Chat:World/2021-07-09

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MaliciouslyCrypticUsername: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/569202691

MaliciouslyCrypticUsername: Hmmm

KiwiTae: MaliciouslyCrypticUsername you rbot is blocking yourself lol

MaliciouslyCrypticUsername: yes ik D:

MaliciouslyCrypticUsername: Clumsy bot

Default avatar.png tduck973564: Mfw

derjack: good morning

punter147: derjack morning. however from my side a good afternoon

Default avatar.png zyh0429: from my side a good evening

derjack: oO

Default avatar.png zyh0429: do you know any beautiful girls?

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: don't you know

derjack: :upside_down:

BlaiseEbuth: Retro-kick!

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: hloo

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: from my side good afternoon

BlaiseEbuth: mornin'

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: clash is becoming worse

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: test cases are not relevant to the question

punter147: SuryaTheOP why?

derjack: then give it 1 star

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i just now reported 2 clashes

BlaiseEbuth: Not new

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: but i am new

punter147: its been a while since i have last participated. Rating must have dropped :sad:

BlaiseEbuth: So don't say 'becoming worse', just 'bad'

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: maybe

derjack: there are some many things on CG and people choose to play clashes

BlaiseEbuth: ^

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: maybe for showing of their skills

BlaiseEbuth: :rofl:

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: most of them don't share code in clash

derjack: i wouldn't trust best people in codegolfing to write code

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: ahhh codegolfing

punter147: my last message did not have enough emotion points to show the sad emoji

derjack: :(

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: have anyonr tried code escape

punter147: derjack now thats good. let me try being sad again :disappointed:

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i tired but i asking for more people

BlaiseEbuth: Done the tuto...

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: let me try confused :confused:

punter147: SuryaTheOP lol no i have not tried code escape.

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: try it

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: but only tutorial you can do

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: other than that maybe you need me :smirk:

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: heyy im jus started coding

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: welcome to the hell

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: what?

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: its hell

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: maybe

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: by the way im 13

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: if you want to learn this is not good place

derjack: :thinking:

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: I learnt java script

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: this place is only for test your skills

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: yea thats why im here

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: if you like clash try to learn python or ruby

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: I learnt from freecodecamp.org

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: :heart_eyes:

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: and codeacademy

derjack: then solve some easy puzzles in js

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i agree with dejack

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: ok

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: is anyone from india

BlaiseEbuth: Thankfully he agreed...

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: :joy:

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: im from india

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: in india where

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: telengana

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: hyd

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: ooo myy god

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: what?

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i am from andhra

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: srikakulam

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: we live sooo close

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: :grinning:

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i don't think 730km is close

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: :joy:

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: yea

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: lol

BlaiseEbuth: ngm

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: @BlaiseEbuth where you from

BlaiseEbuth: Hell

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: a

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: bruh

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: youre not scorpion

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: from mortal kombat

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: how can you be from hell

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: blaise bro please don't give ticket to hell bro

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: lol

BlaiseEbuth: Ah yeah sorry, I forgot tha Mortal Kombat created Hell for the Scorpion's lore. Nothing to do with some millenary religions... :smirk:

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: or for people like us

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: okay community byee happy coding

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: stations and airports you often see this type of screen: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/e69ded80-b0e9-400c-90d7-e79c76c7c8de

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: how do I slove this

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: Im not getting

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: helpp

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/ascii-ar

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: this one

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i think you are familier with ASCII charaters

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: yes

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: i can explain but my online class has started

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: what you a student programmer

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: blaise can help you

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: ok

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: @blaise

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: yes i am computer science student

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: still learning

BlaiseEbuth: Wut? Don't throw him to me like that.

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: :joy:

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: best mod i have ever seen

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: lol

BlaiseEbuth: darknessrisenow stay here. No need to DM

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: ok

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: calm down

Default avatar.png SuryaTheOP: yeah he too busy

BlaiseEbuth: What is the problem exactly.

KiwiTae: too busy burning souls

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah. I automated it

derjack: like Automaton2000

Automaton2000: what did you change your code to be able to run my code in ide

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

BlaiseEbuth: ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Default avatar.png darknessrisenow: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ ʍouǝsıɹssǝuʞɹɐp

punter147: is this a letter from hell?

K_for_King: ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

TobiasA: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

InternalErrror: Can we please do a petition to ban minifiers (Chinese characters) from clash of code shortest mode

BlaiseEbuth: lel

DaNinja: ban shortest mode

BlaiseEbuth: ban clashs

InternalErrror: Ban codingame.com

Default avatar.png aph611418694245154847: ok sure time to use gzip

Default avatar.png Honxrss: hi whats up

BlaiseEbuth: ceil

Default avatar.png Honxrss: studying CS, but would really like to get a head start at whats going come up ahead

WhaIe: I agree with InternalError, it's annoying when people use the utf-16 encoding trick for shortest. Maybe shortest mode should count bytes rather than characters

sprkrd: there was an argument made in the forum in favour of counting characters instead of bytes. They said they made the challenge more unique in that way, as in most other sites the used metric is byte count

sprkrd: anyway... you know, maybe shortest mode is not such a big deal?

sprkrd: it's not like your honor is at play, or you're gonna miss a prize, or it's a particularly useful skill for the daily life

Uljahn: why is it annoying? just use the same trick [solved]

BlaiseEbuth: ^

sprkrd: maybe just do it for the funsies (should you be the kind of people who enjoys golfing) and who cares who wins and who loses? you can keep your own version of the ranking in your head in which you separate the ones who use minifiers from the ones who know, if you're not really into that kind of stuff

KiwiTae: totally agree if u wanna win bad just learn how to use utf16

KiwiTae: its fair game

KiwiTae: hehe

sprkrd: maybe it's just us filthy peasants who don't understand the passion for golfing :joy:

WhaIe: I don't care about winning, I just think it goes against the spirit of code golfing if you put your code into utf-16 encoding rather than write the shortest code yourself, but it's fine if you guys don't agree lol

Default avatar.png Assassindied: Hello :) a pro account for coding escape refers to what ?

Uljahn: utf-16 does not guarantee you a win if your code isn't quite short already

KiwiTae: +1

KiwiTae: and doesnt always shorten your code with the overhead

Uljahn: indeed

BlaiseEbuth: Codingame have a "for work" part for enterprises Assassindied

Default avatar.png Assassindied: Oh ok ! And is it priced ?

BlaiseEbuth: Of course.

BlaiseEbuth: Not account creation.

Default avatar.png Assassindied: OK :)

Default avatar.png Assassindied: thanks for the answer :)

BlaiseEbuth: Ok...

BlaiseEbuth: You'll be happy to know that the HTML notation of the color used by CG for the borders of the tables in the puzzles statement is #dadada... So, I'm sorry, but I have to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqk0jwNs2Ew

sprkrd: Whale Anywho, there was a forum thread somewhere where this was being discusses. Maybe you can sum your voice there and get a feeling on the general sentiment about this matter outside for the 4 persons who are in the chat right now. However, I cannot find that thread right now.

sprkrd: Ah, here it is

sprkrd: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/minify-is-cheating/191450/8

Marchete: hadouken spam is cheating

Marchete: codegolf can't use some language functions because I say so

sprkrd: who's spamming? :O

BlaiseEbuth: The joke fly high above sprkrd...

Marchete: cheaters on Street Fighter

Marchete: they just win me with hadoukens

Marchete: they don't do anything else

sprkrd: oh, let me tell you why i missed the joke

sprkrd: my brain filter the very first word of your sentence out (hadouken)

sprkrd: because it interpreted it as a nickname

Marchete: ahhh

Marchete: :D

BlaiseEbuth: Could be :thinking:

sprkrd: CG has trained me to see the very first word of each sentence as a nickname, as if you were talking to someone

sprkrd: so I totally ignore it now :joy:

sprkrd: Anyway, there's not Mr. hadouken spamming messages, then

sprkrd: there's no*. God, I'm writing awful this morning, skipping letters here and there and using wrong tenses

Marchete: there's no?

