LinhT.Nguyen: it's numpy!!
Allis: For transpose?
LinhT.Nguyen: yeah
LinhT.Nguyen: but i think i found something
LinhT.Nguyen: else
LinhT.Nguyen: fck my brain alright xD
Allis: @LinhT.Nguyen Here ya go: https://ideone.com/IPpiJg
jdsfklsd: braed
jdsfklsd: bread
jdsfklsd: brioche
Allis: Having to explicitly say list() everywhere is annoying, but being able to transpose just by zipping the splat is very nice.
BiMathAx: Hello, i tonna to do thé puzzle happy number but i don’t understabd Thais : « of irse digits ion base-ten »... What is this, please
eulerscheZahl: «of its digits in base-ten»
that's what the statement says
riccoraga: @MathieuGanesan
jacek: oO
jacek: meh, checkers is so drawish in the top
MSmits: yeah, especially because of loops
MSmits: endgame books would fix this, but they are really big in checkers. 3-4 pieces is the best you can do
MSmits: mostly because you need a DTM as opposed to WLD endgame base. You need the time to win instead of the W/L/D value. If you know the time to win of a state, you can end the game as fast as possible
MSmits: time to win is at least 8 bit as opposed to WLD, which is 3 bit
MSmits: err less than 2 bit even
jacek: mmh
MSmits: you can generate it on the fly in some way, but you need a very efficient algo. But then at least space wont matter much
MSmits: i do it on the fly in oware. Last night I boosted the performance to being able to do 8 seeds in 300 ms :)
MSmits: my original was 6 seeds and also took 300 ms, now 20 ms. Crazy boost
jacek: at first turn?
MSmits: yeah
jacek: and how does it affect winrate
MSmits: a little, it's really really hard to tell because there is a huge gap between the 4 NN's and the number 5
jacek: at least self winrate
MSmits: hmm I should test that. I will have to submit without both books, then do a CG bench with 8 seed endgame book
jacek: so you dont have some local arena? you do it all via cgbench? :O
MSmits: I do I think, I havent used it in a year o rmore
MSmits: i generally dont run more than 5-10 games or so, i just need to find one i lose to create the opening book with
MSmits: and I lose a lot vs you
MSmits: the sad thing is, my 9 seed takes about 1200 ms =/
MSmits: i can calculate it over the next few turns i think, but that's so messy
jacek: until you find a more efficient algo
MSmits: this is pretty efficient though. This one is able to create a db roughly 14 million states with their end game seed count
MSmits: 75582 different states * 185 turns (because turn matters)
MSmits: thats in 300 ms. So it could do 50 million in the full 1s
MSmits: my local DB goes up to 15 seeds in an hour, with this boost I could make it go much faster, but 16 seeds will still take 100 times longer because 15 seed db fits exactly in 4 GB memory, I would have to use harddrive memory :(
jacek: 4GB RAM? what year is it
MSmits: its not the ram limitation
MSmits: the arrays required cant be bigger than some value
MSmits: the compilers just wont let you
jacek: C# limitation?
MSmits: c++
MSmits: in VS anyway
jacek: w00t
MSmits: I could get up to 22 seeds with 100 GB HD the way i am storing it now
MSmits: more seeds is nice, because you can local sim and end with a lookup at 22 as opposed to simming till 15
MSmits: it's faster, but also more accurate
MSmits: I think this perfectly reflects my winrate vs the NN's now:
MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-oware-abapa/msmits
MSmits: recurse's last submit was always very strong vs my bot and you and robo submitted a very strong bot at the end. I was 0-10% vs them without my opening book. Agade was always 55%
jacek: better than agade, neat
jacek: huh, robo so down, he was 2nd
MSmits: i did a lot of submits
MSmits: and i have an opening book vs you and robo, not so much vs recurse and agade
MSmits: he can resubmit and get back up
MSmits: preferably a few times, so i get boosted to 3rd :p
MSmits: btw, I thought your bot was very deterministic, but that random chance does produce some offshoots in the tree. On average one split every 5-10 plies
MSmits: robo's has one split in the full opening book tree. Almost completely deterministic
MSmits: it's a smart move
MSmits: noticed this in Othello as well
MSmits: must be difficult to balance this. If you make the random thingy too large, your bot gets worse
jacek: my UCT is [0.9,1.1] * eval + exploration
MSmits: ahh yes, that's what i would have expected
jacek: so it isnt completely deterministic even with fixed rollouts
MSmits: it only changes stuff around when several moves are nearly equally good
jacek: its good for testing the strength, because either it would be 100% or 0%
jacek: and against boomers
jacek: bookers*
jacek: :D
MSmits: yea, it does help a lot
MSmits: i wonder if this would help me fit parameters by self play
MSmits: i could even create an opening book while using it at the same time
MSmits: btw i checked earlier and the book only has 707 moves in it still and that includes the opponents moves i dont play, just to build the tree. That's after months of calctime
MSmits: so you can see why i havent needed that unicode thing before
Allis: Months?!
MSmits: well yeah, i have it running in the background on a single core
MSmits: Games played: 2546303
MSmits: a game takes 1-3 seconds
MSmits: every game adds a node to the tree
jacek: yeah, only months
MSmits: :)
MSmits: I've done this for yavalath, uttt and othello as well
MSmits: for uttt with little success except vs other people that use books
AntiSquid: how come you didn't have your own NN attempt yet MSmits?
jacek: he has - its book
AntiSquid: that's different
jacek: only cool kids have NN
AntiSquid: only the top NNs are cool :P
jacek: AutomatonNN is it true?
AutomatonNN: I come to the beach and sure :)
YurkovAS: jacek do you have open book in uttt?
jacek: no. only teccles'
AntiSquid: are we going to see some nasty bail-ins AutomatonNN ?
AutomatonNN: yeah
JefMacatugob: hi
Q12: Why sometime I have this message:
"Warning: your code did not read all available input before printing an instruction, your outputs will not be synchronized with the game's turns and unexpected behaviour may occur."
and after I click run test case again (the same test case), without changing a thing, it disappear.
Do you know why this is happening?
eulerscheZahl: that's because of the goblin living on one of the CG servers
MSmits: I'm pretty sure it's a toad
LastRick: Like most warnings, I just ignore it. I'm sure that's fine.
