From CG community
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: eulerschezahl not 1st anymore?

eulerscheZahl: objectively seen i should have never been there

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: May have to do a couple Clash of Code to get there :P

eulerscheZahl: i don't care about the overall leaderboard

eulerscheZahl: only the contest leaderboard matters for me

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Yeah, that's more dynamic and tougher to be top in

eulerscheZahl: royale played a multiplayer, gained 800 points and now he's first. he could have done that earlier, not a matter of skill, just time invested

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Oh, thought that you made an accidental tanking submit

eulerscheZahl: no, others can improve too

eulerscheZahl: and the top is close

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: :)

mark7: What does dynamic sorting want to say. I can't understand the problem statement even.

mark7: if age is same then sort them by name, if name is same sort them by gender and if gender is same sort them by surname? Am i getting it correctly?

eulerscheZahl: yes. depending on the search query of course

mark7: Okay thanks :-)

mark7: Yay weekly problem solved :-)

MSmits: hey eulerscheZahl, did you see what i said about onitama last night?

MSmits: you'll like this

struct: What did you discover?

MSmits: ok so you know how I've been running thousands of CG bench games to fit constants?

struct: yes

MSmits: so I was wondering why I have a winrate of 80% in cg bench and only 60% or so on cg stats

MSmits: less vs karlis o and tric trac

MSmits: turns out, my json file was configured to only ever run seed 0

MSmits: so i got nr 1 overtraining on one seed :P

struct: lol

Illedan: hahaha

MSmits: the same 5 card always

Illedan: I felt that

MSmits: already getting better now, after having started with full random

MSmits: for example I did not have knight-count in my eval because it did nothing for seed 0, but at full random it seems to help a little

eulerscheZahl: that's a great way to use the CG servers :P

MSmits: lol... well it wasn't completely for nothing. Just really silly :P

LelouchVC2: :o

eulerscheZahl: and still you somehow managed to get first

MSmits: yeah, I suppose different cards makes a differents but it's not everything

MSmits: difference

eulerscheZahl: on a coinflip with the other two at the top

MSmits: the other two?

eulerscheZahl: with a similar score to yours on the leaderboard

MSmits: oh, right

eulerscheZahl: i'm glad to see some activity for that game now. was dead before

MSmits: it's one of the best games on CG I think

MSmits: people just dont know it

MSmits: i enjoy it a lot

MSmits: has great depth

MSmits: randomness prevents hard coding

MSmits: and looks good

MadKnight: oh the contest starts in 6 days

struct: Will prizes be announced today?

eulerscheZahl: we don't know

MadKnight: what's the prize, Automaton2000 ?

Automaton2000: am i the only one

MSmits: you're not a prize

MadKnight: Automaton2000 says Automaton2000 is the prize

eulerscheZahl: win an Automaton2000

Automaton2000: so now i can do the same

Automaton2000: what are you doing atm marchete?

eulerscheZahl: where is Marchete?

MadKnight: will magus ship this prize ?

MSmits: no idea, Automaton2000 misses him

Automaton2000: wish there was a problem

MSmits: eh

MSmits: you wish there was a problem with what Automaton2000?

Automaton2000: if i can do it in c#

struct: Have you coded an Yinsh bot yet Automaton2000?

Automaton2000: how to do any of you solved the puzzle of the week?

LelouchVC2: where's that?

struct: puzzle of the week?


Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

MSmits: why are you flipping out Illedan


Illedan: I can't figure out why me damn goalkeeper is hugging that ball

MSmits: it doesnt know whcih way to turn

MSmits: happens in csb

MSmits: depth issue

MSmits: turning in csb takes 10 turns for a full 180

Illedan: no turning here?

Illedan: Charge by angle..

MSmits: hmm

MSmits: this is like meanmax?

Illedan: y

Amirabbas: it would be great if there was a rematch button in the private clashes....i send them this request ...I hope they do that

MSmits: it;s awfully close to the goal

MSmits: floating point issue?

Illedan: maybe

wlesavo: may be if you try to go negative coors it would be easier to grab

wlesavo: it is possible to print out coors beyond the board, dont know if it helps though

Illedan: Yeah, I know

wlesavo: anyway seems to be a rare case

eulerscheZahl: Illedan when you move towards it, you will push it in your own goal?

eulerscheZahl: or at the last the sim thinks it

RoboStac: I think you might just not be able to pick that up with the 8 angles - it's partly over the goal line so you'd have to hit it pretty exactly to cover it before rebounding away

MSmits: smart RoboStac

MSmits: that's it ofc

pb4: What 8 angles ?

MSmits: FB

RoboStac: he's only trying 8 movement angles

wlesavo: he simulates at 8 angles

pb4: oh right

MSmits: Illedan is doing what you told me to do a year ago pb4

pb4: I don't remember what I said :D

MSmits: you told me to use smitsimax on FB

pb4: oh right

MSmits: never got around to that

pb4: Probably a lot of room to improve on FB

MSmits: yeah, it's a messy game

MSmits: pretty hard, complicated sim too

pb4: my thing is still a GA, and it's kind of been shown on other games that there are much better approaches

MSmits: might not be smitsimax though, i had my doubts.

MSmits: but Illedan is doing ok so far

pb4: how ok ?

MSmits: top gold I think?