Marchete: like there isn't?

sprkrd: there's no Mr. hadouken

sprkrd: or there's not any Mr. Hadouken

Marchete: ok

sprkrd: there's not Mr. Hadouken just sounds awful

derjack: english~

Marchete: damn engrish, I'd write it as there isn't any

sprkrd: also earlier I said "my brain filter" instead of "my brain filters" or "my brain filtered"

sprkrd: and several other tiny mistakes that I didn't notice before pressing enter

sprkrd: there isn't any is also good

Marchete: tortilleishon de patateishon

sprkrd: depends on where you like your contractions better, i like my nots spelled out :relieved:

sprkrd: Marchete Unfortunately, I may be the only one getting that joke :joy:

Marchete: that's more than enough

sprkrd: I must say you're the only spaniard that I see consistently around

Marchete: sadly, yes

Westicles: I've been reading old #fr chats for golf tips. They love golf, it seems

derjack: :golf:

0xdeadc0de1: :sob:

Westicles: Apparently you are supposed to use the python id() function to generate random numbers and then spam submit until it passes. Sounds horrible

Marchete: nice idea

Marchete: shortest random ever

sprkrd: what? to what problem?

sprkrd: It seems like painfully unlikely if there are many test cases

sprkrd: painfully unlikely to nail down the correct answer, i mean

Westicles: For temperatures it is easy to get a sort that is close but not quite right. Like the answer is one of the first two numbers. That kind of thing

sprkrd: ah, I undersand

Marchete: 3 years ago this was my solution for thor

Marchete: curl hge.men

KiwiTae: :joy:

Marchete: 12 chars

Marchete: and 0.99$

darkhorse64: the most famous CG codegolf ever

Marchete: it was fun

sprkrd: my knowledge on curl is very basic, was hge.men a valid host at the time or is it something else?

sprkrd: when i try it now it says "Could not resolve host: hge.men"

Marchete: I bought it

Marchete: for 0.99

DomiKo: XD

Marchete: curl DL a random solution from that server

sprkrd: ah, sorry, missed that message

DomiKo: like really? XD

Marchete: with enough submits it randomly worked

DomiKo: 0.99$ for code golf

Marchete: yeah

Marchete: :money_with_wings:

sprkrd: so networks are enabled for our submissions? :O

RoboStac: not anymore

RoboStac: :)

Marchete: were*

Marchete: only on 2 codegolfs

RoboStac: I was too cheap and too lazy so only got to 16 chars :(

Illedan: What did your page return? Random solution?

Marchete: peasants

Marchete: yes, a random solution

Marchete: like 14 submits until it hits

derjack: could use it for checkers and connect to chinook for moves

Illedan: Or any other game for NN weights

Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Illedan: Using a lot of time to tweak a variable, just to find the value it uses are never getting changed

derjack: so, a constant?

derjack: amazons again?

Illedan: Blocking

Illedan: I used a value set later, so debugging revealed it had changed

derjack: "Stockfish 14 is now at least 400 Elo ahead of Stockfish 7, a top engine in 2016." oO

kyoya34: andi andi

MSmits: Illedan this reminds me of spending a week fitting weights agains top players in onitama, only to find out it used the same random seed every time

DomiKo: same story for me, when debugging my CSB found that starting position of POD is fixed value :D

MSmits: in some sense i am glad CG bench is no longer an option

MSmits: it's too tempting to spend thousands of games fitting weights. Better to do it locally somehow, even if it's less effective

Default avatar.png GoblinSlayer1: ими иапвитьибтьбюбьбиьтипмитьбюж.єД.лшюзщлпорнргошнлщдзл.юобрьптатжєХХХД.зпьпрбюД.лнлеоркпунтаолДЗ_ЮХЗю

Default avatar.png GoblinSlayer1: щшю9дг8лщгбдошжюлщєЗБЖЮЄ,

derjack: :scream:

struct: seems quite different from the books i usually see

Astrobytes: :)

Default avatar.png Catapa: Alo

Default avatar.png Catapa: Buna Dimineata

MSmits: my books are sunny

Astrobytes: hello Catapa

MSmits: ⛲

MSmits: this is in my book

MSmits: and ☕

MSmits: well... the unicode versions of them. chat translates them to emotes

Astrobytes: emojibook

MSmits: yeah there's a lot of them

Astrobytes: Sgt. Kabookemojiman

MSmits: https://imgur.com/a/TpG3cfD

Astrobytes: (Sgt. Kabukiman reference)

MSmits: no idea what that is :)

MSmits: you make me feel under-educated again

Astrobytes: Troma movie from the 90s

MSmits: what's a troma?

Astrobytes: Troma Entertainment

MSmits: ok..

Astrobytes: You'd like it. Superhero movie. He can fly and launches heat-seeking chopsticks

derjack: kids these days...

MSmits: ohh

MSmits: heat as in warm food?

Astrobytes: well he aims them at baddies

MSmits: I see

Astrobytes: It's a cult classic

struct: intel site bugged again for me

struct: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

MSmits: ahh ok, so they only showed this in your cult then

derjack: what do you need intel site for? intrinistics?

struct: yes

MSmits: you could just download the whole site at some point

Default avatar.png SilTav: hi guys

MSmits: hi guy!

Default avatar.png TheoreticalPirate_e27d: what do you think the better way to learn game development

Default avatar.png TheoreticalPirate_e27d: i am already know some stuff ,cding on unity

Astrobytes: Maybe try asking on a game dev site?

derjack: this isnt game dev site?

derjack: but theres game in codingame!

Illedan: Agreed on CG-bench MSmits. Now we know we have to go that way, but sad for newcommers

Astrobytes: And annoying when tweaking constants in the IDE

Astrobytes: Still, worse things happen at sea I guess

Illedan: Don't get me started

BlaiseEbuth: What's sad/annoyng ?

Illedan: IDE play cap

BlaiseEbuth: Oh.

BlaiseEbuth: Shhh! Don't complain, you don't have the right to, since the site is free.

derjack: how much do they pay moderators

Astrobytes: Pay? We pay with our patience.

Illedan: I quit my daytime job to moderate here

Astrobytes: :rofl:

Illedan: With ?disableChat it is quite a good place to work

Astrobytes: hahahaha

BlaiseEbuth: Hey!

BlaiseEbuth: Moskau! Moskau!

Illedan: ?

BlaiseEbuth: Astrobytes started

**eulerscheZahl understand that Moskau. kind of

eulerscheZahl: i know it's from a song

eulerscheZahl: also: hi

Illedan: hi

Illedan: zup?

BlaiseEbuth: hi

eulerscheZahl: weekend :)

Illedan: Wanna join in on Blocking?

eulerscheZahl: hm, it's another board game

BlaiseEbuth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvS351QKFV4

eulerscheZahl: right, that one

Illedan: Yeah, sim is fun

Illedan: Very hard to get fast

Illedan: I wonder if I can create some sort of tile tree to speed it up

eulerscheZahl: don't drag me into your madness

struct: i was gonna port the 3d version

Illedan: I know you want :)

Illedan: Anyway, I'm off for buns and coffee. brb 30 min ish

eulerscheZahl: 3D blocking?

struct: yes

struct: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6411/blokus-3d

eulerscheZahl: oh, that's a thing for real :o

derjack: is there hex blocking

eulerscheZahl: i opened the forum :/ https://forum.codingame.com/t/codingame-fall-challenge-2021-details-please/191792/6

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah

eulerscheZahl: i would say i'm shocked. but I already expected it

derjack: huh

BlaiseEbuth: Expected what ? That CG will decide things at the last minute ?

BlaiseEbuth: :smirk:

eulerscheZahl: that they consider an escape contest

BlaiseEbuth: No way.

Astrobytes: Indeed. I'm trying to ignore it.

derjack: w00t

Astrobytes: anyway, afk for a bit

eulerscheZahl: i predicted it before spring 2021 started. just so i can say "told you so"

struct: will i have to delete again :/

BlaiseEbuth: I don't trust you. You know nothing

Westicles: It could be fun. You have to solve the escape room to unlock the contest

Westicles: And then it some nice boring mcts thing

eulerscheZahl: I also predicted 68c9c0f65e242d686fe26fffc1a830ad7451a2ae4238a9d3f30e0d913e4b2b6c (you can check the chat logs) in early April

eulerscheZahl: echo -n "hex board, growing trees" | sha256sum

eulerscheZahl: so i'm good at predicting

derjack: liar, you just found collision

eulerscheZahl: :D

struct: yinsh being potw was also a dead giveaway it would be hex

struct: since the game doesnt even have a boss

eulerscheZahl: Dice Duel probably has good chances for PotW soon

eulerscheZahl: Thibaud wants to alternate puzzle authors a bit, as he mentioned once. Sokoban was pretty recent

eulerscheZahl: but in a few week probably

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah. Let's do one week eulerscheZahl, one week javaCoffeeCup.

eulerscheZahl: you may get that PotW too with your path finding

BlaiseEbuth: I can't until at least 20 users solve it... :(

derjack: i bet amazons will be next

derjack: what path finding?

eulerscheZahl: i didn't even know about that 20 solvers limit

eulerscheZahl: so that's why space maze hasn't been nominated yet? :thinking:

BlaiseEbuth: Me neither, until I ask Tibo

BlaiseEbuth: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/a-man-with-a-plan

eulerscheZahl: too much text, won't read that now

DaNinja: that needs a tl;dr

eulerscheZahl: and enough coding for today

Default avatar.png FriendlyKh: bye

Default avatar.png FriendlyKh: and hi

RoboStac: it also needs a tl;di (too long didn't implement) as theres too many rules that are almost the same

BlaiseEbuth: "rules that are almost the same"?

