eulerscheZahl: noooo!
eulerscheZahl: MineDrops = MineDrops.Union(path.MineDrops).ToList();
eulerscheZahl: i don't filter for distinct mines only. so when merging paths the mine list explodes
eulerscheZahl: consequences: worse mine avoidance and timeouts
metahom: hah. i got worse
eulerscheZahl: what did you break?
metahom: on sunday, I realized that I I do not update Torpedo Cooldown after launching it
eulerscheZahl: oh
metahom: so I launch torpedo and then change something else
metahom: I was wondering why I lose close fights for a long time )))
eulerscheZahl: i don't even track the cooldowns but manually replace the CHARGE action if i shoot a torpedo and move after
eulerscheZahl: so at least you found it before the contest ended
metahom: I'm pretty sure I have lot of stupid bugs left
eulerscheZahl: that's like a law
eulerscheZahl: having a buggy contest bot
metahom: yep
metahom: this time it was really hard to detect bugs. a few times I had feeling, that my self-tracking works bad. like enemy knows exactly where I am, while I think I have several possible positions. but didn't have time to check it
eulerscheZahl: the best idea is to test against bots printing their detection
eulerscheZahl: to see if you get the same numbers
metahom: yea, that's a good idea. and I should thought of it before )))
JFB: It looks that in the rank, they are included point for OoC contest but not points from OcC multi. It is no OoC position in Rank/Bot programming" list.
JFB: Is it bug or is it feature ;-) ?
metahom: points are included, but not shown on renking statistics popup
metahom: until submit
metahom: the same with UTG
JFB: So I have to resubmit my bot? OK. Thanks :-)
eulerscheZahl: or tell CG to fix it
JFB: eulerscheZahl - it can be "feature" that way. If sb do not resubmit his/her bot, but use automatically submited by CG, he/she will not have points. It looks fair
eulerscheZahl: no
JFB: why?
eulerscheZahl: because one has a bot for the game
dbdr: points appear to be there on https://chadok.info/codingame/leaderboard_xp.html
dbdr: where are they missing?
eulerscheZahl: and especially if you don't even know that you have to resubmit to get points
eulerscheZahl: on your profile summary dbdr
eulerscheZahl: royale getting closer
metahom: wait wait. points are included imo
eulerscheZahl: they are
dbdr: right, it's not in the list of multis
dbdr: but it's counted in the general leaderboard
eulerscheZahl: but it's in this list at least https://chadok.info/codingame/puzzles_list.html
eulerscheZahl: 25 user ratings, that was fast
eulerscheZahl: crystal rush has less
dbdr: my profile About Me picture applies :)
eulerscheZahl: so you got a lot of sleep?
eulerscheZahl: right, you were still there when i was already there yesterday morning
dbdr: yes, 6:30 is much later than during the contest :D
dbdr: I also went to sleep early
kovi: #2
eulerscheZahl: the next no-sleep-challenge is near
dbdr: yes, that's so close
dbdr: kovi what 2?
eulerscheZahl: pb4 posted his own ranking btw https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/ocean-of-code-alternate-ranking/176074/2
eulerscheZahl: 2nd in multiplayer
kovi: i c auto-submit on multi
dbdr: oh interesting
eulerscheZahl: "And finally comes YoBo, in a league of his own (sorry :sweat_smile:)"
dbdr: I guess it's pb4 who did his alternative ranking in a previous contest too
eulerscheZahl: he used a script he had from BR2K
eulerscheZahl: but modified as this time he has no stats for each vs each
dbdr: this is very interesting
dbdr: but not a ranking
dbdr: unless I'm missing something
eulerscheZahl: it is a ranking
eulerscheZahl: axis order has changed
eulerscheZahl: not the leaderboard order
dbdr: ah ok
eulerscheZahl: you can see "missing crosses" too
eulerscheZahl: e.g. dolmen
eulerscheZahl: he played against top but is bottom. so pb suggests that he's overrated
dbdr: opening the image separately helps :)
dbdr: too small otherwise
reCurse: Ranking for ants
dbdr: so MichaelPu was underrated
dbdr: by CG compared to pb4
kovi: i dont see why that ranking is better. im still not in top3
dbdr: why didn't he give the ranking system?
dbdr: competitive advantage in some way?
reCurse: He sort of made his own
dbdr: ok, but does not explain it
dbdr: I know he says I should PM him :)
eulerscheZahl: kovi you should make a ranking too then
reCurse: Maybe he couldn't be bothered with giving details if no one is interested
dbdr: right
reCurse: Anyway I know the details, it's legit
dbdr: overall it seems pretty consistent
eulerscheZahl: https://pastebin.com/BaxN9r7k
that's the data to start with
dbdr: only a couple of clear differences among 60 people
reCurse: Just not sure how much better it can be with missing matches though
dbdr: and not even dramatic ones. top seems more or less identical
eulerscheZahl: i was surprised by how well these ranking match
reCurse: Well you do get pretty ideal conditions
dbdr: eulerscheZahl you made a lot of stats right? did you PM about it? I did not read the forum yet
reCurse: And trueskill isn't complete garbage either
reCurse: When everyone plays against everyone around their ranks it helps a lot
kovi: the interesting thing is what i conclude...that results (or multi state) with low number of games will never be good
dbdr: :O
reCurse: Rather than the submit orgy usually seen everywhere else
eulerscheZahl: i shared a huge table dbdr
dbdr: yes
dbdr: OK, ill ccheck
eulerscheZahl: https://forum.codingame.com/t/ocean-of-code-feedback-strategies/175885/8?u=eulerschezahl
dbdr: I made things like this:
dbdr: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/535dcce3-d86f-46d3-97ba-8d78f41700a3
reCurse: So
reCurse: It's a nice table
reCurse: But did anyone gather any useful information from it
reCurse: :popcorn:
dbdr: mine reCurse?
reCurse: Either
eulerscheZahl: i learned that i took too much damage from mines
eulerscheZahl: so i included a surface sometimes
dbdr: it was not very hard to do. python is indeed nice for quick prototype, even though I barely used it before
dbdr: and it was somewhat useful, yes
kovi: i did from eulers
kovi: silence patterns
eulerscheZahl: and interesting to see that not all top players use the same strategy. there are differences in behaviour (silence vs mines for instance)
dbdr: this is a summary, I have more detailed stats too
dbdr: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/f82fcea2-988c-4bcf-b9a4-d6200343081d
reCurse: I'm just too lazy to read more into it and I didn't actually participate in the meta
reCurse: So it's an opaque wall of pie charts to me
reCurse: Much like most accounting presentations
dbdr: and: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/cd9f8fe0-5c44-4711-8568-87df47b9e585
dbdr: this was useful for me to see combinations that I do less or more (or not at all) compared to others
reCurse: Interesting or useful?
dbdr: starting point to think if they are clever or bad
dbdr: both
reCurse: As in did you actually use that data to improve your ai significantly
dbdr: partly it was restful compared to the bot programming
dbdr: I did use it
reCurse: Ok
reCurse: Cool
eulerscheZahl: hard to tell if it was significant. but i improved too
kovi: i just wonder why im in the multi at all?
reCurse: New system
dbdr: could I have found out the same insights in a different way? probably
reCurse: They just copy/paste contest in multi now
reCurse: Enjoy
kovi: i c
eulerscheZahl: pie charts might have been overkill :P
dbdr: google sheets?
reCurse: It's not overkill if you're looking for a promotion to excel dictator
kovi: weird setup though. only 45 game and 80% vs. just 2 players
eulerscheZahl: i hate Excel
dbdr: eulerscheZahl wow, you generated HTML :)
reCurse: Like a true 90s boy
dbdr: did you share that during the contest?
dbdr: I saw a few individual pies only
eulerscheZahl: small teasers, no full stat
dbdr: right
dbdr: even with avatars. definitely went overoard, I like it :D
kovi: i like those kind of things, like mlombs stats for halite3
dbdr: almost every player has crashes :D
eulerscheZahl: all but 2
dbdr: except joelthelion
reCurse: That font though...
eulerscheZahl: default font, didn't change it
reCurse: Yeah
reCurse: -1
eulerscheZahl: it's on github, make a PR
dbdr: eulerscheZahl goes overboard with generating nice stats
recurse: the font could be nicer though
- D
reCurse: Well I'm a roi guy
reCurse: It takes 5 seconds to make it look 10x nicer
eulerscheZahl: 4
eulerscheZahl: 3
eulerscheZahl: 2
eulerscheZahl: Wow, you're sending too many messages. Please, don't spam the chat.
reCurse: Sheesh euler
reCurse: Didn't know you were the spammer type
eulerscheZahl: :(
dbdr: eulerscheZahl how many matches did you analyze?
dbdr: 45322
dbdr: sorry
dbdr: I should read first
reCurse: Sheesh dbdr
reCurse: Didn't know you were the illiterate type
kovi: ok, i definitely blame illedan and swagboy
reCurse: I will always agree on that for illedan
reCurse: That damn floating island
kovi: illedan fell down too early and badly
dbdr: eulerscheZahl I have "other" charge, not invalid
dbdr: any idea what that is?
