ADMAAVADMAAVYT: hi
brand: hows it going
kaz-png: good
FrancoisB: great!
jacek: good morning
kovi: morning
BrokenGiant_95fb: hello
BrokenGiant_95fb: anyone here develop app using asp.net core?
Tuanas: simp
Tuanas: simp.exe
jacek: :thinking:
ParallaxWave: 8D
MSmits: 2 more and you got string theory
jacek: :?:
MSmits: jacek sry, lemme add some more context on that
MSmits: 8 + 2 = 10
jacek: :drum:
kovi: night changes +3position uttt, -5 bt
MSmits: nice job on uttt
jacek: not so nice on bt
kovi: i didnt submit at all!
MSmits: I'm also working on uttt, new bot
kovi: 5-10 is pretty close in both
MSmits: but did you submit on bt?
kovi: no
MSmits: mmh ok
kovi: jacek made it very close. and pamp pushed me to back
jacek: huh? i see youre submiting now
kovi: ofc. after i got back of the pack
kovi: also i had ideas, which were mostly failed
kovi: i was thinking that in bt with early termination it would be better to not reuse tree or at least clear scores
kovi: but that made it worse
jacek: youre not using solver yet?
kovi: i think i do
jacek: at least based on your output, at the end youre doing gazillion sims with score like 0.00001
kovi: what i display is rate. last number is winner (-2=not fixed)
jacek: ah
kovi: (and yeah, i still run mcts even if winner is found from root)
MSmits: yeah, heat up those server farms
kovi: msmits you do mcts on bt with ept
any thoughts on no tree reuse/weaking of previous scores?
MSmits: i just reuse the tree
MSmits: keep the scores
MSmits: unless my node pool runs out, then i just reset it
jacek: yeah, no point on clearing
jacek: even if youre previous sims were misguided, current ones could be too. but at least you have some warm start now
MSmits: if you got to some depth, the only score that was added to the node there, were from even deeper nodes. So if this node becomes the root, it's basically just a headstart
kovi: yeah, make sense it slowly changes to the right direction
MSmits: the only thing that might be in favor of resetting is cache misses
MSmits: your nodes might be spread out in memory due to dead branches being in between
jacek: hmm maybe i should add tree reuse in bt :thinking:
MSmits: the more branching a game has, the less useful it is
MSmits: if you havent added it in oware, you really should, but i think you have
jacek: yes
jacek: bt has relatvely high bf
kovi: interesting msmits
than tree compression would make sense (keeping score)
MSmits: well it would if it wasnt so expensive to actually compress a tree
kovi: i dont think it is
MSmits: might take several milliseconds and be worse than just resetting the tree I think. But worth a try I guess
kovi: at least it is cheaper than no-reuse building the whole from scratch and no scores
MSmits: it's basically copying maybe 50 megabytes of data spread out over 600 megabytes
MSmits: in little chunks
kovi: but if you do it in each turn it is not 600mb
MSmits: true, but still a lot
MSmits: if i do 100k rollouts and i expand 40 bytes worth of node * Nchildren with 10 children i get 40 megabytes of new data
MSmits: i doubt it would be worth it
kovi: yeah, i guess you copy 10mb from 50mb
kovi: (just checked and i have similar numbers)
MSmits: it's worth it when you're trying to solve locally and have memory constraints
kovi: good point
jacek: do you still run c4 solver?
MSmits: solving using mcts solver is very memory intensive
MSmits: yeah, when i am not at the computer, sec
jacek: the suspence is killing me
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/3fc9677f-7610-4112-8ba9-412735877b02
MSmits: 3 is only going up
MSmits: 0 and 1 might both be draws hard to say, or neither one of them is
MSmits: i changed my bot to start with 1
MSmits: and it doesnt steal 0
kovi: hmm, copying is especially cheap with array-node-childblock...
MSmits: true, you dont copy per child, you copy per set of children
MSmits: btw, you also need to update your parent references
MSmits: i have a "childindex"
kovi: true
kovi: same yeah
MSmits: some people use a pointer for this
MSmits: but I am obsessed with makign my nodes small
kovi: we use array indexing at work
MSmits: it's 32 bit vs 64 bit
MSmits: my node is only 16 byte currently
MSmits: so 128 bit
MSmits: in uttt that is
MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/8262bb79-f359-4924-9fe9-4836808bd8fa
kovi: wow, that is nice. 128bit game state?
MSmits: no, the game state is not on there at all
MSmits: it's just a boardindex and a move index
BhavYea: hellooo
kovi: oh ok, i pack all together
MSmits: you have the gamestate on the node?
kovi: yes
MSmits: so thats 10 integers on every node?
kovi: yes
MSmits: thats expensive to do
MSmits: memory wise anyway
MSmits: what i do is, i apply the moves during selection, but very simple, just
MSmits: inline void ApplyMove(int player)
{
boards16[player][boardIndex] |= 1 << moveIndex;
}
kovi: i see
MSmits: i dont check for wins and all that
kovi: for bt/uttt that make sense
kovi: for bandas that would not work
MSmits: in bt i do keep the state on the node
MSmits: in bandas i do also
MSmits: most games actually
MSmits: but most board games have a 128 bit or even 64 bit gamestate
MSmits: uttt can theoretically fit into 128 bit but it takes extreme compression, more likely it's 192 bit or more
kovi: yeah it is easier to reproduce than decompress
MSmits: I have my oware and onitama in 64 bit. Pretty sure noone else does this. I did some weird stuff to achieve this
MSmits: not sure it's worth it
jacek: *spoiler alert* its not :v
MSmits: probably not :)
MSmits: but my nodes are small
kovi: i dont think either. 40 or 48 byte
kovi: but for uttt it may make sense
MSmits: for oware i have 5 bit per house, adds up to 60 bit, but a house may have more than 31 seeds, but because there can only be 1 house with more than 31 seeds, i store the overflow of seeds in the leftover 4 bit :)
kovi: :)
(even if i dont know oware at all)
MSmits: it's 12 pits, each have seeds in them, simpest gamestate I know
MSmits: simpler than uttt
kovi: im having motivational problems after reaching top10
MSmits: yeah, i did too and moved on, but i keep coming back after a few months
MSmits: if you do what is fun, you'll be back eventually, nor not
MSmits: or
kovi: for a multiplayer which already runs for years
jacek: chess?
kovi: hard to tell what amount of additional work is needed
kovi: for chess it could be infinite. looking at the literature
kovi: at least in cg it is new
kovi: i guess being new and having community focus raises motivation level
MSmits: yeah
jacek: 5% focus
kovi: :)
MSmits: also a game being on CG for years doesnt necessarily mean people spent years on it. For uttt this is true, but for most other games it will not be. People spend at most a few weeks and then dont look back, with some rare exceptions
jacek: :soccer: :/
kovi: paper soccer is relatively new isnt it?
jacek: it came at the same time bt did
MSmits: not that new. Over a year for sure
MSmits: there's nothing wrong with the game, it just never got popular
MSmits: just like twixt
MSmits: eric made both twixt and dots, for some reason dots and boxes got popular
kovi: that is new for me
i have only concentrated on cg contests up to now
jacek: well its rather obscure. i played it at school on real paper
jacek: as twixtpp is probably popular in france and nowhere else
MSmits: ah I see
kovi: yeah, we did d&b and car racing
ngdangtu: Do you guy know what is Tests Cases Relevancy?
jacek: do test cases cover most cases and the edge cases
kovi: msmits are you using mcts on d&b?
MSmits: no, I have no traditional search on D&B. It's a weird game
MSmits: after halfway through the game. The game is solvable
MSmits: i use a complicated 1590 line solver for that part, but it's not so important
MSmits: the 10 plies before that i use nimstring analysis
MSmits: that's everything
MSmits: when i came up with it, i was nr 1
MSmits: then mikkla did it better
MSmits: first 40 or so plies it's just random moves
MSmits: mikkla said he just picks the first move (which imho is worse than random)
kovi: that is why im thinking about mcts
MSmits: well you could do a mcts with a short nimstring analysis at the end, i've thought about it
kovi: with ept...and i would add my depth0 assessment in the end
MSmits: but without the math, it's hopeless
kovi: i dont even know what is nimstring...just parity
MSmits: it's mostly parity yes
MSmits: but has a lot of rules in D&B
MSmits: basically, you turn the entire game around with one well, or wrongly placed line
kovi: true
MSmits: i spent more time reading papers on D&B than any other game combined
MSmits: and there arent even that many papers on D&B
MSmits: i just read them many times :P
jacek: please no spoilers
MSmits: it's because you really *need* the math, as opposed to most other games
MSmits: lol
MSmits: i wont, dont worry :)
kovi: that is the problem with these simple games
MSmits: what is?
kovi: that they have been already researched
MSmits: hmm well, I had to think of a lot of new rules for my D&B solver
MSmits: they were not in the papers
MSmits: the nimstring stuff was though
MSmits: uttt is poorly researched as well
MSmits: also CG often has somewhat different variations of the real game that have a real effect
MSmits: like time limits
kovi: i agree
jacek: most games have time limit *.*
MSmits: oware has a different best move soemtimes, depending on how close to the end you are
kovi: and code limit to prevent heavy books/nn
MSmits: it only works to prevent endgame books though
MSmits: nns get enough space
MSmits: and i never had an opening book over 10kb
MSmits: even running one for months
kovi: well...for std chess that would not be enough
MSmits: the thing is, it's easy to get a large opening book, it's not easy for them to be good moves
MSmits: good moves require tons of calculation time
MSmits: that's the real bottleneck
MSmits: not codesize
jacek: its easy. just be google
MSmits: my oware book is currently probably 4 kb if i properly compressed it
MSmits: it is based on 8.5 million games
MSmits: months of runtime on a single core
MSmits: still losing half my games vs jacek as player 1 btw :P
jacek: my bt bot is based on 3.8 mills games now. 2.5 days. use your resources efficiently
MSmits: sure, but they are not all good games :)
MSmits: my games are played by my bot, not semi-randomly
Rocky[K.G.F.]: hii to all
MSmits: hi Rocky[K.G.F.]
karliso: why is codesize not a problem for nns?
MSmits: it is a problem, it's not prohibiting though, for these simple boardgames. Iam just going by what the NN-ers told
MSmits: did not try it myself
MSmits: for a more complex game it could be a bigger problem
Rocky[K.G.F.]: hi UIjahn
jacek: i could use a bigger NN
jacek: but i can't :(
jacek: dat grammar
kovi: yeah instead of 4x4 conv, use 8x8 direct solver :)
zalnaRs: b b b
YSF8: i have a question
YSF8: i am currently trying to code in a game and it says i need to win to go to the next level
YSF8: but i keep winning and staying the the same area and loose rank for some reason i was 4 and know 23k
YSF8: what is the reasoning
MadKnight: u have to submit and have it win the boss
YSF8: how do i submit
YSF8: i can play my code
YSF8: and i win the boss al the time
YSF8: all*
YSF8: Game Summary:
YSF8 rank: 1
Boss 4 rank: 2
End reached
jacek: test in arena, not play my code
geppoz: puzzle of the week "Encounter surface" solved using only sum and products... not a single division nor any goniometric function or segment intersections
geppoz: there is any extra prize? :D
jacek: now solve the previous puzzle of the week
geppoz: the previous was not a puzzle ;)
JockTalk: gold
MasterCoderxD: yo
komple1: hio
komple1: :apple:
MohamedElhakim: hello guys,searching for remote backend developer C#,Any help?
jrke: is there any link for the referee of great escape
jrke: ?
MSmits: I think it's on the forum somewhere
jrke: forum not opening :thinking:
257832: jrke: https://github.com/eulerscheZahl/RefereeCollection/tree/master/TheGreatEscape
jrke: oh thankds
jrke: thanks*
kovi: is it just me or bandas strongly favors p1?
MSmits: I think it does, but it also favors whomever received the best position through random generation
MSmits: this is why re curse hates it. If you can get past this, it's a fun game to code a bot for
kovi: you mean there is no heuristic to catch a winner/saver move?
MSmits: not sure what you mean
kovi: other than being lucky and find it early
MSmits: people play this game the way they do UTTT, mostly through random rollouts
kovi: yeah, i meant that.
and now i see the importance of book
MSmits: it shortens the rollout
kovi: giving 3-4 plies more
kovi: yeah
MSmits: but you can get to top 10 without it
MSmits: I think maybe 3-4 people use an endgame book
MSmits: karliso, nagrarok and I. Maybe one more I missed
kovi: maybe my rolloutcnt is low. i can only get 15-20
MSmits: what do you mean 15-20?
kishor_max: how to submit?
submit button is not working'
jrke: click on bottom right button
MSmits: Test in Arena?
kishor_max: in clash of codes
kishor_max: right bottom button is not working
MSmits: kovi, let me do some tests so i can tell you rolloutcount
reCurse: kovi: I warned you, games almost always start extremely favored for one player :p
MSmits: yeah but thats not that bad really. All that does is make the top 10 less reliable. You can have fun writing a bot, get into top 10 and then not worry about whether you're really rank 8 or 3
MSmits: then just move on
reCurse: Not sure which language you're speaking right now
reCurse: Is it Dutch?
MSmits: lol, sometimes I reply to you, but it's really meant for everyone else :P
reCurse: :(
MSmits: just letting them know you can have fun with imperfect games :)
reCurse: Forever outlier
MSmits: whats that
reCurse: 5% of 5%
MSmits: that's you I think
MSmits: well me too, but for different reasons maybe
jrke: i just discovered bandas is also interesting lol
MSmits: kovi rollout count close to 50k * 4 sims per expansion. So 200k random playouts from 50k parent nodes
MSmits: a little below that
MSmits: in round 2
MSmits: but this is with endgame book, i might get a small increase from cutting playouts short. Or the conditional check + lookup might cost too, i dunno
reCurse: Endgame book for bandas?!
MSmits: yeah
reCurse: Why?
MSmits: I look up every state with 12 or less squares
MSmits: makes random rollouts better
MSmits: more exact
MSmits: and shorter
MSmits: i solve much sooner, it's why i am ranked 3 on average and not 10
reCurse: I didn't think it mattered since game is so skewed in your favor (or not)
MSmits: it matters less on average because of that, but this favor thing cancels out over many games
reCurse: And since there's no pairing, your ranking is even more dependent on which side you got
reCurse: So your improvement gets entirely drowned out
MSmits: yes, so the margin is smaller
MSmits: it doesnt, i tested it
MSmits: it's pretty significant
reCurse: Hmm
reCurse: Maybe your eval is bad then? :P
MSmits: what eval
MSmits: i do it uttt-style
reCurse: Oh random rollouts
MSmits: i simply cut short the random rollout
MSmits: it's like using a lookup for the last uttt board
MSmits: the last miniboard
MSmits: btw, this works fine, but no matter how hard I try, i can't seem to figure out how to do 2 miniboard lookup. Just too many states
MSmits: can maybe do it locally, but definitely not in a live bot
kovi: sorry was afk
15-20 is leadeboard positions
im below 100k rollouts, so need to work on that
MSmits: ahh ok
ADMAAVADMAAVYT: can someone help me please i am new to the program
KiwiTae: ADMAAVADMAAVYT welcome what do you need
ADMAAVADMAAVYT: i would like like a tutoril like a vidieo is there something like that on this?
ADMAAVADMAAVYT: also can u use this websit to code a game?
Wontonimo: @ADMAAVADMAAVYT there are no video tutorials that I know of. You can check out the live streams
AntiSquid: there are some video tutorials
AntiSquid: what tutorial are you looking for capsman ?
Wontonimo: You can make contributions on this site, like a clash-of-code, or a bot competition. It isn't a stand-alone game that you could put on an app store
Wontonimo: I didn't now about the videos, sorry. There is definitely a lot of learning material here https://www.codingame.com/learn
AntiSquid: capsman ? ADMAAVADMAAVYT
jacek: this site is not for complete beginner who doesn't know how to code at all. no total beginner tutorials here
AntiSquid: nonsense, AutomatonNN and Automaton2000 both started here and look at their level progress
Automaton2000: i haven't even started yet
AutomatonNN: why do you think that it is a good one?
AntiSquid: damn bots berating me ...
jacek: AutomatonNN where is frog
AutomatonNN: no zigo
AntiSquid: Zigo
Zigo: Is and Uber Cool Guy, He Pwns everyone and Katelyins seem attracted to him. He Owns the internets and is uber.
He is also the pwnage of Byond.
AntiSquid: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Zigo
jacek: mhm
AntiSquid: i thought it's funny someone nicknamed himself zigo and posted that on urban dictionary, that's all
AntiSquid: Zigo Leader Stroller Bike : http://www.myzigo.com/
Waffle3z: p`factor`.count(' ')==2 ?????? what is going on here
Waffle3z: what is `factor`
OnceAndFutureKing: repr() in python2
Teddy.py: print all prime factors
Waffle3z: where is `factor` documented, why does it specifically get the next thing out of stdin, convert it to a number, and get the number's factors, how is that specific behavior built into the language
Waffle3z: and what's that notation
OnceAndFutureKing: https://portingguide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/syntax.html#backticks
Waffle3z: it's ruby
OnceAndFutureKing: hah, that explains why it sounds weird
Teddy.py: and in bash also work
breadward: the back ticks in ruby call a system command if I understand correctly, in this case it's running the bash 'factor'
Teddy.py: oh that makes sense
breadward: if I'm understanding correctly lol, just learned about from a challenge on here yesterday
Teddy.py: : p
OnceAndFutureKing: that's actually genius XD
breadward: right?! now I need to brush up on bash
Teddy.py: :p
jacek: or hash
Teddy.py: oO
jacek: Oo
KiwiTae: im from taiwan hash :D
jacek: huh
KiwiTae: http://taiwanhash.com/ just sharing
jacek: oh my
YurkovAS: jacek "opening move" in onitama mean you use open book?
jacek: its just my trolling
YurkovAS: onitama more easy than d&b and othello
jacek: there are over 100k combinations in onitama in the beginning
YurkovAS: jacek n-tuples for othello is NN (network) and need train this network in offline? i'm read and don't understand anything.
jacek: yes
YurkovAS: thanks
jacek: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.108.5111&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Westicles: I'm down to the crappy puzzles. CYK algorithm, smh
ADMAAVADMAAVYT: ok
taha-lyousfi: hi guys
taha-lyousfi: does anyone have some advice for me to start competetive programming
MSmits: seems pretty broad subject.
MSmits: There are speed-programming challenges. Those are very different from the bot coding we do here
MSmits: the botcoding we do is more relaxed. Even contests give you 10 days generally. If you're not too busy with work or family stuff, it should be enogu
MSmits: enough
MSmits: but in any case, the advice is practice
AntiSquid: taha-lyousfi yes
nunu2021: hi all, i am soooooo excited to start!
Sky_Rhett: where do i start programming as a high school student who knows nothyingf
nunu2021: omg, im also a highschooler, but i do have some cs experience
nunu2021: i would say learn one language a little bit, then practice the language on this site
LuaCultist: I too am a highschooler! I would say start on a project you think you would enjoy making
LuaCultist: You'll learn as you go
LuaCultist: Make sure to know the basics of the languages/frameworks you will use first or it'll not end up too well
ADMAAVADMAAVYT: hi