RoboStac: princess/dragon/treasure are almost indentical

BlaiseEbuth: They are.

BlaiseEbuth: The 3 can be present and only one is the objective.

BlaiseEbuth: But there's nothing more to implement...

BlaiseEbuth: All the idea of this puzzle is precisely to force attentive reading and full comprehension.

BlaiseEbuth: There's not so much redundancy, and not (so) much to do once you fully get it.

RoboStac: yeah, it just felt like extra complexity that involved more coding that didn't really add anything (as once you'd done one it was easy to do the others) . I quite enjoyed it other than that

Illedan: eulerscheZahl, if you do blocking, I'll do try/catch angle :)

derjack: :bribe:

darkhorse64: No one for Fireworks ?

Illedan: Is it good?

darkhorse64: no search, no bitboard, just ifs

Illedan: hmm

Illedan: What is the catch?

darkhorse64: It's completely different from other multis because you have to play well with others

eulerscheZahl: there's a catch in tryangle

AllYourTrees: is that hanabi?

darkhorse64: yep

Illedan: euler got it :D

AllYourTrees: interesting

Illedan: Ok, I'll read fireworks statement

eulerscheZahl: i might just wait for the next contest to play a game

AllYourTrees: facebook has some research papers about training a NN for hanabi :)

eulerscheZahl: bot contest that is

darkhorse64: I think these papers are useless in CG context

darkhorse64: because they presume all players agree on an implied communication protocol

AllYourTrees: ya good point

darkhorse64: implicit sorry

darkhorse64: There's currently RPS on the top 5. I wonder if bots can be improved

darkhorse64: Actually, the hard part is to parse the inputs. Once it's done, the fun begins

Illedan: So... Much... Text...

darkhorse64: Yes, that's the hard part. Output inputs and it will get clearer

derjack: if statement is hard part, then dont read it and code right away

darkhorse64: inputs are also a wall of text

AllYourTrees: what am i doing wrong if simd is slower than non simd?

darkhorse64: very tough and frequent questions. It may take long to load data into SIMD registers

darkhorse64: unaligned data is problematic for SIMD

struct: what do you want to do with simd AllYourTrees?

AllYourTrees: i was trying to convert a matrix vec multiplication to simd

AllYourTrees: the matrix is kinda small so maybe thats why? 60x32

RoboStac: that's usually a fairly big speedup, though theres a decent chance the compiler is already doing it

AllYourTrees: also a high chance that i'm not doing it the best :) the outputs match between non simd and simd versions hah

AllYourTrees: not sure what flags rust is compiled with, how could i tell if its doing it already?

RoboStac: not sure if theres anyway other than looking at the assembly (or forcing it to build with those disabled but I've no idea how you'd do that on rust)

RoboStac: if you want to paste code it might be something obvious?

AllYourTrees: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/865ab24f-54d0-4b75-b299-5fd8b2431bcf

darkhorse64: inference code, hehe ...

RoboStac: yeah, looks like it should be fine. FMA is sometimes a bit weird depending on processor generation

darkhorse64: is weights aligned ?

AllYourTrees: how do you tell if weights is aligned?

AllYourTrees: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/684243a3-d53f-41ff-a6d3-66b4e1b289b0

AllYourTrees: thats my code the sets up weights

darkhorse64: OK. Weights are also m256 vars so it should be fine

RoboStac: might be worth trying to force alignment on the unpacked_output

RoboStac: wait, what even is that - isn't that an array 8 long that you are indexing into by multiples of 8?

AllYourTrees: Ox8 is a const generic, so its an array of the fully output size in this case (32)

AllYourTrees: O * 8 == Ox8

RoboStac: ah

RoboStac: it's an O

AllYourTrees: oh yeah hah

AllYourTrees: does storeu vs store matter at all?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: uh hi

struct: yes

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hello

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hello?

struct: store assumes its alligned

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hellooooooooooo?:confused:

AllYourTrees: :wave:

AllYourTrees: is there a difference between broadcast and set1?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hi

AllYourTrees: oh wait nvm i see

RoboStac: broadcast needs the variable to already be in an avx vector

struct: you can use load if you are loading from array

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: ignoring me huh:unamused:

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: :angry:

struct: stop spamming

Astrobytes: Don't be a knob WaterCooledTopHat_3613

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: its you again astroybes

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: i mean astrobytes

Astrobytes: Quit the DMs or I'll ban you again WaterCooledTopHat_3613

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: dang

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: even though what is dms

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hello?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: :unamused:

BlaiseEbuth: Hello? Is anybody in there? Just nod if you can here me.

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: im there

BlaiseEbuth: Is there anyone home?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: people are here but there not talking to me too

BlaiseEbuth: Come on, now.

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: :unamused:

Astrobytes: Need some information, first

BlaiseEbuth: I hear you're feeling down.

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: me

Astrobytes: wahh I skipped ahead

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: ?

BlaiseEbuth: Well I can ease your pain.

Astrobytes: Get you on your feet again

BlaiseEbuth: Relax.

Astrobytes: Need some information, first

BlaiseEbuth: Just the basic facts

Astrobytes: Can you show me where it hurts?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: do i remember you blaise ebuth

Westicles: time for the suitcase on the left

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: cause you are kinda firmiliar

Astrobytes: lol Westicles

BlaiseEbuth: what's firmilar?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: ive seen you before but i cant rememmber

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: when

BlaiseEbuth: Well. I'm stucked here since almost 8 years...

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: ok?:expressionless:

BlaiseEbuth: I'm on the chat all the day, all days, and since several years. So you probably seen me yesterday, the day befor yesteday, the day before the day before yesterday, the.....

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: what?

BlaiseEbuth: Yes

Wontonimo: i kinda remember you also BlaiseEbuth :P

BlaiseEbuth: :thinking: Who are you?

S-Maitland: :grinning:

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: hi im back

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: i just exited the web. and then came back

Wontonimo: wow, you were in the web?

Wontonimo: what was it like?

BlaiseEbuth: sticky

Wontonimo: neon like Tron

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: i was in the website

BlaiseEbuth: <body>WaterCooledTopHat_3613</body>

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: you guy wont understand

BlaiseEbuth: No. He wont onimo

Astrobytes: If you don't quit being a tool I'm going to kick you

BlaiseEbuth: :thinking:

BlaiseEbuth: Hammer kick!

Astrobytes: :hammer_pick:

BlaiseEbuth: Am I really missing a scottish expression, or do you meant fool ?

Astrobytes: I meant tool.

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: Astrobytes what are you guys talking anout

BlaiseEbuth: So what's the meaning of this Astrobytes?

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: imean about

Astrobytes: Pretty close to fool

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: me?

BlaiseEbuth: Automaton2000 you're a mallet

Automaton2000: wait for me to do some research

Default avatar.png WaterCooledTopHat_3613: i came back you idiot

struct: :scream:

Astrobytes: Bye bye.

BlaiseEbuth: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

BlaiseEbuth: lag

Wontonimo: lots of attempts at humour has been lost in translation it seems

BlaiseEbuth: Like the movie?

Wontonimo: i remember that i've seen lost in translation, but i dont remember it

Astrobytes: I fell asleep when I went to see that with my gf at the time. Exciting stuff.

Astrobytes: Same with Big Fish.

Wontonimo: i liked big fish. i remember that one

Astrobytes: I watched it since and it wasn't as bad as I remembered.

BlaiseEbuth: Sofia copola's movies... :sleeping:

Millie_yeh_: waiy what

BlaiseEbuth: What what ?

Wontonimo: There's no discussion tab on UTTT ;(

jacek: huh

Wontonimo: found it

jacek: phew

Wontonimo: but on the main UTTT page there isn't a tab for it unlike some other games / puzzles

eulerscheZahl: file a bug report on discord

eulerscheZahl: and if you are a puzzle creator, avoid unicode in the title for that exact reason (bug prevents forum thread from being created)

eulerscheZahl: and because spamming with unicode is childish

Westicles: looking at you mr beach volleyball

Wontonimo: oh dear

Wontonimo: how do i remedy my previous trespasses against the sacred CG?

BlaiseEbuth: You can't. Your place in Hell is warm and waiting for you.

Wontonimo: oh good. it's cold here right now, and I could use a warm fire

Wontonimo: hey Westicles, if only the approvers caught the unicode title thing

BlaiseEbuth: You really think approvers read anything before clicking?

