Chat:World/2021-05-19

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Chainman: pewpew

Chainman: roar

Xoast: so who are the bots here

Xoast: the anchorman guy

JohnCM: can c++ declare tuples like this: tuple <int, int> a = {1, 2};

JohnCM: or must you always do make_tuple(1,2)

Default avatar.png ngiokweng: hi

Default avatar.png ArtLiteracyStory: hi

Mgs25: @JohnCM you can just curly init

Mgs25: it will work

Default avatar.png ArtLiteracyStory: I'm addicted to this site

Default avatar.png ArtLiteracyStory: so fun

JohnCM: ok thanks

JohnCM: actually for stl containers, most can do curly init right?

Mgs25: yup! C++17 is very flexible in this aspect of curly bracket initialization

JohnCM: i'm trying to like code c++ in the most pythonic way ever

Mgs25: good luck lol

Default avatar.png MysticZarah: helloello

JohnCM: haha python has spoilt me, now whenever i need to do list comprehension, i have to code 3 lines in c++

JohnCM: and i have to convert to binary myself in c++

JohnCM: oh wait, i just realized there is itoa

Default avatar.png Alihussain: hi bro iam new here

Default avatar.png onesimpletoo: path3 =

Default avatar.png MysticZarah: O!

Default avatar.png MysticZarah: I thing i just realized the issue with the code validation i have been having. somehow.

Default avatar.png MysticZarah: wait then that doesnt explain why the other validation got fixed

Default avatar.png dth8906: Hamburger17!

Default avatar.png dth8906: with some fries!

Default avatar.png spjass: How do I zoom in / out in the web IDE? I accidentally somehow zoomed out on my code and zooming on the webpage (with ctrl+) doesn't help as it zooms in too close with other content on the page.

magmasa: when you click inside ide ctrl+mouse scroll works

The_xD: ctrl +

derjack: good morning

Default avatar.png spjass: Ah, thanks. ctrl+mouse scroll worked, control + (plus-key) didn't

nam4.nguyen: hi does CG provide certificate or something after contest?

nam4.nguyen: just curious

derjack: participation badge?

nam4.nguyen: Oh where can I find it?

AntiSquid: you could go to contests and print what's in the view report link

AntiSquid: but no badge or anything like that

AntiSquid: you can't even display full code in your view report :thinking:

AntiSquid: wonder who it's intended for

nam4.nguyen: ah I just wanna know more about CG

nam4.nguyen: I'm new here and don't wanna miss a thing

derjack: :+1:

Default avatar.png Alihussain: hi

Default avatar.png Alihussain: hi

Default avatar.png Alihussain: :slight_smile:

Default avatar.png DraterSimo: hello world!

whay: hi

Ajaiy2: hi

KiwiTae: @nam4.nguyen I could stay awake just to hearr you breathin

KiwiTae: :no_mouth:

KalamariKing: When are ranks re-evaluated for clashes

KalamariKing: I know once a day but WHEN

KiwiTae: points are once a day, rank is everytime you play

Default avatar.png DraterSimo: playinf with C and python , its really funny to play games with both of them

derjack: cython?

KalamariKing: p

gilufin: cython is the best

Default avatar.png DraterSimo: hahaha

Default avatar.png DraterSimo: python is not very challenging

Default avatar.png DraterSimo: C is

Default avatar.png Dev1234: heyy

codeing: hey everyone

codeing: how to notify someone by message ?

codeing: something like '@'

codeing: or ?

jacek: codeing dunno

codeing: how you do this ?

jacek: if I only knew codeing

codeing: jacek ?

jacek: :tada:

Default avatar.png JayAhuja: ?

codeing: message jacek send me are in red

codeing: color

jacek: yes, i see it as red

codeing: hmh

codeing: see xhat ?

codeing: what *

davilla: I wish it was a different color, red is hard to read

codeing: sure

codeing: /me

davilla: yellow would be more thematic

Default avatar.png Knowdaboi39: hi

KalamariKing: Hello

KalamariKing: Wait you mean to tell me there are almost 3 million clash-of-coders

jacek: 3 millions too many

Default avatar.png BorisBarca: hey guys, I was wandering can you do a 1v1 on spring challenge but we are both out of top 1000

Default avatar.png BorisBarca: *wondering

KalamariKing: jac​ek I had thought so since there aren't 3mil people here, but I just ran into someone in 2.7 millionth place...?

jrke: KalamariKing there are 2.3 million coders on CG then how you could ran 2.7 million

KalamariKing: i seriously don't know

jrke: and only 250,097 clashers are there

KalamariKing: I know

KalamariKing: I've seen the numbers

KalamariKing: That's why I questioned

TBali: Once I was 2nd in a one-horse-race

jrke: you are 230 i can see in clash ranking

KalamariKing: Yep

Default avatar.png Bitwolf.Jr: join noobs

Default avatar.png zibizz1: Can I somway disable shortext code? My language can't beat phyton in that

AntiSquid: don't be rude Bitwolf.Jr

jacek: zibizz1 no

KalamariKing: Python is sometimes unfair in shortest

KalamariKing: Usually the winner is python and/or ruby, except for your occasional bash

jacek: use the right tool for rith problem

KalamariKing: Exactly

KalamariKing: Take the time to learn python or ruby

Uljahn: or play bot programming instead (the right job for the right tool)

derjack: got back that place in oware. phew

KalamariKing: The placement shown on profile hover, that's sitewide, right?

KalamariKing: As in not challenge-specific

derjack: its global ranking, yes

jrke: oh jacek first in oware

jrke: gratz

derjack: :innocent:

AntiSquid: stop playing clash :P

AntiSquid: ah chat scroll .

AntiSquid: was replying to an older message

struct: jacek nn?

derjack: as always

Default avatar.png post4k: Is there a place here on codingame where I can practice their interview-style process? multiple questions of certain languages, and various coding challenges.

Default avatar.png post4k: im asking since my next interview will be on this platform

Default avatar.png post4k: :)

derjack: you may try asking that on discord

Uljahn: maybe this https://www.codingame.com/work/

struct: I would solve some puzzles to understand how the platform works

Default avatar.png post4k: yea, exactly, I think the free trial is what I want, thanks !

Default avatar.png post4k: yea, done that already :)

struct: I think its a similar style

struct: Maybe you also have to answer some questions

struct: idk, never done it

Default avatar.png post4k: well not exactly, the interviews have multiple choice questions and stuff as well

Default avatar.png post4k: so, its like, 20 something questions, and 5 or something coding challenges (usually 15 minutes each)

Default avatar.png post4k: ive done one before

[CG]Thibaud: post4k a free trial won't help

[CG]Thibaud: best way to practice is to do puzzles on CodinGame

[CG]Thibaud: before taking your test, you'll be able to pass a tutorial to check how the test platform works (really close to CodinGame)

Default avatar.png post4k: @[CG]Thibaud yea, now I noticed that the free trial is just a login to codingame. I did one of those tutorials before, and what I wondered was if I could try some more of those before my interview. Seems not. Anyways, thanks.

