csb is smitsimax... it's the same algo i use in PCR really. Just 4 disconnected trees doing their thing only connected through the simulation

MSmits: and combined eval

MSmits: *in some way*

MSmits: for PCR it's much nicer, a tree for every chip

MSmits: well the player ones, not the neutral

MSmits: but Marchete did it better obviously

Scarfield: marchet e is using GA ?

MSmits: no he;s using the same as I do

MSmits: but different move-structure and different eval

MSmits: dbdr uses some magic monte carlo.

Scarfield: okay, it will probably be the next multi i will try :)

MSmits: I liked it, but the sim is a pain

MSmits: oh seems yurkovas is now nr 1

MSmits: he also uses smitsi, at least I think that is what he told me

MSmits: he tried it in csb as well, with less success

Astrobytes: Yeah he used smitsi iirc

MSmits: I like him, he always keeps me updated and is very friendly. Hope he sticks around. Have you seen him online?

YurkovAS: MSmits yes, in PCR and CSB i use smitsimax

Astrobytes: Not for a while actually, and yeah, nice guy

MSmits: well there he is!

Astrobytes: There he is :)

MSmits: what are you working on now YurkovAS?

dbdr: :)

YurkovAS: MSmits after contest i make: Tron Battle = 38, Game of Drones = 615, Back to the Code = 920. But all is hard for me or i'm tired

MSmits: nice, i suck at tron and drones, havent tried back to the code

dbdr: bttc was my first multi

dbdr: no leagues

MSmits: oh right

Astrobytes: That's the square-filling thing with the back in time thing right? Never got around to writing a proper bot for that

struct: yes

struct: with the rollback option

Astrobytes: Yeah the time thing.

struct: Im gonna add that feature to Yavalath

Astrobytes: Is it any good?

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: fine with me :P

MSmits: just roll back and pick another move that's also in my book P

MSmits: :P

Astrobytes: And change the name to Y'avin-a-laugh?

MSmits: that would be interesting

MSmits: too bad he cant edit anymore

Astrobytes: Sorry that's rather UK-biased wordplay

MSmits: how is the UK now btw?

Astrobytes: He could always make Yava 2

struct: first Yinsh

Astrobytes: Fucked MSmits

MSmits: seemed that way from worldometer, it's up there with Italy and Spain

Astrobytes: Sorry to be so blunt

MSmits: Belgium is worst of all it seems though

Astrobytes: Govt trying to cover up their catalogue of errors

MSmits: really?

AntiSquid: Astrobytes 09:48PM Fucked MSmits and now bragging in chat?

Astrobytes: Yup.

Astrobytes: LOL AntiSquid

Astrobytes: :D

MSmits: too late AntiSquid, i called you back when patrick made his comment :(

AntiSquid: what ?

MSmits: I needed you to say stuff I can't in public

MSmits: there was much potential for jokin

Astrobytes: You need an MSmuts smurf MSmits

MSmits: ye

Astrobytes: No-one will ever guess

MSmits: at first

MSmits: second guess will be correct though

struct: Someone will find

struct: Trust me

Astrobytes: Just tell everyone someone is trolling you hard

MSmits: first guess: Hey, did Cyber come back?

struct: You cant hide forever

AntiSquid: oh hm in UK the staff in the store have a windshield basically

Astrobytes: Cyber was active in RU discord recently, not sure if he was spamming RU chat (I don't go in there)

struct: #ru

AntiSquid: i don't see why he'd take private business to the shop

wlesavo: not that i saw

MSmits: :)

Astrobytes: good for everyone in #ru :)

wlesavo: maybe he is basnned in ru?

AntiSquid: good for cyberpunk, he wastes too much time in chat

Astrobytes: Quite possible

AntiSquid: doubt it wlesavo

AntiSquid: he got once kick from main channel by Madao and then stopped writing in here claiming he was banned

wlesavo: lol

AntiSquid: actually i forgot the exact story

Astrobytes: Something like that

AntiSquid: someone about MK calling him SJW and then cyberpunk blocking him was also part of the story

AntiSquid: something *

Astrobytes: No, I think it was feminist

AntiSquid: ah but then cyber said he was called sjw

AntiSquid: cyber exaggerated some stuff

AntiSquid: i forgot why he got mad at me once

Astrobytes: not like him

Astrobytes: :P

AntiSquid: he was being a drama queen at some point before he left

Astrobytes: He's a sensitive soul

AntiSquid: he wasn't like that when afaik

AntiSquid: i remember / missremember him thick skinned

AntiSquid: non stop spam and wouldn't give a crap about the jokes coming his way

Astrobytes: Yeah, but I think he got pwned in chat too many times

Astrobytes: And gave up, in World at least

Astrobytes: Who knows

AntiSquid: it's ok, best for him to not spend entire morning typing 10-20 lines of chat in ru, that's not good use of time

AntiSquid: it was just him typing btw

Astrobytes: I've seen worse screenshots than that lol

AntiSquid: although i find chess also a waste of time , but whatever

Astrobytes: Fischer-random is nice

Astrobytes: More gameplay less memorisation

AntiSquid: ya so much chess theory just to get wrecked by a computer

Astrobytes: Don't hate the game, hate the player :P

AntiSquid: no hate

Default avatar.png JBM: let loose your hate

Astrobytes: No I'm just playing on the expression

Default avatar.png JBM: you are angry, and in your anger lies great power

Astrobytes: Emperor JBM in the house

AntiSquid: smash the chess

MSmits: ohh, you guys are embracing the dork side without me

Astrobytes: MperorSmits, sorry my Lord

Astrobytes: Don't use Force pext on me

MSmits: Bow, worm, or I'll pdep you

Astrobytes: hahaha

Default avatar.png JBM: ]

Default avatar.png JBM: err

Default avatar.png JBM: dunno how i sent that

Astrobytes: Rum?

Default avatar.png JBM: not today

Default avatar.png JBM: mmm

Default avatar.png JBM: not *yet* today

Astrobytes: ;)

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm in the belgian phase of my beers

Astrobytes: Anything nice?