A.F: hi
A.F: how to do coders strike back
A.F: :grin:
jacek: ?
jacek: the more you know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheskers
Robin: Hey guys, sorry to disturb. Just a question. Do you know the recursion limit of the CodinGame evaluator?
eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/faq
the defaults of your language
jacek: what is the defaults of french?
eulerscheZahl: numbers go up to 60. then you have to use math
Robin: Thanks for that. But it's doesn't answer my question unfortunately.. It says how much memory is available. Not how big the call stack can be..
eulerscheZahl: it gives a a list of compiler versions used
eulerscheZahl: consult the docs for that specific language and version
jacek: medical docs?
Robin: Not trivial. It depends on how much memory has been allocated to the stack. With java it can be done with the -Xss flag.
Robin: Anyway, I'll never know..
jacek: so make some experiments
Robin: By doing a simple infinite recursion, I can go to over 10000 calls before it crashes.
Robin: With my program, it fails with fewer than 5000.
Robin: Screw this, I don't want to remove the recursion...
besirgunduz: hello guys
jacek: ohai
FuriousT: I assume you've accounted for any parameters passed in your recursion experiment + locals of the function you are recursing.
jacek: damm you recursion https://www.codingame.com/replay/493782102
MSmits: bug in your sim jacek?
MSmits: I know your pain, it's hard
MSmits: are you doing it on a bitboard?
jacek: i copied some bitboard implementation in python to c++
jacek: i think the sim is good but translating move to this notation is bugged
MSmits: ah yeah, thats annoying as well
MSmits: it's different for different games too I think
MSmits: sometimes the top is 1, sometimes bottom
MSmits: yay, seed 9 book finished calculating on ply 10
MSmits: so that should work in most games unless my opponent plays ridiculous moves that aren't in the opening book
MSmits: wonder if it's worth doing a 10 seed one
MSmits: probably finish at ply 70 or something :P
jacek: so you pick book move and calculate the endgame in rest of the turn?
MSmits: yeah
jacek: x.x
MSmits: first time i do something crazy like that
kaanersoy12: Guys hi, how can i get hint about game i am a new i want to learn
Emreunsal: mal aq
MSmits: which game?
kaanersoy12: The Descent
jacek: there are some hints for puzzles.
jacek: on the left
MSmits: yeah there's a thingy you can click
kaanersoy12: there is mountains so scary :/
MSmits: the descent is mostly about going through the loop and outputting the highest one
MSmits: it looks a bit weird because you're already in a loop, but this is the game loop
MSmits: you have to write your own loop where you pick the highest mountain
MSmits: and output this
kaanersoy12: Okey i can understand it is a good one :)
kaanersoy12: thanks.
kaanersoy12: a lot
MSmits: np
Astrobytes: up to 9 seeds for your book now MSmits? Impressive!
Emreunsal: mal aq
kaanersoy12: How can i get the heighest mountain value?
Emreunsal: :heart_eyes:
kaanersoy12: i can't do it till 30 minutes lol :)
kaanersoy12: i can't do it
kaanersoy12: How can i get the highest mountain value in The Descent game ? please help
Emreunsal: help help
Emreunsal: heeeeeeelp
Emreunsal: HEEEEEELP
Emreunsal: !!!
jacek: :thinking:
Emreunsal: List<Checkpoint> checkpoints = new List<Checkpoint>();
Checkpoint farthestCheckpoint = new Checkpoint(-1, -1);
Checkpoint previousCheckpoint = new Checkpoint(-1, -1);
MSmits: Astrobytes yeah, still ironing out some bugs, but 9 seeds seems to be doable. Maybe 10 seeds too but probably not realistic
jacek: you gotta pump those numbers up
jacek: up to 48
MSmits: lol
eulerscheZahl: and add a 20 before
jacek: then maybe youll have chance
MSmits: :grin:
eulerscheZahl: promoting stuff like jacek does with paper soccer :P
MSmits: main limit is cache efficiency. You need to do a lot of lookups during the generation of the db. Once the db gets to 30 million entries...
MSmits: no way around that really
MSmits: i did some profiling and 70% of the calc time was just getting a value out of the db and it's a plain array lookup, cant be made faster
Astrobytes: oof
MSmits: i just tried to code a progress indicator for the seed9 book and multiplied the steps done by 100 and divide by the total steps. There are so many steps that I got a negative percentage... went out of 32 bit range :P
AntiSquid: paper soccer is not real football, change my mind
eulerscheZahl: and chess is no sport
eulerscheZahl: neither is e-sport
jacek: paper soccer was once puzzle of the week... during contest... :(
eulerscheZahl: bad timing
MSmits: that's just mean
eulerscheZahl: onitama gained 100 players in that 1 week
and dots and boxes even more
AntiSquid: sorry for you man, it's like winning lottery when there's a huge % tax on it :P
MSmits: I don't dislike paper soccer really. I just always seem to have 2 or 3 games that rank higher for me.
jacek: 258 on d&b, when there was less than 50 week before
jacek: just like coronavirus cases
jacek: i would have thought more people played it at school. but its apparently only popular in poland and mid/eastern europe
MSmits: yeah i didnt play it at school, only D&B I think
eulerscheZahl: i did neither
eulerscheZahl: only four in a row (rarely)
jacek: euler had no chill at school
AntiSquid: i played d&b in school was #1, beat the guy who was addicted to it, totally meaningless achievement, but since we are on the topic ...
MSmits: that's cool AntiSquid
MSmits: I bet he still visits the psych talking about you
jacek: and yet youre at the bottom of leaderboard
jacek: plot twist: that was Crazy_Remi
AntiSquid: i put 0 time into it
LucaInPython: hi
jacek: is it true https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aQdBpod_700bwp.webp
MSmits: eh never heard of that
MSmits: why?, did you stub your toe and looking to move here?
MaliciouslyCrypticUsername: loool
jacek: maybe
Astrobytes: Does a back/bone problem qualify as a disability? Asking for a friend... :P
jacek: first weed and now this?
jacek: how can you get even cooler than that?