ZarthaxX: jrke congratz on top 100!

whay: hiiiiiii

whay: world

whay: hello

whay: ???

whay: offfff

whay: :expressionless:

JohnCM: what's the difference between codingame for work and the normal codingame

whay: idk

Krakenus00: idk, maybe privacy

Default avatar.png ibrahimakkaya: Hey,World

Krakenus00: something like private leaderboards

whay: im arab

Krakenus00: or maybe even unique puzzles

JohnCM: i'm thinking if it'll be something like leetcode

whay: kiev

Krakenus00: ah, nope, that's just a platform for recruiters

Krakenus00: You pay money to see nerds solving puzzles

jacek: nerdfans

whay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4c87YVyjw

whay: watch

Krakenus00: https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

Krakenus00: watch

whay: haha lol

eulerscheZahl: JohnCM 02:59PM what's the difference between codingame for work and the normal codingame

eulerscheZahl: CG for work is a recruiting platform

eulerscheZahl: you apply at company X which is a partner of CG. X gives you a link where you do some tests (multiple choice, coding tasks)

eulerscheZahl: dbdr the cotnest is over

eulerscheZahl: contest*

jacek: :thinking:

dbdr: contest is dead, long live the multi

dbdr: eulerscheZahl, congrats on being the first to ever reach 200k CP ;)

ZarthaxX: yeah gz toad!


ZarthaxX: took 1st again :)

ZarthaxX: he got 200k with royale too tho :thinking:

eulerscheZahl: 1st by a devastating landslide victory

JohnCM: i see, so the coding tasks and multiple choice is decided by the recruiting platform right

eulerscheZahl: 22 points

struct: othello are free points

eulerscheZahl: that's more than 0.01% ahead

dbdr: Royala will never catch up such lead

struct: oh no you lost your certificates

struct: https://i.imgur.com/rwvjbnH.png

eulerscheZahl: as board games get more and more players you'll soon be first dbdr

eulerscheZahl: I never wanted them, that's fine

Twelve0: Hey , maybe you talked about it before but was Minimax really the optimal algo for spring challenge

dbdr: no

struct: Dont think so

eulerscheZahl: reading the post mortems there was one player in top20 doing it

Twelve0: because I don't remember anyone talking about using it

dbdr: that tag is a mistake I would say

struct: Missing bitboard tag

eulerscheZahl: right, the tag. I was wondering what it's doing there

Twelve0: so was it beam search and MCTS ?

eulerscheZahl: mostly

dbdr: rather, yes

eulerscheZahl: and the mighty NN

Twelve0: NN something like genetic algorithm ?

whay: hi

struct: No, Neural network

whay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4c87YVyjw

whay: watch

eulerscheZahl: why?

Twelve0: so they train it locally with a NN?

whay: whatch pls

whay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4c87YVyjw

eulerscheZahl: https://forum.codingame.com/t/spring-challenge-2021-feedbacks-strategies/190849/67?u=eulerschezahl

eulerscheZahl: the neural network for the contest

eulerscheZahl: stop it whay

eulerscheZahl: ok, struct lost patience first

Twelve0: i have no idea how it is done for CG, any resourses where I can read about it

eulerscheZahl: did you see my link?

MSmits: i think it's unclear what search algorithm was best for spring contest. The winner did not win because of search, but because of eval... aka the NN

eulerscheZahl: 118 likes. that must be the most liked post on the entire forum

jacek: also https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/neural-network-ressources/1667

Twelve0: Oh okay I'll read it thanks euler

eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/forum/t/code4life-in-multi/2823 this one has 115 likes "only"

MSmits: beamsearch was suboptimal i think because it did not take into account opponent very well

MSmits: but minimax, mcts, duct, all fine i think

struct: yeap

struct: All enemy predictions i made didnt work

Twelve0: I was finished 167 in legend without any sim or search , ( i guess a lot of people used hust huestics too )

struct: Instead I tried to decrease opp suns with eval

MSmits: well i should clarify, beamsearch is definitely enough to get into legend or to do quite well (euler)

eulerscheZahl: the rather stupid grow-it-all was the best I could do

MSmits: I just mean you cant be 1st with it

whay: Your procedures are very tight

struct: I gave you a chance

MSmits: uh oh whay is flirting

struct: This chat is not the place for those types of discussions

MSmits: yup

MSmits: he's PMing me now, my own fault

eulerscheZahl: i got a PM too

MSmits: you can be more snarky, you handle it :P

Twelve0: what's PM??

struct: personal message

jacek: post mortem

eulerscheZahl: "I was finished 167 in legend without any sim or search" it's really out of line for CodinGame to have such a huge legend league as it happened this time

**PatrickMcGinnisII is a PM

MSmits: I actually think it wasnt as bad as people feared when gold boss was made

eulerscheZahl: wait, it's personal message? I always thought it's private

eulerscheZahl: squirrel in my room

struct: maybe is private

struct: its private

struct: I was wrong

Twelve0: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/am-and-pm.html

eulerscheZahl: ante meridiem and post meridiem

struct: https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/PM

MSmits: you spell post mortem wrong

struct: Pacman

PatrickMcGinnisII: MSmits it's a greenwicht hing

Twelve0: Peoplemover

eulerscheZahl: ok, that's enough

PatrickMcGinnisII: yunguns say DM...direct msg

BlaiseEbuth: Parmigiano Mozarella :3

MSmits: in everquest it was a "tell"

whay: You are a dictator eulerschezahl

MSmits: /tell

eulerscheZahl: i'm not there yet but working on it

BlaiseEbuth: To gulag !

eulerscheZahl: struct :rofl:

Westicles: Do the NN approaches use up all the 100ms turn time?

MSmits: Westicles sure why not

MSmits: if they search

MSmits: they still build a tree

MSmits: do rollouts

PatrickMcGinnisII: I didn't think there was enought ime to run the millions of sims to make an NN, reCurse proved me wrong

MSmits: so more time = more rollouts

Westicles: Ah okay, I wondered if beam would catch up with longer times

MSmits: beam?

BlaiseEbuth: More rollouts = more autobots

Westicles: beam search

MSmits: you mean with greater width

MSmits: beam has a huge limitation, it would do better with less time actually

eulerscheZahl: NN is about finding a good scoring in a chaotic game

MSmits: because with more time you dont solve the problem that you ignore opponent

MSmits: so at some point your bot just cant get better with more time

Marchete: beam is shortsighted

Twelve0: guys what do you think about the difficulty comparing spring with last fall ?

Marchete: and ignores enemy a lot

MSmits: same as GA

struct: ofc there is enough time to play 1 mill games

MSmits: mcts/duct/minimax approaches get better with time

struct: I ran around 330k games in 3 hours

MSmits: and they can be combined with NN

Westicles: I see. So really the only way to get rid of NN is reduce max file size

Marchete: hands down

struct: on the ec2 machine

BlaiseEbuth: Was more difficult for the servers Twelve0

Marchete: MCTS is good by the statistical tree it makes

MSmits: Westicles not really. You can make a NN with only 2kb, it would not eval as well, but it would also be faster

Marchete: pure vanilla MCTS isn't good usually

eulerscheZahl: how do you define difficulty Twelve0?