AntiSquid: are you working from home and getting drunk in the morning? they can't smell your alcohol

Default avatar.png JBM: just the usual

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm just buying them from the supermarket, i'm not going to discover anything exotic there

Default avatar.png JBM: yeah, i love lockdowns

Astrobytes: True

AntiSquid: have beer in a cup and say you drink tea if you have to talk to your colleagues online

Default avatar.png JBM: so tonight was delirium tremens

Default avatar.png JBM: as overhyped as ever, but i gotta make sure every now and then

Astrobytes: Great name tho

Default avatar.png JBM: totes

AntiSquid: lockdown is fine for some people, but really fucks up the most people i think

Default avatar.png JBM: i suppose

Default avatar.png JBM: barely changed my life

AntiSquid: ya but if you work in hospitality you're screwed

Astrobytes: Doesn't fuck me up, other than work I'm pretty isolated

AntiSquid: even as a manager

Default avatar.png JBM: most non-food-related trades have had a very tough time

AntiSquid: hotels and restaurants and such are screwed

Astrobytes: Pharma PI is messed up right now, first Brexit and now this

Default avatar.png JBM: they'll recover

Default avatar.png JBM: in a slightly different shape

AntiSquid: actually pizza hut is still open and a fish and chips shop near me

Default avatar.png JBM: takeaway?

AntiSquid: ya

AntiSquid: i guess takeaways are allowed

Default avatar.png JBM: ok, you convinced me

Default avatar.png JBM: rum time

Astrobytes: :beers:

AntiSquid: well the folks in the flood plains have it worst ...

Astrobytes: And the govt continues to want to encourage building on flood plains

AntiSquid: and since there's lockdown probably nothing will be done once again and they'll get flooded again next year?

Default avatar.png JBM: i suppose it's mostly safe by now

MSmits: what is?

AntiSquid: ya wtf, it's like UK tries hard to go backward in time :/

Default avatar.png JBM: i would'nt have been caught dead there during the first weeks

Astrobytes: Indeed AntiSquid

Astrobytes: You couldn't have been dead here if you weren't actually here JBM

Astrobytes: ;)

Default avatar.png JBM: neither would i have wished to

Default avatar.png JBM: it's so hard for the general public to grasp the "exponential" concept

Astrobytes: Governments too apparently

MSmits: it could be worse. They could be telling you to drink bleach and inject desinfectant

Default avatar.png JBM: including the very ministry of health

Default avatar.png JBM: true dat

Astrobytes: Yep and yep

Astrobytes: You know he was lobbied by the peddlers of that chlorine dioxide stuff before he made that statement?

Default avatar.png JBM: who though it was better to switch positions in mid-Jan to run for the paris mayorship

Default avatar.png JBM: i still can't believe it

Astrobytes: Well played :clap:

MSmits: lobbied?

Astrobytes: UK was too busy playing at Brexiting. We were all warned.

MSmits: do you have a link/video?

AntiSquid: well if this lockdown thingy continues on for too long who knows what ideas might emerge ... "let's restructure the way we run society"

MSmits: not in my country... here be sensible people

Astrobytes: Yes MSmits,

AntiSquid: all american politicians seem crazy to me

Astrobytes: Btw, the Guardian is just about the only reliable news source left

Astrobytes: Here

AntiSquid: i hear a different opinion from everyone else

Default avatar.png JBM: yes, but this one is the Right one

Amrhossam: i want to create a new social platform like twitter or facebook

Amrhossam: any thoughts ?

Default avatar.png JBM: great idea

Astrobytes: They give column space to anyone from any party ideology, they fact-check

Default avatar.png JBM: why are you wasting time on chat instead of coding?

Amrhossam: time is not wasted discussing ideas

Default avatar.png JBM: ok

Default avatar.png JBM: discuss ahead

Amrhossam: what do you think is missing from those two

Default avatar.png JBM: integrity

AntiSquid: my thought is JUST DO IT

Astrobytes: AmrhossamGramBook is the future

AntiSquid: your users will tell you what they want

Default avatar.png JBM: how's diaspora going btw

Amrhossam: more details about integrity ?

Amrhossam: tell me what do you mean

AntiSquid: what's that Astrobytes ?

AntiSquid: are you looking for success or are you looking to please people Amrhossam ?

Astrobytes: What's what AntiSquid?

AntiSquid: grambook

Default avatar.png JBM: i was more in a "what's your sellout price" mood

AntiSquid: spot on JBM

Astrobytes: Just playing with his username and a portmanteau of that + Instagram + FB

Default avatar.png JBM: now where's that onion video

AntiSquid: i liked hi5 back when it had chat rooms

AntiSquid: and before they added the ability to edit your profile with all sorts of weird addons (scripts, css styles, etc)

Default avatar.png JBM: Here we go:

AntiSquid: the onion is the only honest news source

AntiSquid: wow that audience is so serious JBM

Default avatar.png JBM: innit

Astrobytes: That's spot on lol

Amrhossam: i thought about a feature that already exist but tried to implement it in a different way

Amrhossam: maybe it's implemented wrong and i'd like to enhance it

Amrhossam: is this okay ?

Astrobytes: By removing any privacy whatsoever?

Amrhossam: No

AntiSquid: ok honestly, at the moment most serious social media site is Minds, but i don't even use that

Astrobytes: Shame on you. It won't work Amrhossam

Amrhossam: User will have full control about his content and maybe all the data will be encrypted

Amrhossam: so no data selling for adv companies

Astrobytes: Until the government demands data from you

Amrhossam: only if you're storing it on a server elsewhere

Amrhossam: then

Amrhossam: you can tell. sorry i can't even access for taht

Amrhossam: that*

Amrhossam: i mean, you can encrypt your data even from your gov.

Astrobytes: Yes, but when they come and break down your door...

AntiSquid: JBM check out WeChat, politically controlled social media platform used all over china

Amrhossam: why you're taking the subject to the extreme now :d

Default avatar.png JBM: you can

Amrhossam: okay here's a question.

Default avatar.png JBM: but are you allowed to?

Amrhossam: what do you guys think about stories features implemented in both instagram and facebook

Amrhossam: something is missing from it right

Amrhossam: it doesn't feel natural

AntiSquid: Amrhossam what world do you live in?

