jacek: good morning
eulerscheZahl: moin
Marchete: moin
DmcPhuc: why people so fucking suck
eulerscheZahl: mind your language
Every-Username-Is-Taken: hey everybody
Every-Username-Is-Taken: Does anyone know where I can find good resources to learn algorithms?
eulerscheZahl: https://cp-algorithms.com/
KiranRandhawa: Morning
Every-Username-Is-Taken: thanks
ash_rick: lauda ki morning hai
KiranRandhawa: Oh crap I pressed submit!
KiranRandhawa: shitty balls
KiranRandhawa: Ah I think I'm still okay
jacek: oO
LinhT.Nguyen: co ae nao on ko
TheSilent_Boy: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1368198fcbf4d2614457aa0df9fe6dc8dec3b02
MSmits: mmh I wonder if I will need to use zobrist now. My endgame solver for D&B is working but it takes 75 seconds to solve 100 endgames. Some really fast, some really slow
TheSilent_Boy: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1368198fcbf4d2614457aa0df9fe6dc8dec3b02
TheSilent_Boy: any one clasher?
MSmits: dont spam C&C invites
MSmits: coc i mean
TheSilent_Boy: ok
TheSilent_Boy: I was just inviting
jrke: silent boy #clash click on this
TheSilent_Boy: not spammoing :)
jrke: whats zobsrist MSmits
MSmits: it's just a way to generate a hash used for transposition tables
MSmits: I am thinking of how to do that for this graph gamestate
MSmits: it will also be the first time I succesfully combine ab with transpositions. I did either of them separately, but not combined. That's a bit complicated
Marchete: what kind of TT?
Marchete: by edges?
MSmits: Yeah I think so
MSmits: I think I might just use the bitboard for it
MSmits: if I have a bitboard-code assigned to each edge, i can remove it when i play the edge
MSmits: should be unique
Marchete: After working with graphs, I maybe revisit some bit based game representation
MSmits: xor that with the score of course
MSmits: what do you mean exactly Marchete
Marchete: using bitboards
MSmits: ahh ok. It works nicely in D&B, but for the endgame solver it was too messy
Marchete: I have mixed feelings about combining score
MSmits: what do you mean combining score?
Marchete: "xor that with the score of course"
MSmits: hmm, i guess i could do unscored states
MSmits: I did that for the wood-2 solver
MSmits: (I solved wood-2)
Marchete: if you can solve any endgame
Marchete: in reality is a difScore
Marchete: it works any direction
MSmits: yeah I guess so
MSmits: but what if you do ab pruning
TheSilent_Boy: hi
MSmits: wont this cause problems? If you cut off the branch early?
MSmits: you never got the exact score
MSmits: just a lower/upperbound
Marchete: why not MCTS? just curious
MSmits: oh the plan is still to use MCTS, assuming I can get this solver to be fast
MSmits: it's supposed to go at the end of the rollout
Marchete: solver of "non simple" endgames?
MSmits: yeah i got it working
MSmits: but it;s still slow
MSmits: lacks some heuristics and has no TT
MSmits: I discovered some new things too
Marchete: what things
MSmits: I thought it was always better to play 1 and 2 chains first
MSmits: but it's not
MSmits: if you have a 3 split and one of them is a 2 chain
MSmits: you can play it first and have 1 extra 1/2 chain to change control
MSmits: or play a different chain on the split and eliminate the 2 chain entirely
MSmits: meaning the parity of control changed
MSmits: that turns the entire game around
Marchete: I don't know any theorem or corollary about 3 way solvers
Marchete: all are 2 way
MSmits: you mean you dont know any theorem using splits/joins ?
Marchete: I only read about effective length of subchains on a chain with a 3-way box
MSmits: I didn't find any either so that checks out
MSmits: but my bot just tries all combinations on splits currently
MSmits: my solver i mean
MSmits: this is why transpositions should help a lot
MSmits: the order often doesnt matter if you have separate splits doing things
Marchete: and border edges must be treated differently
MSmits: they call them "ground" sometimes in the paper
MSmits: basically dead ends right?
Marchete: like A1B and A1L are equivalent
MSmits: oh you mean before the end game?