MSmits: imagine, you can make a good minimax with only 6 or 8 parameters in most boardgames

struct: Game was very simple to sim

MSmits: how many params can you fit in 2 kb?

struct: easier than previous challenge

eulerscheZahl: for me it's "how difficult is it top reach top X on the leaderboard". which is always pretty much the same

Marchete: imo you can use NN also in minimax

MSmits: yes

MSmits: you can

MSmits: thats my point

Marchete: minimax policy + value

Marchete: policy for move ordering

Marchete: and value as score

MSmits: NN will always be better than regular minimax, even with tiny file size

Marchete: stockfish NNUE is like that?

Marchete: I haven't reviewed

Twelve0: eulerscheZahl I don't know, like the complexity of the game rules

Marchete: but the damn a0 has so many little things

eulerscheZahl: that was low in both the recent and previous contest

Marchete: noise here and there

MSmits: you can apply them gradually Marchete

Marchete: little things

struct: stockfish NN was updated

MSmits: like you can start with a value NN and later add policy

struct: btw

eulerscheZahl: pacman was a little more complex but still feasible

Marchete: no

Wontonimo: man, the chat is abuzz with nn

struct: https://github.com/glinscott/nnue-pytorch/blob/master/docs/nnue.md

Marchete: I prefer policy + value

MSmits: yes i know Marchete, but i mean when learning things

Marchete: I thought about the policy1+policy2+value

Wontonimo: it's as if it's done well recently or something

Marchete: as recurs_e said

MSmits: no need to do everything at once

Marchete: but I don't know

struct: new network architecture

struct: scroll to the end

struct: Architectures and new directions

MSmits: Marchete would oware have 7 outputs with value + policy?

MSmits: 1 value output + 6 policy outputs?

Wontonimo: if the action space is small enough, and you don't want to do everything at once, then start with a value network only

jacek: Marchete NNUE is only value

Wontonimo: if you are combining with search

Wontonimo: if you don't have search, then do policy first

MSmits: the nice thing about policy is that it guides exploration so you dont do obviously bad moves on low visit nodes

Wontonimo: ^^ exactly !

MSmits: it's like doing mcts with a minimax eval to guide exploration

MSmits: this is a thing

MSmits: it's not really NN only

Wontonimo: i was just commenting on your comment MSmits that you don't have to do everything at once

MSmits: oh right

jacek: MSmits yeah, oware has 7 outputs, value and 6 moves

MSmits: yeah you dont

Marchete: ask jacek and robo MSmits :D

MSmits: cool jacek, got it then

Marchete: I'd say yes

MSmits: jacek doesnt use policy, but he knows yeah

Marchete: I know

struct: Are you gonna try NN MSmits?

MSmits: yeah, i am

MSmits: will be experimenting with oware

struct: oh nice

jacek: i somewhat sped up my NN and took back my place in oware

JohnCM: but is pytorch included in codingame?

MSmits: good job

struct: One day I expect to do the same, but Im still a begginer on this NN stuff

MSmits: though it's really hard to say with those 4 NN's, there's soooo much RPS going on

struct: no JohnCM

Marchete: My NN jacekmax wasn't that good

MSmits: dont know which is better

Marchete: heuristic was better

Wontonimo: so, my $0.02 is: if you just want to get your feet wet, do value+search OR policy w/o search for games with a small action space.

JohnCM: i use neural networks a lot for my research, but it's all in python

MSmits: Wontonimo oware is one of those games

Marchete: fenri_r did CSB without any search

Marchete: just pure action critic

MSmits: the game is even solvable if you add some ruls to avoid loops

MSmits: rules

JohnCM: actually for games like backgammon, only one linear layer of NN is sufficient

MSmits: I doubt it's much more complex than our connect 4 version

jacek: oh cool discussion going on and i have to leave, meh

JohnCM: like it's more important to do the TD-learning

Wontonimo: JohnCM - you can export your trained weights and import them into CG and execute them with matrix math. no backprop needed during the game execution

MSmits: jacek i am sure it will be redone :)

jacek: yeah, dont forget good training pipeline

JohnCM: ya i'm thinking that i would need to code it out myself to use it in CG

Marchete: as if it was that easy

JohnCM: like code out the NN code

Marchete: function loss for example

Marchete: isn't that trivial

MSmits: what do you mean Marchete

Marchete: how do you tell your NN how is your loss

Marchete: policy+value

Marchete: you train, but what is the target?

MSmits: oh, well i have a place to start with jacek's method

MSmits: he does a mcts with 200x rollout and eval of all children (using randomized NN)

MSmits: then his target is the average value, not sure for policy

MSmits: maybe the target is best action

MSmits: basically, you take all visited gamestates

Marchete: https://medium.com/oracledevs/lessons-from-alphazero-part-4-improving-the-training-target-6efba2e71628

jacek: policy is set of visits likes {0, 1/5, 2/5, 1/5, 1/5}

MSmits: eval with NN and compare with eval over 200 rollouts

Marchete: you need to get a loss value for that

MSmits: oh yeah, nice way

MSmits: yes Marchete. Loss is the difference

Marchete: policy:{0, 1/5, 2/5, 1/5, 1/5}, value 0.33

Marchete: what is loss?

MSmits: the difference between the output of the NN and the result of the search

jacek: look for softmax loss, -target * log(p)

MSmits: I had a chat with an expert that i saved Marchete

Marchete: I'm looking at a0 loss functions

MSmits: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/6e67c0c8-6484-4e05-9061-cce6e4e8a7f9

Marchete: I don't see the loss

Marchete: I'm looking in a0 or actor critic

Marchete: that seems similar

Marchete: you need to minimize two kind of losses at the same time

Marchete: a softmax + tanh (for example)

MSmits: how do you not see the loss?

MSmits: you have a search value

MSmits: thats the target

MSmits: you have a gamestate you can input into the nn

MSmits: thats the value you use to calculate loss

MSmits: loss = search result - gamestate value from NN lookup

MSmits: this is the value loss

Marchete: you need to define that function

MSmits: search result is just the value calculated with mcts

MSmits: it's wins/visits

Marchete: k*sum(policyloss)+l*sum(valueloss)

Marchete: what is more important?

MSmits: can't you backpropagate them separately?

MSmits: they are separate output

Marchete: afaik you have only 1 loss value

MSmits: well you're talking about using policy and i am just guessing here. I still have to do this with just value to get started

Marchete: it's not that I don't know that policy and value are compared to the NN output given some gamestate

Marchete: but the innards of what to give as "loss"

MSmits: but do you understand what i mean when it is just value?