eulerscheZahl: that's google charts
eulerscheZahl: combining [invalid] to other as it's such a large group
eulerscheZahl: (many items, small in size)
dbdr: small you mean?
reCurse: How many items can there be
eulerscheZahl: i didn't read the docs
reCurse: And who does
eulerscheZahl: i also noticed that you should open the table in fullscreen to see the legend
eulerscheZahl: and then reload
reCurse: Mobile users screaming in the background
dbdr: interesting how different pb4 and jolindien look
eulerscheZahl: pb with more mines and less torpedoes
eulerscheZahl: and games last much longer
reCurse: I really think mines should explode with torpedoes
dbdr: yes
dbdr: especially as they played a lot of games together
reCurse: I only have a cursory understanding of physics but that seems legit
dbdr: so game length difference is even bigger in theory
eulerscheZahl: in RAIC you could explode mines by shooting them
reCurse: Wait RAIC
reCurse: That was a RAIC competition?
eulerscheZahl: so players got as close as possible to the opponent and made a kamikaze move
eulerscheZahl: the meta completely sucked
eulerscheZahl: i'm off now, time for work
reCurse: How would that even work
eulerscheZahl: home office
eulerscheZahl: oh, the RAIC
eulerscheZahl: you got points for dealing damage to the opponent
reCurse: Oh you mean the platformer game
eulerscheZahl: but no negative point sfor harming yourself
pb4: Hi
reCurse: I don't think it's quite comparable to this game
eulerscheZahl: it isn't
EdReynolds: Gah. Boss 4 is killing me >.<
dbdr: hi pb4!
how did you calculate your ranking?
reCurse: I think it would have been interesting to damage the enemy with his own mines
reCurse: Teach him to be so passive and boring
pb4: I have the conversation since 7h29, not before... seemed interesting
pb4: anybody could copy/paste ?
dbdr: pb4 I have the logs, will publish it
eulerscheZahl: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/0353dca4-070c-4cd8-8ecc-6b7293aa1d39
reCurse: It's 1:46 am here so you're from the future
pb4: as for timeouts, I should be counted in the "non-timeout bots"
reCurse: You tell me
dbdr: ok, eulerscheZahl did the job
eulerscheZahl: starting with ceg not tracking torpedo shootings as he didn't know that the location was given on the input
pb4: my timeouts are when I have nowhere to go, 1 left left, and no mine to trigger to make a "dummy" action
pb4: so... would lose anyway
pb4: didn't bother to ouptut something valid :)
dbdr: I thought it's better not to timeout then
dbdr: easier to spot real bugs
reCurse: SURFACE? :P
pb4: KILLSELF
pb4: :)
eulerscheZahl: try { action() }
catch(..) SURFACE
dbdr: RESPAWN
dbdr: what was the BttC command?
pb4: dbdr : that feature was added maybe 24 hours before the end
eulerscheZahl: respawn, why didn't we think of that?
pb4: I had already debugged everything I would debug from the bot
dbdr: what feature?
pb4: the infinite trigger if I can't do anything else
dbdr: right. but you never know
dbdr: ah ok
pb4: so it wasn't really a matter if bugs were mixed up in those timeouts
pb4: I wasn't going to correct them anyway
kovi: i even added last shoot in the dark
pb4: thanks eulerscheZahl :)
dbdr: kovi lol
dbdr: I thought about it
eulerscheZahl: oh, some of the crashes i linked are already offline again :(
dbdr: did you ever see it working kovi?
kovi: and ofc at last turn 2nd player a provisional fatality attack
pb4: dbdr : give a score X_i to each player
kovi: last shoot....0 chance of succedd
pb4: assume the matchup between two players should end up in X_i / (X_i + X_j) winrate
dbdr: not 0
kovi: 298 turn 2nd player....rare
dbdr: ah, last turn of the game
pb4: optimize for all X_i so that the expected winrates matches the observed winrates as close as possible
dbdr: I thought before dying from surface
dbdr: right, that's the general principle
reCurse: Gradient descent?
dbdr: I think others use sth else than xi / xi + xj
pb4: reCurse : the tool for optimization ?
reCurse: Yeah
dbdr: something more gaussian
pb4: scipy.optimize with Newton-CG solver
kovi: dbdr - not when dieing from surface: because that means you cant move, so you cant use finisher combos
dbdr: 1 vs 99 does not have a 1% change of win, but rather 0.001%
dbdr: I think
reCurse: His X_i is not like elo or trueskill
reCurse: I made the same mistake
reCurse: You'd need to log them to get something equivalent
dbdr: ah, makes sense
dbdr: they will grow much more
dbdr: right, intuitively seems like you can model the same distribution of strengths
dbdr: this kind of system is robust to match order, it's irrelevant
dbdr: definitely superior for ranking
dbdr: given a set of matches
reCurse: It has the disadvantage of not really being online and super expensive
dbdr: right
reCurse: Also I don't know how much weight we can give to winrates
dbdr: different tradeoff
reCurse: With such low numbers
reCurse: But still
pb4: reCurse : that would be an interesting question
reCurse: You'd need to incorporate variance somehow
reCurse: Don't ask me how
dbdr: TS for online + this afterwards gives sth better than TS, I think
reCurse: You're just reinforcing bias
pb4: use the X_i to generate new data with the as many replays, re-apply the calculation and check whether the ranking has changed a lot
dbdr: how?
pb4: do that a lot, and evaluate variance
kovi: but will it be stable?
pb4: btw, I had do this exact analysis for TS + rerun procedure :o)
pb4: kovi : just don't update the underlying X_i from one run to the other
reCurse: I think the optimizer would need the variance from the number of matches
pb4: use the X_i calculated from the first run to generate many different random runs from the same underlying distribution
dbdr: yeah, don't learn from made up data :D
reCurse: And change the weight on that error accordingly
reCurse: Like it should care less about matching something expected if it has 10x less matches
pb4: dbdr : why can't you learn something on the method ?
reCurse: If you can put weight on each error that might be a better way to do it
dbdr: I mean if you generate fake results to measure variance
reCurse: Less expensive too
pb4: https://forum.codingame.com/t/propositions-to-replace-bo5-final-contest-rerun/2851/8?u=pb4
dbdr: ah, that's the one I remembered :)
reCurse: Hmm actually
reCurse: I wonder if the big upsets from your method
reCurse: Are coming directly from lower quality winrate due to lower sampling
reCurse: They're all assumed to be equal right now?
reCurse: Past a threshold?
pb4: nope
pb4: Is your question when looking for the biggest upsets or during optimization ?
reCurse: Optimization
pb4: In any case, the answer is no :o)
reCurse: How do you feed it the winrate quality
dbdr: well, during optimization each match can contribute as much to the MSE, right?
pb4: let N_1_2 be the number of wins of player 1 against player 2
pb4: I want to maximize the function :
dbdr: so if there are few matches between two players, the optimization will not try that hard to explain the results. seems to be low sampling will not create artifacts
pb4: (X1 / (X1 + X2))**N_1_2 * (X2 / (X1 + X2))**N_2_1
reCurse: Ah that's an interesting detail
pb4: this is if there are only 2 players, but you can just multiply for all pairs of players
dbdr: it tries to minimize error on all matches, not on all pairs of players
reCurse: Well it's minimizing on pairs there
pb4: Yes
dbdr: where?
reCurse: X1 and X2
reCurse: That's a pair not a match
pb4: reCurse it can be rewritten by match
dbdr: oh, that looks wrong to me
dbdr: by match would be better I think
pb4: ok
pb4: let's write it by match
reCurse: I don't see why
reCurse: It's better
pb4: there are two matches
pb4: a win from i on j
dbdr: for the reason you gave reCurse :D
pb4: and win from k on l
reCurse: That's why you apply a weighting to it
reCurse: Like he does
dbdr: if you have only one match against two players, doing by player will give it a lot of weight
reCurse: Don't quite grasp the effect yet though
dbdr: adding noise
pb4: (Xi / (Xi+Xj)) * (Xk / (Xk+Xl))
dbdr: minimizing by match sounds more stable to me
pb4: must be maximized over Xijkl
pb4: right ?
dbdr: but might have other artifacts, hm
pb4: The formula is extended if you have more matches, just multiply by the X / X+X value for each individual match
reCurse: Wouldn't that be much more computation heavy
dbdr: I think we need to write a simulation :D
pb4: If player i won N_ij games against player j
pb4: you'll have N_ij times the same term in the formula
dbdr: generate player strenghts, sample results, then check how well different methods find the real player strengths
pb4: so that's :
pb4: (Xi / (Xi +Xj) )**N_ij
dbdr: use TS to generate matches for added relevance
reCurse: Generating player strength is the perfect way to waste your time
dbdr: ?