Marchete: they shouldn't make a different gamestate
Marchete: yes
Marchete: for TT and stuff
MSmits: mmh not sure if thats worth bothering with in a live bot. I would fix that in a meta mcts though
MSmits: you can also do symmetry and such
MSmits: usually very expensive
Marchete: I don't think naive symmetry work here
MSmits: why not?
Marchete: I think graph symmetry (or equivalence) is better
MSmits: true, but that's really really complicated
MSmits: isn't it?
Marchete: yes
Marchete: but an example is what I said
MSmits: I am doing something like that in the end game solver already
MSmits: but mostly from the bitboard
MSmits: i count chains
MSmits: and loops
MSmits: simple isolated ones i mean
MSmits: the order they are played are mostly fixed
Marchete: I'm still testing board representations
MSmits: never play a larger chain before a smaller one and never play a larger loop either
Marchete: I haven't find a one comfortable and fast enough
MSmits: never play a chain of size >= 4 before any loop
MSmits: those things make your solver a lot faster
MSmits: but this only works on simple objects, not on splits
MSmits: so i treat them separately
MSmits: they are not even part of the graph
MSmits: so far the hardest thing was the merging of edges for joins that go below 3 edges (they disappear)
MSmits: so I have a system of edges and joins that deactivate and reactivate as the graph is played
MSmits: as you said, it's not that easy in C++
MSmits: got stuck for many hrs until i figured out that the reconnection of joins needs to be in reverse order, last first
MSmits: for the undo i mean
Marchete: I won't undo
Marchete: too hard
MSmits: hmm because it's mcts?
Marchete: I just go forward, copying all
MSmits: you just reset?
Marchete: yes
MSmits: for minimax you kinda have to
MSmits: can't copy the entire graph every time, or at least, that seems painful
Marchete: it depends if copying the object is faster than undoing it
MSmits: yeah I am not sure actually
MSmits: the object is actually not that big
Marchete: maybe storing each GameState on the MCTS node?
MSmits: I already did that for wood-2
MSmits: it's just two uint64_t for bitboards
Marchete: that could save some CPU time
Marchete: well
MSmits: but that's for mcts
Marchete: my idea of GameState is not that simple
Marchete: so it will be big
MSmits: i know, mine isn't either, for the end game solver
MSmits: it's really two separate searches
Marchete: I need a clear description of what endgame solver is for you
MSmits: ok, so, you play the game until only loony moves are left (every move gives away boxes)
Marchete: I refer endgame as a heuristic solvable game (with degrees <=2)
MSmits: at that point it's an endgame for me
MSmits: usually around ply 55
MSmits: halfway
MSmits: cant be further in than ply 61 or so i think
MSmits: depend son how many border edges were played
MSmits: around 0,3% of those are heuristically solvable
Marchete: so you plan to change to graph mode there, no?
MSmits: the rest needs minimax
MSmits: yes
MSmits: i convert at this point
Marchete: ah, I start with 1 massive chain that can be splitted on each move
Marchete: so the GameState is big
MSmits: by chain you mean a graph with each node 4 connected except borders and corners?
Marchete: chain == floodfill from a box
MSmits: ahh for me a chain is a string of boxes with 2 connections each
Marchete: I need another new chain if I have boxes not in that floodfill
Marchete: well, not a chain tbt
MSmits: right
MSmits: I do this floodfill thing to identify all the simple objects and generate the graph
Marchete: a structure that can be defined as chain later
Marchete: my chain will keep track of boxes by its degrees
MSmits: it sure sounds interesting. Basically, you start from the beginning of the game and I start from the end
Marchete: degrees == edge count
Marchete: yes
Marchete: for me a chain is a loop is minDegree == maxDegree == 2 and not grounded
Marchete: if*
Marchete: for example
MSmits: to find an isolated loop I do
MSmits: uint64_t twoBoxes = ~fullBoxes & ~emptyBoxes & ~xorBoxes & FULL_BOARD;
MSmits: to get all boxes with 2 connections
MSmits: then i check if that covers my simple object and it doesnt have other types of boxes
MSmits: if it doesn't, it's a loop
Marchete: I imagine that's better :D
MSmits: well it depends on how often you do it of course
MSmits: if yours is incremental, it might be better
Marchete: at each turn basically
MSmits: hard to say
MSmits: in my case I have to do the entire process every time i hit an endgame
MSmits: and with multiple rollouts that is a lot
Marchete: I do everytime I create a new chain (I think :) )
MSmits: i guess the solver is the main bottleneck in my case
MSmits: some endgames still take multiple seconds
Marchete: but how it works?