Marchete: no

MSmits: ok

MSmits: lets forget policy then

MSmits: you have a NN

MSmits: roll it out 200 times

MSmits: evaling all children and backpropagating the results, like you would in a normal search

MSmits: your gamestate will get a value from this

MSmits: it's a bad nn, random parameters and all that

MSmits: doesnt matter

MSmits: you still get a value

MSmits: this value will on average be better than a value from 1 rollout right?

MSmits: at least near the end of the game when its near solved

MSmits: this value is better, so you use it as a target

MSmits: you keep running games, with, say 200 rollouts

MSmits: each time you use the average value as a training target for your nn

MSmits: for every gamestate you encountered during the game

MSmits: (for oware, like 100 states per game)

MSmits: so 1 game gives you 100 training states with an average value as target

MSmits: basically you train the NN to give as result the same result as its previous version did after 200 rollouts

Marchete: it depends on what you assume as value

MSmits: so 200 rollouts become 1 (ideally)

Marchete: i.e. you perfectly can do:

MSmits: the value is just what the NN outputs, some number between 0 and 1

MSmits: doesnt matter what it means, higher is better

MSmits: and over 200 rollouts it's an average, still between 0 and 1

Marchete: save a bufferReplay with moves

Marchete: end rollout

Marchete: backpropagate win loss as value

Marchete: policy is % visits per root child

Marchete: of the MCTS

MSmits: ye i dont know about policy really

Marchete: simplistic policy (and Robo said that too)

MSmits: I just know what i just explained is what makes jacek best at oware...

Marchete: is using number of visits

Marchete: to make a %

Marchete: I know what he does

MSmits: right

Marchete: but also it's kind of valid

MSmits: well the % thing makes sense, but i didnt think about it much

Marchete: go to endgame

Marchete: take the 0/1

Marchete: and apply it to the whole moveset

Marchete: 1 for winner player

Marchete: 0 for the other

Marchete: in my initial idea

MSmits: but thats a bit dangerous maybe? You'd evaluate all 100 gamestates as 1 if you won

Marchete: I'd review what papers and a0 said

MSmits: is this what ao does?

Marchete: I think

MSmits: just all states of a win are 1?

reCurse: If you want my two cents

Marchete: we want!

MSmits: of course reCurse

reCurse: Set your expectations to the minimum

reCurse: Get something really stupid to work

reCurse: I'd say a0 is not the best to get started

reCurse: Q learning though, probably

MSmits: that was my plan, jacek's plan is not stupid, but quite simple, i know how to do it

reCurse: Getting a CSB runner through Q learning is not too difficult and rewarding

reCurse: I started there, would recommend

Marchete: actor critic is harder?

KalamariKing: Who thinks I can get top 200

reCurse: Yes

MSmits: whats actor critic again?

reCurse: Training a policy

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: thats the thing though, jacek doesnt use policy for oware

reCurse: Well "technically" you also train a policy with Q learning

reCurse: But let's ignore those details

Marchete: jacek "infers" a policy MSmits

MSmits: but only uses value in his bot

Marchete: if you apply the value to children

Marchete: == policy

Marchete: you need to "open" all children

Marchete: evaluate

Marchete: to recover what it could be the policy

MSmits: well thats not exactly the same

MSmits: in use at least

MSmits: but if you mean the bot tends to choose good moves and policy helps with that too, then yes

Marchete: no

Marchete: I mean jacekmax does it

MSmits: oh right, he keeps the max

MSmits: but he doesnt just use jacekmax

Marchete: expansion: expand the node leaf by every possible children (every possible moves), add eval to every children

MSmits: he also uses EPT

MSmits: with NN

Marchete: not about the "max" part

Marchete: but this

MSmits: right

MSmits: but that's just the first visit

MSmits: doesnt count for much in exploration

Marchete: ...as alphazero does with policy

MSmits: sure but policy gives a bit more difference in visits

MSmits: low policy moves get visited much later dont they?

Marchete: yes

MSmits: if you eval all children, you maybe visit a good child 3 times before you visit the bad child again

MSmits: i think policy generally makes more of a difference

Wontonimo: totally off topic : anyone know if there is a referee available for Code Royale ? I don't see it in the list of brutaltester refs

MSmits: but hey, this discussion is why jacek always says he doesnt see the need for policy

MSmits: because what you say does make sense Marchete

MSmits: but generally policy seems to work better

Marchete: I mean they are similar, not exact

MSmits: yes

jacek: im back

MSmits: which is why just doing value is a much easier place to start :)

jacek: and i dont use policy

jacek: the 'policy' youre referring to is 1-ply value search, if im correct

Marchete: yes

jacek: theyre not the same, are they

Marchete: no

Marchete: they are "similar"

Marchete: or at least I see it that way

struct: Wontonimo https://github.com/csj/code-royale

Wontonimo: imo policy is great for something with a huge branching, like GO. It's also good for an informed rollout for some of the depth.

Marchete: anyways I have no idea

MSmits: the effects are similar in that you will visit high policy children more often and you will also visit high value children more often

Marchete: I deviated you

MSmits: but you waste way more visits if you just use value

MSmits: as Wontonimo suggests

MSmits: oware though, has small branching

Wontonimo: but i haven't actually coded something like alphaZero yet, so all my thoughts are just that, thoughts

Marchete: value alone is easier to calculate loss

MSmits: yeah

Wontonimo: thanks for the link MSmits

RoboStac: but aren't you using tensorflow for training?

Marchete: me?

RoboStac: yeah

Marchete: yes

MSmits: I think if you want to get into NN, motivation is a big deal. If you can get something to work that helps you move on to othe rthings

Marchete: but how do combine policy + loss properly?

Marchete: I always thought TF asks for a single loss value

Marchete: not two

reCurse: MSmits words of wisdom

jacek: doesnt tensorflow calculate policy loss for you?

RoboStac: look into cross entropy loss

MSmits: yeah, well you said so in your pm also

MSmits: reCurse

Marchete: cross entropy loss

Marchete: ok

reCurse: Tensorflow calculates gradients for you

Marchete: I've read somewhere they give less weight to value part

jacek: whats the difference between cross entropy loss and softmax

reCurse: I would say though learning how the gradients are computed and backpropagated was immensely helpful for me

reCurse: But it's not necessary I guess?

jacek: in the world of import nn; nn.train();? no

Marchete: it seems that is cross-entropy what I was talking about, thanks Robo

reCurse: I've been able to understand problems and apply solutions that I wouldnt have been able to otherwise

Wontonimo: hey Marchete, you can do two loss functions at the same time in TF, let me get you a link...

reCurse: Two loss is just combined into one loss :P

jacek: the more you know, i was using 'cross-entropy loss', not 'softmax loss' in my latest policy experiments... https://www.quora.com/Is-the-softmax-loss-the-same-as-the-cross-entropy-loss

reCurse: You always start from a single loss

Marchete: so softmaxloss*k+valueloss*(1-k)

Marchete: or all together softmax+value?

reCurse: I'd say lerping is not too helpful

JFB: I wonder - maybe yuse diferent lost function in different epoch?