Astrobytes: Apartments without heating
AntiSquid: physics professors skipping class @jacek
AntiSquid: and python was born there
MSmits: I dunno, the coolness must be focused in a different part of my country, Not feelin it here
eulerscheZahl: was a discussion here as well https://www.spiegel.de/gesundheit/sex/sexualbegleitung-fuer-behinderte-umsetzung-von-grundrecht-oder-prostitution-a-1129343.html
Astrobytes: "Some sex care workers admitted to being ‘sneaked’ into the house of their clients, especially through their backdoors"
eulerscheZahl: check the last paragraph, even mentions the Netherlands as an example
eulerscheZahl: (sorry for German)
jacek: :scream:
MSmits: I was honestly just surprised about the government funding part
MSmits: not sure that is true, seems unlikely
eulerscheZahl: google time? have fun clearing your history afterwards :D
MSmits: lol
MSmits: good tip
Astrobytes: Not sure it is govt funded from what I've read
Astrobytes: But it's regarded as acceptable
jacek: its nothing. in here government f**k us everytime
Astrobytes: lol jacek
Astrobytes: would be funnier if it wasn't true
AntiSquid: why does this give an error on CG: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/0d379c6b-b52e-4849-bbb5-471dc05f90d1
jacek: hm?
MSmits: eulerscheZahl says it's the goblin
AntiSquid: struct move { }; vector<move> moves; // gives error
AntiSquid: struct Move { }; vector<Move> moves; // works
Astrobytes: the move keyword?
Astrobytes: std::move?
jacek: https://loadingartist.com/comic/out-of-sight/
jacek: AutomatonNN where is struct?
AntiSquid: oh i forgot it exists
AutomatonNN: why?
jacek: AutomatonNN because his gone and he didn't delete account yet
AutomatonNN: eulerscheZahl is there a way to see the code royale bot to start with your submit to stay in the lea
eulerscheZahl: and that's why you don't
using namespace std
Astrobytes: ;)
Astrobytes: LOL
Astrobytes: no mercy for the Automaton
eulerscheZahl: AutomatonNN will be back i fear
eulerscheZahl: takes longer than i thought
jacek: huh
Astrobytes: he kicked NN
eulerscheZahl: nothing to see here
AntiSquid: AutomatonNN was just peacefully protesting
Astrobytes: doesn't he come back after chat reset or something
Astrobytes: Or does he need a restart himself, I don't remember
jacek: Automaton2000 why that frog kicked your brother?
Automaton2000: i see no way to know if my bot is so stupid
eulerscheZahl: we'll find out. i wouldn't be surprised to see it back tomorrow
Astrobytes: better not ban it I guess :P
Scarfield: i think it comes back with chat reset, undyingmaton
AntiSquid: make a chat bot that pings its creator
Astrobytes: Autoscarf o/
Scarfield: autoBytes oi
AntiSquid: zombie chatbot
eulerscheZahl: Autohotkey
Astrobytes: Zombitron9000
Scarfield: make a bot that kicks NN
Astrobytes: Or an NN that kicks bots :thinking:
AntiSquid: he'd have to use his account
eulerscheZahl: give a bot mod rights. and you have a 1% chance to get kicked when you ping it
Astrobytes: hah
eulerscheZahl: oh, astro was faster with that suggestion :o
eulerscheZahl: i've gotten slow
AntiSquid: he also golfed it
jacek: youre getting old
Astrobytes: what multi you working on AntiSquid?
AntiSquid: idk ?
AntiSquid: why?
Astrobytes: Just wondering, since you posted about the move/Move thing
AntiSquid: i opened up ice and fire earlier then went to read a book i downloaded
AntiSquid: then came back and fooling around with dots and boxes
AntiSquid: look my rank improved there
Astrobytes: Ah. I gave up doing anything on ice and fire, tried some stuff for low hanging fruit but I need a rewrite so I gave up
Astrobytes: Just did my first d&b the other day, not written a proper one yet, just enough to get into next league
AntiSquid: didn't do anything on CG for really long
Astrobytes: Same
AntiSquid: trying to avoid a slow start next contest :P
Astrobytes: lol also same
AntiSquid: i should probably look at referee . i am like the "what does the statement say" people in chat when it comes to the referee code
Astrobytes: No need for getting out of wood 2
AntiSquid: no but then i might have to rewrite the structure
Astrobytes: I don't get serious until next league unless it's necessary
AntiSquid: doing this very halfhearted .
Astrobytes: Just sort the available moves by something, prefer certain moves if available, if not use the sorted
Astrobytes: boxes, not moves
Astrobytes: you'll figure it out
AntiSquid: i am writing it, i am just slow
AntiSquid: not import libs here
Astrobytes: import libs?
AntiSquid: import keras
add layer
add layer
Astrobytes: Not using python here either
Astrobytes: Type faster
Astrobytes: :P
AntiSquid: wait, you're distracting me
Astrobytes: :grin:
AntiSquid: Automaton2000 tell him i need to be polite and answer
Automaton2000: thanks for all the other stuff
Astrobytes: haha, well shut up and code then!
AntiSquid: Automaton2000 starting pinging this guy
Automaton2000: i've got the same problem
AntiSquid: let's wait for him outside when he takes the bins out Automaton2000
Automaton2000: i am in the train
AntiSquid: you're done for, automaton is on his way Astrobytes
Astrobytes: (and I'm the distracting one :rolling_eyes: )
Astrobytes: lol
AntiSquid: i think this promotes me
Astrobytes: looks that way yep
AntiSquid: what's the best structure to store the board? any theories ? :p
eulerscheZahl: class Board
Astrobytes: didn't get that far yet, first thought was a graph (edges, vertices style)
AntiSquid: i think next contest will be about hunting toads and dropping them in the witches' cauldron
AntiSquid: ok bad joke, killed chat, Automaton2000
Automaton2000: i'll do it in time
Astrobytes: coding killed my chat, not your joke
FuriousT: what does this mean "angle for the rotation angle in degrees" for the input?
vatsalsharma376: I have some fair experience in competitive programming but I don't know how to start with codingame. Are there any good #resources ?
Astrobytes: Depends on your experience really, there's puzzles, multiplayer bot programming, optimistation, code golf
Astrobytes: *optimisation
magaiti: FuriousT, angle is the variable name, "rotation angle in degrees" is the variable value
magaiti: or rather, variable meaning
magaiti: meaning of the variable value. duh
AntiSquid: don't like the referee implementation for the board on d&b, thinking of how to do a nicer one
AntiSquid: maybe a checkerboard of sorts .