dbdr: rand
reCurse: The real problem is dealing with noise and intransitivity
dbdr: this is just a way to validate your system
dbdr: you create noise by sampling
dbdr: and verify how your system is able to cancel it
reCurse: It's too artificial
reCurse: I like your explanation for the power term pb4
reCurse: Makes sense I think
dbdr: better than trying to argue which method is better in the abstract
reCurse: Is it though
reCurse: Because almost all ranking systems I've seen fall apart when it comes to real world implementation
dbdr: "validation is useful"
reCurse: They all have nice proofs and perform well in artificial settings though
dbdr: they have proofs with clear objective and conditions
dbdr: if the conditions don't apply, indeed they will fail
dbdr: :)
dbdr: e.g. use TS for offline ranking
dbdr: obviosuly suboptimal
reCurse: It's not though
dbdr: TS is optimal now?
reCurse: If you give it enough data and uniform sampling yeah it's gonna be pretty close
dbdr: it will give more weight to the last match than the first
dbdr: for no good reason
reCurse: That's not entirely true
reCurse: Mostly wrong even
dbdr: explain
reCurse: The last match actually influences a lot less than the first
reCurse: The only way it eventually may matter more is because of the dynamics factor added
reCurse: But with tau = 0 it's actually stable
dbdr: sure, but do they use tau = 0?
reCurse: Who the hell knows
dbdr: :D
reCurse: I'm talking about real ts
reCurse: Don't care about CG since I don't know what they're doing
dbdr: real TS has parameters
reCurse: With tau = 0 it's actually very stable
dbdr: so yes, need to specify which ones you use
reCurse: That's what the parameter is for
dbdr: right. I still think other methods are better for offline ranking
reCurse: Except you're still going to be biased by matchmaking
reCurse: And you won't have the resources necessary to compute your offline ranking every time you matchmake
dbdr: right, that's the tradeoff
reCurse: So if you're biased by that
reCurse: It's debatable whether you correct that bias with offline method
dbdr: could be used for the recalc for instance
dbdr: baically, take the recalc that TS did and minimize the error on that
dbdr: should be better by construction
reCurse: But it's basing itself off the very same data
reCurse: That's what I'm trying to explain
dbdr: yes, making better use of the same data
dbdr: I know, generating the best data is another problem
reCurse: For all you know you're not correcting the error of TS
reCurse: But the error of CG
reCurse: I think it's much more likely actually
dbdr: CG = TS with some specific parameters and a certain matchmaking
dbdr: do we agreee on that?
reCurse: No
dbdr: how does it differ?
reCurse: Because you'll use that equivalent to argue about TS
reCurse: When you're actually arguing about CG's
reCurse: I'm arguing that a proper usage of TS would have corrected the same error
dbdr: that's not a valid argument
dbdr: it's not true because if it is A will happen :)
reCurse: A?
dbdr: whatever
dbdr: I mean the reasoning
dbdr: why is it not true? what else does CG do?
dbdr: apart apply TS with certain parameters and matchmake?
reCurse: It is impossible to evaluate without access to their implementation
dbdr: right
reCurse: So it's a waste of time trying to use CG as a fair representation of TS
dbdr: so I'm saying I suppose this is what CG does, and it's based on what we know
reCurse: And if it's configured incorrectly
dbdr: I don't plan to do that
reCurse: Then we're still wasting our time
reCurse: If they left tau > 0
reCurse: That's not a fair representation of TS
reCurse: You're blaming it for something its parameter is meant to do
reCurse: That's literally what it's there for, to give more weight to recent performance
reCurse: Assuming humans can change skill over time
dbdr: the thing is tau might be useful if the meta changes, no?
reCurse: Which doesn't apply for static bots
reCurse: We're talking about rerun
reCurse: Nothing changes anymore
dbdr: I think even with tau = 0, match order matters
reCurse: No it doesnt
dbdr: because TS is online
reCurse: The only exception is it matters for matchmaking
reCurse: But with same data it won't matter
dbdr: it looks at the first match without looking at any other
dbdr: then never looks at it again
reCurse: That's not how it works :/
dbdr: no? I might be wrong then :)
reCurse: It's cumulating data to zero in on a guess
dbdr: but then how is it online?
dbdr: accumulating is not the same as keeping the whole data
dbdr: it's keeping an abstraction of it
reCurse: With enough data
reCurse: And with uniform sampling
reCurse: Match order ceases to matter significantly
reCurse: And with tau = 0
dbdr: that's handwaving :)
reCurse: Alright I'm done
dbdr: yes, it can get close
reCurse: Off to bed, night :)
dbdr: possibly
dbdr: gn :)
thibpat: I'm live doing a debriefing on my Ocean of Code experience https://twitch.tv/thibpat
tekki: nice thib
tekki: i'm coming
Oioi: Hi all ! Did someone here finish "Cross the line" challenge ?
MadKnight: what is the problem Oioi ?
MadKnight: maybe u can't pass one of validators ?
Oioi: Well, I'm stuck on that challenge :-)
MadKnight: what exactly is the problem ?
Oioi: And either It is a really hard work, or I miss something simple
MadKnight: why are u stuck ?
Oioi: I've got the connected components
Oioi: Now I must do the job for each of them
MadKnight: is it under easy/medium ?
Oioi: Easy/medium ?
MadKnight: each puzzle got difficulty level
Oioi: where do I know the difficulty level ?
MadKnight: > Difficulty : Very Hard
Oioi: Challenge name is "Cross the lines"
MadKnight: for
Cross the lines
Oioi: Ok :-)
MadKnight: https://www.codingame.com/training/expert/cross-the-lines
MadKnight: it's written in here
MadKnight: so it's not easy Oioi
MadKnight: u gotta be ready for it to get hard
Oioi: Yes, ok for that.
MadKnight: the author's solution is 400+ lines long
Oioi: Ok, thanks, that's a good hint
MadKnight: in python
MadKnight: he also got class Segment which takes 150 lines
Oioi: Yeah, he probably get the faces in each connected component, I wasn't sure I had to get them
Oioi: Thanks a lot for your help
wlesavo: wow contest almost doubled my cp
Imsure1200q: How do you save code in challenges? I can't remember.
Uljahn: by clicking the play button
Uljahn: or submit to be sure, so your code appears on the history tab
DiL: hi, does anyone knows if it's possible to keep chat minimized while writing code?
Re9iNee: it has a minimize button
Re9iNee: the buttom left button
Re9iNee: Hi, im still working on Ocean Of Code, will it be available again?
Re9iNee: or am i just wasting my time?
wlesavo:
Re9iNee already is
wlesavo: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/ocean-of-code
DiL: ok got it thanks but I have to minimize it every time, I guess it's not possible to automatically hide chat when starting a clash
Re9iNee: oh, thanks
CacheCoherence: how do i not allow cursor to move in clash of code during compiling(when getting an error)?
DiL: CacheCoherenct no idea, I also have an issue with this UI since somtimes focus moves to chat while I'm writing code :confused:
Re9iNee: i didnt encounter this problem
Re9iNee: but just crossed my mind that can you write an event for it?
Re9iNee: event.preventDefault()
RoboStac: you can bookmark https://www.codingame.com/home?disableChat=True to have a link that doesn't show chat
DiL: RoboStac :thumbsup: thanks man
CacheCoherence: I keep the chat closed. But when im running a test case, the cursor goes to the error point (if there is any)
CacheCoherence: Thats annoying
tutubalin: Guys, probably i found a bug
https://imgur.com/a/FjUrHMi
Nerchio: whats the bug :p
wlesavo: Nerchio no score
WINWINWIN: Guys, if anyone has encountered this error in python3, please advise
WINWINWIN: I am starting a GA in CSB and I am using a move object to hold move details
WINWINWIN: When I try move.angle, I get the error "Nonetype does not have attribute angle"
WINWINWIN: but on printing, the error happens and the angle gets printed
WINWINWIN: I attempted a hasattr function which also yields true
Uljahn: i doubt anyone can debug your code besides you
WINWINWIN: :(
Uljahn: do you try move.angle as a method?
Uljahn: it's hard to guess without a code snippet
RoboStac: the errors saying that move is None so it doesn't have any attributes - are you sure it exists when you try to use it?
WINWINWIN: move.angle is simply an attribute
WINWINWIN: can I share a code snippet?
WINWINWIN: https://pastebin.com/YTtD68rD
IAmNoob: hi!
IAmNoob: hi!
abhay_RAJ: print()
shatts_: has anyone done the music scores one?
tutubalin: WINWINWIN movement parameter is None
tutubalin: o, wait
tutubalin: move is method
tutubalin: of course there's no angle attribute
tutubalin: i assume you've got into name conflict: you use 'move' both for method and variable
struct: Snef online?
LordZedd: konichuva
AntiSquid: get an anime avatar!
Astrobytes: hahaha
AntiSquid: actually i am trying out some korean extra spicy noodle soup and it's a bit too much even for me ...