Wontonimo: Here Marchete https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1-aUaeIrGw7rDm1hSEBwVRo0RaKbf-IWb is a colab notebook showing that you can train 2 losses at once for different heads

reCurse: policy * X + value * Y

reCurse: Is the preferred way to look at it IMO

Marchete: ok

Wontonimo: the losses in that colab notebook are not combined, but effect different netowrks

Wontonimo: to maximize learning, the shared part of the two networks learn at the same time

reCurse: Also can be more difficult to get right

Wontonimo: ^^ +1

reCurse: I can't stress enough how important it is to start small

JFB: I do not seen the beginig of the discussion so stupid question: why do you plan to use tensorflow and not pytorch? I understund that now most people use pytoch. (I have no experience with pytorch only with tensorflow so jus ask for curiosity)

reCurse: Having those first successes is essential for motivation

reCurse: I much prefer pytorch myself

reCurse: Just pick whatever suits your fancies

kovi: just opened the chat or policy1 * x1 + policy2 * x2 + value * y in case of duct?

reCurse: You won't go wrong with tf either

MSmits: reCurse what do you like about pytorch compared to tensorflow with or without keras

reCurse: It used to be about what's now called 'eager mode' in tf

reCurse: The declarative approach kind of sucks to understand what's going on

MSmits: I see

reCurse: With pytorch you type one line and get immediate results

reCurse: So it's more natural to follow

reCurse: And with all the advances of previous years it's not that bad for performance anymore

MSmits: ah ok. Do you personally use these frameworks? Or do you still use something completely your own?

reCurse: What I would call version "1.0" of my RL pipeline was all hand-made from scratch A to Z

reCurse: Now I use pytorch and the like

MSmits: yeah i remember that

kovi: :o

MSmits: ah ok

reCurse: Like I said, understanding how it works at the lower level was immensely helpful, can't understate that

reCurse: It's like programming without understanding memory and stuff

MSmits: yeah I am not sure how it would be for me. I have a pretty good grasp on the matrix stuff and derivatives

dbdr: *can't overstate it? ;)

jacek: thats why i made xor example from scratch without numpty

reCurse: Oops.

jacek: numpy even

reCurse: Thanks dbdr

reCurse: I can't lit

dbdr: :D

Astrobytes: numpty lol

MSmits: i did that too jacek as per your advice

dbdr: it's ok reCurse, you can other stuff ;)

reCurse: Sometimes

MSmits: numpty dumpty sat on a wall

reCurse: xor is a bit boring

reCurse: Start with mnist

reCurse: It's very easy and more concrete

JFB: What is "xor" ?

kovi: but its so much easier with keras

MSmits: ^

MSmits: (answering JFB)

reCurse: Programming in python is easier

MSmits: exclusive or

reCurse: Closes you some doors though

MSmits: input 1 1 -> output 0

jacek: mnist? in c++ from scratch?

reCurse: Yes

MSmits: input 1 0 -> output 1

reCurse: That's actually how I started

jacek: :scream:

ThePoisoned1: imo

kovi: i hate that tf is not c++ native

reCurse: It's not a big deal imo

JFB: But why use numpy for xor? I expect that jacek have something different in mind that '^'

ThePoisoned1: python is just easier that other popular languages and that can make u harder to learn the others

ThePoisoned1: if u learnt python first

ThePoisoned1: the other way around is way easier

MSmits: it's also a bit difficult to learn python if you learn other languages first, goes both ways :)

ThePoisoned1: make it*

Wontonimo: tensorflow now has eager mode on by default (late response, but I love TF, so I'm plugging it)

ThePoisoned1: i started with java

kovi: but im lazy...dont want to spend months to reimplement the wheel even if it gives me insights

ThePoisoned1: but now python is jsut do whatever and kidna works

ThePoisoned1: xdd

MSmits: kovi, if you want to know the basics without doing what reCurse suggests, darkhorse shared a good book yesterday

kovi: reinvent/reimplement the wheel

MSmits: let me look it up

kovi: im ok, i did ml in udacity selfdriving

kovi: but only in workspaces

jacek: and they didnt have the wheel?

Marchete: writting a whole NN learning framework seems too overkill to me

Marchete: if TF/pytorch do it...

MSmits: neural network from scratch in python

Default avatar.png den_lakeev: guys, what does 'valid word' in scrabble means? it's made from player's letters - is it the only one condition in this game?

MSmits: is the title, or almost

kovi: some colleges did deep learning in detail...and as they told me it is "deep"...

MSmits: i'm at page 50/650 :P

JFB: :-)

struct: is it worth it MSmits?

MSmits: so far i saw nothing new for me struct, but it's quite good

Nerchio: is it from the youtube guy?

MSmits: i think so Nerchio

Nerchio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo5dMEP_BbI

struct: yes Nerchio

jacek: den_lakeev is this puzzle?

JFB: Better that 50/1234650 page :-)

MSmits: yeah thats him

struct: maybe ill buy it

Nerchio: i watched a few videos they were pretty good i might check out the book then

kovi: ofc, there is a difference between understanding and implementing a whole fw properly

struct: I was also checking the videos and found them begginer friendly

struct: Does the book all start from the basic MSmits?

MSmits: yes kovi, but if you're worried about going straight to TF out of laziness and missing the basics, then the book + videos might fill that gap

struct: also start*

MSmits: very basics yes

MSmits: even matrix multiplication is explained

MSmits: transposition and all that

struct: ok ty

reCurse: I'm probably bottom tier teacher, so take what I say with a grain of salt

reCurse: I'm more of a first principles

reCurse: I hate magic

Astrobytes: That's how I learn, yeah

MSmits: it's abstraction

JFB: reCurse - I prefered your aproach when I have had better memory :-)

MSmits: dont abstract before you understand what you are abstract

MSmits: -ing

reCurse: Exactly

reCurse: Because things will definitely go wrong

reCurse: And you'll need to understand why

Nerchio: you can always ask in cg chat what went wrong :joy:

Wontonimo: i haven't done NN on CG yet. My plan is to leverage TF offline and pick an architecture that is easy to export and implement by hand.

MSmits: Wontonimo there's mokka also

JFB: mokka?

Nerchio: but because of this NN stuff i curiously checked out last Halite competition that was hosted on Kaggle

Wontonimo: mokka?