MSmits: AntiSquid do you mean for a sim in your not?
MSmits: bot
MSmits: I can share my board implementation, but not sure you'll like it :P
AntiSquid: for my bot . i only use one representation usually
MSmits: ah ok
AntiSquid: and i think i can do with 1 here
MSmits: well mine is uint64_t hor and uint64_t ver
AntiSquid: A1 R == B1 L is part of what i want to add into the way i access the edges
MSmits: ah I see
AntiSquid: what does that mean MSmits
MSmits: I just have all horizontal lines in one bitboard and all vertical lines in another bitboard
MSmits: both are 64 bit
AntiSquid: oh i get it .
Astrobytes: but what about box edges
MSmits: i didn't know what kind of search i was gonna do so i figured if it is mcts i could keep the board on the node
MSmits: well they are just lines also
MSmits: first vertical line on the left is bit 1
AntiSquid: so you have 2 boards per node ?
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: mind you i never got a search for wood 2. I used this method in my local solver
MSmits: I randomly create endgame boards by placing lines on it until all lines lead to boxes given away
MSmits: wood 1 i mean
MSmits: I did have a whole mcts thing in wood 2
MSmits: including the bitboards... but kinda overkill with that small a board
Astrobytes: I just sorted the boxes and edges by a heuristic lol
MSmits: oh, I solved the whole thing on turn 1 and then my bot just gave up when it was p2
Astrobytes: fk effort for wood 2
MSmits: because 3 -1
MSmits: I'll go back to D&B once I get this AI course done, will be in 2 months o rso
Astrobytes: how's it going?
MSmits: got too distracted by other games. Glad I am done with oware now though, no more seeds. 9 is the limit
AntiSquid: well my board would have 225 places once i implement it, only 112 used though
Astrobytes: lol, not tempted with 10 then
MSmits: going ok, did not get that much done in my vacation week, but got some good videos and animations ready to put in there
Astrobytes: awesome, did you end up using the interactive one?
MSmits: well after all the bugs were fixed, seed 9 DB is done between ply 15-40, 10 db would take twice as long and cause cache issues for the rest of the bot
MSmits: yeah i did
MSmits: i put it as an i-frame
AntiSquid: wait i could use uint128_t is that slower than 2 uint64_t ?
MSmits: had to dust of some archaic html skills
Astrobytes: Ah, yeah given your access time for the db that figures lol
Astrobytes: ah cool
MSmits: AntiSquid that depends on how you use it, if you're gonna access the 64 bit thingies separately all the time then it might cause overhead to do the 128 bit version
MSmits: I used the 128 bit for hypersonic because it made sense there
MSmits: visual studio hates it though
Astrobytes: that's why I never used 128 bit tbh
DomiKo: omg so close to top20 in UTTT
MSmits: gj DomiKo, you did teccles already right?
DomiKo: yes yes
DomiKo: i can't improve performance
MSmits: penalty on selection for moves that give away a free move to opponent?
FuriousT: magaiti . no doubt. However, what I meant is which angle. In any case it matters not as the angle is non-sensical until you actually start moving. My issue was with the angle reading initially.
DomiKo: but I'm tuning some parameters
DomiKo: and testing how some "enchacements" work
MSmits: what enhancements are those? Or is this a trade secret?
Astrobytes: enchantments or enhancements? If you're using magic I wanna know :P
MSmits: I have maybe 2 things I never shared, but most of what i do is common knowledge
magaiti: FuriousT, initially your angle is -1 which means it is not defined. you can start moving in any direction
Astrobytes: (just playing on the spelling mistake :) )
MSmits: yeah it was almost enchantments
magaiti: after that, your pod has a defined arientation
DomiKo: at some point, I don't know what I'm doing
DomiKo: so I can say it could be magic
MSmits: this is mcts though?
DomiKo: yes
MSmits: ah ok
Nerchio: MSmits already knows everythhing about MCTS boring :D
DomiKo: i have to say that I did like 100+ submits
MSmits: I am never bored talking about mcts :)
MSmits: oo did my rank change
DomiKo: and leaderboard in top 11-30 changed a lot
AntiSquid: MCsmiTS
DomiKo: that because amur and Yurkov submited a lot too
Astrobytes: MCTS Bitboards is actually MSmits' name
DomiKo: I moved some guys fromtop11 to top25
DomiKo: some from top30 to to18
MSmits: nice work DomiKo
MSmits: wow amurushkin must have improved his bot a lot
MSmits: well at least a little
AntiSquid: you shuffled the leaderboard .
AntiSquid: if there were continuous games it would readjust itself :P
MSmits: i have to be careful... uttt has some serious power... I get drawn back in :P
Astrobytes: what's the hot multi in #ru these days? I haven't checked for a while
DomiKo: that's my job
DomiKo: shuffling is my second name
MSmits: good luck finding a wife with that
Astrobytes: Mrs Shuffling
DomiKo: :rolling_eyes:
AntiSquid: was a reply to your "moved people in ranks", RPS effect there for sure imo
Astrobytes: Nerchio, how's COIF legend?
AntiSquid: CIF
Astrobytes: that's a cleaning product
AntiSquid: then CIAF
Nerchio: I left it already :D
Astrobytes: CoIaF is what it should be
Nerchio: trying to learn some MCTS in UTTT now
Astrobytes: ah cool
Nerchio: cause last time i tried it was a disaster
MSmits: yeah, that was my first mcts
AntiSquid: i said it from the start i am calling it CIF
MSmits: it's hard to get it right the first time
DomiKo: yes
AntiSquid: what's the best node selection formula ?
MSmits: do you just mean the selection part of mcts?