AntiSquid: Astrobytes
Astrobytes: ah nice, that sounds like my kinda noodle soup
AntiSquid: it makes me cough too :/
Astrobytes: Keep eating it, it'll build up your chilli tolerance
AntiSquid: i have high tollerance, but this is above the usual
AntiSquid: have you tried the iceland extra firey chilli pizza? i could only taste the chillies on it althout it has chicken pieces too
AntiSquid: altough *
Astrobytes: Which soup is it? Well, that counts me out of eating that pizza lol
AntiSquid: well it says ramen, i call it soup because i diluted it a lot :
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B06XDSHBJM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Astrobytes: Nice! It does say "Extremely hot and spicy" ;)
Astrobytes: Suitable for vegetarians too, might have to try these at some point
AntiSquid: will use just half the sachet next time
Astrobytes: You never can tell until you've tried 'em, half the time "extremely hot" means it tingles your tongue, it's a pleasant surprise when you get the real deal
AntiSquid: that's why i cook my own food
AntiSquid: usually
Astrobytes: Same. But I like to keep snacks handy since I don't do takeaway stuff
AntiSquid: i used to order from cheap asian shops
AntiSquid: but quality went down after a while
arnau: Jack Silver - The Casino I PAY WELL FOR THE SOLUTION Xd
AntiSquid: is that a movie reference?
Uljahn: just buy 29+ lvl account xD
arnau: no no it os a program
arnau: *is
AntiSquid: arnau i can sell you level 30+ account, so don't buy from Uljahn
Uljahn: :rage:
AntiSquid: i also ask half of whatever Uljahn is asking
eulerscheZahl: i can sell links to build your own lvl29+ account
Nerchio: floyd warshal broke my mind :(
arnau: i only want the slution xD
Astrobytes: Just go to codingamesolutions.com and fill out the 12 surveys plus your credit card details and I'll send the solution
WINWINWIN: Or u could sell you lvl 50+ acc euler xD
eulerscheZahl: did you read some post mortems for GitC?
Nerchio: no
Nerchio: i will do it later
eulerscheZahl: because we discuss flody warshall there too
Nerchio: but i just realised that path through some nodes is faster than direct so to speak
AntiSquid: WTB cheap level 51+ account, PM me, no trolls please, thanks
AntiSquid: (WTB = want to buy, rpg lingo)
Nerchio: i just copied java floyd warshal and will try to understand it after i make it work
Nerchio: im close ;p
Nerchio: but took a long time
eulerscheZahl: 4 lines, not much to understand
Uljahn: from scipy.sparse.csgraph import floyd_warshall :relieved:
eulerscheZahl: if path from a via b to c is shorter than a to c directly, update it
Nerchio: yeah sounds easy but i will have to look at it step by step :p
Nerchio: and i needed to do some data transformations
Nerchio: because it works on arrays and i had a list
eulerscheZahl: and no operator overloading
eulerscheZahl: have fun with list.get(index)
Nerchio: hehe yea :)
AntiSquid: why java
Nerchio: i have 3 hashmaps already
Nerchio: for nodes lol
AntiSquid: you said they teach you c and ocaml
Nerchio: direct connections
AntiSquid: you can have nodes in any language
Nerchio: shortest path to each node from this one
eulerscheZahl: even in node.js?
AntiSquid: even in js
Nerchio: im not touching C in anything outside of school
AntiSquid: why
Astrobytes: Why?
AntiSquid: wow
Nerchio: i dont like pointers
Neon_Tuts: Hello World
AntiSquid: how is java not worse than C ?
Nerchio: i like understandable more than magic
eulerscheZahl: C is the opposite from magic
Astrobytes: If you take the time to understand C it's more understandable than Java
eulerscheZahl: when you want to make a fire in java, you can take the lighter or the flame thrower
eulerscheZahl: in C you have to take flintstones
Astrobytes: Well, you need to create your own flintstone structures first ;)
eulerscheZahl: i always hated strings in C
Nerchio: yeah thats annoying
Nerchio: strings in C xD
Astrobytes: Not great fun, admittedly
AntiSquid: wow i actually managed to eat all that
Astrobytes: Well done!
AntiSquid: runy nose
AntiSquid: anyone knows the top algorithms for bandas?
Astrobytes: Last I knew it was MCTS or alphabeta
RoboStac: alphazero works well too
Astrobytes: Oh you have that on bandas too? Didn't know that
AntiSquid: hah thanks was wonder about that
AntiSquid: what do you use? 64 inputs each round?
RoboStac: 192 inputs (64 for me /them / board)
RoboStac: with the board always being shifted so the gaps are on the right / bottom
AntiSquid: why is it necessary to split it up this way? why 64 for the board?
RoboStac: it needs to know which squares are empty vs which squares are removed
cegprakash: my torpedo is giving away my position to enemy quickly
cegprakash: how do I avoid that in SIlver league
ZarthaxX: what i told you :)
cegprakash: yes
AntiSquid: fire less torpedoes, use more mines?
cegprakash: I just added that myself
cegprakash: AntiSquid oh
cegprakash: when should I decide not to fire torpedo? my eval automatically shoots blind spots
ZarthaxX: shoot when it's really worth
cegprakash: because I decrease enemy life for random shooting in his possibility
AntiSquid: hey read my PM ! ceg :p
ZarthaxX: like hitting the 70% of possible spots
cegprakash: oh
AntiSquid: it's free of charge on first 10 views
cegprakash: I can try this 70% thingy
cegprakash: what is free of charge
cegprakash: oh
cegprakash: I'll read urs
ZarthaxX: also u should check if after you shoot you reveal yourself too much and chain that action with a silence
ZarthaxX: just to dont give opp advantage to shoot you for 2 hp
cegprakash: Yeah I plan to track myself for that
cegprakash: but not very soon
cegprakash: I self tracking needed in Silver?
cegprakash: I thought I can reach Gold without self tracking
wlesavo: the earlier you implement it less pain you will have later i guess
cegprakash: I have this bug where enemy does self damage to himself
cegprakash: and I shoot on the same turn
cegprakash: I think he is near me
cegprakash: and he got damaged because of me
MSmits: create a damage map
MSmits: record all damage and the cells it was dealt to
MSmits: all the cells that have the same damage as the opponent life lost, are places he can be at
MSmits: do all forms of damage though
cegprakash: oh no I can't even think of mine damage tracking with my current code
Swagboy: He don't forget that he may surface ;)
cegprakash: I'm only focusing short term goals of reaching gold
cegprakash: without mines
MSmits: you dont need to track mines for this though
MSmits: you know where a mine blew up just from reading opponent orders
MSmits: thats without tracking any mines
cegprakash: Swagboy I track surface already
cegprakash: tracking surface is ez
eulerscheZahl: surface makes it impossible to remove some paths resulting on the same cell to reduce possible mine locations
Swagboy: I mean in the damage map
LUKAKU27: someone have Don't Panic -1 in c#?
Swagboy: Don't mix his surface and your torpedo touching
AntiSquid: -1 ?
eulerscheZahl: episode 1
eulerscheZahl: AntiSquid has it
AntiSquid: he clearly said negative 1
LUKAKU27: eoisode 1*
LUKAKU27: episode*
MSmits: eulerscheZahl
eulerscheZahl: MSmits
MSmits: with onitama, is the input for the middle card given for player 0 or 1
MSmits: the orientation
eulerscheZahl: for the player playing it next
eulerscheZahl: that means for you
MSmits: but i cant play it nexrt
MSmits: its in the middle
eulerscheZahl: you are the next player to hold it
MSmits: oh ok
MSmits: k got it thanks
MSmits: this orientation stuff is really the hardest bit to simulate
eulerscheZahl: and every card is given the way as the next player will use it
eulerscheZahl: it was a pain to design
MSmits: yeah it's no criticism btw, you did it fine, it's just not easy to simulate
eulerscheZahl: i confused myself multiple times and even swapped x and y at some point
eulerscheZahl: i didn't understand it as critisism
eulerscheZahl: just casual chatting
MSmits: kk
MSmits: doesnt help that I am trying to cram the whole gamestate in 1 64 bit int :P
MSmits: believe it or not, you can do that
MSmits: this game actually has very few gamestates, worst case it's 1000 billion or so
MSmits: makes every game solvable, just not in 1000 ms
eulerscheZahl: you have to distinguish between 8 players+2masters of different teams
and 5 cards
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: and yet it is possible
MSmits: 25 bit for each series of positions
MSmits: total 50 bit
MSmits: 3 bit to identify which of the 5 bits on your side is a master
MSmits: total 56 bit
MSmits: 1 bit for whose turn it is
MSmits: 57 bit
MSmits: then 5 bit for the cardstates
MSmits: there are 30 cardstates, so fits in 5 bit
MSmits: 2 left
eulerscheZahl: but does it allow fast access to what you need?
eulerscheZahl: what's the point in tiny board state but slow access?