MSmits: well
Marchete: it's not like applying theorems?
MSmits: for simple objects I have some heuristics
MSmits: so for isolated chains, smallest first
MSmits: thats a theorem
MSmits: for isolated loops, smallest first
MSmits: loops before all chains except shorter than 4
MSmits: for complicated objects I just play the edges in any order, as part of the negamax
MSmits: so my choices are:
MSmits: play shortest loop
MSmits: play shortest chain
MSmits: play any complex edge
MSmits: I could add some more I think, did not yet include every theorem
MSmits: but I have to make sure the simple object rules still work in a non-simple endgame
MSmits: for some rules that is obviously true
MSmits: but others.. not so sure
MSmits: for example, you can be 100% sure it's never a good idea to play a longer chain if a shorter one is available, not even if there's tons of other complex stuff around
MSmits: it's just never a good idea
MSmits: same for loops
Marchete: why play shortest loop before a complex one?
Marchete: complex I imagine 3-way ones
MSmits: no
MSmits: thats not what i said
MSmits: a shorter loop for a longer loop, both isolated
MSmits: the complex edges can be played any time, in any order, before any simple ones, or after any simple ones
Marchete: my idea of MCTS was to try to reduce any game to a 2-degree endgame, and get a difScore from there
Marchete: so except "free" moves that I can autoplay
Marchete: that was my future idea
MSmits: my problem with that approach though, is that the 2 degree endgame might happen at ply 100
Marchete: free moves as 2 boxes like: O-O
Marchete: you kno0w
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: always play those
MSmits: or your opponent will
MSmits: costing him nothing
Marchete: in fact I plan to just play it automatically, and add the score
MSmits: yeah, for my wood-2 solver, every turn was actually a whole turn, not a move
Marchete: reduces the deep
Marchete: depth
MSmits: it does
MSmits: did you hear how my wood-2 solver failed to get into wood-2 even when it played perfectly?
Marchete: I find that game more interesting than other board games
MSmits: into wood-1 i mean
Marchete: It's hard to have any opening book
MSmits: i do too, so far
MSmits: hmm, depends on the others
Marchete: and it's more about board representation
Marchete: and what it means
Marchete: not isolated edges
MSmits: if the other players play deterministically, opening books will always work
Marchete: any simple minimax AI using edges won't do sh*t
MSmits: true
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/61301f59-d62b-451d-8f1f-a52cc95daafe
MSmits: you can see the variation in end game solve time
Marchete: nega value = 4 time = 47717230 microseconds
:D
jacek: drum&bass eh?
MSmits: Marchete yeah, many joins and edges in the endgame
MSmits: transpositions hopefully fixes that
MSmits: jacek yes :)
jrke: 7994787 microseconds
jrke: thats huge
jacek: thats only 2.53344924 × 10-7 years
MSmits: it is, but maybe it could be the squareroot of that or something
MSmits: with improvements
Thiesjoo: MSmits, what bot do you have online now?
MSmits: hi Thiesjoo, a random bot with some heuristics for capturing boxes
MSmits: it plays poorly in the endgame
jrke: what will be future bot ?
MSmits: just grabs whatever box it can
Thiesjoo: Ah okay, that's why i'm beating it
MSmits: yes :)
Thiesjoo: :)
MSmits: grats by the way, well done
Thiesjoo: Thanks!
Marchete: my bot is a boost for yours, 100% winrate, 100% of the time
MSmits: I showed the game to Thiesjoo in class and 2 days later he has a bot in wood 1
MSmits: Marchete nice :)
DomiKo: that's cool
jacek: hes your student? and hes above you?
jrke: domiko you have some timeouts i think
MSmits: yes jacek :P
Thiesjoo: Yup
inoryy: wow
jrke: who is your student ms?