AntiSquid: yes
MSmits: lemme share mine for oware, they are all similar
Astrobytes: depends on the application, there are variants on plain UCT
AntiSquid: UCB
DomiKo: you can try SHOT
Astrobytes: applied to trees
Astrobytes: UCT
Astrobytes: or SHAT
MSmits: https://pastebin.com/yK08Xa1y
MSmits: oh did you mean the uct formula
MSmits: I just use plain uct with a fitted exploration usually
AntiSquid: upper confidence bound
Astrobytes: applied to trees
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/74cc2de0-8f38-4db7-b53b-d160366d58b3
MSmits: damnit, not even a small functio
MSmits: https://pastebin.com/VsXhFTit
MSmits: this is for a single child node. I pass the statistics of the parent as a parameter
MSmits: invsqrt(x) = 1/sqrt(x)
MSmits: takes a bit of math to work it out, but it's just the normal ucb
MSmits: this is optimized
Astrobytes: and works nicely
MSmits: inline float rsqrt_fast(float x) { return _mm_cvtss_f32(_mm_rsqrt_ss(_mm_set_ss(x))); }
MSmits: use that
AntiSquid: is shat latest trend or what Astrobytes
MSmits: people been :poop: ing since the dawn of history AntiSquid
AntiSquid: ah that thing Jacek linked in chat yesterday?
Astrobytes: Sequential Halving Applied to Trees
Astrobytes: yea
Astrobytes: h
MSmits: oh
MSmits: lemme check that out
Astrobytes: I wasn't satisfied with "We propose to adapt Sequential Halving to
Monte Carlo Tree Search and to name the resulting
algorithm SHOT"
AntiSquid: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/065/LmgY0hm5dUCBnf606pjHrMuoJjRCzCQjV7SuTBq2dGE.jpg
Astrobytes: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01436255/document
AntiSquid: i have it . added it to my google drive for later :P
Astrobytes: ;)
AntiSquid: using google drive so i don't have to move pdf from device to device
AntiSquid: then i can read when i am bored
Astrobytes: yep, sensible
AntiSquid: cool MSmits, do you always use the same formula?
MSmits: lately yeah, I have experimented with different ones on uttt a long time ago
MSmits: never got noticable results, but I have to admit i didnt do it very scientifically
Astrobytes: there's a whole bunch of variations on it
Astrobytes: some require mods to the actual algo
Astrobytes: Can't say I've experimented much
MSmits: the one i like is where you do an evaluation of the children and store that and during selection you prefer this eval on low visits and the statistics become more important than the eval as you visit the node more
MSmits: kind of a mix between minimax and mcts i suppose
MSmits: you just have to tune it right
jacek: progressive bias?
Astrobytes: that's a nice one
MSmits: that could be it yeah, i forgot the name
jacek: just use jacekmax and enjoy being 1st in every game
Astrobytes: "you just have to tune it right" goes without saying for any eval function :P
MSmits: i mean the balance between statistics and eval, on top of tuning the actual eval
MSmits: what was jacekmax again?
jacek: hyperparameter tuning eh
jacek: best-first minimax with uct
MSmits: oh right
MSmits: sounds good
Astrobytes: there's material on it, jacek probably has the paper links
jacek: linked here https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/55004/best-first-minimax-search-with-uct
MSmits: is this shat or shot thing usable for fixed time limits?
MSmits: oh great
Astrobytes: ah yeah, forgot you did that playground
MSmits: thanks jacek
jacek: they claim shot is slightly better than uct with the same time
MSmits: oh btw, I thought i was the only one that use depth 0 ept jacek ?
MSmits: or did someone else also do 0?
Astrobytes: Me
jacek: zerobytes
MSmits: oh and it was bette rfor you too?
Astrobytes: yep
MSmits: ah cool
Astrobytes: I told you to try 0 depth
MSmits: ohh
MSmits: I talk too much about stuff, forget who told me what
Astrobytes: you're just better than me is all
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: you also told me about the custom hash
Astrobytes: yep
MSmits: I should remember better what you say
Astrobytes: As long as I'm around to remind you don't worry :P
MSmits: kk :)
jacek: kkk even
MSmits: :scream_cat:
MSmits: does jacekmax come with a solver?
MSmits: oh i guess it's minimax so its natural?
jacek: its implied
MSmits: right
MSmits: it's so easy to understand
MSmits: i should do an oware version of this
jacek: :scream:
MSmits: it's probably going to suck at first
MSmits: because the parameters arent tuned for this
MSmits: move's eval value + log(move's visits)
MSmits: this is not uct is it?
MSmits: oh final selection nvm
jacek: thats final selection
MSmits: didnt know you meant the move selection for that turn
MSmits: allright got it
MSmits: you also use this in onitama right?
jacek: yes
MSmits: and othello
jacek: yes
jacek: the three big Os and B
MSmits: B?
jacek: bt
MSmits: oh for me B is Bandas
jacek: as its written in the article ~
MSmits: I read like :poop:
Astrobytes: lol
Astrobytes: and ntuples too
MSmits: you didnt compare it with ept did you?.
MSmits: i mean could be your NN is just awesome and it would be even more awesome in oware if you did ept
jacek: not much
MSmits: i had the same experience switching to ept from other algo's
MSmits: it might have similar performance
jacek: it came from the ept. somewhat by accident i overwrote instead of adding and it sticked
AntiSquid: ept?
MSmits: early playout termination
jacek: i bet its just a scaling problem. and tuning
Astrobytes: early playout termination
MSmits: mcts with a short simulation or in my case, no simulation
MSmits: so you backpropagate an eval score
Astrobytes: you eval instead
MSmits: this is like a journalist at a covid press conference, summarizing the prime minister
jacek: the paper i linked use only eval instead of uct
Astrobytes: lol
jacek: but, do you propagate -1, 1 or eval score?
MSmits: i actually did it differently in different games, i barely see much of a difference either way
MSmits: if you do eval score and you scale it down to between --1 and 1, thats the same as scaling up the exploration parameter instead
MSmits: the only thing that makes a real difference is clamping
Astrobytes: I tried the -1,1 and scaled, no difference really
Astrobytes: ffs lol
MSmits: thanks again for that summary
MSmits: I tried clamping, no clamping or a sigmoid
jacek: dunno. for me scaling to -1, 1 was meh. perhaps if NN tells you if something is 0.2 or 0.8 that eval is more accurate
MSmits: scaling is pointless though, the exploration can be scaled as well, so any difference will be fitted away
MSmits: but clamping and sigmoid thingies will change it
Astrobytes: yeah I used tanh in oware I think
MSmits: i checked earlier and it seems like i use nothing
MSmits: no clamping, no sigmoid, just the eval
Astrobytes: I need to get back to that Oware soon
MSmits: it's a bit dangerous as you can get some extreme eval scores throwing off your search
MSmits: but apparently it doesnt hurt my bot (much?)