MSmits: not sure if he beat the boss already

pb4: @Illedan, for your problem, one possibility would be to add a special 9th action

pb4: 9th action would be "pick closest snaffle up" and would have some kind of logic/geometry to go as close as possible to the snaffle while avoiding the wall

MSmits: yeah thats close to what I suggested about scoring

MSmits: have an extra action with heuristics for a well aimed shot

pb4: yup

MSmits: pb4 will you be in next contest as well?

MSmits: I know you are time restricted

pb4: Probably not, I've largely exhausted my wife's patience with ooc ^^

MSmits: thought so, good to see you in it though

MSmits: and grats on the win, not sure if i said that before

pb4: At first I justed wanted to toy with the tracker.... had no intention to go further -_-'

MSmits: haha, but once you get going...

LelouchVC2: At least you have a wife

MSmits: he's not complaining about having a wife lol :P

pb4: I did find interesting that there were different approaches to the game at the top

MSmits: yeah, i saw that in eulers stats

MSmits: hey, i Q-learned an AI for NIM

MSmits: so next up, alpha zero :P

pb4: ha

pb4: ha ha

pb4: ha ha ha

MSmits: this was just for an AI class I am doing

pb4: Table-based ?

MSmits: need the study credits to become CS teacher

MSmits: it's a dictionary with states, so i guess so

pb4: Yup

pb4: Q-learning is well-behaved and proven to converge in its table-based form

MSmits: seems pretty obvious that it would converge

MSmits: i also know a bit more about these convolution nn's

MSmits: but i find it hard to imagine training for an entire CG game

MSmits: so many states during a game and only one reward at the end

pb4: If you really want to try, I suggest starting small on an easy game before trying harder games

MSmits: yeah i know

MSmits: I was thinking of doing it over the summer

MSmits: once my teaching is done

pb4: CSB - runner only - no opponent : that's a very good starting point

MSmits: yeah, problem is i dont like csb that much. I would prefer something like oware, not necessarily oware, but some board game

pb4: You'll need some tooling, but there is some existing that you can reuse

struct: connect 4 should be one of the simplest

pb4: Board games bring two more difficulty compared to CSB :

MSmits: discrete input

MSmits: i know this

MSmits: whats the second?

pb4: It's more binary : a single change will make you win or lose

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: thats ok, i can start on tic tac toe as well

pb4: and you have to express the game as a game with final states

MSmits: not sure how that would work

pb4: in CSB you can just say that there are infinitely many CP to take, and the objective is to pick them as fast as possible

pb4: In nim, at some point you don't propagate gamma*best_next_state_reward.

pb4: At some point you've won and you propagate 1

pb4: or you've lost and you propagate 0

pb4: in infiniate CSB with a runner only, you never win or never lose

pb4: inifinite

pb4: All states have the same status, no need to handle "end-game"

pb4: Also there's inherent variety in CSB due to random CP positionning : it's much easier to guarantee that the neural network will have good exploration

pb4: In NIM or board games, it'll get ugly if you don't explore enough or explore too much

pb4: Not saying it's impossible, far from it

MSmits: is this where the drop out thing helps?

MSmits: at least with overtraining

pb4: Dropout is a type of layer in neural networks, it helps with not overfitting the data fed to the network

MSmits: tensorflow seems to have a lot of easy options for this. Should I use that?

MSmits: yeah

pb4: I'm speaking about not feeding always the same info to the NN :)

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: well you have data, you split that into test and train data

MSmits: and you can vary the train and test data

pb4: If your NN always trys the same first move in the game, you'll always feed the same value

pb4: Let's say you can play 10 different moves at the beginning

MSmits: so, basically yavalath

pb4: Your NN always tries move 0

pb4: Even if you split between test/train, there's only be move 0 in the train data

MSmits: hmm right

pb4: It's not exactly the same, but think about a MCTS with C = 0

MSmits: yeah

Illedan: Might work with an heuristic yeah

pb4: @Illedan, if I may suggest : try to see how high you go without spells

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: @pb4, can you go that high without spells

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Using a simulation?

pb4: It's probably with simpler for smitsimax, and it can go pretty high

pb4: much*

Illedan: I do spells as a heuristic on the side now

Illedan: Didn't add them to the search hyet

tutubalin: We found an issue in Van Eck's sequence puzzle

pb4: #12 without spells

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: If I write a Monte Carlo with no spells, can I get till gold?

pb4: (legend)

Illedan: -.-

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Wow

MSmits: WINWINWIN they dont use monte carlo though

Illedan: pb4, that tells me my eval is very bad at the moment :P

MSmits: monte carlo is almost always weak

tutubalin: It says that sequence starts from A0 and we need to find An, but according to tests, it uses 1-based indeces. So it starts from A1.

pb4: Illedan : hence my suggestion :D

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: MSmits Monte Carlo willl get somewhere right?

pb4: This way you'll know when your eval is not the limiting factor :D

MSmits: sure

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: But you need to simulate collisions right?

Illedan: true :P

MSmits: you need to simulate everything if you want to do it right

pb4: bullet-proof engine ?

Default avatar.png WINWINWIN: Wouldnt collisions be too performance heavy as there are too many entities?

Illedan: I sim everything and can play the full game vs myself without getting an off by 1 error

pb4: :thumbsup:

struct: What depth Illedan_

struct: ?

Illedan: 4

Illedan: 2k playouts

MSmits: in csb i do 7

Illedan: I think I need more sims to go deeper

struct: You prune moves?