Westicles: heh heh. jk, I didn't know that was a thing either

Wontonimo: oh my BlaiseEbuth, I've been doing it all wrong!

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah... I'll add some some souls to the fire.

Wontonimo: 🏐 🏖 unicode everywhere !!! 🏐 🏖

Wontonimo: but not in my code! Don't put unicode in code comments either! omg, why do these new developers put smiles in the comments?

Wontonimo: or thumbs up?

Westicles: Do people still do that thing where you write text on pictures to communicate? That was the dumbest fad ever

BlaiseEbuth: Memes?

BlaiseEbuth: Snapchat?

BlaiseEbuth: Comics?

BlaiseEbuth: Posters?

BlaiseEbuth: :thinking:

Westicles: Comics are okay, as long as you don't use any of those fancy names

Westicles: Just bought the latest Richie Rich graphic novel... sheesh

jacek: poorie poor?

Astrobytes: Other than xkcd, this is the only 'comic' worth viewing: https://www.thefarside.com/

Westicles: Well, that and Andy Capp

Astrobytes: lol, that's a name I've not heard for a while

jacek: boomers these days...

Default avatar.png StevenV: #UTTT

jacek: :thinking:

Illedan: Anyone knows how to generate the URL for CGstats with the Blocking game?

Illedan: oh, nvm. I used the contest url -.-

Astrobytes: I do that way too often

jacek: huh

Illedan: ôO

Illedan: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Illedan: Navigating horizontal error print on mac is a pain, suddenly it goes to the previous webpage -.-

BlaiseEbuth: "mac is a pain" - Illedan, 07/09/21

Default avatar.png Tomo123: anyone using c to code>\?

jacek: i only use d to dode

darkhorse64: hope there's no g language

Uljahn: there is but not on CG

Illedan: Make your own Language? Include your NN weights into the language and use it on the games in 5 years when CG includes it? :D

Astrobytes: darkhorse64: :rofl: hahaha

Illedan: Connect4 or Fireworks?

Astrobytes: toss a coin

Illedan: This command does not exist. :(

jacek: :bomb:

jacek: (c4?)

jacek: or... :notebook: :soccer:

Illedan: c4 it is, then I can get back into NN

jacek: back?

Illedan: Yeah?

jacek: it implies youve done it before

Illedan: Sure, my current Oware is just NN without onehot encoding and only 1 output to evaluate the position it looks at

jacek: value output is all you need

Illedan: You don't use policy?

jacek: only noobs use policy ~

Illedan: :D

jacek: NN, and youre 69th...

Illedan: I didn't say it was good

Illedan: but it works, ISH

Illedan: Trained for 30 min :P

Illedan: Damn Astrobytes, you really tried to drop me on Amazons -.-

Astrobytes: Illedan: not on purpose dude I swear!

Illedan: Mhm, riiiight

Illedan: I'll remember this

Astrobytes: :D

jacek: phew he didnt drop me

Astrobytes: Naw, I'm just playing around with different things. I dropped myself into the -scores earlier

jacek: scores?

Astrobytes: negative score

Illedan: I think you drop jacek too by losing vs him on negative score :D

struct: hard to believe this bot was 1st

struct: i should resubmit

jacek: yeah, i lose pts in bt or checkers by winning with noobs

Illedan: bt?

jacek: breakthrough

struct: breakthrough

Astrobytes: breakthrough

jacek: slowpoke!


Astrobytes: :(

jacek: and there are more mods than people

Astrobytes: No, 5 mods and loads of people

Astrobytes: actively chatting, sure

jacek: i dont see all the people in list

Astrobytes: I know

Illedan: Is your Amazons NN jacek?

jacek: no

jacek: good old... minimax

Illedan: What year is it?

jacek: i have one locally that wins 90% against this one

Astrobytes: heh

jacek: but no need to use it now

Illedan: Lol, hiding community game

Illedan: But ok

Astrobytes: I need to bitboard this and make a decent bot

jacek: my eval is probably similar to your floodfill

struct: wouldnt call it hiding

struct: :p

Illedan: Dinner time, cya

Astrobytes: cya later

jacek: those nandway guys

Astrobytes: "nandway" :rofl:

jacek: or xorway

Astrobytes: that doesn't work so well

jacek: hmm https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/awM86K4_700bwp.webp

Astrobytes: oh the euros, yes that's accurate

BlaiseEbuth: eurowhat ?

jacek: and the finals are in wembley :thinking:

Astrobytes: Have to be a fool to go to that. Something like 90% of the Scottish fans that travelled there came back with covid lol

jacek: are scottish for or against england

Astrobytes: ...

BlaiseEbuth: #WilliamWallace

Astrobytes: I mean, the Scots fans didn't travel to Wembley for the England v Scotland match to cheer for England

BlaiseEbuth: bulshits all of this

Astrobytes: If you're a Scot living in England you pretend to be happy and encourage them whereas you don't actually care

Astrobytes: I'm not into football/soccer so I'm not the best judge

BlaiseEbuth: You are. As I am, since we still have a brain

Astrobytes: lol

Astrobytes: inb4 ngl

BlaiseEbuth: :imp:

jacek: yeah, football/soccer is better done on paper

Astrobytes: :rolling_eyes:

MSmits: :notebook: :soccer:

BlaiseEbuth: notebook soccer? :thinking:

MSmits: yes

Wontonimo: hey mods, question about sharing code. i posted someone on the UTTT discussion page of how to destroy 3x3 tic tac toe with bitboard and flatMC with a full code example. I'm assuming that's okay but now double checking

Wontonimo: it isn't a full UTTT implementation

jacek: its alright

Wontonimo: :thumbsup:

jacek: i posted 3x3 bitboard + ntuple implementation in chat i havent been kicked yet

MSmits: thats totally fine and also can be found google already

BlaiseEbuth: Yeah, lill' things like this are OK.

jacek: dont worry, marchete gave full implementation on number shifting :unamused:

Astrobytes: Yeah that's cool Wontonimo, nice one. I think MSmits is gonna do some explaining in an article too at some point?

MSmits: it's one of the 3 things I have planned for the summer

Astrobytes: hehehe

MSmits: I want to at least explain the 3 ways I use to represent the state

Wontonimo: I've helped a couple new joiners get to silver and gold using just FlatMC, and it is so much easier to understand and debug

MSmits: well 4 if you count the way i use locally

Wontonimo: when first getting start

BlaiseEbuth: Oh. And is this paper will be free?

Wontonimo: and it is fully reusable for MCTS

MSmits: thats really nice Wontonimo

Wontonimo: that's cool MSmits

MSmits: it will be 20% useful (but really useful for some people) and just 80% filled with weird out-there stuff almost noone will use.

MSmits: but i will separate the two clearly :)

Wontonimo: i want to ask what these 4 ways are, but i'm guessing you'll share when you write it up

Default avatar.png kysty: uh, anyone got example for the obtuse triangle code clash? all test worked except test3 for some reason???

MSmits: well binary, ternary, and my hard to explain system that I really need an article for

struct: wontonimo a lookup was faster

struct: was/is

struct: at least for me

struct: But i think its a good thing anyways so more people can understand avx

Wontonimo: my current uttt bot uses a lookup (512 states)

MSmits: maybe I'll include some other games in my article. at some point i developed an obsession with shrinking gamestates to be as small as possible (bit-wise)

jacek: so is mine

MSmits: struct i just said this to Wontonimo in a PM

MSmits: you told me that

Wontonimo: oh, you know what MSmits ... i'm wrong. i was comparing a loop of 8 win moves to the avx, not a lookup

jacek: hm?

MSmits: ahh ok

MSmits: yeah thats gonna be slow

struct: yeah the loop is slower than the avx

jacek: welp i stopped caring about game performance that much since nn is more costly

MSmits: when you've spent a lot of time maxing out bot performance for various, you kinda do it automatically, whether it is needed or not

MSmits: for various games

Astrobytes: ^ this is how you become struct :D

struct: i didnt optimize for c4

Astrobytes: WHAT

Astrobytes: Shocking.

Astrobytes: You have failed us

struct: ofc i did it was the first thing

MSmits: i didnt either, my bot is still my first version except some small change suggested by struct

Astrobytes: :D

struct: my first thing was rollout function like I said before

struct: since i dont care anymore about c4

struct: this is how i update the mask

MSmits: ohh... gold incoming

Wontonimo: thinking of one punch man's secret to how he got so strong

MSmits: :open_hands:

jacek: gold?

struct: mask = (mask + (511ULL * opp_winning_moves)) & 0x7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFULL;

Marchete: I gave full Number shifting, yet only 1 guy used it ever...