Astrobytes: I think I tried every method with Oware lol
MSmits: yeah I tried too... but its so hard to test things because of 2 things:
MSmits: 1) RPS
Astrobytes: Yeah but you've got MegaBook Monster Bot
MSmits: 2) huge gap between NN's and the rest
AntiSquid: looking at relu makes me think, just make up your own function and calculate the derivative
Astrobytes: yeah true MSmits
MSmits: well for me the gap is worst, because I am in the middle of it. You can use my bot as a bridge at least, when you test
MSmits: I got nothing
AntiSquid: but book is fixed, NN are supposed to generalize and therefore beat book ... maybe a book for corner cases to aid the NN
MSmits: AntiSquid in my experience most NN's for board games on CG are very deterministic and easily counterbooked
Astrobytes: shh, this will trigger a big Oware discussion
MSmits: jacek's is the exception because he included a random component in his move selection on purpose
AntiSquid: maybe they're overfitted MSmits and therefore work like a book :P
MSmits: but even his book is deterministic if he removes that
MSmits: bot that is
Astrobytes: works great though
MSmits: AntiSquid i dunno if they are overfitted. They work well against all sorts of bots. Overfitting is not the same as being deterministic
MSmits: for example, a bot that always plays the best move is not overfitted but perfectly deterministic
MSmits: most NN's are like that on CG
MSmits: they play very very well, but once in 100 turns they make a mistake
MSmits: and because they are deterministic, i will find it
Astrobytes: MSmits - The Terminator
MSmits: Robo's bot makes a mistake around ply 20 or so, with the moves I make and then he doesn't recover. The only reason I dont always win is that I can't make my book go all the way to turn 200 and my bot will also make mistakes
MSmits: well I can actually... since he is so deterministic, but havent gotten around to that :P
MSmits: jacek keeping me busy
jacek: woah so you can tell at what ply bots make mistake
MSmits: my mcts score will suddenly jump 2 whole points at that node
MSmits: and it never goes down again
MSmits: 2 points being 2 expected seed advantage
MSmits: i cant be 100% sure of course, but once i found that node, my bot went from 10% to 40-50% winrate
MSmits: so i am guessing it's real
Astrobytes: you've had that 'feature' for some time now iirc
MSmits: what do you mean
Astrobytes: figuring out which ply the NNs make a mistake on (or any other player)
MSmits: yeah, but that's mostly because I am crazy enough to manually enter opponent moves into meta mcts and search through those branches
Astrobytes: The 'how' doesn't matter, only the end result :P
MSmits: true
jacek: like analyzing carlsen or karpov games
MSmits: thats really what it's about for me. I mean getting a better rank is fun, but for most of these games its also fun to figure out what moves are good
MSmits: for oware it's mostly about beating the NN's though, I can't make rhyme or reason out of my meta mcts for this game
MSmits: it makes no sense
Astrobytes: I rely on others analyses for that jacek lol
AntiSquid: great data analysis MSmits
MSmits: https://pastebin.com/5HXtdv29
MSmits: here's the nide
MSmits: node
MSmits: Robo's move is 2
MSmits: your move is 5
MSmits: (jacek)
jacek: M?
AntiSquid: i completely forgot what my bots were doing ... can't even figure out what the hell my pacman or xr bot variables stand for :D
MSmits: marked, means my opening book wants an answer to this move
MSmits: the * means it's forcing the search through this move
MSmits: it's forcing through your move
MSmits: (for obvious reasons)
jacek: https://media1.tenor.com/images/1fe6dde8e3b8d0d6dac9de18f5b51d33/tenor.gif?itemid=11666212
MSmits: so your move is -1 on average it says, which means i should win more, but my bot isn't able to capitalize on the advantage most of the time... too many turns left, too good of a NN
MSmits: (mind you this search goes 80 plies deep in some cases, which means still 120 turns left)
MSmits: if you're interested jacek, check out this game:
MSmits: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/493811348 at ply 19, you'll do exactly what my meta mcts says you do
MSmits: this is just the first game i found with me as p1 on the leaderboard, which tells you how common this is
jacek: mhm
MSmits: the thing is your random thingy only happens when moves are close to equally good, that doesnt happen too often
MSmits: but with 200 turns, it does happen often enough
MSmits: rarely your first move as p2 will be in house 11, but usually it's house 7
MSmits: rarely as in, maybe 1 in 20
jacek: hmm
MSmits: you could retrain your bot. Will be interesting to see what changes
MSmits: is it like a 1 hr thing?
MSmits: or does it train for days?
jacek: how can you tell its 1 in 20?
jacek: moves.push_back(getMove(nullptr,game->getCurrentPlayer(),rand()%100<95?7:11));
MSmits: cuz i look up lost games to find more nodes to mark in my tree
MSmits: and almost always it's house 7
MSmits: very rare 5
MSmits: err i mean 11
MSmits: (i think in 0 to 5 for both players)
jacek: actually for 1st move as p2 i use this 'opening' 95% 7 and 5% 11
Astrobytes: the 'other 5'
MSmits: haha
jacek: its neat you could reverse engineer that
MSmits: nice estimate by me then?
Nerchio: btw guys
Astrobytes: impressive
MSmits: it's just by watching so many games jacek
Nerchio: in MCTS when i expand node but have like 50 possible moves
Nerchio: it doesnt kinda make sense to expand all 50 states or is there
MSmits: hmm expanding is a misleading term sometimes Nerchio
jacek: MSmits i can retrain oware overnight, thats 6h-8h.
Nerchio: i mean in UTTT right now
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: Nerchio what i mean is, you select a node right, an unexpanded one
Nerchio: when you can play on any position on the board its up to like 80 positions so why would i create all 80 states for this
MSmits: then you give it children
Nerchio: yeah i talk about giving it children
MSmits: is that what you mean by expanding?