Illedan: no

MSmits: 2k is very few indeed

struct: yeah

Illedan: 8k sims

pb4: Don't bother with more playouts though

pb4: depth 4 is perfectly fine

MSmits: it's a very chaotic game

pb4: at least on my GA, depth doesn't really matter

MSmits: more depth could be meaningless

pb4: just need >= 3

MSmits: same with meanmax right?

Illedan: My meanmax bot has depth 2 :P

MSmits: lol

pb4: No idea, didn't try smitsi on meanmax

MSmits: i mean the depth thing

MSmits: it's also a low depth game

pb4: probably yes

Default avatar.png LoGos: Does NN really work on CG? If your code is 20-30 KB then you have space for about 17500 floats to paste. Is it enough or do you somehow compress it?

pb4: We compress it


pb4: for an example

Default avatar.png LoGos: Yeah, but isn't that tool cheating?

struct: only on contests

struct: multiplayer you can do w/e

Default avatar.png LoGos: ...

Default avatar.png LoGos: god I hop eulerscheZahl does not use it in Bandas

Default avatar.png LoGos: hope*

Default avatar.png LoGos: struct, only during active contests or any contests?

eulerscheZahl: i used it for STC in the past but not anymore

eulerscheZahl: at some point CG updated the languages and my submission broke, easier to ensure your bots are still working when you don't submit binaries

eulerscheZahl: and less risk of losing your code

struct: LoGos only during active contest

Default avatar.png LoGos: ok, so you have 10 x more rollouts than me without it. Going back to optimizing my mcts

Default avatar.png LoGos: thanks

Default avatar.png LoGos: I was scared I was optimizing my code for 2 days for nothing :scream:

eulerscheZahl: my bot even uses C#. That tool is for C++

Default avatar.png LoGos: oh, yeah. I forgot

RoboStac: LoGos - my bandas submission is a NN using ~22000 16 bit floats

pb4: AZ ?

RoboStac: yeah

Default avatar.png LoGos: EULERSCHEzAHL, the funny thing is I can't get close to that number even if my simulation takes 0 time (it just returns a 0 or 1) :cry:

Default avatar.png LoGos: is AZ some kind of architecture?

pb4: I should go back to making my AZ work on Oware -_-

pb4: still bugs me that it fails so hard....

RoboStac: based on alphazero (the google mcts+nn hybrid)

Default avatar.png LoGos: thanks

MSmits: LoGos karlis o's bandas bot is not a nn.

MSmits: you dont need a nn to be competitive is all I'm saying

MSmits: at least not in bandas

struct: csb is the exception for now

MSmits: it seems so, but it's not 100% sure

MSmits: the distance between Pen's non-NN bot and anyone elses was enormous. If Pen could be so much better, maybe something else can also. Something that will compete with the NN's as well

struct: He never said what he was did he?

Default avatar.png LoGos: I think I understand his point. He is telling me that while NN sounds powerful that does not mean everyone should use it. Karlis' bot is an example. Yeah? thank you MSmits. I have another question. Do you send your code as binary? I'm just asking because I don't want to waste time optimizing my code while I could use it too

struct: What do you mean optimizing?

Default avatar.png LoGos: make as many simulations as possible per turn

struct: Im not sure that binary will increase your performance marginally

struct: I mean that might only increase it marginally*

Default avatar.png LoGos: I'm going to test it now. Brb

RoboStac: as long as you have the optimisation pragmas sending as a binary barely makes any difference now

RoboStac: at least for c++

pb4: ^

pb4: and in Vindinium's case, it made a large negative difference :/

pb4: Still don't know why

Default avatar.png LoGos: Yeah, you are right. No difference :disappointed:

MSmits: I never used send binary

MSmits: i think you need linux for it too

MSmits: I am on windows

Nerchio: why you can't find many top players in multis? they don't resubmit after challenges end?

MSmits: several reasons

MSmits: some contests dont immediately become a multi

MSmits: well they do now

MSmits: but before they didnt

MSmits: also every contest has a different set of players participating, some always join but many dont

MSmits: and the contests span like 8 years or more

MSmits: not all players have been on CG that long or have been here a long time ago and never came back

MSmits: you wont find my bot in ex-contests of 3 years ago probably

MSmits: with some exceptions

Nerchio: makes sense i guess :p

MSmits: it is a bit hard to define a top player btw. For some players its easy to say, but other players are almost always around 50-100 in rank and then suddenly one contest really clicks with them and they get top 10

MSmits: the games are different and different skills may be required

IAmNoob: hi guys!

AntiSquid: Automaton2000 is a girl

Automaton2000: you can just take a look

AntiSquid: ya have a look

AntiSquid: 2014 first multi MSmits

Nerchio: is there any easy way to ctrl+c the output

IAmNoob: i dont think so

IAmNoob: but what are the width and the height of the screen if "Coders Strike Back"?