Amrhossam: @AntiSquid the same world you live in

AntiSquid: the reason facebook and instagram and other sites work are because they grab the attention of the user and get them addicted, that's what you need to aim for lol

Default avatar.png JBM: prove it

AntiSquid: then i don't have pink tinted grasses on Amrhossam

Astrobytes: *rose

AntiSquid: snapchat is great for teens to pull funny faces and share them

Amrhossam: you're right, getting people addicted you have to give them what they didn't know they needed to

AntiSquid: you need to cater to the dumb and gullible

Astrobytes: That's modern capitalism

AntiSquid: Amrhossam more like convince them they needed your product ...

Astrobytes: Sorry, neoliberal economics

AntiSquid: and make sure the font you use on your website is pretty (learn from Steve Jobs)

Amrhossam: i see

Astrobytes: Did you watch the Iron Sky movies yet AntiSquid

Amrhossam: maybe i'm ambitious, or maybe i'm still naive

AntiSquid: is it about nazis on the moon?

Astrobytes: Naive yes

Astrobytes: Yes AntiSquid

AntiSquid: yes years ago, why

Astrobytes: The 2nd one features a cult that worship Steve Jobs

AntiSquid: oh

AntiSquid: well makes sense

Amrhossam: but even if i'm naive there's still opportunities from ideas right ?

MSmits: are the nazi's the ones that made the flag seem like it was fake to make people think the moonlanding wasnt real?

Astrobytes: And Nazis at the centre of the earth

Astrobytes: And dinosaurs

AntiSquid: no religion of memes and people praying to lolcat ?

Amrhossam: i mean this can't be it we are all set and got what we got

Astrobytes: No but close

AntiSquid: well i mean, you could aim for utility based social media

Astrobytes: That's a good attitude Amrhossam

AntiSquid: if it's EXTREMELY USEFUL like let's say github then people will use it!

AntiSquid: but you stil lend up selling out people, see google

MSmits: is google worse than facebook?

Astrobytes: Yeah, I'd focus on making something useful. But as AntiSquid says.... at some point the investment groups come knocking

MSmits: facebook aided genocide, pretty hard to top that

Astrobytes: Is drowning worse than burning MSmits?

MSmits: i think burning is worse

MSmits: but I get your point

MSmits: you're saying you should get both facebook and google so you can put out the fire

Astrobytes: It depends. Some people drown rather peacefully, others have a reaction which makes them continue to gasp for air

Astrobytes: lol, if they cancelled each other out that'd be great

MSmits: personally I dont use any social media. Except this I guess

AntiSquid: more likely to cooperate

MSmits: oh and sometimes educational youtube i guess

AntiSquid: they are there to make money not shut down each other to make people happy

Astrobytes: I have to use FB to keep in touch with a few stubborn people

MSmits: ah

MSmits: my wife does that

AntiSquid: i deleted my facebook although i lost contact with quite a lot of people, i just couldn't stand that site anymore

MSmits: good

Default avatar.png JBM: what's the fb/genocide story?

MSmits: google facebook myanmar

Astrobytes: I use email, discord or whatever to keep in touch. Some people just don't want to lose their FB it seems


MSmits: facebook had 2 moderators for the entire area

MSmits: so people just used facebook to gather up and mob moslims, killing them

AntiSquid: i like discord, no idea about what harm they could do if they wanted to ...

AntiSquid: but facebook is thought policing people

MSmits: worse is when they aren't policing at all

Astrobytes: MSmits I'm sure it's not the only example. I mean (OK it's not genocide) but we have vigilante groups in our town who operate on FB

MSmits: they just allow fake news to exist

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm not quite clear how i think they're responsible

Default avatar.png JBM: (after a cursory glance)

Default avatar.png JBM: yes, they do

Astrobytes: JBM, the point was they allowed loads of fake accounts to spread fake news

MSmits: if you provide a tool for governments to spread false information you're aiding it

Default avatar.png JBM: yeah sure

MSmits: it's their servers

AntiSquid: MSmits actually someone told me "die you motherf***" on facebook, unprovoked actually, facebook tells me it doesn't violate their standards, was initially talking about food wtf ... :/

Astrobytes: Like they do with most countries fake news fake posters

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm not sure how i'd expect them to determine what's fake or not

Astrobytes: I reported an animal mutilation video on FB once and they said it was allowed

MSmits: if it's inciting hate and you can't fact check it, remove it

MSmits: err on the side of caution

Default avatar.png JBM: but caution is censure

Default avatar.png JBM: censorship

Default avatar.png JBM: what's the word

Astrobytes: Censorship

Default avatar.png JBM: the verb, to censor?

Astrobytes: Yep

MSmits: Would you be ok with a news network broadcasting verifiable lies as news?

Default avatar.png JBM: i don't think i ever read it in en

Default avatar.png JBM: nope

Default avatar.png JBM: but they're not a news network

MSmits: facebook is the only source of news for many people

Astrobytes: censure is also a word

AntiSquid: when corporations grow too big their like small countries, ruling over their users

Default avatar.png JBM: yes, that's a problem

AntiSquid: they're

Default avatar.png JBM: but it's not a problem i can sincerely hold against fb

MSmits: who would you hold it against?

Default avatar.png JBM: humankind

AntiSquid: fb should be policed by the US, enforce free speech imo

MSmits: that's easy to say

Default avatar.png JBM: well you asked for it

MSmits: true

Astrobytes: In the case of Myanmar Aung San Suu Kyi probably, and the West for allowing it

Default avatar.png JBM: i wouldn't have specifically held it against anyone spontaneously

Default avatar.png JBM: it's just a fact of life

Default avatar.png JBM: an observation

MSmits: the thing is, servers are actively being maintained

Default avatar.png JBM: humakind is capable of the best, but it's the worst that spreads

Astrobytes: So true

MSmits: if as a company your products are being misused for this sort of thing, I think you should be held accountable by the country your company is based in

MSmits: if you dont respond

MSmits: they could have just removed all accounts

Default avatar.png JBM: on mere moral grounds?

MSmits: yes

Default avatar.png JBM: i don't see that working anytime soon

Amrhossam: it wouldn't make much sense if i asked what utilities do you might think you need right ?

Default avatar.png JBM: Especially in a suit-seeking country as the US

MSmits: things don't have to be easy to fix, to be worth fixing

AntiSquid: Amrhossam this is what true success looks like :

Default avatar.png JBM: but saying "things shoulg be so" doesn't "fix" things

MSmits: it's mostly a political problem

AntiSquid: or like this Amrhossam :

Default avatar.png JBM: how do you make everyone agree to the same set of morals?