MSmits: ah
MSmits: what do you do for each child?
jacek: i always expands by all available moves. each child will have then 0 score / 0 visits
Nerchio: nothing yet im asking before I implement it
MSmits: i sort of do what jacek says i think
Nerchio: well from what i understand you create a node/state for each child but
Nerchio: you're not going to visit all of them anyway
Nerchio: so whats the point of creatin all of them
MSmits: sometimes i set the visit count to 1 to avoid some division by zero somewhere
MSmits: Nerchio in some games i immediately simulate from each child
MSmits: so i backpropagate 50 simulation results at once
MSmits: not in uttt though, but some other players do
Nerchio: yea so its like looking for a win depth 1
Nerchio: ?
jacek: its implementation detail, you may expand by 1 child or all children. in early days of mcts, memory was constrained so they expanded one child per visit(s)
Astrobytes: ^
Nerchio: i will be coding mcts for uTTT in java i am already constrained :D
jacek: i expand all children also because i look for mate-in-one
MSmits: some games have a fixed number of children
MSmits: like Bandas and Yavalath
MSmits: so what i do is just reserve the memory and do nothign else
MSmits: expansion -> nodindex += 4
MSmits: (for Bandas)
Nerchio: well I guess I will try first with expanding all the children but i will probably try to prune it later in UTTT
Nerchio: seems like a massive waste of time and space:D
MSmits: you have to remember that you will very rarely have those moves that give 50 children
MSmits: most will have on average 7 moves
Nerchio: I guess that's true
jacek: UTTT branching factor is usually < 9
Astrobytes: and it's all bit ops anyway so not gonna be a massive hit
MSmits: expansion is less than 2% of my runtime
MSmits: and i expand all
jacek: rarely you will see more than 9. those will happen in late midgame or endgames with few moves left anyway
Astrobytes: (not that I've done UTTT, I'm slightly allergic)
MSmits: selection and simulation are most expensive
Nerchio: well Astrobytes i don't start with bitboard :D
MSmits: no need to start with bitboard, the trick to learn mcts is to make the sim as simple as possible for you
MSmits: otherwise you have two sources of bugs
Astrobytes: Oh yeah, your first MCTS, my bad
Nerchio: yeah first time i got to bronze but i think i was creating a new state when doing random playouts instead of playing it out on 1 state :D
Astrobytes: yeah, don't do that until it's working
Nerchio: its 2nd MCTS :D
Nerchio: but first was kinda fail
Astrobytes: ah right
MSmits: oh so your first mcts was mostly monte carlo?
Nerchio: no i think it was MCTS with many mistakes :P
MSmits: most people make the mistake of creating the whole tree during the random sim
MSmits: meaning they grow a huge tree very quickly
jacek: struct?
Nerchio: yeah thats what i was doing i think
MSmits: struct did, mad knight did also and i noticed others do it too
MSmits: problem is that you get a working bot that way
Astrobytes: mk did too?
MSmits: its just not very good
MSmits: at first yeah
MSmits: he knows how to do it now
Nerchio: ok so another question i had which you guys probably know the answer for
Astrobytes: I only knew struct did it
MSmits: people pm me sometimes about mcts
Nerchio: when you create a tree and like 50k states
Nerchio: why not save parts of the tree that you go down into next rounds?
Astrobytes: you can
MSmits: i do
Astrobytes: tree reuse
jacek: tree reuse
MSmits: almost always
Nerchio: thats kinda what im thinking i want to do
MSmits: but in some games you create so many nodes it's not feasible
Nerchio: since java is so slow
MSmits: but mostly you can
Astrobytes: just make your start node the one you wish to start from
MSmits: dont do treereuse immediately
MSmits: it complicates things
jacek: focus on the proper mcts. leave the fancy rest for later
MSmits: also tree reuse actually means you make *more* nodes if you use an object pool
MSmits: since you can reset to index 0 of the pool
Nerchio: kk just wanted to know if this 'tree reuse' is something that people use :P
MSmits: you keep moving through the pool
Nerchio: so how many nodes do you guys reach in simulation
Astrobytes: can get hairy really fast
Nerchio: i think i managed to create only 300k for java but will probably use like 10% of that :D
MSmits: depends on the game, but uttt needs 30-40 million for me sometimes
Nerchio: :grin:
MSmits: and i only have 20-25 in my object pool
MSmits: but i often reset for other reasons, so it usually doesnt matter
jacek: huh
MSmits: and i do a check
jacek: i can only do around 100k in second in 1st turn
MSmits: 100k nodes?
jacek: 100k steps. select expand rollout backpropagate
MSmits: oh, i do between 90 and 130k in the second turn at 100 ms
MSmits: of those rollouts as you defined it
MSmits: lemme get a better estimate, i am running a testgame
MSmits: Rollouts: 816384 first turn
MSmits: Rollouts: 92928
MSmits: second turn
Nerchio: I would just like to enter legend in UTTT :D
Nerchio: a few people in java already there so should be possible
MSmits: wait a min jacek... how do you get so few rollouts and rank 8
MSmits: what magic is this
Astrobytes: 20k+ rollouts needed iirc for UTTT legend
MSmits: yeah with no fancy stuff
MSmits: thats in turn 2
MSmits: so around 5x slower than my bot
jacek: hmm but 100k * 7-8 is close to what you have. maybe its difference in counting
MSmits: whats the 7-8?
jacek: and i got into legend with java bot as well
MSmits: a rollout for me is a single move through the tree and a single simulation
jacek: average branching factor in the 7-8 beginniing
MSmits: so i dont sim all children
jacek: hmm but i dont do much fancy stuff, my sim is pretty simple
MSmits: i wonder if it is just different ways of counting or do you also do some jacekmax(gic)
MSmits: no fancy selection, UCT modifications, weighted sims etc?
MSmits: rank 8 is really really good. There's at least 30 people in uttt as obsessed with it as I am in most games. Strong opposition
jacek: well in UCT there is bonus for winning small board and penalty for giving opponent mobility
jacek: + mcts solver of course
MSmits: oh right, well those are good bonuses I guess, gives you +5 or +10 % winrate when everything else is the same
jacek: as for sim, there is mate-in-one checking and more chance for winning small board
Astrobytes: seems smart
DomiKo: 90K on second round wow
DomiKo: i got like 45K right now...
MSmits: 130k sometimes, depends on the cpu
MSmits: re curse says he has 180k
Astrobytes: nice
DomiKo: Karliso then 200K? XD
MSmits: kar liso said near 400k but he counts differently
MSmits: still has way better performance somehow
MSmits: his way of counting woul dget me to 250k or so
Astrobytes: he's still #1?
darkhorse64: karliso does not talk he just gets #1
MSmits: he is yeah
MSmits: also he removed his book I believe
Astrobytes: oh really?