Nerchio: idk never played it

Default avatar.png Willem640: 16000x9000 i think

IAmNoob: thx

IAmNoob: i think the height is a little smaller

MSmits: you can go off screen

MSmits: so it doesnt matter

MSmits: not that there is any reason to go off screen ofc

MSmits: but you can

IAmNoob: not in pixels

MSmits: pixels dont matter

IAmNoob: i mean in the measrement

MSmits: positions are doubles

IAmNoob: that they use

MSmits: yes they dont use pixels

MSmits: they use doubles

IAmNoob: i know

IAmNoob: how much is the screen in doubles

MSmits: the viewer is meaningless really, it's just so you can see where your pods are

IAmNoob: i know

MSmits: i dont understand your question IAmNoob

IAmNoob: sry i am unclear

IAmNoob: if i want to give my pod the coordinates of the center

IAmNoob: what should they loock like

MSmits: ohh I see. Not exactly sure, but if you want a "center" you should probably just take the average position of the checkpoints

IAmNoob: and how can i do that

IAmNoob: because at the start i dont know all of the check point

MSmits: add up all the checkpointX and divide by number of checkpoints

MSmits: ahhhh

IAmNoob: yes

IAmNoob: i know how

MSmits: dont overthink it if you're in wood 1

MSmits: or wood 3 i dunno

MSmits: make a simple bot

IAmNoob: i am bronze 2

IAmNoob: so i need:(

MSmits: bronze 2??

IAmNoob: yes

MSmits: dont you mean wood?

IAmNoob: no

MSmits: there is no bronze 2

Default avatar.png Willem640: in debug mode you can hover with your mouse to see coordinates

Default avatar.png Willem640: i think the middle is around 8k 4.5k

IAmNoob: ok but they arent the same every turn

Astrobytes: Woods->Bronze->Silver->Gold->Legend

IAmNoob: yes

IAmNoob: now in bronze

Default avatar.png Willem640: im out here severely overthinking my bot

Default avatar.png Willem640: in wood

MSmits: dont you get all coords in bronze?

IAmNoob: no

RoboStac: no, not till gold

MSmits: wow

MSmits: thats silly

Astrobytes: Yeah...

IAmNoob: :p

IAmNoob: yes

Default avatar.png Willem640: yeah

MSmits: csb really needs some revamping imho. It's the worst tutorial

MSmits: gives the wrong impression about CG

IAmNoob: yes

RoboStac: the tutorial bits fine, it just leaves you in a really awkward place

IAmNoob: yes

MSmits: sorry, i mean the whole progression to gold

Astrobytes: That's putting it lightly :)

IAmNoob: no problem

IAmNoob: its ok

MSmits: should we just give him the "trick" ?

MSmits: then he gets to a league with coords

IAmNoob: no

IAmNoob: dont want

MSmits: good answer

Astrobytes: I don't usually tbh, I find they learn more by doing it the long way

IAmNoob: i'll make it all aabout my own

MSmits: they do

MSmits: I just dont want them to get frustrated with the changing input

Astrobytes: Yeah I know, it's a silly situation

Default avatar.png Willem640: what's the trick?

Default avatar.png Willem640: don't spoil it just a hint

MSmits: it's just a heuristic to prevent oversteering, you can come up with it yourself

Astrobytes: :zipper_mouth:

MSmits: so you dont go in circles around checkpoint

Default avatar.png Willem640: oh that's kinda cool

IAmNoob: no :(

Default avatar.png Willem640: i'm gonna try to write something like that

MSmits: i am not giving the trick

MSmits: IAmNoob

IAmNoob: thx

IAmNoob: i dont need any

MSmits: i just describe a problem that you need to fix

IAmNoob: i'll make all about my self

Astrobytes: But let's just say: Don't multiply your velocity by pi

MSmits: ha no, dont do that

IAmNoob: :)

AntiSquid: i would just start with a different multi really

AntiSquid: most multis are easier

MSmits: some, not most imho

AntiSquid: all grid based ones (except for UTG OOC) are easier

MSmits: if you know how to write a search

Astrobytes: I think I've seen this conversation 3 days in a row on this chat, maybe 4... :)

AntiSquid: even if you don't

Default avatar.png Willem640: i'll give them a try, sounds kinda cool

MSmits: not all of them have easier heuristics

MSmits: try it with oware

AntiSquid: oware isn't actually a grid

MSmits: it's a 2 by 6 grid

AntiSquid: play kutulu Willem640

MSmits: kutulu is cool

IAmNoob: it make my code brocken

IAmNoob: made*

struct: Wondev Woman is good

MSmits: kutulu teaches you simple searches like bfs

IAmNoob: dfs is easier

IAmNoob: and shorter

Astrobytes: ?

MSmits: dfs and bfs are equally hard

AntiSquid: i wouldn't call it grid MSmits , because it's irrelevant how you represent it, you can have a list where you connect the start and the end

MSmits: you're just replacing a stack with a queue

IAmNoob: yes

IAmNoob: but is shorter to type

IAmNoob: the dfs

IAmNoob: in c++

AntiSquid: actually you can't move up and down at any point

IAmNoob: is only 5 lines

MSmits: ok AntiSquid, but that makes it even easier than a grid :)

MSmits: cuz its 1 dimensional

MSmits: it's a 1 dimensional grid :)

MSmits: circles are 1D

AntiSquid: point is gird games are easier .

MSmits: the representation and the sim is easier

AntiSquid: circles are 1 D ? in what universe

MSmits: they are

Nerchio: damnit i started meeting people who do the mine trap on 1st column in crystal rush xD

AntiSquid: no the aren't :/

MSmits: surfaces of spheres are 2D

MSmits: circles have no thickness, its a line with the 2 ends connected

MSmits: lines are 1D

AntiSquid: you can only represent a circle in 2d space, otherwise it's a line

MSmits: actually you can represent all points on a given circle with 1 coordinate

MSmits: so it's 1D

MSmits: it's a 1 dimensional curved space

struct: circle is 1d indeed

Astrobytes: You can only travel in 2 directions

Astrobytes: so it's 1D

Astrobytes: But in the 2D space

AntiSquid: if you fold the piece of paper around the line sure you can get a circle but that's not real 1d

MSmits: mathematically it really is 1D, the conceptual circle that is, not the actual paper one, that's 2D

MSmits: or 3D even

IAmNoob: I am a math student and i am sure the circle is 2D

IAmNoob: but is a vector

IAmNoob: which is 1D

IAmNoob: so the both are correct

AntiSquid: represent everything in a 1 dimensional array, he it's 1D !