MSmits: pretty fast, but I am not sure if the penalty is worth it. I need to pext/pdep for masters is all
MSmits: the thing is
MSmits: because this game has so few gamestates, transpositions may be worth it
MSmits: transpositions require hashing
MSmits: 64 bit hash key is a miracle for that
eulerscheZahl: and you already have that with such small states
MSmits: yeah
eulerscheZahl: no need for collision checks
eulerscheZahl: but still sounds crazy to me
MSmits: exactly, but again, this might be premature again. Not the first time I made that mistake
MSmits: maybe transpositions are worthless
MSmits: do you see many repeated states?
eulerscheZahl: and you'll never learn from it
MSmits: :)
eulerscheZahl: bitboards are part of the fun for you
MSmits: yeah
eulerscheZahl: i don't even know how many repetitions i see
eulerscheZahl: then again my depth isn't that high
eulerscheZahl: check karlis o, he prints the depth
MSmits: it just seems like with such a small board and identical pieces, you would see some
ZarthaxX: no need for collision check?
ZarthaxX: hash can still collide :thinking:
MSmits: no, because the 64 bit key is unique
MSmits: unless it collides with itself?
MSmits: not sure what happens under the hood
ZarthaxX: are u using a fixed array hash tabkle
ZarthaxX: or like std
MSmits: no the game state is just a 64 bit int, the full state
eulerscheZahl: you missed half of the chat and jumped in right now, didn't you?
ZarthaxX: im reading
ZarthaxX: lol
MSmits: in oware i also have the full state in 1 64 bit int
ZarthaxX: half right toad
MSmits: but i dont use transpositions there
ZarthaxX: thought u meant collision check in a hash table
MSmits: nah, the idea is to use unordered map
ZarthaxX: ah...
ZarthaxX: do u always use that?
MSmits: sometimes i use set
MSmits: depends
MSmits: unordered set
MSmits: that is
ZarthaxX: u never use your own hash table?
MSmits: well you can do custom hashers and equal functions
MSmits: so thats sort of my own then isnt it?
ZarthaxX: i meant the datastructure
ZarthaxX: not that
MSmits: nope, never done that
ZarthaxX: aight
MSmits: do you have examples/resources?
MSmits: might be interesting to me
ZarthaxX: i mean.. i can tell u stuff
MSmits: sure
ZarthaxX: u might find interesting how they manage it on chess bot
MSmits: i probably do
MSmits: thats almos tthe same thing i have to manage in most bots if i want to do transpositions
ZarthaxX: but basically an array where u might or not have a list in each
ZarthaxX: to manage collisions
MSmits: an array per cell?
MSmits: or something?
ZarthaxX: there is a way to design a hash table that wont work here which is if u collide in a spot, check next spot that is given by a function
ZarthaxX: lemme just find these concepts
MSmits: cool
ZarthaxX: wikipedia condenses all these concepts anyway
ZarthaxX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_probing
ZarthaxX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_hashing
ZarthaxX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_probing
ZarthaxX: different wayts to leads with collision when u have a table that stores 1 element per cell
ZarthaxX: and a collision is produced
ZarthaxX: i dont think that's worth here
cegprakash: just found a cool bug where my tracking will say opponent is nowhere in the map when I'm 2nd player
arnau: i need help with
JACK SILVER: THE CASINO in c#
MSmits: ah... well it should not be worth it at all in onitama, because when two keys are equal the state is equal, guaranteed. I was more thinking about bigger games, like yvalath, bandas etc.
ZarthaxX: and this was the other option u have, you store elements in a linked list in each cell
ZarthaxX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_table#Separate_chaining
ZarthaxX: u might as well replace the list with a fixed array so u keep best 3 maybe
ZarthaxX: in each cell
MSmits: did you use this stuff before ZarthaxX?
ZarthaxX: i didnt use the linear qudratic stuff, just showed it so you saw it,
ZarthaxX: not worth
ZarthaxX: but the other thing of array with a list i did
MSmits: ah double hashing, sounds smart
ZarthaxX: chess bot does the same too
ZarthaxX: it's really interesting to read the different tables it has
ZarthaxX: also how you discard an element when your cell bucket is full
MSmits: yeah. Thankfully most cg games aren't as complicated as chess
MSmits: so many different move types
ZarthaxX: right, but u can get ideas of how they model stuff
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: I always get referred to chess sites when i look up stuff, especially minimax style things
MSmits: if you get to transpositions, you always find chess sites
ZarthaxX: look at the TT of stockfish
ZarthaxX: https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/blob/master/src/tt.h
ZarthaxX: lol right :P
ZarthaxX: he has a TT with clusters of TTEntry
ZarthaxX: the same thing i said ebfore basically
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: ok thanks, I will remember next time I need a more complicated transposition table
ZarthaxX: :rofl:
ZarthaxX: anyway i tried this for breakthrough, tho i suspect as stockfish has more time to think
ZarthaxX: maybe it's more worth it
ZarthaxX: it's difficult here where u dont have many ms
MSmits: isnt a breakthrough has just two 64 bit boards xored together?
MSmits: xorshifted i mean
MSmits: doesnt seem much else to it
ZarthaxX: yeah but
ZarthaxX: it's not about the keys
MSmits: thats what i do for Yavalath
MSmits: oh?
ZarthaxX: it's about making a table that is faster than a map or set
ZarthaxX: to access
MSmits: ah ok, got it
ZarthaxX: or insert
ZarthaxX: as sets and maps are implemented with RB trees
MSmits: RB?
ZarthaxX: the fact that they are freeing and requesting memory
ZarthaxX: might affect your perf
ZarthaxX: but the array doesnt do that so its worth trying
cegprakash: ZarthaxX I added the 70% thingy
ZarthaxX: tho the set map might not lose info as this does
MSmits: hmm there is a different between unordered and ordered map though
ZarthaxX: red black tree
MSmits: orderedmap preserves some kind of ordering, it is slower in many cases
ZarthaxX: ah unordered srry, hash table there as i read
ZarthaxX: preserving order requires a tree
MSmits: ah ok
ZarthaxX: so that needs new and delete
MSmits: but you're saying I could also improve on an unordered map with my own hash table?
ZarthaxX: maybe, maybe not
ZarthaxX: u can try
MSmits: worth investigating
ZarthaxX: it's not much code to try
MSmits: well code isnt the problem
ZarthaxX: i never used set and map
ZarthaxX: unordered i mean
ZarthaxX: okey :P
MSmits: it's mostly reading the resources and understanding how it all works :)
MSmits: knowing what you're doing
ZarthaxX: there's not much around that
ZarthaxX: hash tables arepretty easy to get
ZarthaxX: trees variations not so much
MSmits: ah ok
ZarthaxX: trees require u to understand what to do after inserting / deleting elements
ZarthaxX: like how to maintain that data structure
MSmits: I see
ZarthaxX: so it preserves the properties that are worth
MSmits: and set and map use a tree?
ZarthaxX: that's a headache
MSmits: and unordered doesnt ?
ZarthaxX: yeah red black tree
ZarthaxX: it says it uses a hash table apparently
MSmits: k
MSmits: I've always used unordered, because every time I google it says its faster for what i want
MSmits: I guess thats because of what you say
MSmits: the tree maintaining
ZarthaxX: yes, anyway
cegprakash: wow it looks like a great submit
ZarthaxX: libraries are open osource
MSmits: yea
ZarthaxX: u can dive into the classes and check what's going on
ZarthaxX: cegprakash did the 70 worked?
MSmits: I can, but I am like my students.
MSmits: When I tell them to read, they will ask me to just tell them what it says :P
cegprakash: yes and I reduced the enemy silence jump distance from 4 to 1
ZarthaxX: https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/set-vs-unordered_set-c-stl/ MSmits
ZarthaxX: yeah i know lazy lol
ZarthaxX: cegprakash gud
MSmits: We need to keep a set of distinct elements and no ordering is required.
We need single element access i.e. no traversal.
cegprakash: I only lose against mines now
cegprakash: I need to start tracking mines
MSmits: thats always what i need
ZarthaxX: yeah but look at the search time
ZarthaxX: and insertion
ZarthaxX: and deletion
ZarthaxX: :P
ZarthaxX: i mean, if you could do a variation of that , doing it O(1) and sacrificing the accuracy, like more miss than hit
MSmits: search time is a bit hard to guess from that
MSmits: worst case is n
ZarthaxX: yeah i know
ZarthaxX: but if the table starts to populate
ZarthaxX: it may be a problem
ZarthaxX: also resizing
WINWINWIN: Lol I thought that people would have had enough of OoC by now :)
ZarthaxX: when table doesnt have any more space needs to resize
MSmits: can you initialize it with a huge space?
MSmits: or will that make it slow from the start?
MSmits: like you can give arrays a huge capacity just in case
MSmits: object pools etc.
K4Mx: i dont understand simple synhtax issue on clojure and also how to compare == simple java.lang.long, it gives null pointer exc
ZarthaxX: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/unordered_set/unordered_set/reserve/
ZarthaxX: like vector reserve i guess
MSmits: I might need that
MSmits: but i wonder
MSmits: if i make 100 mb of room for this unordered map
MSmits: wont I get problems with memory caching?
MSmits: because its gonna have buckets all over the place
MSmits: bucket mania
ZarthaxX: i mean yeah if you try storing in 2 opposite sides
ZarthaxX: it might..
MSmits: I am not *trying*, the hash function will do that, wont it?
MSmits: if it is given the room
MSmits: or will it keep the data close together?