MSmits: so I can no longer wreck him 100% :P
Astrobytes: darkhorse64: he does talk sometimes
darkhorse64: look at his profile. He is #1 in all hisbots or nearly
MSmits: yeah karliso is nice, he's a bit like robo in that he doesn't talk much, but when he does, it's golden
darkhorse64: Then I missed what he says
MSmits: yeah it's getting annoying how he is always slightly stronger than me in every board game :P
Astrobytes: sure he reads more than he talks
MSmits: he sometimes asks very basic questions
MSmits: like nerchio just did
MSmits: totally weird for such a strong player
Nerchio: thanks!
Astrobytes: yeah, that's quite confusing at times
MSmits: hey i am comparing you to the best board game player nerchio :0
Astrobytes: But he doesn't give away his initial approach fully, he might figure out interesting heuristics initially etc
MSmits: he asks how mcts works and such, then he writes a mcts and a week later he is nr 1
MSmits: he opened up a bit later on, at first he said nothing
MSmits: he shares a little bit now
Astrobytes: Oh ok, didn't see him for a bit. My absence, no doubt
MSmits: the thing is that if he didn't have such success, we would have had no problem with him just asking questions
MSmits: but he asks questions, we help him and then he wrecks us :P
MSmits: so now he has to share some too :)
Astrobytes: hehehe, sharing is caring
jacek: friendship is magic
MSmits: for a long time i thought he was daporan messing with us :P
MSmits: but he's not
jacek: daporan?
MSmits: ah, was this before your time jacek?
Astrobytes: No, defo not dapo. I spoke with dapo back when I was diagnosed with my back issues, last time I've seen him
MSmits: he always showed up for contests with prizes, took the win, shared nothing an dleft
MSmits: really strong player
MSmits: also had nr 1 csb for a long time
Astrobytes: actually, if you talked to him he would share stuff
jacek: hmm google search for dapron reveals youtube ai videos
MSmits: yeah he did later when i talked with him sometimes
MSmits: but that's how he is viewed generally
MSmits: he doesnt write post mortems and such
MSmits: yeah i think thats him jacek
Astrobytes: No, he didn't like the hating because he did the hiding thing
MSmits: he did one for mean max
MSmits: he won it with a GA
MSmits: and then made the video
Astrobytes: He's a really nice guy actually
MSmits: Astrobytes yeah the hiding thing didnt help his image
MSmits: he is i guess
MSmits: maybe just misunderstood
Astrobytes: He just didn't like the hating
MSmits: I can see that
MSmits: that stuff happened mostly before i was here, but it echoed a lot after on chat here
Astrobytes: hence 1 less CG player
AntiSquid: no the hiding wasn't the issue lol
MSmits: ah here's a vet that knows
DomiKo: board game's are hard
MSmits: easy to sim, hard to win
DomiKo: because you have to make quick board class
MSmits: a class, whats that?
MSmits: uint64_t board
DomiKo: but making fast random moves
DomiKo: and generating moves
DomiKo: that the really hard part of board games
MSmits: my only class is usually Node{}
MSmits: sometimes i have a State class for a hash table for opening books or something but thats it
MSmits: DomiKo you mean fast sim in general, in uttt it is fast random, but i dont even use random in most games
jacek: well only the uttt is optim fest, other board games could be slower with smart heuristic
DomiKo: that could be true
DomiKo: in UTTT heuristic really don't do that well
DomiKo: or I don't know how to use them :((
jacek: -3vel
codeing: https://people.eecs.ku.edu/~hossein/Teaching/Fa16/810/Readings/UML-diagrams.pdf
MSmits: add the free move thing DomiKo
MSmits: a move that gives the opponent a free move is bad
MSmits: add a penalty to UCT for this move
MSmits: helped me a bunch
codeing: look at this
codeing: https://people.eecs.ku.edu/~hossein/Teaching/Fa16/810/Readings/UML-diagrams.pdf
Astrobytes: You posted it already
codeing: you'd not looked it
Astrobytes: Why would I look at it
codeing: because it's important
Astrobytes: I covered UML in a course a long time ago, why would I look at it
darkhorse64: UML is boring and useless
Astrobytes: ^
codeing: what ?
Astrobytes: Can be useful for a quick sketch on a whiteboard but then so can random squares and circles
codeing: darkhorse64
codeing: how you code a software without uml ?
darkhorse64: Really easily
codeing: i understand, you are not architect
codeing: or something like thaht
codeing: ez
darkhorse64: I have been involved in several multi-million lines of code projects
codeing: and ?
darkhorse64: UML does not help
codeing: what help so ?
codeing: how do you establish the architecture of your software?
codeing: on paper
darkhorse64: Paper cannot capture the dynamics of data nor it can capture all the small details that will make your paper design baly fail
darkhorse64: *badly*
Astrobytes: I only have limited experience but even that taught me that a working model is better than some hopeful diagram
darkhorse64: UML is like a battle plan. After 15 mn, no plan will resist fire
Astrobytes: I wish I could have written that on my exam paper :P
codeing: what your level Astrobytes ?
Astrobytes: level? I'm a biologist. I've done some CS study is all
darkhorse64: My experience is that a good design will look at how data flows. Then, you can model objects, threads
codeing: CS ?
HelloWorld183L: computer science
codeing: in CS, what your level at university ?
Astrobytes: I have a masters in cell biology, not CS, I've just done additional study in CS
codeing: what does biologists do there ?
HelloWorld183L: what programming paradigms would be most useful for a biologist?
codeing: joking
Astrobytes: It's all about data and stats
Astrobytes: When I was doing more biology-related things I left that to the bioinformatics department
Astrobytes: Lots of python and R
codeing: ez
Astrobytes: These days I tick boxes, tell people off and write reports
Astrobytes: codeing: the extra CS study was for my own interest
codeing: no doubt on
Astrobytes: gn all
fdoanay: hello guys
artofwaraabb: hi
ezra555: hi
AntiSquid: hi codeine how's it going?
MACKEYTH: Will games remember your code if you leave and come back?
Harrogin: yes
Harrogin: i always run my code before i leave just to be safe
Dekster: Good Morning Guys
Bahnschrift: phat
LinhT.Nguyen: it's numpy!!