Astrobytes: Smits explanation is on point

IAmNoob: point is not

IAmNoob: array of points



Astrobytes: It really doesn't need much explaining

AntiSquid: pointless conversation, point was grid games are easier

MSmits: yes they generally are

MSmits: to simulate that is

Astrobytes: Mostly yes

MSmits: to search, not necessarily. Some are hard to find good heuristics for

MSmits: so then you need something like minimax

AntiSquid: physics games can require googling for trigo formulas so eh ...

MSmits: right, difficult sims

AntiSquid: you don't need that much knowledge for a basica grid .

MSmits: i separate sim and search

MSmits: a sim is not an algorithm

MSmits: well

MSmits: not a search algorithm

Astrobytes: *may contain algorithms

MSmits: right

MSmits: to me the actual writing of a bot is not in the sim, thats just copying the game and it's annoying

MSmits: unless it involves bitboards

Astrobytes: lol MSBits

MSmits: the sim really turns me off from FB, meanmax etc.

MSmits: so i see AntiSquid's point for sure

Astrobytes: Yeah, I'm still putting those off

MSmits: but i see it more as a lot of boring work to do

Astrobytes: It can be tedious

Default avatar.png Willem640: aigth i think i've reproduced the trick

MSmits: thats quick

Astrobytes: Are you now in gold?

Default avatar.png Willem640: just have to wait for the boss to oversteer and i win

Default avatar.png Willem640: no

MSmits: not sure if thats the trick

Astrobytes: It's not the trick then.

Default avatar.png Willem640: oh

Default avatar.png Willem640: hm

MSmits: you have to somehow get your bot to start steering before it gets to the checkpoint

MSmits: like you would in a real race

Astrobytes: Don't wait for any other bot to do something, take charge of your pods

Default avatar.png Willem640: oh

struct: The trick doesnt beat wood 2 boss I think

struct: but beats wood 1 until gold

MSmits: huh

MSmits: i dont see why it wouldnt?

Astrobytes: same

Default avatar.png Willem640: so you do some kind of sick drift?

MSmits: yes, sick drift

MSmits: let's call it the sick drift trick from now on

Astrobytes: Yes, you're getting the idea

struct: no collisions, and wood 2 turns preety well

Astrobytes: CSD

struct: and always same map

Default avatar.png Willem640: haha

Astrobytes: Code Sick Drifts

struct: 1vs1 you wont win vs boss

struct: with trick

Default avatar.png Willem640: i did some kind of blakc magic with vectors before this

MSmits: really... too bad i cant test

IAmNoob: Drifts are a way to go

IAmNoob: i am sure

IAmNoob: but sometimes

Default avatar.png Willem640: so it would aim next to the checkpoint and drift

struct: Ill test give me 3 min

IAmNoob: it gets stuck

MSmits: Willem640 I got to gold with some weird search with vectors

Astrobytes: I did vectors and steering behaviours

Default avatar.png Willem640: haha

Astrobytes: Loads of ways to do it really

Default avatar.png Willem640: i'll have to perfect it some more then

MSmits: i wrote 200 lines, but this trick gets you to gold with 10 lines or so... i thought it was annoying =/

Default avatar.png Willem640: how do you know which way to steer before the checkpoint?

Astrobytes: Yeah. I just feel you miss out if you don't do it the long way, as I said before. Seems a shame to waste the experience

MSmits: you know where the checkpoint is, use that

Astrobytes: ^

MSmits: and correct somehow for what your pod is doing

Default avatar.png Willem640: okay

IAmNoob: is there a silver too?

MSmits: yes

IAmNoob: after those

IAmNoob: ok

IAmNoob: thx

MSmits: bronze silver gold legend

IAmNoob: yes

struct: lol the scores on wood 3

struct: are all negative

struct: even boss

Astrobytes: Woods->Bronze->Silver->Gold->Legend

Astrobytes: oh Smits beat me

IAmNoob: wood 3 i got top1

MSmits: someone do some wreckin' struct?

darkhorse64: Is there a way to know which puzzle you have done per language ?

Astrobytes: probs all broken bots struct

struct: There is a site I think darkhorse64

MSmits: ow hey darkhorse64, I wanted to share something funny with you. i'll pm, already told it on WC twice

darkhorse64: wrong fitting ?

MSmits: oh you read that

darkhorse64: Yeah

MSmits: cool huh, my bot wa awesome at seed 0 :P

darkhorse64: I was definitely surprised that you did not crush the leadderboard

Astrobytes: still funny :)

MSmits: you mean when i shared my cg bench?

darkhorse64: which site struct

MSmits: yeah you were right it was weird

MSmits: but obvious now


struct: As you can see

struct: the trick gets beaten


struct: By wood 2

Astrobytes: lol nice

MSmits: seems to me the trick is not done right?