MSmits: Thiesjoo
DomiKo: jrke that could be true
inoryy: so tell us what is MSmits like as a teacher
MSmits: should I go offfline for this :P
Thiesjoo: Maybe :)
DomiKo: :joy:
jrke: :smiley:
Thiesjoo: Jk, he's a good teacher. Good at explaing complex subjects
MSmits: thanks
inoryy: :)
Thiesjoo: Don't have him for a lot of subjects this year :( Kinda miss him
MSmits: I mostly taught Thiesjoo physics though, only just started CS with him
MSmits: he has a different physics teacher this year
inoryy: oh, you teach CS as well now?
MSmits: yeah, last year to, only 4 classes a week though
MSmits: I still teach physics more
MSmits: I am studying for CS teaching degree
inoryy: ah actually I now vaguely remember you telling about that
MSmits: should be done at the end of the schoolyear
inoryy: nice
MSmits: it's fun. Currently I am teaching some of the "softer" CS subjects, that's new for me
MSmits: so far it's all been programming
inoryy: TAing was probably the hardest thing I did in life :D
MSmits: TA?
Thiesjoo: When are we learning x86 assembely? :)
MSmits: lol, that is actually an optional CS domain Thiesjoo, we don't teach that unfortunately
Thiesjoo: :(
inoryy: teaching assistant, like hold seminars and practicals in tandem with prof's lectures
Thiesjoo: Are we going to learn some programming this year?
inoryy: which ended up having to duplicate lectures since half the class skips lectures...
MSmits: Thiesjoo plenty, but not at first
MSmits: we do human computer interaction, app development ( I guess some programming there) then after that it's mostly AI
MSmits: inoryy that is annoying
Thiesjoo: But app development is in app inventor correct?
MSmits: I think so yes: https://appinventor.mit.edu/
MSmits: we do that for a few weeks
jrke: my psychic's is also good :)
MSmits: all new for me as well
MSmits: jrke you read minds?
jrke: i read future ;)
MSmits: Thiesjoo have you worked with app inventor?
Thiesjoo: Yup, in 4vwo I used it to make an app for NLT
DomiKo: jrke thanks i had boardSize=2 not 7 in one place
MSmits: what did you think of it?
Thiesjoo: The programming part is just scratch so that was boring
jrke: :)
Thiesjoo: But I think it's good for beginners
MSmits: ah you mean it looks like scratch?
Thiesjoo: Yup
MSmits: there are several graphical languages
MSmits: they all look sort of the same
jrke: 3 ongoing submission in D&B
MSmits: often you can directly code JS or python
MSmits: because the graphical stuff is translated to that
MSmits: perhaps there is a possibility for you to do that
Thiesjoo: We'll see
eulerscheZahl: "there are several graphical languages
they all look sort of the same"
nope: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Piet
MSmits: hi euler :)
eulerscheZahl: hi
Thiesjoo: WOW, that looks cool
MSmits: I was more referring to this: https://makecode.microbit.org/
jrke: bye euler im going :stuck_out_tongue:
Thiesjoo: Oh microbit's. Those were fun
MSmits: Did you do microbit in 2nd/3rd year Thiesjoo?
Thiesjoo: Yes
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: a colleague asked me to write a prime number calculator in make code
MSmits: was pretty easy, took me 10 minutes.
jacek: i would only do even prime numbers
MSmits: nice :)
eulerscheZahl: we have a prime puzzle here on CG too (shameless advertising)
jacek: the other half of work should be done by someone else
MSmits: i will remember that one jacek
jacek: :3
MSmits: allright, down to 12,5 seconds from 75 seconds, nice improvement :)
MSmits: I added the simple game solver into my negamax to calculate the rest of the game as soon as all the complex edges are gone
MSmits: only disconnected and reconnected 123 million edges instead of 500 million now :)
MSmits: slowest game still takes 6 seconds though
TheSilent_Boy: Any one who plays Clash of Clans here?
MSmits: I think maybe google messed up on you
MSmits: we only have clash of code
TheSilent_Boy: Man!