Nerchio: and like top7 were all heuristics bots or something

Nerchio: even if the site is aimed towards machine learning

MSmits: https://github.com/marchete/Mokka

reCurse: Halite is a weird story

reCurse: I think they tried to promote machine learning with it

MSmits: use TF to train NN, then mokka for inference

reCurse: Realized most people couldn't beat regular approaches with it in that context

reCurse: And gave up on it? I don't know

TiopazHc: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/her-majestys-well-shared-secret Has anyone solved it? : 'v

Nerchio: yeah maybe not so many people interested in game AI too

Nerchio: that are knowledgable in the this area

reCurse: Yeah probably

Wontonimo: nice, thanks MSmits

reCurse: Turns out plugging stuff in tensorflow isn't enough sometimes :D

MSmits: thank Marchete :)

MSmits: i havent used it before, but i plan to, later

MSmits: even if i cant get it to work i can steal functions from there

MSmits: so will sure be useful

ThePoisoned1: if i want to start learning about what i need to make bot for stuff like the challenges where and what should i start with/do (heruistics,machine learning,monte carlo tree search)

kovi: kaggle halite is python only isnt it?

ThePoisoned1: or what do i need

reCurse: Last I checked yes

reCurse: Kaggle halite is also a shadow of its former self

kovi: and no recurse bot to be imitated ;)

reCurse: A tiny one at that

reCurse: Heh

MSmits: ThePoisoned1 every contest is different, it's hard to say what you will need for the next one

struct: Is cg the only one remaining?

ThePoisoned1: i mean to start learning about how to them

reCurse: struct: Some would say raic

MSmits: do you know how to do pathfinding ThePoisoned1?

ThePoisoned1: nope

MSmits: allright, look up breadth first search

MSmits: and apply it

struct: I dont enjoy raic tbh

MSmits: to whatever

struct: But I understand some people like it

MSmits: a puzzle, a tutorial

MSmits: can be anything

jacek: clash

MSmits: watch videos on it... if you have google skills you can learn BFS

Nerchio: last raic was my first and have to say it wasn't too bad

Nerchio: kind of native support of multi file AIs

kovi: it was good. somewhat similar to halite3

Nerchio: game itself was pretty good too

ThePoisoned1: videos on breadth first search?

HoangH7: Hello everyone.

MSmits: sure

reCurse: multifile is just a copy/paste automation job away

MSmits: youtube

ThePoisoned1: or just on everything

MSmits: BFS

ThePoisoned1: okay

MSmits: i am just telling you 1 thing that is sometimes needed for contest

kovi: i had single file raic

Nerchio: reCurse true but for beginners easier entry

MSmits: and quite easy to learn, easier than most other things

Nerchio: but yeah CG doesn't have too much competition

MSmits: wait what

DomiKo: https://towardsdatascience.com/how-to-visualize-convolutional-features-in-40-lines-of-code-70b7d87b0030 could be interesting

MSmits: you mean on NNs ?

MSmits: or in general?

DomiKo: if you never seed any visualizations of NN's

DomiKo: seen*

reCurse: CG is the last place for serious bot competitions imho

MSmits: yeah it's great

reCurse: If it goes down that field is gone

MSmits: we need to keep it alive

JFB: true

reCurse: I stopped actively caring about it :P

reCurse: Feel better for it

MSmits: thats fine reCurse, as long as someone does. you contribute just by making great bots

reCurse: Trying to change something out of your control is madness anyway

MSmits: true

MSmits: well it's not 100% out of your control, just 99,99%, if many players care, it will stay

reCurse: OTOH if it goes down I would probably share a lot more lol

MSmits: strength in numbers

reCurse: Catch 22

MSmits: If it does go down, maybe somewhere it will pop back up in another form

MSmits: I mean there's demand...

reCurse: Doubt it

reCurse: It's living off benevolent money

MSmits: true

reCurse: No idea how that's possible tbh

eulerscheZahl: gocoder has huge goals

eulerscheZahl: before you ask: this is a troll comment

MSmits: it's quite special yes, that we can do this and not pay anything

MSmits: I would pay to do this

reCurse: Wouldn't put a dent in the costs

MSmits: sure

dbdr: benevolent money? isn't the money coming from CG for work?

reCurse: I meant in the sense of

reCurse: They put money with no hope of return on it

Wontonimo: speaking of paying, if there was a multi that we made that we wanted to run like a competition here on CG, we could do a gofundme to raise some ad money to bring contestants, and program the ref to stop at a date/time

ZarthaxX: true

jacek: it comes from slavery

eulerscheZahl: it's not only the server costs (which surely takes a huge part). it's also a few staff members that work partially or mostly on the competitive part of CG

reCurse: So it's out of their good will is what I meant

MSmits: hmm but isnt the size of the community a selling point for CG for work?

MSmits: it's good advertising to be able to say

reCurse: I doubt it's worth that much

dbdr: and CG is great advertising for CG for work. plus I don't think it's *that* expensive in comparison to the advertising

MSmits: i have no idea

reCurse: But if I knew better I'd do business

reCurse: So don't mind my rambling

reCurse: Either they cut a huge deal with their cloud provider

reCurse: Or I don't know

reCurse: Running that many games on the cloud isn't cheap

Wontonimo: no it aint

dbdr: I don't know, 99% of bots must be if bots, not that CPU heavy

struct: it aint cheap at all

kovi: dbdr...get ready to stop submit when i reach #4

reCurse: It's not about CPU heaviness

reCurse: It's about time rental

reCurse: Doesn't matter if the CPU is used or not

MSmits: dbdr i think 99% of the cost is from 1 % of the players :P

struct: Running 400k games costed me 20$

dbdr: kovi why?

eulerscheZahl: struct used AWS for 3h and got a bill of $6.27 already

struct: no it was more euler

Marchete: 6$?

eulerscheZahl: what even more that $6?

struct: it didnt updated

Marchete: what a steal

ZarthaxX: D:

struct: It was 6$ for the start

Marchete: use spot instances

kovi: oh, saelyos is resubmitting as well, nvm

eulerscheZahl: you gave me the wrong number. i trusted you

reCurse: I don't know if OVH has spot instances

struct: but 400k games for 18$ is not bad

reCurse: Anyway

reCurse: All speculation

reCurse: Gotta add the salaries of the staff involved too

eulerscheZahl: you only stored the end results. not the full replay

reCurse: Opportunity cost

reCurse: etc

eulerscheZahl: with extra network bandwidth the view them

struct: ah true, and I used my own referee which was faster

dbdr: how many games is a CG contest, would you say? :)

Marchete: or batch in azure

Marchete: for massive parallelized jobs

reCurse: dbdr That's a good question, I'd be curious, I imagine there's a lot more than submits

eulerscheZahl: thibaud wrote something a year ago

ZarthaxX: dbdr cant you check that with replay id before a contest and after?