AntiSquid: UTG has a really terrible referee, who wrote that code? it's even worse than mine

MSmits: steers too late

MSmits: yeah definitely too late

struct: But the code is right

MSmits: what is yours AntiSquid

struct: If I pass wood 2

MSmits: can pm me the code?

struct: Ill get gold with exact same code

MSmits: yeah ok, but the code may still be wrong :)

AntiSquid: which one?

AntiSquid: was saying UTG referee code is worse than what i can write

MSmits: oh i thought you meant a specific contribution of yours

MSmits: i was just wondering which of yours you thought were bad

AntiSquid: @_@

MSmits: btw struct is right the map is bad, his code is perfect :)

MSmits: but the trick is the same, prevent oversteering, just dont do it the way you would in bronze or higher

struct: The trick for wood 2

struct: Is just do what they tell ytou

struct: They give you pseudo algorithm

Astrobytes: aim at the cp

IAmNoob: yes :)

MSmits: ah

some_person_that_dan_doesnt_know: h

ZarthaxX: hai

Astrobytes: Greetings Lord Zarth of aaX

struct: ZarthaxX you join next contest?

ZarthaxX: hello Lordastro

ZarthaxX: i suppose tobo struct

ZarthaxX: but wonthave much time due to uni

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: I suppose there is no way to check your Pod Vector Velocity in a single iteration?

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: I'd like to check if my enemy is ahead of me, and that im prepared to ram him, but calculating my velocity over several turn seems to be such a drag.

Default avatar.png Willem640: how do you get your velocity?

Default avatar.png Willem640: is it silver or gold league data or do you have to keep static variables

jacek: ohai

struct: on gold they give you velocity

Default avatar.png Willem640: I see

struct: and all checkpoints at start

reCurse: Tracking velocity is very easy though

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: Its not hard, just boring.

MadKnight: but it's not as long as tracking all checkpoints

Default avatar.png Pazkw: hello!

Default avatar.png Pazkw: is there a way to export the results?

Default avatar.png LoGos: maybe this will help

MSPK: hey,can u pls share the code

reCurse: No

MSPK: please

Default avatar.png Pazkw: @LoGos thanks!

Default avatar.png Pazkw: however it does not seem to be working

Default avatar.png Pazkw: and I am not willing to go thorugh the code to understand why :grin:

reCurse: It's working

Default avatar.png Pazkw: well I am selecting Coders Strike Back and putting my username

Default avatar.png Pazkw: and I get Error 404. Player not found. Double check your nickname and the selected puzzle

reCurse: Well read the full error

reCurse: "Please note that cgstats can't find your ranking if you are above the first 1000 players."

Default avatar.png Pazkw: am I above the first 1k?

reCurse: Well the translation kinda sucks

reCurse: It means if your rank is below 1k

reCurse: Or above 1k if you consider number

Default avatar.png Pazkw: my rank is well above 1k

reCurse: In other words

reCurse: It only works if you're in the top 1000

Default avatar.png Pazkw: aah

Default avatar.png Pazkw: I understood the exact opposite

Default avatar.png Pazkw: lol

reCurse: Yeah the translation is bad

Default avatar.png Pazkw: thanks for the exlpanation

Default avatar.png Pazkw: still... any other way to export the data? I really don't want to parse the game output

reCurse: What data do you want and why?

Default avatar.png Pazkw: I want position and velocity so that I can build a kinda model to predict the position/velocity of the craft and control it better using some optimal control technique

Default avatar.png Pazkw: it is boring to tune the feedback loop visually

reCurse: Ah I see. cgstats won't help then.

jacek: uncertainty principle tells you cant have both

jacek: deal with it

reCurse: You'll need to parse the data yourself

Default avatar.png Pazkw: :joy:

MoMOElsharief: hello

Default avatar.png Pazkw: I know, but I would like at least one o them!

reCurse: Optimal control is also useless starting in gold league

Default avatar.png Pazkw: how else would you do it?

reCurse: Good enough control

reCurse: The game completely changes in gold league once you get two pods

reCurse: You'll constantly have one enemy pod blocking yours

reCurse: So the "optimal" trajectory will be extremely hard to compute

Default avatar.png Pazkw: cool

Default avatar.png Pazkw: well but first i need to get there

reCurse: That's why I'm saying to focus on what's good enough and not overthink it

reCurse: You definitely don't need to parse data to reach gold

afert: pr

Default avatar.png fvla: one-line python list comprehensions are terrifying

Default avatar.png fvla: i need to relearn perl solely for clash of code code golf mode

AntiSquid: no need to torture yourself

Default avatar.png fvla: the thing is, i did it once for fun

Default avatar.png fvla: i can do it again

Default avatar.png fvla: and make people reading my code suffer in idk

Default avatar.png fvla: i'm a terrible person

Illedan: :pray:

Default avatar.png SilvanKohler: Is it allowed to connect to my pc with tcp and send the data to process on my pc?

reCurse: No

Illedan: Let me know if you are able to do it :D

Default avatar.png SilvanKohler: ok, nvm

mark7: solved Mars Lander Ep. 2 with 100% and all 3 achievements now I could sleep :joy:

Astrobytes: good job mark7

mark7: Astrobytes thanks :-)

ZarthaxX: ah so you copypasted, gj

mark7: what?

Astrobytes: He's not a copypaster ZarthaxX of ZarthaxXia

mark7: Astrobytes what is he talking about?

Astrobytes: mark7 a lot of people copy/paste solutions from github. A LOT.