TheSilent_Boy: I'm talking about clash of clans
TheSilent_Boy: the insane game
MSmits: ahh
MSmits: mostly coders here on chat
jacek: https://www.reddit.com/r/itrunsdoom/comments/in6qlw/a_digital_pregnancy_test_almost_runs_doom/
TheSilent_Boy: hi
Illedan: eulerscheZahl, do you have the link to your python post about downloading replays? Don't remember where you put that thing
RigidStudios: Just made a 59 character time to minute reducer in JS, proud of myself i guess
TheSilent_Boy: hi
sHlOk: Hello
eulerscheZahl: illedan go to my profile -> playgrounds
eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/playgrounds/53705/contest-tools-and-workflow/introduction
TheSilent_Boy: heelloo
jacek: ohai
TheSilent_Boy: kaise ho
TheSilent_Boy: sab theek?
TheSilent_Boy: aur kya chal rha hai
eulerscheZahl: speak English or switch chats please
TheSilent_Boy: :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
TheSilent_Boy: I was just joking..
TheSilent_Boy: By the way...it's Hindi
eulerscheZahl: i know.
well, google translate does
TheSilent_Boy: :joy:
TheSilent_Boy: sure
TheSilent_Boy: wanna be friends?
eulerscheZahl: i'll back-follow when you got some great contest results ;)
Thiesjoo: What is a great result?
TheSilent_Boy: yeah!
eulerscheZahl: beat your CS teacher
Thiesjoo: :(
TheSilent_Boy: Hmm..
TheSilent_Boy: I have done so
Thiesjoo: I am currently beating him in dots and boxes :)
TheSilent_Boy: you won't beleive but it's true
TheSilent_Boy: I'm in class 10th
TheSilent_Boy: and my computer techer is better in web development
TheSilent_Boy: than in
TheSilent_Boy: programming
TheSilent_Boy: and that;s why
eulerscheZahl: wasn't referring to your teacher TheSilent_Boy but to smits
TheSilent_Boy: ?
Thiesjoo: Smits is my cs teacher
TheSilent_Boy: Ooo
TheSilent_Boy: :grin:
eulerscheZahl: smits usually needs a week or 2 to get his bot ready
Thiesjoo: Yes he told me
TheSilent_Boy: :nerd:
eulerscheZahl: but then he beats me hard. at least on board games
TheSilent_Boy: Sounds amazing
TheSilent_Boy: :grin:
TheSilent_Boy: well
eulerscheZahl: in contests me vs him is approx 50-50
TheSilent_Boy: i'm a passionate of automations
jacek: he says he needs 2 weeks so he can search github for complete solution
TheSilent_Boy: :grin:
wlesavo: jacek searching in his own private rep? :smiley:
TheSilent_Boy: achha to hum chalte hai....
TheSilent_Boy: और भई लोग क्या चल रहा है?
psychopath: Hi everybody
I'm using Windows 10 and python 3.7 and try to install a package called pie-extended with pip install pie-extended, but it fails building wheels for lxml which is a required package for pie-extended (given that lxml 4.5.2 is correctely installed on my computer but pie-extended requires 4.2.1). I should install libxml2 and libxslt but I don't manage to. Any idea?
psychopath: Bonjour tout le monde. Je suis sous Windows 10 et python 3.7 et j'essaye d'installer le package pie-extended via la commande pip install pie-extended, mais ça ne marche pas au moment de construire les dépendances de lxml, sachant que lxml 4.5.2 est installé correctement sur mon PC mais que pie-extended requiert la version 4.2.1. Je devrais installer libxml2 et libxslt mais je n'y parviens pas sous windows. Une idée?
eulerscheZahl: you could create a virtual env and install it there with the version of libxml that you need
psychopath: seems great! But idk how to do?
eulerscheZahl: let's try the first suggestion from google ;)
https://www.liquidweb.com/kb/how-to-setup-a-python-virtual-environment-on-windows-10/
Aravindhsiva: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/13685123e5dabf498b09141bccae7cb295069be
Aravindhsiva: Anyone can join
eulerscheZahl: share this kind of link on #clash
starmaq: I really hate the fact that I'm good with clash of code with a language that I'm not willing to continue my life using
Aravindhsiva: #clash
https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/13685327b975b93035529fe503603433d9f478b
Aravindhsiva: Anyone Can Join
norbi97: i mean he tried
eulerscheZahl: i see the effort
starmaq: he has the the spirit
MSmits: yay... 200 endgames in less than a second now, but my slowest of those 200 still takes 390 ms... gettin there
kevin1_1andrew: hi
MSmits: hi
Thiesjoo: And which algorithm are you currently using?