MSmits: structs secret

struct: ups not that one

struct: mask = (mask + (511ULL * pdep)) & 0x7FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFULL;

struct: its equal to

jacek: Marchete i used it for about 20 levels

MSmits: what are you pdepping

struct: mask + ((pdep << 9) - pdep)

Marchete: I care for the climate change

struct: const uint64_t pdep = _pdep_u64((1ULL << rand(__builtin_popcountll(mask))), mask);

Marchete: don't waste 4hours per level if you can do it in 10 mins

struct: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/737e6c74-d3c6-4145-9298-5ca870d79851

struct: it was faster than setting and clearing bit

struct: at least for me

MSmits: Marchete you think of things faster than i can use them

sprkrd: Marchete I think that the people keen enough to actually know how to run your code for number shifting tend to be also the proud ones who would prefer to solve the game themselves

MSmits: thanks for sharing struct

Astrobytes: yes indeed, pretty nifty

Marchete: yeah, maybe I shouldn't share it

MSmits: sprkrd i think he made it pretty easy though

MSmits: easier than mokka anyways

Marchete: but it was like 30.000% faster than any other approach, damn

Westicles: Yes, I agree sprkrd. Very proud

Marchete: :D

Astrobytes: Marchete: I don't think there's much wrong with sharing it

Marchete: also, it was 2 years old

Marchete: or more

MSmits: the puzzle you mean?

Marchete: yes

sprkrd: Marchete I wasn't condemning you, I was supporting you :O

MSmits: well it was never about getting a maximum score. It was more like a normal puzzle, only with 1000 of them

Astrobytes: oh hey sprkrd

sprkrd: hello Mr. Laing :)

Astrobytes: :D

Marchete: I regret nothing! :D

struct: np, ofc the performance diference doesnt come from there, I wont share the avx functions though to keep multi integrity

Astrobytes: I still haven't written anything for numbershifting, I did it by hand, like Uljahn, maybe some others?

MSmits: i sucked at doing it by hand

Astrobytes: Naturally struct :)

MSmits: yeah dont share that

Marchete: don't start then Astrobytes :)

Westicles: I was against it at first, but I was determined to spend the year burning up my computer to solve it. Instead it took 28 hours. Amazing solution

Marchete: westicles I were on your same boat

Marchete: I had literally a cloud farm of cpu

Marchete: 70x cores

MSmits: how many google accounts with free cloud computing is that

Marchete: preemptive are cheap

Astrobytes: :heavy_dollar_sign:

Marchete: also there are more cloud providers

Marchete: but you are on point ;)

MSmits: I wonder how many times this happens in practice, when doing heavy calculations (in science and business). Them using 300x more time because of an inferior algorithm

Astrobytes: A lot. But for most research purposes it doesn't matter apparently

sprkrd: Yes, that's called reinforcement learning

Wontonimo: like 100% of the time

Marchete: I'd say domain knowledge

sprkrd: it's what they used for alphazero

sprkrd: :clown:

MSmits: pennywise!

Astrobytes: :balloon: :balloon: :balloon:

MSmits: damn you beat me to it

Astrobytes: The only time I won today I think

sprkrd: now seriously, some breakthrough has to happen at some point, it cannot be that we have to spend thousands of kilowatts to just learn a stupid board game

Wontonimo: at where i work, laziness leads to huge REST request and bloated DB payloads. Azure loves us for all the billing they get to do

Wontonimo: not to mention all the lag caused by it

MSmits: well I guess there's always a tradeoff between dev time and cpu efficiency

MSmits: otherwise why would there be python

Wontonimo: and because it is all so inefficient, it has to be distributed across a larger server farm, and that adds additional overhead costs

Wontonimo: right you are MSmits, there really be a tradeoff.

Astrobytes: Kinda why I never went into research

jacek: welp nnue shows you can have a0/lc0 performance with a fraction of power

MSmits: in some domains i guess?

Marchete: well, in general I can't say NN are power efficient

Marchete: most of these use like hundreds GPUs to learn

sprkrd: i don't think NN are the largest problem, really

jacek: yeah its very specific

MSmits: that depends on what you compare them with

AllYourTrees: wouldn't the main thing from NNUEs (that the input changes very little from last step) apply to a lot of things?

Marchete: TPU or whatever

AllYourTrees: or am i misunderstanding NNUEs

MSmits: if you compare a nn with a similar strength normal mcts bot, the nn is wayyyyy more efficient

MSmits: as it will require a fraction of the calculation time

Marchete: + N hours of training

jacek: but more time in 'training'

MSmits: yes but that is only the initial investment

MSmits: you can use it forever afterwards

MSmits: its like solar power

MSmits: big investment at first, pays off later

sprkrd: I think the problem is having to need millions of play-outs to actually fine tune the function approximator. There's an algorithm in RL called HER (Hindsight Experience Replay) that I like quite a bit because it cuts down enormously the number of examples that you need to feed to your network

MSmits: btw dont use solar to power nn

AllYourTrees: and then they make 1 tiny change to the board game rules and you have to retrain lol

sprkrd: the problem with that is that is that it's not easy to extrapolate to adversarial games

MSmits: I am great at hindsight

sprkrd: the idea is pretty neat: they say, OK, you haven't reach your goal in this episode, BUT if the goal was actually the state you reached by the end, then you would have succeeded. And with that, they learn even from failed episodes

Marchete: alphazero learns from losses too

Wontonimo: yeah, i really liked that idea sprkrd. I'd like to reread that paper if you've got the link handy

Marchete: I find AZ simple to understand the learning process

Wontonimo: is it this one you are thinking of https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.01495

sprkrd: Wontonimo there's a video by two minutes papers with a link to the paper in the description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvd1jQe3pq0

Marchete: play, use win/loss and visits each turn as learning samples

Marchete: not those DDQN math

Marchete: I can't understand

sprkrd: Wontonimo yep, that one :)

AllYourTrees: one thing i don't like how AZ needed to add noise and sampling action to force exploration, it seemed lke that was really important

Marchete: neither do I

Marchete: but I guess random noise cancels out

Marchete: with enough samples

jacek: how else youd explore

sprkrd: isn't adding noise like an alternative mechanism to eps-greedy?

RoboStac: yeah, otherwise you play thousands copies of the same game

AllYourTrees: yeah but i also don't like epsilon greedy :)

RoboStac: as it's deterministic

jacek: eplsilon greedy is meh

jacek: with noise you choose not so crappy alternatives

sprkrd: i guess softmax would be mathematically more elegant, but it's a bit more computationally expensive

Wontonimo: I believe the temperature function is noise in favour of the likely, so quite different than softmax

Wontonimo: They start with a temperature of 1 and then reduce to 0.3 during training iirc

Wontonimo: so at the start it really is like softmax, but then it moves to be very close to deterministic

sprkrd: but are you talking about AZ, Wontonimo?

Wontonimo: let me double check and see if i can find a source about the temperature thing

AllYourTrees: for temperature they start with temp of 1 and then reduce it to 0 after 30 turns i think

sprkrd: so if I get you correctly, you're talking about doing softmax dividing the exponent by T, am I right?

AllYourTrees: i.e. select best move start at turn 30

RoboStac: yeah, I think alphago had a slowly reducing temperature and alphazero just had 1/0

sprkrd: so exp(-x / T) / sum(all the exps)?

Marchete: the temperature thing is just a way to control a weighted random selection

Marchete: weighted as the more visits you have, the more chances you have

Wontonimo: yes, T=1 is just softmax

Marchete: and temperature is just pow(visits, 1/temperature)

Wontonimo: T=0 = max

Marchete: I don't think it's about softmax here

sprkrd: how do you keep track of visits when you're using function approximation?

Marchete: temperature is for when you end searching in a turn

AllYourTrees: the function approximate just takes the place of a rollout in MCTS

Marchete: you have a MCTS tree

Marchete: with childrens, each one with visits count

Marchete: what children do you pick as best move?

Marchete: normally it should be the most visits

Marchete: but for giving diversity

Marchete: you do a random weighted

Wontonimo: a rats, stuff got interesting and I've gotta go. later ppl

sprkrd: see you Wontonimo

Marchete: at some point

Marchete: at turn 30

Astrobytes: later dude

Marchete: they just say: "no more random, just pick the move with more visits"

Marchete: that's the temperature zero or infinite can't remember

Marchete: I prefer to way it as pow(visits, factor)

sprkrd: I always forget about the look-ahead aspect of AZ, I have in my mind a clearer picture of actor critic

Marchete: the bigger the factor the more frequent higher visits are randomly picked

Marchete: that's one source of diversity in AZ

Marchete: also they have dirichlet noise

Marchete: in the root expansion only

Marchete: so expand 1st children

Marchete: then add some noise

Marchete: "dirichlet" in this case

Marchete: tldr it's just a vector<float> that sums 1

Marchete: so it doesn't break the softmax (that also sums 1)

AllYourTrees: when you construct the target for the visits, do you do a softmax or just divide by the sum of the visits?

sprkrd: in the upcoming months I'll have to use muzero as a baseline to compare against my own work, so in the process I guess I'll consolidate my knowledge about AZ.