Marchete: once up and running it was cool

Marchete: source: me in NS

MSmits: on the order of several million games i think

eulerscheZahl: 5 million battles for spring 2020

reCurse: If it was cheap they wouldn't have been so opposed to running more games and similar requests

dbdr: and 400k was 6$ :D

ZarthaxX: :D wtf

struct: no 18

reCurse: Just something to keep in mind

kovi: good guess msmits

MSmits: so a few 100 $

Wontonimo: if only it was easy and safe to do something decentralized, like folding@home . you get as many plays as your provide cpu

eulerscheZahl: so if we scale up linear, it's 7 million battles this contest

MSmits: ye

dbdr: anyways, pocket change

MSmits: I would imagine CG bench could be costly if many players use it

Marchete: ovh maybe don't have preemptive/spot

reCurse: You think they'd cripple bench if costs were cheap?

eulerscheZahl: they already surprised me with the 100ms time limit

Marchete: but I think they should have

reCurse: They could have just added more servers instead

reCurse: I'd trust their accounting

struct: ok $22.61 including taxes

Marchete: it's a good way to fill cloud VM with low priority batch jobs

eulerscheZahl: but i guess only a small amount of bots needs more than 2-3ms anyways

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: i am new to this

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: hey

Wontonimo: well now that's too much struct

struct: I had the machine running for about 10 hours +-

struct: full load for around 4 hours

Marchete: up to 80% cheaper

Marchete: and it's real, no marketing BS

MSmits: I wasted nearly 300$ of free google VM on locam :P

reCurse: They're on OVH last I heard

reCurse: I don't know if they have spot instances

reCurse: It's also subject to availability

reCurse: You could have days without any instances available

reCurse: You're ready to have your website down for it?

Marchete: not all website, but match runners

reCurse: Still an issue

dbdr: we found the source of stuck submits :D

Marchete: high spike? spot instances

reCurse: Affects plays in IDE too

kovi: so recurse bot played more games than all of use together

kovi: no wonder he won :)

reCurse: Imagine the chat where you get people asking daily why play doesn't work

dbdr: lol

MSmits: against itself kovi :P

eulerscheZahl: so that counts for 2 matches each

reCurse: Then you need to build the infrastructure to depend on that

reCurse: If they didn't already, that's more investment

reCurse: I don't know, I get the impression this is severely underestimated here

Marchete: I guess

reCurse: They're not stupid, if it was cheap they'd just add servers

dbdr: they have a bottleneck

dbdr: it's not the servers

MSmits: reCurse you could throttle the number of plays /min when the availability is low. You could do a more expensive minimum availability with the cheap part for extra availability. Like amix

struct: I think they added during start

Marchete: I just said preemptive are perfect for short/burst and forgettable jobs

eulerscheZahl: might this even be the real reason for less contests?

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: whats the best language

Westicles: Definitely seems to be more of a business focus this last year

reCurse: Maybe I just sympathize because I read reddit comments about gamers thinking they have a clue about what goes on behind the scenes :)

reCurse: I try to assume good intentions

MSmits: mickeyaxe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_Programming_Language

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: i am new whats the best language

Wontonimo: the one you know

struct: Lua

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: lol i just got in to this

Nerchio: python is a nice language i suggest diving straight into NNs

MSmits: lol

Nerchio: so you dont waste any time

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: do not know what the fuck i am doing but a am ready to learn

Wontonimo: what do you mostly code in mickeyaxe (the red text just means you are mentioned, it's not bad)

struct: red text is a warning

MSmits: f-word is bad :P

struct: next is kick followed by ban

Wontonimo: no it isnt!

MSmits: i dont mean fun Wontonimo

Wontonimo: oh no, i got red text now

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: lol sorry

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: so the paython

iHapiW: hi

Default avatar.png mickeyaxe: i will try that

eulerscheZahl: it's hard to answer the best language question. we don't even know what you want to achieve. puzzles here on CG, web development, desktop applications, ...

MSmits: or order food in Italian restaurant

Nerchio: he wants to do NNs i've heard they can do anything you want

eulerscheZahl: depending on that you might get a different language suggested. and also depending on whom you ask

reCurse: What's the best utensil?

MSmits: fork

MSmits: easy

Wontonimo: spork

struct: why a fork?

MSmits: why not

Westicles: lvl 3 US, just say python

MSmits: you can eat anything with fork

eulerscheZahl: use freethon. paython is too expensive

Nerchio: soup would be difficult

Wontonimo: spork!

MSmits: thats drinking

MSmits: the eat part of soup can be done with fork

reCurse: You eat steak with a fork?

reCurse: Must make for interesting bites

MSmits: mmh I am vegetarian apparently

MSmits: but sure, i would try

Wontonimo: grind one side of the spork to a razor edge, then eat your steak

MSmits: you can eat steak with two forks

Smelty: smart

eulerscheZahl: the answer is "Swiss army knife"

Westicles: I'm amazed at two-handed steak eaters. I'm a right hand knift, right hand fork guy

eulerscheZahl: i'm a tofu steak guy

Wontonimo: you cut your meat with 1 hand?

Westicles: lots of switching

Smelty: cool'st

MSmits: I actually havent used a fork in months

MSmits: maybe i miss it, not sure

eulerscheZahl: how do you eat then?

Smelty: chopstic

Wontonimo: is it because of the nightmares ?

eulerscheZahl: my default is fork+spoon

MSmits: I live mostly on jimmy joy shakes :P

dbdr: how the chat topic drifts

MSmits: but sometimes i get some croissants or some popcorn if i need more calories

MSmits: still no fork needed

reCurse: I'll take responsibility on that one

dbdr: :D

Marchete: from NN, to cloud servers to tofu

eulerscheZahl: all it takes is one guy asking for the best language

MSmits: yep :0

reCurse: I derail enough chats I'd probably make a living off derailing trains

dbdr: if there was a market for that

Smelty: lol

Wontonimo: with the competition there is

eulerscheZahl: trains... used to take one with my grandma to go to bath

jacek: openttd eh

jacek: trains in germany :scream:

eulerscheZahl: in a city a bit away, was a trip for the whole day

Smelty: eh

reCurse: ^ case in point ^

eulerscheZahl: i did that one on purpose

reCurse: :P

MSmits: that was disturbing

MSmits: :P

Smelty: ^

dbdr: most disturbing was learning poor euler did not have a bath at home

MSmits: yeah

reCurse: Shower is enough

eulerscheZahl: uhm, is "bath" the wrong word?

dbdr: shower was when it rained

MSmits: it's a good word eulerscheZahl

eulerscheZahl: public swimming bath

dbdr: eulerscheZahl on purpose too

MSmits: ohh, then no

dbdr: I know what you meant

MSmits: swimming pool

eulerscheZahl: https://www.dict.cc/?s=schwimmbad

MSmits: zwembad in Dutch

jacek: bad

Nerchio: its better to have a shower and no bath than have a bath and no shower imo :D

dbdr: there are hot public baths not for swimming

MSmits: yep, bad = bath

jacek: i thought euler didnt have bath

MSmits: true Nerchio

eulerscheZahl: i'm more a shower guy

reCurse: I miss onsens now...

eulerscheZahl: haven't been in the bathtub for more than a decade

MSmits: will we next discuss our kitchen sinks ?

reCurse: sigh

dbdr: yeah, Nerchio made me think of japan too

iHapiW: any iranians there ?

eulerscheZahl: no, struct kicked them

MSmits: at least 1

ZarthaxX: haha

Nerchio: dbdr never been there, wanted to go but worldwide plague happened

Nerchio: soonTM

reCurse: Definitely go there

reCurse: Best trip of my life

dbdr: agreed!