AntiSquid: and there you need to pull a poker face and tell half truths

MSmits: some things are no-brainers JBM. You don't have to touch the more controversial things

Astrobytes: "it's mostly a political problem" - whether we like it or not, everything's political

Default avatar.png JBM: i don't think it's that easy

AntiSquid: Amrhossam try online chat rooms, or whatever, make it easy for people to socialize, simple as that

MSmits: we have a set of laws don't we? They are based on morals and even though we dont all share the same morals, we share the same laws

MSmits: within a country that is

Default avatar.png JBM: yes

Astrobytes: What if the laws are immoral

Default avatar.png JBM: and as for now, they don't force anyone to police news spread by individuals at the other end of the world

AntiSquid: MSmits for example everyone hates trump, but then people overlook Pelosi promoting to hug chinese people when the outbreak started, imo that's the grey area, although all US politicians are nutjobs

Astrobytes: Well, it's tricky to get information out of some places

MSmits: my idea would be to set a limit on views. If a post has x views it has to be fact checked

Default avatar.png JBM: but how do you tell jokes apart from fake news?

Astrobytes: How would you determine which x is needed?

Default avatar.png JBM: preventing sharing good jokes seems imoral

MSmits: Astrobytes implementation detail

Default avatar.png JBM: lol

Default avatar.png JBM: famous last words

MSmits: you could say 10k

MSmits: or whatever is agreed upon

AntiSquid: ya easy to trigger someone these days and be called insensitive

Default avatar.png JBM: yeah, ok for a threshold

Astrobytes: 10k might have laughed at it and thought "what a load of shit"

Default avatar.png JBM: it's the decision problem you need to expand on

MSmits: i am not talking about talk offending people, just spreading obvious misinformation

Default avatar.png JBM: "obvious"

MSmits: real world facts

Default avatar.png JBM: you keep using that world

Default avatar.png JBM: typo, but i like it

Astrobytes: Yeah, it works

AntiSquid: MSmits what is a fact? the COVID was only considered a pandemic like 2 months after the entire world knew about it

AntiSquid: before that everyone said it's all good and rosy

MSmits: it's not actually that black and white AntiSquid

MSmits: pandemic is a definition

Default avatar.png JBM: we mustn't be in the same circles

MSmits: but the disease was there and people knew it

Astrobytes: No actually that's an epidemiological thing, declaring a pandemic

Default avatar.png JBM: i've had charts of wuhan's exponential since early january in my twitter feed

AntiSquid: yes and the WHO did they spread misinfo or not?

Astrobytes: No they did not

Default avatar.png JBM: "not that i know"

AntiSquid: then why did they hate on Taiwan ?

MSmits: well they were overly positive about China

Astrobytes: And everyone has had access to data and papers since the end of last year

AntiSquid: MSmits and that wasn't misguiding at all?

MSmits: of course it was

Default avatar.png JBM: what's the taiwan hate story?

AntiSquid: exactly my point

MSmits: but if you can't factcheck something you dont have to remove it of course

MSmits: some things are easy to fact check

AntiSquid: JBM basically taiwan reacted immediately and was called out as "racist/discriminating"

AntiSquid: but then we are all in lockdown now so maybe they didn't overreact eh?

Astrobytes: Chinese COVID-19 death rates not being one of them

Default avatar.png JBM: by the WHO?

MSmits: if someone starts posting it is a good idea to drink bleach to cure covid, fact checking isnt a problem

AntiSquid: yes

Default avatar.png JBM: didn't hear about it at the time

Astrobytes: Source?


Default avatar.png JBM: barely heard about taiwan tbh, my asia news were shared between "wuhan virus" and "hk protests"

AntiSquid: well you can look for sources out there

MSmits: I also saw an interview where China refused to call Taiwan a country or something

MSmits: sorry

MSmits: where the who refused

Default avatar.png JBM: that's, like, par for the course

Astrobytes: Yeah went straight from HK to Wuhan very swiftly

AntiSquid: and what was that crap in italy about hugging chinese people ?

AntiSquid: then the outbreak in italy was pretty much the worst in europe


Astrobytes: Dude, we had people in this town refusing to eat from the Chinese takeaway then rushing out to stockpile soy sauce and pasta

Default avatar.png JBM: humankind...

Default avatar.png JBM: and Corona beers tanking in the US

AntiSquid: ya, but point is why was that promoted at all Astrobytes ?

Default avatar.png JBM: because people "like" it

AntiSquid: actually i didn't give a damn about the news back then just went out to eat at a chinese place because it was chinese new year

Astrobytes: It appeals to their sense of blaming 'the other'

MSmits: honestly, this talk of blaming covid on China is very hypocritical. These same people dont give a sht that China has 1 million people in concentration camps

MSmits: so much worse

Astrobytes: The general population can't deal with unknowns

Default avatar.png JBM: let's get them to ooc

Astrobytes: Always have to find a target to blame

AntiSquid: it's not about blaming china, it's about the media in the west not being honest

AntiSquid: it doesn't matter where it came from, maybe next time it comes from elsewhere

Astrobytes: Since when has the Western media (for the most part) been honest?

BenjaminUrquhart: this

Default avatar.png JBM: what even *is* "honest"

BenjaminUrquhart: no stop

MSmits: I dunno, in my country they are at worst biased towards sensationalism.

Astrobytes: Fair JBM

AntiSquid: point was how can you "control" such dishonesty ? you either get skewed thought policing or you just let everyone speak up their mind

MSmits: its difficult to navigate AntiSquid

Default avatar.png JBM: and crowds are so dumb

AntiSquid: was giving an example regarding "control of missinformation"

MSmits: but either extreme is bad

Astrobytes: I guess we can call it a rough period in human evolution

MSmits: and we are on one of the two extremes now

AntiSquid: difficult to navigate means, either you give everyone same freedom to speak up, or you shut up some in favor of the others

MSmits: it;s not about who says it, it's about what they say

AntiSquid: and who's policing it?

Astrobytes: Yes AntiSquid, on the one hand you need to be able to speak freely, on the other hand how do you manage blatant lies

AntiSquid: who's watching the watchers ?