ZarthaxX: what
ZarthaxX: i know you are not trying
ZarthaxX: i meant the code lol
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: i mean the implementation
ZarthaxX: it wont keep data together
ZarthaxX: the hash function does the job
ZarthaxX: but look for example at what happens
MSmits: yeah so i get memory caching issues
ZarthaxX: when u insert an element and the table is getting kind of "full"
ZarthaxX: A rehash is the reconstruction of the hash table: All the elements in the container are rearranged according to their hash value into the new set of buckets. This may alter the order of iteration of elements within the container.
ZarthaxX: a rehash happens
Astrobytes: I think you'd need to write a custom allocator for that
ZarthaxX: that might be a problem too
ZarthaxX: it wont happen often anyway
ZarthaxX: but still
MSmits: yeah, so basically what you do is you estimate how big your unordered map is going to be and give it that size from the start ?
Astrobytes: (re. keeping the memory contiguous)
MSmits: ah ok
ZarthaxX: MSmits yeah but..... if u exceed that..
ZarthaxX: Astrobytes its a hash table, its always continous
MSmits: then it rehashes
ZarthaxX: unless u implement it weirdly
ZarthaxX: chunks of data
ZarthaxX: of memory i mean
MSmits: I'm gonna have to read more on this and experiment
Astrobytes: ZarthaxX I misread :P
ZarthaxX: ah
ZarthaxX: hi astrobyto
ZarthaxX: MSmits gl :P
ZarthaxX: it's not too complex
MSmits: thanks
ZarthaxX: you can explore the unordered set anyway http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/unordered_set/unordered_set/
ZarthaxX: it tells what happens on each operation
MSmits: not down to what happens with memory does it?
MSmits: i just wonder what happens if say, I insert an integer in an integer set. What happens if i inset 4 and then 34560. Are they going to be close togehter in memory? Or far apart? Is this related to the capacity that is set?
darkstar: hi everyone :) how are you all today?
MSmits: i know there's a hash function that is applied to it
MSmits: but that doesnt tell me where the allocator is going to put it in memory
MSmits: hi darkstar
Astrobytes: In that case, maybe you do need a custom allocator
MSmits: well not sure, I don't even know how it normally works
Astrobytes: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/allocator
MSmits: memory caching effects are a very real thing
Astrobytes: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/unordered_map
MSmits: in bots
MSmits: yeah i saw that, but i dont see much at first glance. Doesnt tell me how it works. Might be me though
Astrobytes: https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/stdallocator-in-cpp-with-examples/
Astrobytes: "All the STL containers in C++ have a type parameter Allocator that is by default std::allocator. The default allocator simply uses the operators new and delete to obtain and release memory."
MSmits: ok, but the location of the memory is still not visible
MSmits: it's going "somewhere"
Astrobytes: Yes, hence writing your own allocator
eulerscheZahl: is it me or is there something wrong with github right now?
eulerscheZahl: e.g. no access to repos
Astrobytes: I can't even access it rn
eulerscheZahl: great, then it's fine on my side :)
eulerscheZahl: 504 gateway timeout
MSmits: Whoops, something went wrong!
We track these errors automatically, but if the problem persists feel free to contact us.
In the meantime, try refreshing.
darkstar: github seems ok for me
Astrobytes: getting github error 500
eulerscheZahl: some of my requests seem to pass, others timeout
darkstar: yeah ok, my bad, same here
darkstar: luck of the draw
Astrobytes: Yeah, I'm alternating between 504 and 500
darkstar: at least you get a nice unicorn
eulerscheZahl: the first time i want to try tech.io and then this happens (to create a playground, you have to push you stuff on github and they pull it)
MSmits: you never made a playground before?
MSmits: that surprises me
eulerscheZahl: what about?
ZarthaxX: MSmits u cant really know where the element is landing
eulerscheZahl: i guess some microsoft devs are sweating right now
Astrobytes: MSmits, so if you want to control where your memory is being allocated/whether constructors are called etc then you can do that in the allocator
ZarthaxX: lol
Astrobytes: But it seems a bit of a faff
MSmits: tabbing doesnt work suddenly
ZarthaxX: i think he doesnt care about that
ZarthaxX: he meant about the elements
ZarthaxX: if u can keep them close together
MSmits: if you keep them close doesnt that mean they could be in the same bucket?
ZarthaxX: if they fall in the same place u mean
MSmits: I imagine a bucket as having an amount of room in memory that can hold multiple values
ZarthaxX: aha
MSmits: that means that if you want more buckets, you need more memory
MSmits: and if you want less collisions, you need a larger capacity
Astrobytes: You could have written your own hashtable by now MSmits
MSmits: lol
MSmits: i am not in a hurry, for now it is fine to use unordered map for Onitama
ZarthaxX: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/unordered_set/unordered_set/bucket_size/
MSmits: if I am even going to do transpositions
ZarthaxX: the rehashign happens when there are many elements in buckets
MSmits: yeah so it's like this. The more memory you assign, the smaller the chance of elements being in the same bucket
ZarthaxX: yes
MSmits: but the farther the buckets are apart
MSmits: so the more cache misses you get
ZarthaxX: aha
ZarthaxX: but if u desgin a hash functin
ZarthaxX: that tries to keep close states that are similar
ZarthaxX: maybe u win
MSmits: yeah but thats not easy to do in most games I think
ZarthaxX: close = not in same bucket
ZarthaxX: i know
ZarthaxX: just saying
ZarthaxX: anyway, worth researching
MSmits: its a good point
ZarthaxX: making your own type
MSmits: right, well I am going to try to make my onitama bot work with random moves today
ZarthaxX: gl with that
MSmits: I want it to correctly record the states, create the moves and pick one at random
ZarthaxX: i dont know about that game tho
MSmits: that'll be half the bot probably
MSmits: it's cool
ZarthaxX: i see
ZarthaxX: i will go do uni stuff
ZarthaxX: gl smito :)
MSmits: hf :)
AntiSquid: some avatars are too ugly to test against in the IDE
eulerscheZahl: :D
eulerscheZahl: the main page has a section
IMPROVE YOUR CODING SKILLS WITH THE FOLLOWING PUZZLE
eulerscheZahl: once it suggested a completely boring puzzle
eulerscheZahl: but i didn't wanted to see the creator's face anymore, so i solved it
Astrobytes: lol
blasterpoard: I just filter ##.ng-scope.next-game.item with my adblock
blasterpoard: together with everything clash-related
eulerscheZahl: good decision
blasterpoard: it's slightly annoying when CG tries to convince me I can improve by solving easy puzzles
blasterpoard: and gain a new skill called "Conditions"
JimmySmith: How does one progress without first learning the basics though? lol We all learn different sir
AntiSquid: ya blaster go learn the basics
eulerscheZahl: when i was new on CG, you even had to unlock the hard puzzles by solving the easy ones first
eulerscheZahl: i think they removed that feature now
blasterpoard: I haven't noticed anything like that
reCurse: Oh yeah I remember that
eulerscheZahl: great, i'm not crazy then
eulerscheZahl: annoyed me
eulerscheZahl: kovi
"that it maybe increased the looserate by 5%"
so you lost more?
Illedan: Hi
ZarthaxX: hey illo
kovi: lol euler. no
CyrusTheCurator: I wish things like Codingame were around back in my 2012 AP computer science classes
CyrusTheCurator: I took a massively long hiatus from C sci and now I'm paying for it D:, 7 years to catch up on
AntiSquid: 2012 they only had a simple puzzle contest
CyrusTheCurator: Well, no time like the present. Gotta do everything I can to make this tech career work
wlesavo: kovi thx for PM
stacked: halo
cegprakash: what is the BGM used in Join the PAC Spring challenge video?
cegprakash: I want the song plz I'm so addicted to it
AntiSquid: google youtube to mp3
Zenoscave: about 5K CP from first in US. I'm close
Kissmyoss: Hi, it's possible to reset rank of challenge ? i would like play with friend in wood league
cegprakash: enemy is able to shoot me when I'm at 7 distance :O. I had this bug in my tracking when I assumed I've to be within distance of 6
ZarthaxX: no Kissmyoss
ZarthaxX: only way is to delete acc
ZarthaxX: :)
wlesavo: is there a known issue with fonts changing to 13px in ide?
YannT: reset browser zoom? :p
WaRiOrOfCoDe: can anyone tell me what is re library in python?
tomatoes: regular expressions
WaRiOrOfCoDe: thanks i'll read about it.
wlesavo: YannT somehow it concerns only the code window, not whole page
YannT: might be a shortcut oof the IIDE, I think its got those
YannT: https://github.com/ajaxorg/ace/wiki/Default-Keyboard-Shortcuts
pb4: PM available
wlesavo: 8 versions :neutral_face:
swamianilsaraswati: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/d2405946-6153-4bb9-b3f4-ed5dd71e375d
swamianilsaraswati: Hi ALl
I am new to codingame and new to bot programming also.
swamianilsaraswati: I started Coders Strike Back to program but I am unable to understand the next phase. How to win from Boss 4?
swamianilsaraswati: Any help?