AllYourTrees: like after you run mcts how do you make the policy target that you stick in the buffer

RoboStac: just divide by the root visit count

AllYourTrees: okay ya thats what i do, idk if that or softmax makes a difference

AllYourTrees: they probably produce different policies

Marchete: it gives different

AllYourTrees: which do you do Marchete

Marchete: more flat

Marchete: https://github.com/marchete/CGZero/blob/master/src/CGZero.cpp#L17-L18

AllYourTrees: probably have numerical issues if you try to raise e^500

Marchete: I first divide

Marchete: otherwise it gives nan

Marchete: but after divide I tried to softmax

jacek: there is some trick to make softmax safe

jacek: minus the max?

Marchete: yeah

RoboStac: well, you'd do stable softmax by subtracting the max

RoboStac: in the same way you hopefully do on the forward layer

Marchete: maybe I should do that

Default avatar.png gkacitadze: who can help me?

jacek: with?

MSmits: general advice to life i think

MSmits: don't pee into the wind

MSmits: don't eat yellow snow

Marchete: but I just don't use softmax, I guess it's a matter of sub max value, then softmax

sprkrd: MSmits two advices and both have to do with peeing

jacek: omorashi eh

MSmits: mmh I see the pattern now

AllYourTrees: i don't think just subtracting max would work

jacek: but it does

Marchete: why=

Marchete: ?

AllYourTrees: if you have [100, 200, 400, 50, 50], then you'd end up with [-300, -200, 0, -350, -350]

sprkrd: yup

AllYourTrees: wouldn't that still be pretty unstable??

sprkrd: nope

AllYourTrees: e^-350?

sprkrd: large negative values would tend to 0

sprkrd: going towards 0 is alright

sprkrd: going to inf isn't

AllYourTrees: ahhh okay

Marchete: python with numpy and jupyter notebook is a good way to test all these

sprkrd: I also like sagemath quite a bit

sprkrd: is python+jupyter+ you get to visualize your outputs in nicely formated latex documents

Marchete: I have zero graphs of my learning process :D

Astrobytes: :stonks:

MSmits: stonks?

Astrobytes: google it

MSmits: I already googled jaceks urine feitsh thingy

MSmits: i am at my quotum

jacek: huh

Marchete: robo, did you tried fixed point int16 math for NN?

Astrobytes: what?

MSmits: omorashi

jacek: ah

Marchete: try*

RoboStac: yeah, my current c4 is float training with int16 on submit

jacek: i thought it was random japanese word

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: oh good lord, didn't need to google that

Astrobytes: No you didn't jacek

MSmits: well I trust jacek blindly

RoboStac: it's about 20% faster

jacek: maybe you shouldnt

MSmits: I am starting to think that too

RoboStac: and technically could go horribly wrong as my relu isn't capped

Marchete: it shouldn't be near 100%?

Marchete: with capped

Marchete: like trying to keep all in like -1.5 .. 1.5 range

MSmits: forgive me for thinking stonks is a poo thingy after looking up jaceks word Astrobytes

Marchete: convert to -32767..32767

Marchete: and use that special mult with msb

Astrobytes: Forgiven MSmits

MSmits: :grin:

RoboStac: it reduces the number of multiplications by 2, but theres still lots of other bits that are the same

Marchete: In my head I see it all as int16

MSmits: are you asleep when that happens Marchete

RoboStac: all the additions are int32 (as int16*int16 is int32)

Marchete: https://software.intel.com/sites/landingpage/IntrinsicsGuide/#text=_mm256_mulhrs_epi16&expand=4981

MSmits: just asking for a friend who had that happen is all

jacek: the universe can be compressed into int16

Marchete: int16xint16=int16

jacek: he meant the sum will overflow so you need bigger int to store it

Marchete: int16xint16->int32->shiftR16

Marchete: in 1 instruction

Marchete: fixed point math

RoboStac: hmm, more innacuracies. Might work though

Marchete: big innacuracies :D

RoboStac: it's already scary how wrong it is on equal positions

Marchete: but I just want to ask about if that was tried

Marchete: cummulative 1.0/30000.0 error

Marchete: more or less

RoboStac: lets have a go, should be a quick change

Marchete: quick change?

Marchete: lel

Marchete: for me it's like a massive overhaul

RoboStac: well, I've got all the int16 conversions, just need to change the additions / relu steps

Marchete: because I need to check my values all over can't overflow

MSmits: lel, lul and lol are all Dutch words btw, not abbrevs, real words

Marchete: lol

MSmits: that means fun

RoboStac: yeah, mine has the potential to overflow

RoboStac: tried 20 games and it never got close though

Astrobytes: isn't one ass or something?

MSmits: lul is penis

Marchete: \o\ lol /o/

MSmits: lel is slap in the face

Marchete: ppl waving

jacek: hm? https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aAY2rXg_700bwp.webp

MSmits: or just punch, not sure

Astrobytes: ah, I knew it was Down There

MSmits: yep

MSmits: lol jacek

MSmits: the sign basically says, Mon, that one, that one, that one, please

MSmits: Mom

jacek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaXigSu72A4

Astrobytes: Lies. Psychotic dutch children.

Astrobytes: (joking)

MSmits: well some are imho

Astrobytes: That's not just a Dutch thing

MSmits: sure, but Dutch children are bigger

Westicles: yeah, I heard about a dutch kid putting his finger in a leaking dyke

Astrobytes: :smirk:

MSmits: he probably thought it was an electrical socket

sprkrd: the first thing I saw when I looked at the chat again was MSmits saying "lul is penis". I thought his account got vandalized

MSmits: haha

sprkrd: and then I thought people were celebrating his momentary lapse of childish behavior

MSmits: wait if you lapse your childish behavior, doesnt that mean you stop being childish

MSmits: mmh

Astrobytes: Yes. That's called not living properly.

sprkrd: lapse also means "moral failure"

MSmits: I see

Marchete: you can't be childish with students I guess

Astrobytes: Why not?

MSmits: well most of mine are 16 and older

Astrobytes: The very peak of childishness

MSmits: a certain type i guess :)

Marchete: the worst

Astrobytes: yes That Type

MSmits: don't get many of those thankfully

jacek: hm?

Astrobytes: Still, never lose your inner child. You lose touch with the world.

MSmits: true

MSmits: real scientists never lose it

MSmits: science is basically: "hmm what happens if i do this "

MSmits: and that's what being a child is

jacek: https://www.tested.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/12/83986-83931-05-mythbusters-expressions.jpg?w=921

MSmits: very true

jacek: https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/ded7a33b909a5d2b0331fb9452492ff6fe360526cd90cc923ac3a679adbf744b_1.jpg

MSmits: i did that too

jacek: and now youre bald

Astrobytes: 100%

MSmits: that too

Astrobytes: Those two memes are on point

MSmits: I remember one time mixing some carbonated drinks, putting a lid on and shaking it

jacek: oh my

MSmits: nice explosion. Had to clean up kitchen though

Astrobytes: I had the sense to do (most of) these things outside

MSmits: well

MSmits: thats were my parents were

struct: i had a friend that took carbonated drink in a bicycle ride

MSmits: nice one

Astrobytes: Sodium metabisulfite and citric acid reaction in my bedroom was not good though

Astrobytes: I even had the windows open

Astrobytes: and did it on the windowsill

jacek: struct like this? https://i.imgur.com/NefQSich.jpg

Astrobytes: Some smell

MSmits: one time I was tired after a parent-teacher thing and took some free coca cola home with me in a plastic beaker with lid. Was too tired to think about it

MSmits: and that one exploded in the train

struct: "Zoinks! You've taken a wrong turn."

struct: doesnt work jacek

Astrobytes: That was only last year wasn't it? Year before MSmits?

jacek: you tried?

MSmits: you dont want to explode things on a train I tell you

struct: the link doesnt work

MSmits: i think 3 yrs ago already

jacek: huh

MSmits: but yeah i might have told this before, apparently

Astrobytes: wow, time flies

jacek: imgur doesnt work for you?

Astrobytes: I remember you were really happy about the free cola

MSmits: yes!

struct: i think cg messed it up

struct: copy and paste worked

MSmits: stores are closed and i didnt want to drink water

MSmits: i still ended up drinking the cola too, the half that was not all over my face and clothes

Astrobytes: Of course. Waste not, want not.