Astrobytes: But I remember you trying real hard in the contest, so I think you're not a copy/paster

mark7: mark7 no I didnt copy/pasted because if doesnt add any value knowledge to me

mark7: working hard, sharpening brains make you smarter :-)

Astrobytes: It certainly does. So does studying for your exams btw :P

607: охуеть

mark7: Astrobytes :joy:

AntiSquid: aren't schools still closed?

reCurse: Reopening soon here

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: do you even need to use shields to pass Silver in Coders Strike Back?

reCurse: You mean to get into gold or get into silver?

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: into gold

reCurse: You don't need shields

reCurse: But it might help

Default avatar.png EnragedOxygen: Ramming is wonky without knowing enemies velocity. And trying to defend from accidental bumps slowls me down more times than it helps. Am i missing something aka a better raming algoritm?

reCurse: Hmm I forgot the limited inputs

reCurse: Yeah I guess you could totally ignore the shield

AntiSquid: best tutorial for new users

reCurse: What would you suggest

Astrobytes: Perhaps introducing a (skippable of course) tutorial for a couple of other CG multis would work. Then again, it's probably too much work to update the old ones.

AntiSquid: to not recommend the game

reCurse: Great suggestion

reCurse: How about an actual game you think would be better suited?

AntiSquid: even WW would be better

reCurse: lol

Astrobytes: The only problem with CSB being the tutorial game is the change in Gold tbh.

Astrobytes: imo, before I get flamed

MSmits: the problem with csb is that the input is inconsistent and people always come here and ask why their bot doesn't work. Then we have to tell them to reset their code

MSmits: something you dont have to do with any other multi i know

reCurse: I'd say you stop being a new user once you reach gold.

Astrobytes: Depends how you get to gold tho

MSmits: -pi vel?

Astrobytes: just pi * vel, noob :P

MSmits: ow right, for the circles

Astrobytes: ofc

AntiSquid: promoting from silver is full on kick in balls golden experience

Astrobytes: But yeah, a lot of really green users do the MK formula and then just stop

MSmits: they should really be referred to a simple board game

Astrobytes: One size doesn't fit all

AntiSquid: just don't promote csb . simple :D

MSmits: I mean for simplicity. CSB is a dead end in gold

MSmits: for new users

AntiSquid: it has 90k dead accounts or so

AntiSquid: maybe it's not a good idea to promote it

Astrobytes: So there should be a couple of tutorials I think, of varying types of multi

MSmits: yeah

AntiSquid: well you can refer new users to codingame videos

AntiSquid: on youtube channel

reCurse: You keep saying to not promote it but fail at suggesting better

Astrobytes: It won't happen anyway so we're debating pointlessly, but in the Ideal World...

reCurse: WW is not easy at all to start with

AntiSquid: i said even WW would be better, not that it's great

AntiSquid: lol

Default avatar.png Amrhossam: i hate the reverse challenges

MSmits: uttt has the regular uttt board to start with

Astrobytes: *ttt

MSmits: right

MSmits: think its a pretty big jump to the 9x9, but its an ok start

MSmits: tron works ok

Astrobytes: Someone suggested just having a regular TTT for practising

MSmits: yeah

reCurse: You're comparing something that requires search

reCurse: With something that requires intuition

reCurse: CSB is just fine, the leagues are unfortunate but can't be fixed

Astrobytes: Yes, fair point.

MSmits: I know, but that's my point, once you get gold in csb you need to search to get any further.... if you're going to learn how to search, maybe csb is not the best place to start

reCurse: Once you reach the top at any game you'll need to search

reCurse: Your point?

MSmits: my point is, suggest other games that they can learn the skills in more easily

AntiSquid: uhm you need to track shit in csb silver and bronze

reCurse: Yes the leagues are unfortunate

AntiSquid: you can reach silver / bronze just as easy in most multis

reCurse: If your onboarding requires search it's a shitty onboarding

MSmits: yeah dont use search in onboarding

MSmits: use q-learning

AntiSquid: if your onboarding requires more trigo than programming it's a shitty one @_@

reCurse: lol ok

Astrobytes: Perhaps the CG redesign with the learning track thing will help with learning particular algos/techniques

reCurse: Conversation with no purpose

AntiSquid: lol ok back to you

MSmits: yeah thats really what i was trying to get at. The transition from heuristics to search could use some streamlining on CG.

Astrobytes: Hopefully that's considered in the redesign. When it comes. If it comes.

MSmits: yeah

Astrobytes: And that leaderboard better not be indicative of the coming desing

Astrobytes: *design

MSmits: which one

reCurse: Prepare to be mostly disappointed

Astrobytes: The squished up one

MSmits: is it still up?

MSmits: i dont see it

Astrobytes: Yeah reCurse, I'm not optimistic

Astrobytes: It seems to have been reverted (being Friday, always expect CG updates) but it's burned into my mind now

reCurse: Uh? Do I need to refresh

reCurse: Looks like it

reCurse: Yay SPA

MSmits: spa?

reCurse: Single page application

MSmits: o

reCurse: Nothing refreshes for real

reCurse: Until you do

Astrobytes: :D

reCurse: I think it's time to submit csb

Astrobytes: Right, so they've been seeing us moaning. So lets moan more.

reCurse: Next step is to do machine learning to recognize wood bosses and have my personal DDoS tool

reCurse: Don't ruin the fun and ask why

reCurse: (joking in case)

Astrobytes: :D

Astrobytes: I can't see the CSB submit issue being resolved anytime soon

reCurse: I can guarantee doing that during a contest will get the issue addressed asap

Astrobytes: It happened already tho' no? Was it UTG?

reCurse: Yeah sort of

reCurse: Would be 10x worse if deliberate

Astrobytes: Then we need coordinated submits :P

MSmits: They should at least have a button to stop all multiplayer activity in case of short contests

Astrobytes: The multi AZ5

MSmits: ah chernobyl

MSmits: yes

Astrobytes: SCRAM/AZ5 isn't just limited to Chernobyl ;)

Astrobytes: Killswitch, there.