How to think of the algorithm in terms of maths?
kovi: nice pb4
Scarfield: -3vel :p
Scarfield: what league are boss 4 swamianilsaraswati
stacked: how do i close the discord
stacked: its so annoying
stacked: and close all the open room tabs
Uljahn: with adblock or userscript addon such as stylus
MadKnight: yea i closed it with adblock
swamianilsaraswati: might be silver @Scarfield
cegprakash: does trigger mine has infinite cast range?
tomatoes: yes
cegprakash: oh makes sense
Scarfield: if you are targeting your next checkpoint, subtracting 3vel from your pods target will help it adjust for its current velocity
ZarthaxX: pb4 typo here? For a torpedo, it is simply the damage probability given the opponent presence map damageProbability*0.95^0
pb4: nope
pb4: 0.95^turn
pb4: when turn = 0
ZarthaxX: ah as i didnt see a ^turn
ZarthaxX: aight
Stunji_Ray: ji
Stunji_Ray: hi
cegprakash: ZarthaxX I added crappy mine and triggers..
cegprakash: will I get promoted to Gold?
cegprakash: I have added every possible thing there is
cegprakash: why am I still in silver
cegprakash: Crog stop wrecking me
eulerscheZahl: then you added it wrong?
eulerscheZahl: and i don't think it's possible to add everything and stay below the 100kB upload limit
cegprakash: lol
cegprakash: I changed the constants in my eval
cegprakash: and my rank is jumping again
cegprakash: so there was this case where my bot went inside a choke point (forcing a SURFACE in the next turn) just so I can deal him a damage
cegprakash: so I changed my scoring to never enter into choke points
cegprakash: but looks like taking life away is more important
cegprakash: risking our own life
eulerscheZahl: it's a dangerous game
eulerscheZahl: so don't hide under the table and start fighting
cegprakash: u sure?
cegprakash: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/3a39bb83-5113-4660-bc35-dc8b7ca3d8e2
eulerscheZahl: all a matter of timing
cegprakash: that's my eval now
cegprakash: should I change something
eulerscheZahl: don't start a fight when it's not an advantage for you
cegprakash: how do I know if I am at advantage
cegprakash: :'(
eulerscheZahl: that's the hard part of the game
cegprakash: how does my eval look
eulerscheZahl: not gonna read that
tobk: maybe that's a dumb question, but how do I set the game seed in the OoC offline runner?
tobk: always uses 1337 and I can't find it in the readme
wlesavo: in the Main.java gameRunner.setSeed();
tomatoes: src/test/java/Main.java
tobk: so you have to recompile it each time?
tobk: hm, maybe I'll tweak that myself a bit...
YamilBrayan: can someone help me with the exercise blowing fuse , i need the solution
cegprakash: my bot gets into some weird timeouts :(
Stunji_Ray: in what
cegprakash: it was a bug.. it wasn't timeout.. my -INF was -10^7 but all my solutions returned lesser score than -10^7
cegprakash: so my final soluton had some empty state
cegprakash: 34% rank 48
cegprakash: go go go
cegprakash: Crog u resubmitted?
Crog: yes
cegprakash: we are wrecking each other
cegprakash: instead of climbing
Crog: with a slight improvement on mines
cegprakash: did you start tracking yourself?
Crog: tell me how to reach gold and I'll stop wrecking you
cegprakash: haha
Crog: no I'm not tracking myself
cegprakash: so that's the way to reach gold I think :P
cegprakash: I have lot of room to improve my mines
Crog: might be
cegprakash: I always blast the top leftmost mine now
cegprakash: trigger*
cegprakash: and I am not learning from trigger result
Crog: I'm choosing the best mine to trigger with my current knowledge of where the opponent is, + I'm learning from the trigger result (except when the opponent does something that makes the analysis unsure)
cegprakash: do u trigger and torpedo on the same turn
Crog: yes
cegprakash: I am unable to calculate the positions properly when I do so
Crog: I don't get it , what's the difficulty ?
cegprakash: if he gets damage only from one of them
cegprakash: say 1 damage
cegprakash: do u decide he took damage from torpedo or from trigger?
TheFlashKnight_c529: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/80d94786-eb52-4b2f-84ef-8c42c206f449
Crog: ah you mean, do I analyze the result of the hit when I hit after firing a mine and a torpedo at the same turn ?
Crog: so the answer is yes : when that happens I can make the assumption that at the previous turn the opponent was in either of the two blast areas - or in both of them
Crog: i.e. I'm sure the opponent was NOT in the remainder of the world
tomatoes: im applying all explosions to "virtual games" and in the next turn prune by health mismatch
cegprakash: my bot always starts from 13,1 even though I am doing random spawn point
Crog: what language are you using ?
cegprakash: C++
cegprakash: Crog I get what u mean.. I need to construct a damage map
Crog: do you use default_random_engine ?
cegprakash: I just use rand() in c++ from cmath
Crog: ok
Crog: if you want to be "really" random
Crog: you need to set a varying seed
Crog: srand()
cegprakash: I'll try uniform distribution for spawn alone
Crog: or alternatively you could switch to modern C++ - and use random_device
cegprakash: shouldn't be slow
Crog: random_device is non deterministic
cegprakash: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/numeric/random/uniform_int_distribution
Crog: unless you need millions of random values per turn, you don't care how complex the random generation is
Crog: in my (c++) code I use default_random_engine coupled with uniform_int_distribution
Crog: I prefer to use a deterministic random source - so as to be able to reproduce games and debug
Swagboy: Hmm no Crog, it can get heavy before millions of call
cegprakash: my spawn locations are now random
cegprakash: thanks to uniform int distribution
Astrobytes: what were you seeding srad() with before cegprakash?
Astrobytes: *srand()
cegprakash: no seed
Astrobytes: ...
cegprakash: only rand
Astrobytes: call srand(seed) at start of main()
cegprakash: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/c75956eb-f95f-4b22-97bc-2c4ba8b42390
Astrobytes: I meant before when you were using rand()
cegprakash: no seed
Astrobytes: from cmath
Astrobytes: you have to seed it first
Astrobytes: or you will get the same values
cegprakash: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/453843307 lovely replay of wrecking the silver boss
cegprakash: but it only happens in IDE not in arena
cegprakash: story of my life
Astrobytes: Anyone got a brick wall I can talk to?
cegprakash: srand is slow right?
cegprakash: I like fast
Astrobytes: Is your random the bottleneck in your code right now?
cegprakash: yes I use simu
cegprakash: so
Astrobytes: Is your random the bottleneck in your code right now?
Astrobytes: Have you profiled it and discovered that your rand( )was slowing you down?
cegprakash: Don't think so
cegprakash: only for spawn I was worriedd
Astrobytes: Well then.
Astrobytes: Use a xorshift or something if you're really bothered
cegprakash: because I always used to spawn at 13m1
cegprakash: 13,1*
cegprakash: and enemy predict that easily
Astrobytes: BECAUSE YOU DID NOT SEED srand()
Astrobytes: I give up
cegprakash: I am not using srand -_-
cegprakash: only rand
Crog: lol
Astrobytes: if you use rand(), use srand(SEED) or YOU WILL GET THE SAME VALUES
cegprakash: okay I try that
Astrobytes: FML
cegprakash: lets see if it improves my bot
tomatoes: use srand before rand, not instead
Crog: to be clear : use srand() once, then use rand ()
Astrobytes: That's what I'm telling him tomatoes
Astrobytes: Astrobytes 10:48PM
call srand(seed) at start of main()
tomatoes: :upside_down:
Astrobytes: Trying to tell ceg things is often like banging your head against a wall, it's just how he is
cegprakash: first run with srand won the game
cegprakash: so I'm submitting
Astrobytes: :no_mouth:
cegprakash: not bad.. 11 wins in 14
cegprakash: srand works
cegprakash: I'm using srand(time(0));
cegprakash: as I read in some blog
Astrobytes: Yep. But if you want it to be reproducible in the IDE you need a fixed seed
Astrobytes: Like based on the map, or your id or smth
cegprakash: but fixed seed is not random
Astrobytes: I literally give up
MSmits: don't think thats fair Astrobytes
MSmits: (to the wall)
TheFlashKnight_c529: hello, how can i play 1v1 with my friend?
MSmits: clash of code I guess?
cegprakash: just choose the player u want to play against instead of the boss
cegprakash: you can remove the boss TheFlashKnight_c529
TheFlashKnight_c529: yah, i found it, thx <3
Astrobytes: MSmits lol, right?
MSmits: yep
cegprakash: wow srand took my bot from #50 to top 10 already
VincentBab: Hey MSmits I need your help for UTTT :D
MSmits: what do you want to know VincentBab?
Astrobytes: Moral of the story kids, always seed your rng... :expressionless:
VincentBab: I just remembered that i try this game a while ago and didnt success to pass legend :(
MSmits: to get into legend, the easiest way is to do the following 3 things:
MSmits: 1) Fast language
VincentBab: I tried AlphaBeta & MCTS
MSmits: 2) bitboard
MSmits: 3) mcts
VincentBab: I optimized all my best even replacing log and sqrt function with fast ones
MSmits: it's easy to make a mistake with mcts though
MSmits: how many rollouts in the 2nd turn?