MSmits: exactly

MSmits: btw got my 1st vaccine shot yesterday

Wontonimo: suck it out of the fabric. Get cola and clean your clothing at the same time

MSmits: lol

Wontonimo: congrats Msmit !

MSmits: nothing like ending a 14 hr work day by sucking on your clothes

Astrobytes: Tastes like whatever you used to clean your clothes, tried that with expensive drinks before when younger :P

jacek: oO

MSmits: Wontonimo yeah I could not move my arm all day though, it's now getting better finally

jacek: :smirk:

Wontonimo: clean your clothing using turkey juice Astrobytes , solves the problem

Astrobytes: hehe yeah mine was like that for 2-3 days

MSmits: ah that sucks

jacek: pfizer?

MSmits: apparently the second shot could be worse?

MSmits: yeah jacek

Astrobytes: Same

jacek: it is a llitle worse

jacek: i was sleepy all week

jacek: but that could be heatwave

Wontonimo: i got my second on wednesday. yesterday i couldn't figure out if i wanted to barf or explode out the back end all day

Wontonimo: not a fun day yesterday

Astrobytes: I had a bit of fatigue on the day after but otherwise was cool

Wontonimo: today i'm good

Astrobytes: nice, much better day

Westicles: all those spike proteins collecting in your ovaries can make you sleepy, sure

MSmits: sounds a bit like stomach flu Wontonimo

MSmits: noro virus

MSmits: there's always the remote possibility you caught something else

Astrobytes: when I got covid my first symptom (other than feeling real strange and a fever) was back end material

jacek: oO

MSmits: let's take bets on how long it takes jacek to find a meme for that Astrobytes

Astrobytes: followed by vomiting, then flu like symptoms, then OK after a week or so

Astrobytes: And then it came back.

AllYourTrees: i just had a headache after my second pfizer shot

AllYourTrees: my mom didn't have many symptoms either. wife was out of commission for the next day lol

MSmits: my wife was like that for 1 day after 1st shot

codeing: hello

MSmits: you forgot world

codeing: wanna ask a question

Astrobytes: My mum had the AZ one and was cool with the first, second one did her for a week, vomiting and fever mostly

struct: No symptoms, but I havent taken the vaccine yet

AllYourTrees: oh wow

codeing: what kind of game of logic allow to improve programming skills ?

codeing: anyone have any idea ?

AllYourTrees: any practice programming will help you improve programming :)

MSmits: yes also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oseqh7SMIvo

struct: I dont use logic, i use performance

codeing: how performance ?

jacek: connect 4 and oware are now hyped

Marchete: 1st pfizer shot, just arm pain

codeing: cool jacek

Marchete: well, really in the 1st 5 minutes after the shot, I got some symptoms, but lasted just a couple of minutes luckily

AllYourTrees: thats good

Astrobytes: or not - unless an allergic response there should be nothing happening other than a sore arm for the first 10-15 minutes

Astrobytes: 30 mins being a reasonable time to wait for allergic response

jacek: and 1 hour before the upload is complete

Astrobytes: Yes! I now have 5G thoughts and I am Magneto

struct: i would not mind having 5G

Astrobytes: Bill Gates speaks to me through my arm and I have intimate knowledge of Deep State activities.

Astrobytes: Honestly, the conspiracies are hilarious

Marchete: you intimate with him?

Marchete: wow 5G is amazing

codeing: connect 4 and oware are cool, but don't you know a soft app ?

codeing: software ?

codeing: jacek ?

sprkrd: what do you mean a software?

codeing: hmm

Westicles: he wants something for his phone

codeing: sure

codeing: or personal computer

Westicles: a game that will help learn programming

Astrobytes: 5g of most things is enough for a good... oh nvm

codeing: yes

sprkrd: you want a game?

codeing: game of logic

sprkrd: spacechem

codeing: lemme check

codeing: seem cool

sprkrd: also infinifactory, factorio, and of course space engineers

codeing: hmm

sprkrd: any game by zachtronics

Astrobytes: TIS-100

Astrobytes: yes

sprkrd: yeah, TIS-100 indeed

Astrobytes: any

sprkrd: also kerbal space program

codeing: cool

sprkrd: and i'm gonna stop there, plenty of games already :D

jacek: or openttd

codeing: thx

Astrobytes: never tried Kerbal actually

sprkrd: I have not tried Kerbal myself, either. I have plenty with Factorio, Spacechem and Space Engineers, I don't want to fall into the rabbit hole of yet another game :joy:

sprkrd: But I have seen a couple of videos of KSP and it looks pretty amazing

Marchete: city skylines

Marchete: cities*

Astrobytes: MSmits plays Space Engineers too right?

sprkrd: yeah, he's a big fan

sprkrd: it was his excuse to learn C# if I remember correctly

Astrobytes: I haven't actually played that either, though I know more about it

Astrobytes: Yes, correct

Astrobytes: And shader programming

Astrobytes: I liked Opus Magnum from Zachtronics when I needed a break from actually writing things

sprkrd: Opus Magnum's received a lot of praise, but unfortunately I haven't tried it

sprkrd: Many people say it's their best game

Astrobytes: It's actually very cool. Same metrics for performance as the other games, it's very polished

Astrobytes: But sometimes you're more in a TIS-100 or Exapunks mood

MSmits: yep learned C# for space engineers

jacek: polished eh

sprkrd: :joy:

sprkrd: it took a while, but I finally understood where you're getting at

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF3i_xeC1aQ

MSmits: this is one of the silly things i was up to with scripting and modding

MSmits: accurate gravity simulation

sprkrd: that looks cool :D

sprkrd: and the mod looks very nice

MSmits: I also wrote a mod that used marching cubes algorithm to project asteroids

MSmits: and created models of grids

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7-XIMny60

sprkrd: how do you do the actual checking whether there's a chunk of asteroid in a voxel? does the API provide you that functionality?

MSmits: if the game is running on your computer and the asteroid is rendered (within 10 km i think)

Astrobytes: Don't forget the sales opportunity of Your Sphere MSmits :)

MSmits: oh right, but that was unity, not space engineers

Astrobytes: Still apllicable

Astrobytes: *applicable

MSmits: sure, yes that was also C#

MSmits: the holo projector mod was actually used by a few thousand players

MSmits: but it broke on some patch

MSmits: some guy paid me to fix it which i did

MSmits: but then it broke again a few patches later

Astrobytes: looked very nice, I think I only saw your marching cubes one

MSmits: the channel also has a bunch of videos with me making weapons and targeting them

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InOfbI3tIbg

sprkrd: yeah, I've seen you're quite the influencer

MSmits: this one was pretty cook. a swarm of scripted 1 thruster bombs

MSmits: cool

sprkrd: oh wow

sprkrd: 2015

Astrobytes: looks more like a bomb than a cruise missile lol

sprkrd: you've been in this business a long time, mr. smith

MSmits: yes, the cruise missile was another video

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcQump_jPI8

MSmits: this one

Astrobytes: Still watching the other one, very cool

MSmits: yeah they are all poorly coded C# scripts, these arent mods

MSmits: thats just what the normal game allows

MSmits: which is what makes space engineers an awesome game

MSmits: you can place a programmable block and code it in game

Astrobytes: scriptable games are always fun

MSmits: in a really poor ide

Astrobytes: meh, fook that

Marchete: checklist for evil scientist

Marchete: cruise missile - check

Marchete: sharks with lasers?

Astrobytes: he'll need to team up with me for shark lasers

MSmits: I did make a robot, does that count

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWxt9m7CEhA

MSmits: it didnt do anything though, just looked cool

Default avatar.png kysty: is there a way to see which lap you are on in coders strike back?

Astrobytes: very lul-ish

sprkrd: MSmits like Boston Dynamics!!

MSmits: yeah except it cant walk

Marchete: well, a giant robot

sprkrd: kysty from the code, no, no until you get to gold league

Marchete: hell yes, right to the list

MSmits: oh, another evil scientist one

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cccVaJ77XMA

MSmits: think this was one of my first

MSmits: it makes a wheel of missles, then explodes the center part and launches them all

Marchete: just add a nuclear warheaad and you are good to go

Astrobytes: Can we implant this in a shark?

sprkrd: I think they're called just "warheads", they don't specify whether they're nuclear or not

MSmits: yeah thats right

MSmits: I preferred using normal stone ore though

MSmits: accelerating with gravity generators

Astrobytes: Effective

MSmits: unfortunately other servers would delete them as rubble

Astrobytes: lol

sprkrd: you don't strike me as the type who goes on-line

MSmits: nah i didnt much, but sometimes people told me about stuff they tried

Astrobytes: highly accelerated rubble is surely as destructive as any other weaponry

MSmits: this is a really short video where i experimented with graphics modding

MSmits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIcQUcdOMpg

MSmits: wormholes

MSmits: never finished it though

Astrobytes: Thank god that wasn't emh style

MSmits: lol

MSmits: i would not do that :P

Astrobytes: are those potatoes

MSmits: those are stone ore thingies

Astrobytes: They're potatoes now

MSmits: sure ok

Astrobytes: :P

MSmits: unfortunately i could not use this for ships

Astrobytes: Nice though

Astrobytes: Why?