Astrobytes: Corporation bosses mostlyu

MSmits: I think governments should be a bit more involved in this

Astrobytes: *mostly

Astrobytes: Not the UK govt jeez

Default avatar.png JBM: wishful thinking

AntiSquid: we go through blatant lies every day, that was my point, in fact you said there's only one reliable source of news Astrobytes, so maybe it's all about people smartening up and not being pampered (protected from blatant lies)

Default avatar.png JBM: [big] govts only get involved as far as their personal agenda goes

MSmits: AntiSquid that assumes people are intelligent enough to do this, most are not

Default avatar.png JBM: and that's assuming they understand what's going on

MSmits: this is the biggest failing of democracy also

Default avatar.png JBM: that's a good point

Default avatar.png JBM: EDUCATION

Default avatar.png JBM: vote for more education

Astrobytes: AntiSquid, I'm not disagreeing with you, and I didn't say it was the only source of reliable news, it's one of the only reliable sources of news here in the UK

MSmits: without education, a dictatorship actually functions better than a democracy

Default avatar.png JBM: *that* changes societies for the better

AntiSquid: 350 mil to the NHS if brexit happens, lots of people voted just because of that MSmits, next day farage went back on his word lol

Default avatar.png JBM: (that and health)

AntiSquid: get my point?

MSmits: I know

Default avatar.png JBM: so that was fake news

Default avatar.png JBM: so it should have been filtered

Default avatar.png JBM: right?

MSmits: if you dont know it beforehand, you cant filter it

Default avatar.png JBM: you can disprove it

Astrobytes: yeah, so far, an old war veteran has raised more money (public money) for the NHS than the govt since Brexit

Default avatar.png JBM: fact checkers at fb now must have a PhD in economics

MSmits: were these the lies on buses btw>

MSmits: ?

Astrobytes: You all are aware of the Cambridge Analytica involvement in Brexit right? And their ties with Steve Bannon and the Trump campaign?

AntiSquid: no, just the one campaign bus afaik

MSmits: Astrobytes yeah

AntiSquid: heard something about it

MSmits: they sold facebook info

MSmits: didnt they?

Astrobytes: The Guardian did a huge exposé over abotu a year AntiSquid, look it up

Astrobytes: *about

AntiSquid: proves how powerful data science and ML is ?

MSmits: definitely is

MSmits: btw, about the educaton thing. Me and my colleague are also trying to come up with ways to make students more resistant to fake news

Astrobytes: One of the data scientists involved with Brexit is an assistant to Dominic Cummings, and they both sit in on SAGE meetings AntiSquid

MSmits: one of the compulsory parts of our CS curriculum is ethics

AntiSquid: MSmits imo you can't guide people to what's fake and what not and neither should you control how they perceive, i am a bit idealistic here, but everyone should reach their own conclusions and reach the truth that way

Astrobytes: (SAGE is Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies i nthe UK btw)

MSmits: you need skills to do this AntiSquid

Default avatar.png JBM: like the people trump fired?

Astrobytes: Kind of

MSmits: it's like how some people believe the Nigerian Prince and some do not

Astrobytes: We also are refusing to publish the results of a grim excercise on a 'flu pandemic from a few years ago that highlighted how unprepared we would be

Astrobytes: *exercise

Astrobytes: That's now being legally challenged

AntiSquid: idk about preparing, i mean did we prepare for floods, it's like jumping straight in ... same with the pandemic, jump in get herd immunity

MSmits: does it really matter that much though? Isn't the UK split almost as much into political parties as the US is?

MSmits: truth seems to matter so much less these days :(

Astrobytes: AntiSquid, the point is that this government focused on austerity, punishing the poor and maximising their profits. Selling everything off, whether building contracts or NHS, and are now where we are



MSmits: seems like everything i see and hear about the US, exists in the UK to a lesser degree

MSmits: still bad


Astrobytes: Yes, we apparently aim to be (to use a Brexit term) a vassal state of the US. The irony.

MSmits: yes

MSmits: but trump is very unpopular in the UK

MSmits: except for a few crazies, I think

Astrobytes: Yet people can't see past the end of their own noses

MSmits: true

AntiSquid: interesting, thanks for sharing

Astrobytes: Deceived in exactly the same way

MSmits: well, not exactly. I mean I am pretty sure that if you guys had a government that was as bad as the US one, it would be way more unpopular.

MSmits: Trump still has over 40% support, which is insane

Astrobytes: AntiSquid you can usually trace all the stuff in the guardian back to papers, documents etc, that's why I count it as reliable

Astrobytes: Oh ours is bad MSmits

AntiSquid: ah i see, good point

Astrobytes: Just not on the same level internationally, and our PM is not an actual retard

MSmits: oh, I had another idea!

MSmits: do you know how, with smoking, companies have to put a label on it

MSmits: this stuff causes cancer and what not

Astrobytes: Do we put warnings on textbooks now - May Cause Knowledge?

MSmits: what if social media were forced to provide links to real news media whenever an algorithm detects something resembling news

Astrobytes: "real news media" falls victim to it too, that's why

Astrobytes: *why not

Astrobytes: There's reliable media, and non-reliable

MSmits: well it's more controllable and more visible. Even something like Fox news is not as extreme as many others

MSmits: you simply would not list those

AntiSquid: MSmits actually cigarettes were advertised as healthy beneficial at some point, so again all about who controls the info

Astrobytes: ^true

MSmits: that was due to corruption, when we as a society realized that was not true, we did something about it

Default avatar.png JBM: as was wine here

AntiSquid: search "Vintage Cigarette Ads Promising Better Health"

MSmits: I know about this

Default avatar.png JBM: and radioactivity!

MSmits: that too

MSmits: just because mistakes were made in the past, is no reason to stop trying to do your best to fix/prevent more :)

Default avatar.png JBM: what other crazy thing have we promoted?

AntiSquid: well facebook is corrupt, if they control "the missinfo" then you see where this is going ...

Astrobytes: Yeah but MSmits, this was going on in Romania even recently as AntiSquid can probably confirm. I used to work with a Romanian girl who worked for Philip Morris Tobacco and had no clue for years

MSmits: the coca cola company does this now too

Default avatar.png JBM: sugar

AntiSquid: i don't watch the news so don't know Astrobytes, i live in UK so i only know about my daily life tbh

MSmits: they are not allowed in many western countries to spread misinformation about sugar being healthy

Astrobytes: *recently as in the past decade or 2

MSmits: so they try it in countries without these laws

icecream17: huh? I have 2 chat streams....

Default avatar.png JBM: that's the first think i noticed about czechia when i first went there

Default avatar.png JBM: 1) ads all over the landscape

AntiSquid: i don't remember any cigar ads though Astrobytes

Default avatar.png JBM: 2) about cigarettes and gambling

Astrobytes: I don't keep up to date with Romanian news either AntiSquid, don't be so touchy

Astrobytes: :)

Astrobytes: No it wasn't so much ads, just knowledge, smoking was cool etc

AntiSquid: ya but that's just culture

MSmits: ads for smoking on tv are simply illegal here

Default avatar.png JBM: here too

Astrobytes: "Just culture" is exactly the point though

Default avatar.png JBM: tv or other

AntiSquid: everyone knows it's bad, they still smoke

Default avatar.png JBM: icecream17: good for you!

MSmits: yet it helps not to advertise

AntiSquid: going for a cigar is like going for a coffe

MSmits: doesnt fix the problem entirely

Astrobytes: It's changing now, less people are smoking

Default avatar.png JBM: and not legalize making it "cool"

Default avatar.png JBM: dunno about NL, but I do get the feeling many more smoke in DE than FR

MSmits: going for cigar is not the problem really. It's people smoking more than they're eating

MSmits: going through the day smoking non stop

MSmits: they cost the government huge amounts of money too, we all pay for it


Astrobytes: Nicotine does have appetite supressing properties

MSmits: lol, restart browser icecream17

MSmits: Astrobytes yeah... nicotine isnt the worst in a cigarette I think

AntiSquid: is it possible for you to edit out the extra element icecream17 ?

Astrobytes: No it's fine MSmits

Astrobytes: I actually started vaping again recently

Astrobytes: I quit smoking 2+ years ago

MSmits: ohh ok

AntiSquid: isn't vaping still somewhat bad ? although clearly far less dangerous than smoking

MSmits: it's probably less regulated because it's not as old

Default avatar.png JBM: i had a swedish doctor tell me chew-nicotine was actually rather good

Default avatar.png JBM: haven't fact-checked yet

Astrobytes: I don't give a fuck, I suffer with depression and anxiety sometimes and the vaping helps

wlesavo: AntiSquid it probably strongly depends on product quality

Astrobytes: JBM I used to snus all the time

MSmits: Astrobytes sure, just be careful about the company you buy from, they might not all be trustworthy

Default avatar.png JBM: Astrobytes: so how was your health (and that of the other 99 people in the control group)?

Astrobytes: I buy nicotine and mix my own flavours with propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine

Astrobytes: And build my own coils. My vape is just a simple circuit

MSmits: I'm somehow addicted to cola with no caffeine and no sugar

Default avatar.png JBM: so you like water?

Default avatar.png JBM: we all do, though we wouldn't admit it

AntiSquid: the flavor i guess

Default avatar.png JBM: flavor is sugar

Default avatar.png JBM: cooked sugar

Default avatar.png JBM: caramel as they say

MSmits: no, it has artificial sweetener

Astrobytes: JBM, my health while snus'ing? Great! I used it coming off cigarettes for a while actually

AntiSquid: aspartane addiction?

Default avatar.png JBM: so you'd recommend it to non-smokers?

MSmits: if that's a thing, then sure

Astrobytes: No

Default avatar.png JBM: that's kind of an orange flag

Astrobytes: Why start tobacco use as a non-user?

Default avatar.png JBM: i dunno

Default avatar.png JBM: people start as non-smokers and do anyway

Default avatar.png JBM: you tell me!

Astrobytes: There are tobacco free snus portions which I recommend if you like the flavours

MSmits: after you started, it might not be worth stopping, given the circumstances

MSmits: as Astrobytes said, if it helps with depression and whatnot...

Default avatar.png JBM: ah, the moneys

MSmits: but if you never started, it's different

Astrobytes: I started smoking at 12. Fucking 12 years old.

Default avatar.png JBM: there was that House episode where the solution was to fsckn' start smoking again

Astrobytes: Took me til I was about 17 to realise it was kinda hard to stop

MSmits: yeah that wouldnt happen these days i think Astrobytes, not as easily anyway

Astrobytes: Indeed

MSmits: btw, I failed at making Bandas early playout, while we were chatting about all this stuff

Astrobytes: Good thing with vaping is I know I can come off it in a week

Default avatar.png JBM: and i'm failing at catching up on codejam

Default avatar.png JBM: though i do feel like i'm making progres

MSmits: no i meant, i really did try, it just didnt work :P

AntiSquid: oh our distraction worked, hi five everyone, we beat MSmits

AntiSquid: nvm then

Astrobytes: lol

Astrobytes: The codejame problems looked interesting, I took a quick look earlier

Astrobytes: *codejam

MSmits: i made masks for counting the pink and blue dudes on various distances from the edge, to get a sensible eval, but couldnt make it work better than my other version

Astrobytes: Wear a different mask MSmits

MSmits: :mask:

AntiSquid: done a smoking cessation "course", to talk to people who wish to stop smoking, first guy i end up talking to says "hey i changed my mind,m i enjoy smoking, thanks for coming by though"

MSmits: lol wth

Astrobytes: haha

Astrobytes: That was me for years

Default avatar.png JBM: yeah, round 1C is usually "doable, please be fast"

Astrobytes: The day I picked up a vape I gave away my tobacco (I smoke handrolled only) and that was it

Default avatar.png JBM: (as opposed to 1B "pick the problems you'll finish carefully")

Astrobytes: I need to try and remember to enter it one of these years :P

MSmits: it's easier to quit smoking when your life gets easier

Astrobytes: Mine got harder MSmits

MSmits: my mother wasn't able to stop for like 40 years

MSmits: but when she retired she could do it

Astrobytes: So I contest your conjecture

MSmits: no i meant stop completely

MSmits: i remember her trying to quit before like 20 yrs ago, it goes well for a month, maybe two, then something bad happens and you start again

AntiSquid: some people can just stop anytime

AntiSquid: or maybe they are stingy ? idk

MSmits: Astrobytes i dont mean life gets easier when you stop

MSmits: i mean it's easier to stop when your life is easier

MSmits: AntiSquid it's genetic I think

MSmits: some people are more susceptible to Nicotine addiction

Astrobytes: No MSmits, my life was legit *a lot* harder when I decided to stop!

MSmits: ahh ok, that might just be you though

MSmits: doesn't have to be a general thing :)

Astrobytes: The vape really worked for me.

MSmits: generally, I think bad habits are harder to break when you're not feeling too great

Astrobytes: I tried everything else previously

Astrobytes: Yes, that's a fair generalisation

MSmits: yeah, thats maybe a bit like what i did with my cola addiction

MSmits: I replaced it with non-caffeinated version...

MSmits: caffeine was giving me loads of problems

MSmits: i got hyperventilation and stuff

Astrobytes: My mum did that. Was addicted to diet coke for years afterwards. With the caffeine tho :P

Astrobytes: Really? How much were you drinking?

MSmits: ah, i never did the sugar version

MSmits: 1 bottle a day

MSmits: 1,5 L

Astrobytes: My mum used to get through 6L Diet per day when I was I kid/teen

MSmits: thats crazy

Astrobytes: Plus coffee

MSmits: 6L? How do you even do that

Astrobytes: Hardly ate

AntiSquid: and how is she now?

BenjaminUrquhart: ah yes the coke diet

Astrobytes: She was always on the move, driving, on flights etc

Astrobytes: She's alright, high blood pressure but nothing too serious

MSmits: yeah but still 6L, thats 8 of the biggest cups isnt it?

Astrobytes: Yeah but it was in small amounts from like 3-4am til midnight

MSmits: hm ok

MSmits: well if it's diet, it's mostly caffeine + intestinal problems

Astrobytes: She doesn't drink soft drinks any more

MSmits: aspartane will become dangerous after over 30: I think

Astrobytes: Nor do I

MSmits: 30L i mean

MSmits: ah ok

Astrobytes: I drink water or fresh orange juice

MSmits: water is best

MSmits: orange juice is a bit sugary I think

Astrobytes: Been a fan of it all my life

Astrobytes: Yeah don't overdo it on fruit juice

Astrobytes: I sometimes juice my own fruit and veg

Astrobytes: We do need sugar as humans you know

MSmits: ahh, I eat carrots as candy. Other than that no veg and fruit besides what's in the powder I make shakes out of :P

Astrobytes: Just not too much ;)

Astrobytes: lol, heathen

Astrobytes: Dip those carrots in some nice homemade hummus

MSmits: the carrots is just to have something to chew occasionally

MSmits: apparently chewing is a need

Astrobytes: I have that issue as a vegetarian sometimes

Astrobytes: "Wow, I used a fork today!"

MSmits: I would be a vegetarian if I didnt go to a snack bar every 1-2 weeks

AntiSquid: as opposed to chop sticks?

MSmits: thats the only time i eat meat

Astrobytes: Spoons AntiSquid, I eat a lot of rice and dal, and other Indian stuff

Astrobytes: BUT chopsticks tonight

Astrobytes: noodles on the menu

AntiSquid: curry and nut roasts dinners eh?

Astrobytes: Fuck nut roasts

AntiSquid: :FD

Astrobytes: You can have a different veggie meal every day for over a year just by choosing Indian veg dishes from different areas

Astrobytes: IF you can get the veg

MSmits: I'm sure that's great, but it sounds horrible to me

Astrobytes: Foodist!

Astrobytes: :P

MSmits: nah, I'm just an extreme fussy eater

Astrobytes: Hadn't noticed that at all...

MSmits: that in combination with trying to eat healthy, is why i started doing the shakes

AntiSquid: thai curry is only curry i really like :p

MSmits: at least then i wont slowly kill myself :P

Astrobytes: I love a good Thai curry

Astrobytes: I have issues cause of fish sauce and shrimp paste but I break my rules sometimes

Astrobytes: *dried shrimp

Astrobytes: I still miss some nice meat things, but I don't mind so much because I can cook tasty shit

MSmits: thats good

Astrobytes: Not literally shit ofc

MSmits: I dont judge

Astrobytes: :P

MSmits: you know what bothers me sometimes

MSmits: seeing parents pass their bad habits like smoking/drinking/obesity on to their children

MSmits: with the excuse: "well i do it, cant forbid them then can i? "

Astrobytes: Happens alllll the time

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: it's child abuse

AntiSquid: Astrobytes

Astrobytes: MSmits this song is literally about that

MSmits: ah right

Astrobytes: AntiSquid I've tasted some great stuff, aaaaannnd some really fucking vile shit

MSmits: so you did taste shit

AntiSquid: maybe they wanted to mimic the taste of innards ?

MSmits: again, I dont judge

Astrobytes: LOL MSmits :D

Astrobytes: You're supposed to be listening to the Offspring

MSmits: I think we've all been curious from time to time

MSmits: there's only so many times you can hear someone say it tastes like shit

MSmits: and think, am i the only one who doesnt know?

Astrobytes: Well... I guess there's only one thign for it

Astrobytes: *thing

MSmits: right

Astrobytes: Personally, I'm content with imagining

MSmits: so you're imagining it now

Astrobytes: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Astrobytes: stupid game

MSmits: what game

Astrobytes: fucking daisy tulip bastard thing

MSmits: oh, i havent started that

MSmits: seems hard

Astrobytes: It's 'fun'

Astrobytes: Trying to come up with a decent eval that's consistent

Astrobytes: And prune some stuff

Astrobytes: The codeine tablets aren't helping matters tbh

MSmits: prune a lot it would seem?

MSmits: coughing?

MSmits: or back?

Astrobytes: On the larger maps yeah

Astrobytes: Back

MSmits: ah ok, not getting any better?

Astrobytes: Docs again on Monday

Astrobytes: Fucking agony man

Astrobytes: If I sit up straight and don't move I'm cool, or stand up straight and don't move I'm cool

MSmits: sucks :(

Astrobytes: You see the issue

MSmits: yes

reCurse: So don't move

Astrobytes: Tried

Default avatar.png JBM: moving makes you tired

Default avatar.png JBM: you shouldn't do it

Astrobytes: Unfortunately I cannot just sit in the chair all day and swallow painkillers

Default avatar.png JBM: no

Default avatar.png JBM: you could torture patiente too

MSmits: it helps if you know exactly what it is and that it's going away on its own

Default avatar.png JBM: and make tv out of it

Astrobytes: lol JBM

Default avatar.png JBM: you missed your path there pal

Astrobytes: Yes MSmits, it's a bit up in the air atm unfortunately

Astrobytes: Anyway, I'm not here to moan

Astrobytes: Honest

MSmits: thats ok by me, it's not like you do it all day

MSmits: well not on chat anyway

Default avatar.png JBM: was about to bounce on that ^^

Astrobytes: :D

MSmits: :P

Astrobytes: Arrr I'm done.

Astrobytes: Stupid eval/game/universe :P

reCurse: +1

Default avatar.png JBM: humankind strikes again

Astrobytes: no JBM, it's the game you see, it's bugged and/or trolling me you see...

Default avatar.png JBM: yes yes

Default avatar.png JBM: i so see

AntiSquid: the galactic spirit be damned

Astrobytes: hehe

Astrobytes: Anyway, think I'll go and supplement my painkillers with a shot or two of palinka and some nooodles

Astrobytes: Or noodles

Astrobytes: See you all tomorrow

AntiSquid: bye

AntiSquid: gn8

MSmits: gn all, going to sleep also

LelouchVC2: :o

LelouchVC2: Night

cegprakash: does anyone know a good C++ stl library for matrix multiplications, vector multiplications etc?

cegprakash: I'm planning to start with NN soon

ZarthaxX: make it yourself

ZarthaxX: if you are talking outside CG, use npython with numpy

cegprakash: if I do it myself it'll be full of bugs

cegprakash: xD

LelouchVC2: Worst advice ever, make ur own library!

cegprakash: but I think for c++ it may be worth it

cegprakash: while a python guy trains for 1 hour I would train under 10 minutes

inoryy: that's not how it works

AntiSquid: lol ZarthaxX response :D

AntiSquid: why don't you make it for him ZarthaxX ? :p

LelouchVC2: He would, but he's busy with other libraries!

PortalBot: he's busy saving the world!

KiwiTae: its a good exercise though , ZarthaxX good advice

Amrhossam: join clash

Amrhossam: now

Zenoscave: Amrhossam no



Amrhossam: what are you doing guys

Zenoscave: anything but clash

Amrhossam: follow me on twitter then

Zenoscave: nope

Amrhossam: @amrhossam96

Amrhossam: you said anything

Amrhossam: stick to your word

Zenoscave: Anything != everything ;)

Amrhossam: clever

LelouchVC2: Something with clash of code and leap years

LelouchVC2: I'll figure it out one day

Default avatar.png romrd468: well for some reason velocity*1000 for csb works ok

LelouchVC2: I'm starting to hate this site

LelouchVC2: Every clash these days seems to have the weirdest prompts that barely describe the problem

LelouchVC2: And passing all the tests rarely means 100% score anymore

LelouchVC2: Then Python noobs come in and solve it in half a second with one line.

Default avatar.png fvla: i do resent some fastest mode prompts

Default avatar.png fvla: that are just 1 line math print statements

LelouchVC2: And now more predominately ruby coders

Default avatar.png fvla: which language do you use?

LelouchVC2: :((

LelouchVC2: c++

Default avatar.png fvla: you need to use a scripting language

Default avatar.png fvla: you really do on clash of code

Default avatar.png fvla: because c++ doesn't have good text processing out of the box

Default avatar.png fvla: if you don't like that, then stay away from clash

Default avatar.png fvla: and do bot programming and puzzles

LelouchVC2: C++ has some pretty good string processing which comes in handy

Default avatar.png fvla: i mean, it does

LelouchVC2: Just usually takes more code and a little more logic

Default avatar.png fvla: exactly

Default avatar.png fvla: you can't do it fast like in python

LelouchVC2: I'll use a script language when I'm sucking obama's d

LelouchVC2: Which might be soon

Default avatar.png fvla: format(int(input()), 'b')

LelouchVC2: ;-;

Default avatar.png fvla: take 1 line of single integer input and convert it to 0s and 1s

Default avatar.png fvla: python

Default avatar.png fvla: it's not just "a little more logic" in c++

Default avatar.png fvla: and don't suck obama's d

Default avatar.png fvla: but don't be too stubborn either

Default avatar.png fvla: python is great for prototyping

Default avatar.png fvla: i don't know about ruby, but that's just because i never needed to use it

Default avatar.png fvla: perl is also better at some tasks, but if you want maintainable code, stick to python

Default avatar.png fvla: javascript is more like c++ and java, but a scripting language...and i have a personal vendetta against it, but it's used too many places to not use it...

Default avatar.png fvla: but learn python/ruby/javascript, then use it for quick prototyping

LelouchVC2: *shudders*

LelouchVC2: I went through crash courses on python/javascript - didn't like either :/ Can use them but I'd be looking up documentation all the time

Default avatar.png fvla: what, you don't look up documentation for C++ all the time?

LelouchVC2: Not really

Default avatar.png fvla: i mean, once you get used to python

Default avatar.png fvla: you won't be looking up too much

Default avatar.png fvla: i think

LelouchVC2: I suppose, I'll get to it during the summer I guess :((

LelouchVC2: "i think" ~ Proofs Math Professor

Default avatar.png fvla: don't learn it for the sake of clash, though

Default avatar.png fvla: learn it for the sake of writing useful programs fast

LelouchVC2: Lol, no worries, just good to have a quick and dirty language handy

LelouchVC2: yeee <3

Default avatar.png fvla: pytorch, for instance, which is better than tensorflow

Default avatar.png fvla: and i use python for file processing often

LelouchVC2: Yea, well I'll see how Python goes

LelouchVC2: I wanna do C# when I get the chance *slurp*

Default avatar.png fvla: :thumbsup:

LelouchVC2: I messed around with it for a small program, was nice to use. C++ but easier

LelouchVC2: well im outta here

LelouchVC2: thanks for the talk <3

Default avatar.png fvla: np

KiwiTae: LelouchVC2 c# is like java

BenjaminUrquhart: I mean, yes but actually no

BenjaminUrquhart: that took wayyy too long to send