VincentBab: humm I dont remember, let my start it again xD
MSmits: it's a good benchmark
MSmits: you need about 25k to reach legend I think, not entirely sure
Astrobytes: cegprakash do you use C++ or C in your job?
MSmits: I have between 90k-130k depending on which cpu is used
cegprakash: neither
Astrobytes: Good
Astrobytes: :D
cegprakash: I use the shittiest language I ever known
Astrobytes: PHP or JS?
cegprakash: JS
cegprakash: :D
Astrobytes: :D
Astrobytes: Has it's place I suppose
cegprakash: they both do
cegprakash: but PHP has improved
cegprakash: I like Laravel
Astrobytes: I didn't use PHP since about 2009-ish
VincentBab: hum my IA is in AlphaBeta mode, i need to remember how to switch it to MCTS xD
VincentBab: AI*
MSmits: hehe ok, it's not that easy to get legend with a minimax bot though
MSmits: the thing is, minimax requires creativity, namely you need to create an evaluation function
VincentBab: i'm 15 gold with minmax
MSmits: mcts in uttt doesnt, random simulation is enough
VincentBab: yeah thats the hard part
MSmits: thats why its easier
VincentBab: but also a fun part
MSmits: you mean eval? Meh I never like having to write eval
VincentBab: i like watching replays and think how i can improve my eval xD
MSmits: yeah good luck with that on uttt, it's really hard to tell what is going on
MSmits: what language btw?
Astrobytes: Nice submit cegprakash, definite improvement
cegprakash: yes
cegprakash: I literally have no bugs in my tracking except there are rooms to improve
Astrobytes: "I literally have no bugs" said everyone ever :P
cegprakash: but I am thinking of playing around with my magic numbers
Astrobytes: Are you using a GA as usual?
cegprakash: random search + mutation
Astrobytes: For the whole thing or for separate parts?
cegprakash: whole thing
cegprakash: at each turn I fist decide I need to use SURFACE this turn or not
cegprakash: then based on the result I've some set of combos
cegprakash: that I try at random
VincentBab: humm my optimisation must not be so good... 20k rollout at second turn xD
wlesavo: "I literally have no bugs" famous last words
Astrobytes: VincentBab C++?
wlesavo: reading pb's post mortem i wondered how i won a single game with him
VincentBab: yes
Astrobytes: You have the pragmas?
VincentBab: yes
Astrobytes: Then it's time to mine MSmits for information :P
MSmits: ah, 20k is not enough no
MSmits: do you use an object pool?
MSmits: what does your tree node look like?
MSmits: do you save the gamestate on the node or separately?
Astrobytes: Btw, MSmits, you *were* referring to potential cache misses etc using unordered_map earlier right? By not knowing where the memory is being allocated?
VincentBab: yes I have object pool
Node *node = &Node::nodes[Node::nbNodes++];
MSmits: ah ok, if you want to paste your node class here (just the properties on it) I can tell you what is wrong, if anything
MSmits: or PM me, that works too
MSmits: Astrobytes I was just wondering what would happen to locality if I gave my unordered map a capacity of 100 mb
MSmits: to avoid resizing
VincentBab: ok :)
tomatoes: i tuned "c" and it gives me a good boost
MSmits: my theory is that it would spread out the buckets in memory and destroy locality and cause misses
Astrobytes: It will
Astrobytes: Your only way around that is with a custom allocator
Astrobytes: Or write your own
Astrobytes: The unordered_map doesn't care where it's putting the data, it only cares whether the addresses are valid
Astrobytes: I feel you should consult re Curse on this, I'm by no means an expert. But there's a reason why people create custom STL-like containers
reCurse: Locality in hash map...
MSmits: what if the hash map is really large reCurse?
MSmits: if you make it too large, you get locality problems dont you?
reCurse: I'd say it probably stopped mattering way before that
Astrobytes: You get locality problems regardless
MSmits: what I mean is, to avoid resizing you can set the capacity to be large
MSmits: but too large gives locality issues
MSmits: maybe i am worrying about non-issues here
reCurse: Likely so
reCurse: You're going to have locality issues wayyyyy before 100mb
MSmits: it was just a number i mentioned
MSmits: could be anything really
reCurse: And worrying about locality with hashing is like worrying about not having hair anywhere when having a dog
MSmits: I was comparing it to using a List in C#... it's often best to give it a large capacity so it doesnt resize as your list grows
MSmits: might not be a good parallel
reCurse: Yeah but then it doesnt matter
reCurse: Because most of your data will always be concentrated at the beginning
reCurse: A hash table will spread it out by definition
reCurse: A hash lookup is also known as a cache miss
MSmits: hmm ok, but wont it spread out more if you give it a large size?
cegprakash: if (players[1 - myId].life <= 0) {
score += fatalityScore;
}
Is it possible to write this statement without if condition
reCurse: Sure but it already stopped mattering a long time ago
MSmits: hmm ok
reCurse: Unless your hash table was really small
reCurse: But if that was the case
reCurse: Then you'd have been better off with a vector anyway
cegprakash: oh wait I can precompute score based on lifes
cegprakash: f**k me
MSmits: think about expansion of 10,000 nodes in a mcts run and me adding them all to transposition tables
reCurse: As far as cache is concerned you already betrayed it
MSmits: hm ok
MSmits: i dunno why we spent so much time talking about this today, it's not even a very pressing issue to me atm. But good you put it to rest :)
reCurse: You'd prefer explaining RNG?
Astrobytes: don't get me started
MSmits: err
Astrobytes: See MSmits, when in doubt, call reCurse
MSmits: no need to discuss rng as far as I'm concerned :P
reCurse: I was poking fun at someone else
Astrobytes: :smirk:
MSmits: yeah i read something about using a fixed seed
MSmits: in the last contest I made a seed out of islands
Astrobytes: no, rng with *no seed at all*
MSmits: oh, you want to hook quantummechanical experiments up to your PC?
Astrobytes: Goddammit man scroll up
MSmits: allright
MSmits: ahhh the wall thing
MSmits: got it
Astrobytes: I was seconds away from pinging reCurse and leaving
reCurse: Oh I'm not bothering anymore
Astrobytes: :D
Astrobytes: I might just go back to posting lmgtfy links
MSmits: any good ones?
Astrobytes: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=any+good+ones%3F
MSmits: ohh that
Astrobytes: Preferable to explaining things to brick walls ;)
MSmits: hey but the brick wall finally understood didn't it
MSmits: you succeeded
Astrobytes: Don't know why I bothered. Not like it would be reciprocated
MSmits: ahh well maybe someone else read it too
MSmits: maybe you helped droves of people without realizing it
Astrobytes: You're such an optimist!
MSmits: people log in briefly and they go... ohh Astrobytes put another gem of wisdom up, quick, copy it down for the future
Astrobytes: "another gem of wisdom" my ass :D
MSmits: :)
Astrobytes: Maybe I'll switch careers and do tech support...
MSmits: if you feel your life has too few brick walls in it
Astrobytes: lol, ever dealt with pharmaceutical company bosses?
MSmits: not recently
Astrobytes: But yeah, "have you tried unplugging it" would wear thin I guess
MSmits: yeah
**wlesavo logs in briefly for collecting Astrobytes's Gems of Wisdom
Kathrin: MSmits, how do you know what I'm doing?
MSmits: omniscience?
Astrobytes: lol wlesavo
**wlesavo already gone with all the gems
wlesavo: gn btw :slight_smile:
Kathrin: But to be honest, I copy and think: cache miss optimisation, thats magic.
Astrobytes: lol, gn wlesavo
MSmits: gn wlesavo
Kathrin: c++ and java stars are in different universes
MSmits: Kathrin wrong gems, you need Astrobytes gems
MSmits: yeah c++ != java
Astrobytes: Why me? reCurse did the heavy lifting in that explanation!
Astrobytes: I am but a humble biologist (with hair)
MSmits: that you are
MSmits: gonna go sleep
MSmits: gn !
Kathrin: gn
Astrobytes: not far off myself, gn man, take care
JaapJVI: gn
cegprakash: last battles started to crash :(
Uljahn: did i miss reCurs e explaining cache miss optimisations? chat log is too short :(
icecream17: =O How have I never heard of "Array.prototype.foreach"!???
icecream17: So useful!
MadKnight: lol
MadKnight: how exactly do u use it icecream17 ?
MadKnight: show me an example
icecream17: available.forEach(element => console.error(element))
MadKnight: right
MadKnight: but why so long name ?
MadKnight: i do x =>
MadKnight: best name
icecream17: (example from MDN)
icecream17: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/forEach
icecream17: There's a for...of statement!?? I can't believe it...
AliElgamel9: kotlin is the future
Uljahn: D >>> kotlin
EdReynolds: Gah. Boss 4 is killing me >.<