Thiesjoo: Minimax?
jacek: *yawn*
MSmits: Thiesjoo yeah
MSmits: well negamax, but thats the same
Thiesjoo: Cool, still need to work on my minimax implementation
Thiesjoo: It is very, very, very slow
jacek: no wonder, its javascript :v
MSmits: If you really want to get into D&B you need to read some scientific papers
Thiesjoo: Already found a few to read
Thiesjoo: Very interesting!
MSmits: oh right, js is definitely not optimal
Thiesjoo: That's also true
MSmits: if you don't know c++ at all, you might consider learning Rust
MSmits: same speed but more coder-friendly
MSmits: as i understand
Thiesjoo: Seems cool
Thiesjoo: Will look into it
jacek: you recommend rust!? i thought you were my brother
Thiesjoo: :joy:
MSmits: well c++ is horrible, I only use it cuz I know C# and the syntax was similar... and of course it is fast
Aravindhsiva: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/1368567ec71a5b4d92d06551fd45e166704a908
Aravindhsiva: anyone
jacek: so clashy
starmaq: I was interested in both C++ and C because they're really interesting languages
starmaq: especially the notion of pointers
starmaq: and I guess C++ is just a "more features" version of C
starmaq: with slight changes in previous features
starmaq: lots of big softwares (might even say almost all of the ones I know) use C++, not sure why that choice
jacek: i onlu use c++ for performance, in here. havent use C/C++ in work ever
starmaq: yeh I guess they're the fastest languages
fabulus: whitelegend?
jacek: :question:
Elysweyr: https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/541492d19c9f37716191ac508f17ae55ae57
check out my contribution, pls :)
Whitelegend: yes ?
S_viper: hi'
Azenthin: wow cool website
jacek: which website
DomiKo: I guess this one
Azenthin: codingame?
Azenthin: xD
DomiKo: yea it's really cool
Azenthin: ohyeah forgot where programmers, i could be talking about anything at this point LOL
Azenthin: yall think its good for biginners?
Azenthin: oof english
jacek: eeyup
starmaq: I wish it was more lively
Azenthin: do you know how long its been up?
Azenthin: ugh doing a easy test, and i dont understand anything
jacek: few years at least
Uljahn: 6+ years
jacek: well theres gonna be contest in mid november
jacek: so its gonna be more lively
jacek: but this is just chat. more stuff happening on discord
Azenthin: i mean, its clear to me that they dont invest that much in there social media
Azenthin: wouldnt say its a small community but i think it could be very populare is what im trying to say :P
Zenoscave: Nearly top 50 in GitC! Turns out my bombing dists were off by one...
Morbid: :grimacing:
EldonMcGuinness: Wow, forgot all about this site, fun times and man am I rusty
Azenthin: so you guys are on discord?
jacek: not all
Azenthin: ah ok
jacek: rusty? then youre gonna like it here :v
Azenthin: well im not rusty, you need to have been good in the first place to be rusty xD
Azenthin: any one know what this is while True:
for i in range(8):
Azenthin: nvm found the hint menue lul
jacek: its a loop :o
Azenthin: yeah xD
Azenthin: O.O i think i understand xD
jacek: :tada:
maxmanusv1: yo
PrivateBrocolli_1e72: hi everyone
Avizka: Hi everyone:grin:
77Dev: hi
kxnn: is it normal to struggle
stanleyipkiss: hell yea
Ashen_024: how to approve someone's contribution?
Ashen_024: or is that a mod only thing?
jrke: no
jrke: you can approve a clash if you have played 50l+ clashes and for puzzle you need level 20+
Furze687: hello everyone
KiranRandhawa: Morning