MSmits: because they are complicated objects consisting of many parts

MSmits: it would just all teleport at once

Astrobytes: Oh I see

MSmits: would look silly

MSmits: if I had not found CG I would still be making silly weapons in SE

MSmits: or stuff in unity i guess

Astrobytes: Well, I think we're all glad you found CG, SEs loss

MSmits: me too :)

sprkrd: I'm leaving now, good night everyone :)

MSmits: gn sprkrd!

Astrobytes: goodnight, all the best :)

sprkrd: idem ^^

Astrobytes: :D

Default avatar.png JoshTheCodingMaster: hi

Marchete: you can't compare multis and challenges with all these script games

Default avatar.png JoshTheCodingMaster: yes

Marchete: some AI "fights" are very interesting

Default avatar.png JoshTheCodingMaster: uh huh

Astrobytes: I don't believe anyone was comparing the two Marchete

Astrobytes: Just purely on an MSmits basis

Marchete: it's about the competitive part

Marchete: most of us improved tenfold

Marchete: in algorithms and AI

Astrobytes: Yeah for sure

Marchete: being alone in these games

Astrobytes: In that respect, definitely

Marchete: you don't have any real objective

Marchete: do crazy stuff

Marchete: he'd miss us even if he never went to CG...

MSmits: yeah scriptable games are different, but SE goes quite far with this compared to other games, i dont think there's anything like it. I think you could build a board out of blocks, create an AI controlling a gravity engine and play checkers against it

MSmits: or let it play against itself

Marchete: minecraft seems similar

MSmits: only if you mod it

MSmits: it doesnt have scripting in a vanilla version

Astrobytes: Yeah but minecraft is a lot more long-winded afaik

MSmits: unless you mean that redstone stuff

Astrobytes: I never cared for it myself

Astrobytes: (minecraft)

MSmits: another huge difference

MSmits: minecraft has no physics

MSmits: stuff you make and control in SE has newtonian phyusic

MSmits: physics

MSmits: which makes AI much more interesting

Astrobytes: true

MSmits: mine craft is also mostly 2D

MSmits: as in, the world is infinite in 2 dimensions and in the 3rd it's finite

MSmits: i think like 130 blocks or so?

MSmits: SE is real 3D

RoboStac: so remind me never to think I can quickly test something to do with crazy int things :(

AllYourTrees: :scream:

struct: what hapened?

Marchete: sorry robo :(

Marchete: my fault

struct: I won 2 games vs robo?

struct: what sorcery is this

RoboStac: yeah, either I'm overflowing with new maths or the accuracy loss is too much

Marchete: a pity

RoboStac: though I did just beat msmits

RoboStac: so it's possible I might just leave it

Marchete: it was "faster" at least?

RoboStac: it's about 10% faster

Marchete: to do tests myself

Marchete: only?

RoboStac: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/3f1b3aaf-6f89-4ec6-8df4-5288cd2e65e8

Marchete: from float?

RoboStac: no

RoboStac: from the int16 with 32 bit additions

Marchete: ahh

Marchete: bummer

Marchete: I thought near 2x

RoboStac: that's time to do 10000000 inferences

Marchete: because half size

RoboStac: and then the ouput from each (9 policy / 1 value)

Marchete: seems more inaccurate, yes

MSmits: did it stop using the same opening RoboStac?

RoboStac: it does look to have switched off the one you mentioned, yeah

MSmits: cool

struct: I think its a good time for resubmit :)

Marchete: so int8 is better?

Marchete: I always think that only 256 values are too low...

RoboStac: seemed to work for oware

RoboStac: my c4 training hasn't gone as well

RoboStac: but I did find I'd accidently made the network size smaller so I've restarted to make it fair

Marchete: but according to your stats you can do near 30k sims/50ms?

Marchete: that's way faster than I can achieve

Marchete: 3x faster with much bigger net

RoboStac: that's just nn speed though (using 1 gamestate and predicting as fast as possible, no mcts)

RoboStac: it tends to be around 20-25k per turn in reality

struct: you seem to get 1st again

Marchete: ahh ok

struct: might not be bugged

Marchete: even with that is reaaly fast :)

Marchete: aaaaaaa

RoboStac: yeah, the occasional wins against msmits help a lot to make up for the extra losses

RoboStac: think it's just less accurate rather than overflowing though

struct: still I never won so many games vs you

struct: might be luck on my side though

Default avatar.png stef06: hey all

Marchete: sometimes when stars, weights and cpuct align I can win a couple

struct: ill resubmit to climb up a bit

RoboStac: I can easily switch back :)

struct: true

RoboStac: going to leave it and try the 8bit version once it's had more training time tommorow though

struct: still a massive improvement from the old NN you had when I joined c4

RoboStac: only about 30x as many moves checked per turn :)

struct: makes sense

struct: my ai with 5ms was around 3-4 ranks lower

RoboStac: convolution looks really good but is so slow on cpu

Marchete: I flattened it

Marchete: not that slow

Marchete: as originally thought

Marchete: but maybe not worth it vs a faster dense?

RoboStac: doesn't seem to be

Marchete: in c4 you tried both pure Dense and Conv?

RoboStac: yeah

Marchete: do you pit them?

Marchete: just as a curiosity :D

RoboStac: no

Marchete: so Conv2d was better?

RoboStac: dense does much better on the leaderboard

Marchete: ahh

Marchete: bummer

RoboStac: I think the same number of iterations conv would be better

Marchete: my bot is very sensitive to mcts iterations

Marchete: it's noticeable

RoboStac: especially on c4 when the endgame is a lot about solving number of moves left it struggled

Marchete: :(

struct: the problem of my bot is that is very bad early game

Marchete: I wanted to try Conv, I just finished the layer definition and worked good

RoboStac: I've still got conv as better in breakthrough and yavalath

struct: I dont think NNs face this problem

struct: isnt endgame also important on breakthrough?

RoboStac: yes, but it's endgame in a pattern around your best pawn

struct: actually I remembered the paper I read and I remember end game is not that important

RoboStac: in c4 you win by making moves in entirely random places that don't lose until the opponent is forced to play where he'll lose

struct: game is decided early actually

Marchete: I wouldn't say random

Marchete: as it can be solved

Marchete: with enough time

MSmits: workin on it. 72 million nodes and 6GB so far

Marchete: :thumbsup:

MSmits: Robo is right that with a 1 or 7 start, there are no winning moves, only draws and losses

MSmits: so you do indeed wait for someone to make a mistake

MSmits: but there are a lot more mistakes than draws

struct: is 0 8 proven loss?

MSmits: I have 4.5 million games in that and it's at 32%

MSmits: WR

MSmits: seems pretty certain to be a loss, but not proven no

MSmits: 5 is best counter

MSmits: (to 0)

MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/ef0820b9-70d2-4ded-8ca1-31b8f6ee95fb

MSmits: i maybe need to fix my exploration parameter so that it makes more visits in initially bad moves

MSmits: still though, a visit is an entire game played as on CG. So 4.5 million is a lot

struct: each visit is 1 solved node?

struct: or is just the expanded nodes?

MSmits: 1 visit is 1 new node made from a node thats not yet fully expanded

MSmits: sometimes that new node is an immediate solve when a game is run, sometimes it doesnt solve

MSmits: so the tree stops at nodes that are immediately solved when a game is played from there

MSmits: for wins/losses it's around depth 30 or so

MSmits: for draws much deeper

MSmits: 40/45

MSmits: so that makes it quite hard to solve, as it seems to be solving towards a draw

MSmits: I think if i went full focus on move 3 and pretended this game had no steal, I could solve it

MSmits: but that doesnt help my book any :P

Default avatar.png yes420: Does anyone know how to stop the min command from reporting errors, since right now I have a program that includes using the min command to find the lowest number in a list, but when the list is empty, the min command just stops the code, which I don't want

WhaIe: @yes420 if you're talking about python, you can add an argument default=X. For example, min([], default=0) will return 0

Default avatar.png shaurya_123: hi anybody online

FrancoisBaveye: Nope