Astrobytes: Big Red Button on Thibaud's desktop.

reCurse: Which creates a JIRA and assigns it to someone to do the killswitch

Astrobytes: And 8 months later the issue appears as resolved in the bug channel on Discord

reCurse: No for emergencies they are quite reactive

reCurse: I just don't think Thibaud has the rights :P

Astrobytes: True. lol, they should give him more power

Astrobytes: Grrr. There's a bug in Tulips and Daisies. When I make changes I lose. Where do I report this.

Astrobytes: It's clearly a conspiracy.

reCurse: Your brain is staging a revolt?

InsightNinja: E

Astrobytes: I just miss our "the site is bugged my code doesn't work" users, so I'm projecting

Astrobytes: That and I fucked up my eval again

InsightNinja: EEE

inoryy: first time it happened over a year ago, somebody boosted like 500 accounts in CSB and leaderboards were halted for almost a day

Astrobytes: Can you not do that please usaykurmoto

Astrobytes: I think I remember that

Astrobytes: how's it going inoryy?

inoryy: aside from going crazy over sitting at home for 2 months? good good :)

reCurse: You and me both

Astrobytes: Tell me about it.

Astrobytes: Grim

inoryy: more or less settled in, finished a mini-project today

inoryy: excited to start the next one on monday

Astrobytes: Nice. Anything interesting?

Astrobytes: *particularly interesting

inoryy: I think so :) But probably won't be public for awhile

AntiSquid: i am feeling fine, just taking a walk whenever it's sunny, shop something, go home, coworkers sound stressed though

Astrobytes: hehe :spy:

AntiSquid: inoryy when is there going to be a reveal about anything ML related from deepmind?

Astrobytes: I've got loads of issues, mostly related to my Grandad, since most social care has evaporated

Astrobytes: When they have finally taken over the world AntiSquid :P (joking)

AntiSquid: how come? what happened to the social care?

AntiSquid: what changed

inoryy: AntiSquid what do you mean? we have publications coming out almost daily, sometimes with detailed blog posts :)

AntiSquid: then i am bad at finding them


AntiSquid: forgot that site

AntiSquid: but is there anything major? like another game playing model ?

Astrobytes: AntiSquid Social services (adult) washed their hands of him at the start of the pandemic. When I was isolating, the only way I could get food to him was via someone I haven't spoken to for 20+ years that lived nearby. Medical-wise, there's no podiatry, no diabetes clinic, no dermatology clinic. All we have is the care workers 4x a day

AntiSquid: you know stuff that doesn't happen all the time

inoryy: these two are quite major:

AntiSquid: so pink background = major, noted

Astrobytes: Nice, the glass one looks very interesting

AntiSquid: yes

reCurse: Personally the development I've been the most impressed by is those imitating extremely complex physics at a fraction of the cost

inoryy: yeah, it significantly outperforms current SOTA and has the potential to be beneficial in many science fields

reCurse: That's just mind boggling to me

inoryy: yeah that's the first link reCurse :)

AntiSquid: don't remember seeing anything about graph neural networks before

AntiSquid: might be old concept but new to me

reCurse: I was thinking of something else

inoryy: oh I think I know which one you mean

inoryy: ?

reCurse: Yeah and there was another with an impressive video with floating capes and stuff

AntiSquid: quick summary for graph netwroks please?

reCurse: Trying to find it...

InsightNinja: :apple:

reCurse: I think it's this one

reCurse: Or some followup

Astrobytes: I'm a fan of the biological/biochemical applications too, protein-folding etc. Revolutionary.

reCurse: Having a fixed compute for complex animation or physics is just insane

inoryy: AntiSquid GNNs approximate graph structure via NN, typically through layers that work well with local spatial connectivity, e.g. convolutions

Astrobytes: You have the link to the video for that reCurse?

reCurse: I just noticed ubisoft contributed to that paper

reCurse: So it's possible I'm referring to stop I actually saw internally lol

reCurse: *stuff

reCurse: oops

inoryy: lol

Astrobytes: hahaha

Astrobytes: Seems rather impressive

reCurse: Makes no sense to me how well it works

AntiSquid: so convolutional NNs are part of GNNs ? i simply don't remember this term nor the visualization for it

reCurse: Astrobytes:

reCurse: Not the best I've seen but it's something

inoryy: conv is one simple approach to do GNNs but the novel results like glassy dynamics use specialized approaches with embeddings on vertex and edge level

AntiSquid: i clicked a link in that article, shows a paper back from 2018 :/

Astrobytes: Impressive

Astrobytes: The GPU/CPU stats... lol

Astrobytes: Very nice

Astrobytes: *usage stats

reCurse: Yeah it's ridiculous

reCurse: When you compare to how much the ground truth costs

Astrobytes: Indeed. Game changer. If you'll pardon the pun

LayLay: ha

BenjaminUrquhart: :eyes: