ThayHaiDepZaiVaDeThuongQuaDiAk: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/151087895c8a408761aec0661acc2adcc7a8b6d
YusufEmad04: fuck
jacek: oO
YCS-Venom: how i can store 109**987717 in string then output the first three characters in python?
jacek: str(109**987717)[:3]
eulerscheZahl: but memory will explode
eulerscheZahl: you could do something with logarithms
eulerscheZahl: 987717 * log10(109) to get a power of 10
eulerscheZahl: so this gives 2012400.7882664192
eulerscheZahl: you can make it smaller by dropping the integer part
jacek: is this... math? :scream:
eulerscheZahl: 10**0.7882664192
6.141386347439581
eulerscheZahl: so the first 3 digits: 614
Westicles: wolfram agrees. nicely done
jacek: you could just answer print(614)
YCS-Venom: i know and the time has exceeded the required amount
YCS-Venom: i tried that but it didn't give me something useful
jrke: i just calculated all possible sets of moves in dots and boxes
MSmits: wait what?
jrke: = 197450685722107402353682037275992488341277868034975337796656295094902858969771811440894224355027779366597957338237853638272334919686385621811850780464277094400000000000000000000000000
MSmits: you calculated the *number* of moves :P
jrke: all possible sets of moves yes
MSmits: and there's a lot of zeroes at the end so thats probably not exact
jrke: gamestates are less than that
MSmits: far far less
MSmits: this game has tons of transpositions, more than others, because lines are not player specific
jrke: i think factorial(112) are all possible sets of moves
MSmits: mmh isn't it 108 ?
MSmits: corners have 2 identical moves
jrke: i think 112 cause every match are 112 frames means 112 moves a game
MSmits: what i mean is, you're correct about the number of plies, but if two moves produce the exact same result, they're not really unique moves
MSmits: take the top left corner, it doesnt matter if you play the left line or the top line
MSmits: both give you 1 out of 4 lines for that box and nothing else
jrke: hmm
MSmits: this is only true for corners
MSmits: because there, they lack neighbors on 2 sides
MSmits: and there's also symmetry
MSmits: on the first turn you actually have only 14 moves
jrke: is there any way i can count total no. of unique gamestates?
jrke: 14 moves i didn't get that?
MSmits: you can rotate the board in 4 different ways
MSmits: and also mirror it
jrke: oh ye
MSmits: comes down to 8 rotation states
MSmits: 112/8 = 14
MSmits: works the same in uttt since thats also a square
MSmits: yavalath has 12 even, because it's hexagonal
jrke: hmm
jacek: hexagonal d&b :drooling_face:
MSmits: would be weird
MSmits: not sure if it would be interesting
jacek: everything is better with hexes
MSmits: takes a while to finish a box because it has 6 sides
MSmits: good rule of thumb yeah
jacek: thats universal law
MSmits: allright allright
jrke: in my d&b bot seed manipulation for generating randoms gives different ranks
MSmits: well that might be a statistical illusion
MSmits: dont trust the leaderboard
jrke: it means majority of bots are having randomness in it
MSmits: even deterministic minimax bots have some randomness
MSmits: even if they dont random on equal score
MSmits: the time limit is somewhat variable
MSmits: so sometimes you get 1 ply deeper in some turns
MSmits: which gives a different answer
jrke: hmm
MSmits: this not that common though
MSmits: so you would still mostly see the same games
MSmits: but if they random on equal score it can be a lot of random
MSmits: if the time limit wasn't variable then even mcts bots could be deterministic if their random seed is always the same
jrke: what you like random bots or stable bots
MSmits: but mcts bots are more affected by the time limit being variable than minimax bots are, because they dont add an entire depth level at once, but more gradually deepen a tree, so 1 added game can make the difference
MSmits: jrke it depends, if you're not the best bot and there are a lot of opponents, a non-random bot is fine
MSmits: but if the field is small or your at the top, you better add some random
MSmits: you're
MSmits: it's the whole reason jacek is still number 1 oware
jrke: hmm
jrke: i think crazyremi is having Ml based bot in D&B
MSmits: are you saying that just because he's nr 1?
MSmits: ML is not an i-win button. In some games it underperforms, many in fact
jrke: no look at points difference
MSmits: yes, look at my point difference on othello and yavalath. I dont use ML
MSmits: it's just a nice opening book is all
jrke: hmm
MSmits: of course thats not what remi uses
MSmits: but he may just have better heuristics
MSmits: 1 heuristic can be a 10 point rating difference
MSmits: technically
MSmits: usually if its that strong, others will have found it
MSmits: but if you have one, noone else knows...
jrke: yup
MSmits: you could do some research on D&B, see if there's something there
MSmits: i know a ton of heuristics, which is how i wrote my solver. But my heuristics are only late game
MSmits: not sure how to do the early game
MSmits: might be that the fact that i can solve at ply 50, doesnt help me
MSmits: because something smart is happening before that
jrke: for winning endgame you need to have better position in game opening turns
MSmits: yeah but what is a better position?
MSmits: both players uses the same board
jacek: i think remi said he uses just some heuristic, even not search
MSmits: so it's just who's turn it is that decides who has the better position
MSmits: yeah i think he uses nimbers
MSmits: nim theory
MSmits: counting chains
MSmits: do you do something with this"?
jacek: https://twitter.com/Remi_Coulom/status/1311426326868430849
jrke: mine is just depth 3 minimax i think a bit optim. can give me depth 4 minimax
MSmits: yes but how do you score?
MSmits: an early game
MSmits: eval score
MSmits: it's nice that you know what the board looks like in 3-4 plies, but if you dont know whats good and whats bad...
MSmits: jacek yeah i saw that, makes total sense to me that azero doesnt work
jrke: my minimax is bit different after each move i see if there is any chain is there i play it and revert last 2 moves of chain playing
MSmits: it seems really hard to figure out what the board value is
MSmits: and both players use the same board
jrke: thats the problem i want early game eval
jacek: opening book *.*
MSmits: ah ok jrke, so you're basically where i am, but without a solver
MSmits: i was hoping you had some secrets i could steal :P
MSmits: maybe you do and you dont realize it
MSmits: your rank is pretty good after all
MSmits: jacek i doubt opening book works here. I can see it working against deterministic bots only
MSmits: too much branching otherwise
jrke: its my favourite game i will rewrite it
MSmits: i like it too, but i am really dreading putting my solver in and finishing the bot. The solver alone is 1500 lines :(
MSmits: i was going to do random moves basically until endgame hits, but an endgame state has many possible situations
MSmits: you can be busy finishing a chain, having to choose between giving up control or not etc.
MSmits: i need a lot of conditionals and link them up with the solver
MSmits: and that's with a really complex bitboard
jrke: i will say all the best
jrke: some work gtg bye
MSmits: allright have a good day!
AntiSquid: but not dreading 1500 paragraphs of chat ? :thinking:
MSmits: no, that comes natural
AntiSquid: so how much did you check different solver outcomes?
MSmits: what do you mean exactly by check?
MSmits: check if they are correct, by hand?
AntiSquid: test / brutal test / submit spam test any, all of the above
AntiSquid: efficiency
MSmits: ahh I did not do much verification, but if you mean just generating random endgame states, i did that millions of times
MSmits: the average endgame state solves in 1 ms, about 1 in a millon states cant be solved in 100 ms
MSmits: an endgame state is defined as a state where you cant place a line without giving away a box
MSmits: so thats halfway through the game
MSmits: some states are ridiculously complex, i dont know if they actually occur since my states are generated randomly, not intelligently
MSmits: think states with 12 three and four way splits
AntiSquid: no heuristic shortcuts to get quicker to the best move for the 1 in mil states?
MSmits: there are a huge amount of heuristis in my solver
MSmits: so i already do this
MSmits: i really scoured those D&B papers for them
MSmits: used a lot
AntiSquid: :D
MSmits: mind you, halfway through the game there are like 56 lines left to play
MSmits: what other game can be solved at that point
MSmits: it's 56! possible games left to play
MSmits: (factorial)
AntiSquid: idk, how similar is paper soccer to dots and boxes? i didn't try paper soccer at all
MSmits: it seems similar at first glance, but i think it might be very different
MSmits: i havent tried either
MSmits: i know you place lines and you get to bounce multiple moves on your turn
MSmits: but you dont get points for finishing boxes, you just win, or not
MSmits: by scoring
MSmits: now i want to try and finish D&B and i was just gonna rewrite my uttt
MSmits: damnit
eulerscheZahl: there are more games than uttt and yavalath ;)
MSmits: yeah, too many :(
AntiSquid: just seen these news:
https://www.politico.eu/article/austrian-village-of-f-king-to-be-renamed-fugging/
MSmits: lol
eulerscheZahl: i saw a youtube video about that village
eulerscheZahl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bawmxQE_Fj0&ab_channel=NRKSport
MSmits: i am surprised its still on YT
eulerscheZahl: me too
AntiSquid: why? people swear a lot on youtube, nothing uncommon
MSmits: did you watch the whole video?
MSmits: i mean i dont say it should be off YT, i just think they might have
eulerscheZahl: yeah, because YT
eulerscheZahl: they like to delete when in doubt
MSmits: right
eulerscheZahl: i also don't always understand US logic. weapons? fine. nudity? no way, that's dangerous for the children
MSmits: it's their religious beliefs mostly I think
eulerscheZahl: do you know Kenny vs Spenny?
MSmits: nope
MSmits: sounds funny
AntiSquid: reminds me of borat making a documentary about a village in "azerbaijan" which was actually in romania and talking shit about the villagers without them knowing, later they tried sueing, wonder if this guy got sued
eulerscheZahl: 2 guys having competitions, sometimes funny, sometimes less
MSmits: did they kill kenny?/
eulerscheZahl: on episode: who can piss off more people
eulerscheZahl: kenny rented and airplane and added a banner to it "Jusus sucks"
eulerscheZahl: Jesus*
MSmits: depends if they have a sense of humor AntiSquid, he's only making fun of the name itself
eulerscheZahl: franatic people calling the radio channel, he won that round
MSmits: lol
eulerscheZahl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUcZuFRXHVs&ab_channel=KennyHotz
jacek: paper soccer is not similar to d&b. its more awesome
AntiSquid: i think youtube is more set on deleting anything that doesn't fit a specific point of view atm, covid, politicallly related stuff that doesn't support specific views and popular channels regarding occult conspiracy theories
AntiSquid: MSmits actually he lied to them, paid each 3$ or something and then was talking some serious shit about them, but didn't tell them what he was saying, lied instead, later they found out when it wa son TV
AntiSquid: he told them it was a documentary lol
AntiSquid: somewhat like the guy in the austrian village
MSmits: ahh ok
jacek: stupid Y, n-tuples prone to overfitting
AntiSquid: what are you working on jacek?
AntiSquid: which game i mean
jacek: yavalath
AntiSquid: ok now i am curious what your model looks like :P
jacek: just all possible 4-rows
**AntiSquid confused
jacek: hm?
AntiSquid: i just don't know what you mean by that, is every row in the 4 directions an input?
MSmits: every way you can win with 4 in a row
jacek: n-tuple is pattern system
MSmits: so 4 hexes lined up
jacek: i extracts those patterns
AntiSquid: so you only give it the 4 in a row it can complete?
MSmits: no, on eval, he checks every possible 4 pattern and sees whats on there (empty, p1, p2) each of these possibilities gets a score
MSmits: everything is added up
jacek: there are 102 row-of-4patterns. each pattern has its weight like x..x is something else than xx.x. and i sum them all
AntiSquid: ah you do scoring for each possible move then
MSmits: i am guessing it is an incremental eval
MSmits: so when he plays a move, he updates the eval
MSmits: only refreshes the patterns affected by the move
jacek: mhm
MSmits: thats what I would do anyway...
MSmits: dont tell me you redo the entire eval?
AntiSquid: was thinking of making it give you the output for the best move
MSmits: that would be slow
jacek: i use nn or n-tuple for eval only
MSmits: which makes sense but I also understand why azero includes the action
MSmits: I think it is because you can reach the same state by different routes, it might converge better if you include the action
jacek: they can use gpu/tpu to output entire move set. justifies the latency between cpu-gpu
MSmits: well there is that
MSmits: btw, i did a minimax with exactly the same patterns and I was slightly weaker than your pony is now
MSmits: i just picked the params by hand
MSmits: I think i had 6
MSmits: like if x00x being better than 0xx0
MSmits: or something
AntiSquid: alt spotted :x
MSmits: i never realized i could instead have thousands of params here
MSmits: you didnt know derjack was jaceks alt?
AntiSquid: i didn't even know it existed :P
jacek: well there is also position
MSmits: yeah there is jacek, but i didnt have the tools to take that into account
MSmits: i figured with enough depth it would be ok
MSmits: maybe if i did jacekmax it would be way stronger
MSmits: but then the incremental eval wouldnt work right =/
jacek: :thinking:
MSmits: jacekmax is nice here because there's so much branching and so many crap moves
derjack: eeyup
derjack: in forced move branching is effectively only 1
MSmits: this is a funny game https://www.codingame.com/replay/517155700
MSmits: look near the end, it seems like i am letting him win by not blocking
MSmits: but he had a trap ready to go for quite a few turns and he didnt tak eit
MSmits: (at 6 5)
MSmits: so my solver just says fk it
derjack: hes taunting you
MSmits: seems so
derjack: or because there is 4-in-row and 3-in-row simulatouensnsnsly?
MSmits: oh hmm, yeah i missed that
derjack: maybe he has bug
MSmits: both bot bots say it's solved, so must be some other way
MSmits: nah i doubt that
MSmits: no i didnt miss it
MSmits: 6 5 works
MSmits: he doesnt have 3 in a row there, i do
MSmits: i guess both moves led to a win for him and his bot doesnt care about early or late wins
MSmits: another loss by me. Detected 20 plies before the end lol
MSmits: https://www.codingame.com/replay/517155028
geppoz: this reminds me a game i did long time ago
geppoz: https://www.geppoz.eu/software/miele.jar
geppoz: only similar for hex btw, that is a solitaire puzzle ;)
geppoz: at increasing difficulty
AntiSquid: wtf is that link ?
geppoz: an applet
geppoz: i did time ago
derjack: is it legit
geppoz: a game
AntiSquid: i mean why does it ask to download stuff
geppoz: it is an applet
geppoz: no more supported by browsers
geppoz: so now you need to use locally, but nvm
geppoz: ignore it
derjack: like flash
AntiSquid: ok that explains it, typical java
geppoz: legit to not trust me ;)
geppoz: someday I will convert it in JS
derjack: :scream:
geppoz: that was a very bad moment when browsers removed applet support :(
AntiSquid: how long will JS fail to get the recognition it deserves ? :(
MSmits: how long will JS fail?
AntiSquid: you're using it right now MSmits ! think that's a success
MSmits: :grin:
MSmits: I'm just messing with you
AntiSquid: even Automaton2000 noticed that
Automaton2000: the last one is the current state
MSmits: this is how Automaton2000 says he won
Automaton2000: to ensure that you don't need to put in a lot of experience
AntiSquid: this is how he says: Big Brother Automaton2000 is watching you
Automaton2000: so you have to do the same for all languages
jacek: AutomatonNN eh
AutomatonNN: what do you mean by "if you can read it in the list of the context" ?
MSmits: AutomatonNN say something about euler
AutomatonNN: else i can get the points for coding
jacek: AutomatonNN who is noob
AutomatonNN: gg
AntiSquid: you get social points for saying euler, he'll like you more AutomatonNN
AutomatonNN: where is the problem?
SI_PROVA: yo guys how can i optimize the fking "horse-racing duals" puzzle
derjack: pony racing?
SI_PROVA: the easy puzzle
eulerscheZahl: click the hints on the left
derjack: timeout?
SI_PROVA: yeah time out
SI_PROVA: i've got it in the hints
SI_PROVA: thx
ParticleBeam: I hate working with Laptop keyboards
eulerscheZahl: same
eulerscheZahl: and keyboards that have a touchpad below
eulerscheZahl: you type something and accidentally click
eulerscheZahl: and continue writing at another location
jacek: hmm
jacek: fish is broken https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/517181228
eulerscheZahl: epic win :P
eulerscheZahl: give him some chips
MSmits: from what i understand he uses null window
MSmits: sometimes it causes problems
MSmits: wait maybe it was something else
MSmits: anyways its some pruning mechanic that sometimes misses something
MSmits: oh its null move
MSmits: not null window, thats something else
derjack: this eval sometimes sucks https://www.codingame.com/replay/517179975
MSmits: seems to detect win/loss very late
MSmits: assuming darkhorse did this correctly
derjack: or some bug with solver hmm
MSmits: could be
darkhorse64: I think my solver is correct but the depth is the closest to victory I have found at the moment not necessarily the best
MSmits: yeah i didnt find any errors in your solver
darkhorse64: In this game, I am proud of 65 prepared the devilish trap 42
MSmits: yeah its fine
darkhorse64: *preparing*
MSmits: well played. I think if i spam submit, your bot ranks quite high because its very random
MSmits: i cant book very well against it
MSmits: and it does well in late game
MSmits: i win most games, but not all
darkhorse64: My book excludes the seven center starting moves. I should try to add an eval or something that biaises towards 4 length triangles
darkhorse64: Astrobytes: you ask me (and others) a question yesterday but, due to lack of contest or not enough history in chat, I failed to understand
MSmits: nice typo, lack of contest :)
darkhorse64: :slight_smile:
Astrobytes: oh, I believe it was just for some advice for Zenoscave, he was looking into MCTS solver and whatnot, MSmits was there
eulerscheZahl: https://cg.spdns.eu/wiki/Chat:World/2020-12-19
eulerscheZahl: there's your contest
Astrobytes: lol
jacek: another victim of the mcts solver paper?
Astrobytes: I warned him against reading it :)
MSmits: well the idea is good, it's just the pseudocode that's crap
Astrobytes: yeah
eulerscheZahl: theoretic scientists writing code...
eulerscheZahl: once a prof told a story about someone from research implementing an algo
eulerscheZahl: was way faster than expected
eulerscheZahl: turned out he added a bug that made it faster (but still correct)
eulerscheZahl: something about minimum set cover iirc
eulerscheZahl: vertex cover
MSmits: so the moral of the story is that researchers only produce fast code when they're bugging it?
Astrobytes: researchers introduce helpful bugs
eulerscheZahl: they can't even follow the simplest of instructions :D
Astrobytes: "After 12 minutes we reached depth 5..."
MSmits: ok so == has priority over | ?
Astrobytes: lots of papers like that
MSmits: damn bit ops, i should know this by now
jacek: here you go: ( )
MSmits: thanks jacek, lifesaver
eulerscheZahl: jacek coding clojure on the chat?
jacek: :(){ :|:& };:
eulerscheZahl: won't paste that in my terminal
eulerscheZahl: not again
jacek: how about CG ide
jacek: hmm
MSmits: what happens
eulerscheZahl: fork bomb
eulerscheZahl: spawns new processes
MSmits: is that bash or something?
eulerscheZahl: mouse will get laggy at first
eulerscheZahl: then nothing responds anymore
eulerscheZahl: yes, bash
MSmits: evil
eulerscheZahl: you'll have to hard-reset your computer
MSmits: but it's so short
MSmits: i remember trying to create a process from a windows form, was a lot more work
eulerscheZahl: https://www.getdigital.de/fork-bomb.html
i bought that one :D
MSmits: i bet virus creators love this
MSmits: lol
struct: time to reuse connect 4 ais
jacek: :nerd:
darkhorse64: 4 hours coding to improve my score at A*C by 30 points :disappointed:
MSmits: :(
reCurse: Life in a nutshell
darkhorse64: Worse, I hardly beat a previous version which computed wrong scores. Once the bug was fixed, it performed worse ... :angry:
MSmits: the worst bugs are also features
reCurse: "Once the bug was fixed it performed worse" is like the chuck norris equivalent for multiplayer
darkhorse64: :nerd:
eulerscheZahl: confession: i didn't like the chuck norris puzzle
reCurse: Since there's so much momentum for correct representation in emojis, we should have different glasses shape
eulerscheZahl: we have :beer: and :beers:
eulerscheZahl: :wine_glass:
reCurse: What about liquors uh? Second class beverages is that it?
eulerscheZahl: all the same for me, i don't drink alcohol
Astrobytes: yeah yeah, we all know you drink a pint of schnapps at 7pm and that's why you go to bed at 8 :P
reCurse: First logical explanation I hear
eulerscheZahl: first of all it's around 8:30 - 9:00pm
Astrobytes: Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and eulerscheZahl
reCurse: Old?
Astrobytes: :older_man:
darkhorse64: Reading the PMs, I have tried to classify cells according various characteristics to exclude some from search and to start searching first with edges cells, then cells with arrows in the neighborhood, trying to refine my solutions while enlarging the search space. It's an improvement but I am still far from the 11k mark
reCurse: Have you tried hardcoding the solutions?
eulerscheZahl: the answer is offline solving
eulerscheZahl: and reCurse wins by type speed
reCurse: Flexing that wpm
darkhorse64: Some did it without. Why not me ?
MSmits: reCurse dont answer, that's rhetorical!
reCurse: By the same logic, some did it with, why not you?
MSmits: sigh, i knew it :P
Astrobytes: MSmits :grin:
reCurse: The day I stop engaging in those is the day euler goes to bed at midnight.
MSmits: so just after hell freezes over
Astrobytes: Approximately.
darkhorse64: I prefer to devise a better algorithm
reCurse: Have fun with the spam submit then :P
MSmits: did you do SA?
darkhorse64: LAHC and GA, LAHC fares better maybe I should start tweaking params
MSmits: tourist did SA
Astrobytes: with some tricks
MSmits: maybe SA works better in the short calc time available
darkhorse64: LAHC is a kind of SA.
MSmits: ah ok
darkhorse64: I "borrowed" it from Marchete
MSmits: sometimes it helps to prune the searchspace
MSmits: so keep the search the same, but disallow some changes
Astrobytes: here was Smits thinking it was Large-Ass Hadron Collider
MSmits: makes sense to me
Astrobytes: Marchet e used it for... NS right?
eulerscheZahl: yes
Astrobytes: I'd never heard of it until then
darkhorse64: I use some eZ tricks, if matation = previous state, remove the arrow. Nice improvement
MSmits: hakuna matation
Astrobytes: matations are mutations that only happen in the morning
MSmits: oh ok
darkhorse64: Other people are a treasure trove for knowledge, that's what I like here. This is my :heart_eyes: minute
eulerscheZahl: matation is mutation applied to mutation
reCurse: Genetic mistake
Astrobytes: matin + mutation = matation
reCurse: Hmm... GA should stand for genetic anomaly now that I think of it
darkhorse64: morning coding = crash dump
Astrobytes: hahaha
eulerscheZahl: in the morning i write the best code
reCurse: Your morning is what most people consider their afternoon
darkhorse64: in the morning, I sleep
Astrobytes: :D
darkhorse64: early in the morning, mourning
darkhorse64: OK, time to write that NS solver
Skynse: I write the best code with red eyes
Skynse: That is, when I desire the bed more than anything
Skynse: dang, good thing there are always moderators online
jacek: oO
Skynse: Cause some weird scenario popped up in my head where I needed moderators to ban some dude lol
Skynse: but eh, I was just daydreaming again
jacek: mk's avatar miniature looks like karen's hair
MadKnight: lol why
AntiSquid: strange fetish
famouswithoutname: Hi everyone
jacek: MSmits do you how much stronger is your bot in bandas with endtables vs without endtables?
MSmits: in terms of game rank it's 2-3 instead of 8
MSmits: leaderboard rank i mean
Knee-Gears: i droped from 1 to 24k :(
jacek: hmm, i have only slight increase winrate if i use more time on board size <= 16 (simulating endtabled)
MSmits: wait, how do you give it extra time specifically for that board size?
jacek: i mean locally
MSmits: yes i know
MSmits: but how do you give it extra time for that board size
MSmits: how does this work exactly
jacek: i dont use cg arena and whatnot
MSmits: i know, but i mean, the mechanics of the mcts
MSmits: the tree etc.
MSmits: how does the small board size get extra time
jacek: auto move = cpu2.getBestMove(game->board.getSize() <= 16 ? 2000 * 1000L : 10 * 1000L);
MSmits: allright, so you wait till the game is to a stage where the board is small and then it gets extra time?
jacek: yes
MSmits: that doesnt work
MSmits: we dont use the endgame table when the game gets to that stage
MSmits: we use it from turn 1
MSmits: when the board is 8x8
MSmits: remember, there are rollouts
jacek: ah, in mcts simulation?
MSmits: yes
MSmits: thats why my games are often solved at around ply 7-15 way before it gets small even
jacek: meh
MSmits: when i expand into a node with a board of that size, there isnt even any rollout
MSmits: thats when the solver kicks in
jacek: i wonder how would i simulate that. i would need fixed rollouts instead of time
jacek: to see how much benefits
MSmits: it's pretty safe to assume it helps a lot
MSmits: karliso nagrarok and I all use it
MSmits: remember that many games are decided on turn 1 because they are unbalanced
MSmits: so to get this much rating difference, means we do really well on the more balanced games
MSmits: helps more than in oware anyway
MSmits: in oware it's debatable
MSmits: I like them which is why i dont mind that it doesnt help me much
Toby75: yeah
Knee-Gears: i have ebola
MSmits: quite an achievement
MSmits: where did you order your electronic bolas?
Knee-Gears: from 'niger' in africa
Knee-Gears: lol smithy how are you 29th world wide xDD
jacek: oO
MSmits: lack of a social life
Knee-Gears: lamooo
Knee-Gears: lmaooo*
Toby75: how old are you, if I may ask?
Toby75: Because your profile says that you are a teacher
MSmits: me or the troll?
Toby75: you Smits
MSmits: ah, I'm almost 40
Knee-Gears: im in a discord call with toby
Toby75: nice
Toby75: I'm very young, and I'm looking forward to become a good coder
Knee-Gears: same
Toby75: But I don't know how to practise stuff like algorithm
MSmits: first learn the basics of coding
MSmits: loops, functions, variables etc.
Toby75: I am aware of them
MSmits: then do some easy puzzles, maybe use python
MSmits: work your way up from there
Toby75: So you recommend python for beginners?
MSmits: definitely
Knee-Gears: damm why not js
Toby75: But I heared that python is so diffrent to other languages...
MSmits: js can work too
Knee-Gears: ok
MSmits: all languages are different, some share similarities
Knee-Gears: *like java and js*
MSmits: python is very popular so the face that there isnt another language that is similar to it, is not a problem
MSmits: fact
Toby75: And how do you recommend practising algorithm?
Toby75: Just with CodinGame?
jacek: on CG, puzzles
MSmits: that's a really vague question though, an algorithm is just a series of instructions for a computer
MSmits: so any program will be using an algorithm
Toby75: Yeah, but I mean how to create good ones
jacek: though for very basic stuff you would need some tutorial outside
Knee-Gears: aight imma heat out by smith, hope to see you on some other day
Toby75: or how to create own, efficient ones to solve certain problems
Knee-Gears: bye*
MSmits: algorithms aren't necessary good or bad, they need to fit with the situation
MSmits: if you see a puzzle and you come up with a solution, you just wrote an algorithm
MSmits: so just practice
MSmits: Knee-Gears bye
Toby75: okay thank you
Toby75: you are amazing
MSmits: thanks
struct: MSmits I have a question sinse you are used to using windows forms
MSmits: well.... dont call me an expert. I got it to work and i do the same thing every time now
struct: I want to run c++ program, I know how to connect it with C#
MSmits: ah yes, sec
MSmits: that i know
jacek: C#++?
struct: No, not my question
struct: One sec
MSmits: well, i dont know the DLL stuff, you can create a dynamic link library. I just know how to start and kill a process. Is that good enough?
struct: Well I would like to pass all precomputed states to the C# program
struct: So I can see them
Toby75: How long does it take you to solve very hard coding challenges?
struct: The number can be quite big,
struct: How should I pass them
MSmits: mmh you might want to just serialize it
MSmits: write to file and read
struct: Ok, I guess I can do that
MSmits: Toby75 too long, just do what is fun
struct: This STC is giving me too much work
Toby75: My problem is that in the most cases I just don't understand the given examples
jacek: ok, having <= 12 'endtables' increased winterate to around 55-60%
jacek: for example?
MSmits: i'll share my arena class for windows form
Toby75: Maybe because my english language skill is lacking
MSmits: might be Toby75
MSmits: struct:
MSmits: https://pastebin.com/1qqRdxLM
Toby75: is it ok to google some stuff when solving a problem?
MSmits: thats my UTTT arena class for C#
struct: Thanks
MSmits: I call this from a window form to create two processes and handle input and output
MSmits: i dont need a referee since i use the bots solver output to tell me the game i sover
jacek: who uses { on new line :unamused:
MSmits: me :P
struct: Yeah, I probably write the referee
MSmits: I dont know, i like the symmetry
Toby75: It's easier to recognize the brackets
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: thanks Toby75 thats indeed why
MSmits: but i know almost everyone doesnt do it
MSmits: I also write C++ in camelcase
Toby75: But I would never ever be able to use this in my code, just because of the effort it would cost me to format it like this :sweat_smile:
MSmits: because of my C# roots
struct: I blame C# for that
MSmits: Toby75 it's important to have a style and be consistent
MSmits: helps read your own code
Toby75: definitely
MSmits: of course its best to code in industry standard, because that helps you read others
MSmits: but that ship has sailed for me :P
Toby75: but what IS industry standard?
MSmits: for c++ it is
MSmits: this_variable
MSmits: instead of thisVariable
MSmits: and functions with lower case
MSmits: and I use uppercase etc.
Toby75: aaahh
jacek: for python you have pep8 guidelines, for others other things
MSmits: yeah i try to use the guidelines for python since i learned it late and i have to set an example for my students
jacek: C# is just java with Capital Method Names
jacek: pycharm will nicely warn you about style
struct: I need to write this "arena" because I cant find the bug
struct: Im reusing states, but sometimes it bugs :/
MSmits: earlier today I found a solved state in my meta mcts i had to unsolve because it was solved wrong =/
MSmits: robo won a game through this state
RoboStac: dammit, he's found my backdoor
MSmits: lol
MSmits: what did you fix about your bot btw Robo?
MSmits: or is it just having random success again?
RoboStac: just retrained with the improvements I made for othello
MSmits: ah ok
RoboStac: I realised I'd never got round to redoing yava
jacek: what game you need to resolve?
MSmits: dont have the link
jacek: oware, Y, other?
MSmits: Y
MSmits: I think I copied the library from an old version of my meta mcts that still had a bug
MSmits: either that or it's just a really rare bug
RoboStac: the main imrpovement was allowing a much bigger network via base65536
jacek: :scream:
MSmits: it's not exactly that is it? I still havent gotten past the unicode invalid characters
RoboStac: I'm usin gbase65536 exactly and just accepting that I can't quite get to 200kb
MSmits: does it skip some characters or?
MSmits: you shared it with us before
MSmits: i have it saved somewhere
jacek: im using int16 from 0 to 50000, so each unicode is 1 character
RoboStac: yeah, it only uses valid characters, but some count as 2
jacek: with a little tiny loss of precision
RoboStac: my bots only 175kb but 99k chars
MSmits: ah, i have two ranges, there's an invalid range of characters about 2k wide somewhere above 50k
jacek: i sent pm to agad how i do this
jacek: might as well share it
MSmits: agad needed it for oware NN i guess
famouswithoutname: can somebody help with "Dungeon and Maps" task? Python
jacek: well, its pathfinding, no?
MSmits: I'm still waiting for my bots to need compression. Biggest books are 22kb, but they all use integer numbers for moves and are space separated, so can be compressed by a factor of 20 or so
famouswithoutname: Yes
struct: This biggest book is for which multi?
RoboStac: I guess I should retrain bandas too at some point
MSmits: RoboStac, add endgametables if you've got around 20-30 kb to spare
MSmits: thats how big mine are
MSmits: the next step is > 200 kb
MSmits: so thats about as big as they can get
RoboStac: in theory I should do if I convert it from base85
MSmits: I expect that if you do all that you'll be nr 1
MSmits: endgame tables are quite a challenge, take a day for that one
MSmits: I;m saying a day cuz it took me a week
struct: so a month for me
MSmits: when creating games you're quite fast though
struct: for simple stuff I can do it fast yeah
struct: If it doesnt require stuff I dont already know
MSmits: ah ok
MSmits: I suppose it's often the thinking that takes the most time
struct: for me its learning
struct: I struggle a lot reading papers
jacek: like the one about mcts solver?
MSmits: there havent been many games where i actually had to go for the papers
MSmits: mostly the mcts stuff and D&B
MSmits: I struggle too, i think you're supposed to struggle
MSmits: it's meant for experts in the field
struct: Even sometimes for algorithms
struct: reading is not enough for me
MSmits: well i have to read some of that stuff 10 times before i get it
MSmits: and sometimes it lacks context and i never get it
RoboStac: so my bots learnt to beat smits but now has a fish problem :(
jacek: sounds fishy
jacek: exploit the fact fish has some bug with null move heuristic
jacek: your bot is alphazero style with conv net?
RoboStac: yeah
MSmits: your bot learned to beat the current version of my book :P
MSmits: busy fixing a lost game vs darkhorse, will get to it tomorrow
MSmits: ohh these are really short games
MSmits: 13-14 plies, very cool
MSmits: let me switch to that
jacek: so may games, so little cores
jacek: good winter is coming
MSmits: yeah, i played a move my meta mcts already solved as a loss.
MSmits: i just hadnt put it in my book yet I suppose
jacek: such a disgrace
karliso: MSmits Is it not better to overtake (2, 3)?
MSmits: you mean steal? Nah, not for me anyway
MSmits: it's pretty balanced
MSmits: so i can win games when i take and when i dont take
MSmits: but i have somewhat better results not stealing
RoboStac: I probably should fix my starts at some point
RoboStac: still hardcoded first move as p1 + always steal as p2
MSmits: i have had starts with 1 0 and 2 1 as well, they are fine, tric trac does this
karliso: Are there draws in Y?
RoboStac: yes, but rare
MSmits: yes, but rare
MSmits: nice
RoboStac: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/517257222
karliso: You are on the same wavelength
MSmits: apparently :)
MSmits: the game might be solved as a draw
MSmits: to not be solved as a draw, every starting move needs to have a winner
RoboStac: though saying rare I did draw vs tic 3 times out of 9
RoboStac: on my last submit
MSmits: its funny, every game i lose vs you is identical
MSmits: oh no i found a different one
MSmits: loss in the same place though
MSmits: just different losing move :P
RoboStac: theres 3 - lengths 11/12/14
RoboStac: though I guess 11/12 are the same but reversed players
MSmits: could be, also once my bot solved as a loss, it doesnt really care anymore, might take longer sometimes
MSmits: never more than 1-2 plies, depends if it is a trap or a double 4 in a row
RoboStac: and the 14 is basically the same except my bot makes you play one extra forced move
MSmits: ah yeah
karliso: Wouldn't Y get boring with large opening books?
MSmits: they aren't exactly large though, mine isnt
karliso: exactly
MSmits: 1308 moves
MSmits: of course rotated for symmetry, so around 15k in that case
MSmits: i dont think it's boring because I like finding the moves
karliso: What if someone else approached openings like you and you both pushed each other.
karliso: Would there still be middlegame left?
MSmits: hasnt happened, would be interesting
MSmits: we almost had something like that in othello with oldjohn
MSmits: but he stopped
MSmits: the main thing is that my bot is really strong late game
MSmits: so i dont have to worry past a certain point
RoboStac: I imagine mines quite weak due to low sims + not much training data
MSmits: it's strong early game though
MSmits: and thats where most wins happen
Moogs: umu
MSmits: my meta mcts just said i need to break your triangle robo
jacek: the shell has spoken!
MSmits: on my 3rd hex, i somehow decide to place it outside of the triangle area
MSmits: the mcts has a serious depth problem early game
MSmits: most of my moves are triangle fixes, often vs dafish
MSmits: but karliso as for whether it is boring. I like the game itself because of the tactics, traps etc. So I like watching the meta mcts solve nodes and come up with counters. Thats why its not boring
MSmits: seeing robo wreck me 10x in a row is exciting :P
jacek: it just sucks seeing bot missing obvious traps and game ending in 11-12 plies
MSmits: jacek do you think maybe a ntuple bot isnt enough here? I think NN might fare better
MSmits: traps have odd shapes
MSmits: you have to have a relation between two 4-patterns to spot it
MSmits: NN layers do this
jacek: maybe. or maybe i need other approach to create my training data. the winrate can jump 45%-75% against baseline
MSmits: you should check how many different games it plays though
MSmits: it might be deterministic and then the winrate doesnt mean much
jacek: yeah it was pretty deterministic so i added more random
jacek: but still its jumping
MSmits: hm ok
MSmits: I'm not sure if the starting move might not have a huge effect on the flow of the game
MSmits: a center start is very different from a corner start it seems
struct: Is there any move that is always a loss?
MSmits: you mean, not considering the steal?
struct: yeah
MSmits: 0 0 and 2 0 are very weak
MSmits: I havent solved them though
MSmits: the +1 hex advantage of player 1 is quite substantial so it compensates the bad start a bit
MSmits: for example, the 4 4 start is a solved game
MSmits: but player 1 does 0 0
MSmits: and then player 2 does 4 4
MSmits: not solved
MSmits: even though the 0 0 is entirely out of range
MSmits: so it seems as if p2 an use the same tactics to win
MSmits: but at some point that corner hex will generate some threat that prevents the 4 4 win
MSmits: best counter to 0 0 is 3 3
MSmits: blocks 4 in a row coming from the corner
RyanGilbert: I am streaming, anybody want to watch or do a private clash?
RyanGilbert: twitch.tv/yeetpug21
RyanGilbert: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/15117835226356cc08941b30d6197547910d7b0
Astrobytes: RyanGilbert: it's already in #clash, up the top on stream notifications, and discord. Please desist.
RyanGilbert: OK, my apologies
MSmits: it's ok to say here you're streaming, if you keep it to one message right? Just no posting clash links?
Astrobytes: yeah totally
Astrobytes: no worries RyanGilbert
RyanGilbert: OK cool
jacek: happy Princess Luna Day
RyanGilbert: Streaming again to those who were waiting
Astrobytes: RyanGilbert your stream notification has disappeared
RyanGilbert: On discord?
Astrobytes: on here and discord it seems
RyanGilbert: hm ok
RyanGilbert: give it a few minutes probably
Astrobytes: last one is from about 15 minutes ago
Astrobytes: yeah, probably just twitch being twitch
RyanGilbert: any reason for the lag?
FirstInLastOut: so i'm not alone lagging ..
TM_Tsukiru: Here too
RyanGilbert: yeah
IamFish: Usually lags around this time. Should get better in like 30 min in my experience
RyanGilbert: ok
NeoXX: hi
NeoXX: henlLOOO
FirstInLastOut: hello
NeoXX: WHAT IS THIS?!?!?
NeoXX: WHOAAA
NeoXX: SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING
NeoXX: IS THIS AI
NeoXX: OR REAL
FirstInLastOut: it's a discord
FirstInLastOut: a real chat at least
NeoXX: huh
NeoXX: are my messages being sent to the discord?
struct: no
NeoXX: oh
svnnnnnny: hello
NotSoClassy: hey babe
Tomi101: hey
jbyepez: hi
AlexPearson: heck yeah I actually finished one
jbyepez: :smile:
soutenu: HEY
ThayHaiDepZaiVaDeThuongQuaDiAk: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/151087895c8a408761aec0661acc2adcc7a8b6d