reCurse: My only regret is not going there when I was younger

reCurse: If only to have more time to go again

Westicles: Interesting country. I think their y chromosomes are falling apart, guys getting very weird

MSmits: thats been happening for a long time

MSmits: watch conan in Japan: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70z6ua

Nerchio: i was in south korea though and they have next level toilets

Nerchio: maybe in japan too i guess

Nerchio: like heating up the seat etc :joy:

reCurse: Yeah fairly standard there

eulerscheZahl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QecplAPd-K4

Westicles: Better than Shenzhen back in the day. Squat in the hole

Nerchio: but I was as surprised by that as when i saw a hole in the ground as a toilet in a mall in China ^.-

Nerchio: yeah

Nerchio: Westicles :D

Smelty: lol train your muscles

Nerchio: we had it all in chat today probably ;)

Smelty: reeeeeee my code for "roller coaster" passes "very large dataset" but fails "large dataset"

jacek: hardcoding solutions eh

Smelty: nope

Smelty: it was a validator

Smelty: and once i removed them loggers i got 100%

Lachrymosa: Hm, the "Reach the silver league" quest map isn't unlocking for me. I got silver in two contests now but it only counts 1/2

Smelty: hmm do contests count? i think its bot programming

Lachrymosa: you may be right, i'll just have to run my contest code in the bot game then

Astrobytes: Known issue iirc

Lachrymosa: oh, so is it me not running it again, or should I just note it and move on

Astrobytes: Think they said it'll be fixed soon

Smelty: ah yes

Chainman: totoro

King_Coda: All right boys

King_Coda: Surgery today, let's go

King_Coda: Hype Champ

Chainman: good luck?

AntiSquid: where did you come from?

King_Coda: I've always been here

King_Coda: I just took a break from chat for the duration of the contest

AntiSquid: brain enlargement surgery ?

King_Coda: That's not a thing

AntiSquid: augmentation via neural link

King_Coda: Deus Ex Human Revolution style

King_Coda: Anyways, back on topic

King_Coda: I've been practicing a lot with AI bot proggramming recently. Never knew it would be so fun

King_Coda: After just a few puzzles I'm in the top 10,000

jacek: youre over 10500

King_Coda: I also never knew they would be so long... 800+ lines????

King_Coda: Wait, I dropped?

King_Coda: I was 9,956 last time I checked

jacek: making puzzles would give you only exp no?

jacek: no ups in ranking

King_Coda: I don't make puzzles

King_Coda: I solved them

jacek: solving*

ZarthaxX: that doesnt give rank

King_Coda: Yes it does?

ZarthaxX: games do

ZarthaxX: clash of code you mean?

kovi: jacek you have nn uttt?

King_Coda: No, I don't do clash of code

jacek: yes

ZarthaxX: then you are crazy

kovi: seems robo has improved, maybe he added nn

King_Coda: Solving puzzles gives you rank

ZarthaxX: nope

King_Coda: Then how did my rank increase after doing puzzles

King_Coda: :thinking:

ZarthaxX: did you do contest?

King_Coda: No

jacek: clash gives rank

ZarthaxX: lemme check

ZarthaxX: he said he didnt do

King_Coda: I got into gold league on Platinum Rift with my bot

King_Coda: That's really the only league based activity I did

ZarthaxX: you did clash

King_Coda: I never won any though

ZarthaxX: that doesnt appear King_Coda

ZarthaxX: the platinum

ZarthaxX: was that today

King_Coda: No, it was last week

ZarthaxX: you dont have to win clashes to gainrank

ZarthaxX: you didnt do platinum lol

King_Coda: ...Yes I did

ZarthaxX: ah its bugged then

ZarthaxX: might be that one then :)

King_Coda: There's a bug now?

King_Coda: Great, sounds fun

ZarthaxX: i mean, it shows that you have like 2k points

ZarthaxX: but only shows spring challenge haha

King_Coda: I only got into like wood 2 league on the spring challenge

ZarthaxX: yeah i see that

ZarthaxX: wood2 is the initial league

King_Coda: I didn't start actually practicing until after the contest

jacek: and he got into it. :tada:

ZarthaxX: :rofl:

ZarthaxX: get legend King_Coda

King_Coda: My bots only get me to gold

struct: oh valgrowt h also used chokudai

Marchete: and ghost trees

RoboStac: do they do extra spooky shadows?

Marchete: clever ways to avoid overevaluations

AntiSquid: expect val to do MCTS DUCT, that's what he did for gocoder

Marchete: :ghost:

AntiSquid: so much work around the eval function ...

AntiSquid: almost makes NN look easy

Marchete: lol no

struct: RoboStac yes but only for the other player

struct: I mean the ghost trees will still cast shadows

struct: but only for the other player

Marchete: it's a way to avoid bad interactions between players, like what he said, a seed after enemy's COMPLETE

AntiSquid: oh well yes, if you think about it overanalyzing the game to come up with perfect heuristics overall takes an awful lot of effort

Smelty: Bb

Marchete: overanalyzing sounds like it isn't needed

Marchete: in any subject if you are at the highest limit

Marchete: you need to "overanalyze"

AntiSquid: it's needed, it's just somewhat wasted effort, less productive

Marchete: Also zobrist

Marchete: in fact reading it I overanalyzed more than that

Marchete: I had a lot of tables and stats

Marchete: didn't work out btw :D

jacek: my code works faster than i anticipated and i dont know why :(

struct: how is that bad?

jacek: because i cant reproduce it to other codes

jacek: or i do the same but dont get that speedup

struct: bug?

jacek: works correctly

jacek: the change made this part 6x faster, when i suspected at most 2x

jacek: could be less cache misses or something

HaadiFarooq123: which launage do you use

HaadiFarooq123: ?

jacek: c++

HaadiFarooq123: Sorry not my field

HaadiFarooq123: would have loved to help

Nerchio: Smelty your roller coaster solution :scream:

HaadiFarooq123: ?

CamTheHelpDesk: I can't seem to find the buttons to approve/reject contributions that I am qualified to approve/reject...

Astrobytes: they map still be in WIP status

Astrobytes: *may

CamTheHelpDesk: nope, this one is waiting for moderation

Astrobytes: Clash?

CamTheHelpDesk: yeah

CamTheHelpDesk: https://cam.is-ne.at/xzWwno.png

Astrobytes: And you've approved other clashes?

CamTheHelpDesk: no, never

CamTheHelpDesk: first one

Astrobytes: Have you done the required amount of clashes?

CamTheHelpDesk: yes

CamTheHelpDesk: the path thing on the homepage says to go moderate one

CamTheHelpDesk: https://cam.is-ne.at/OWxpnx.png

Astrobytes: Can you link the clash?

Astrobytes: *contribution

CamTheHelpDesk: https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/6752dc412690c9034d8c1d4dabd39ee9d884

struct: I think the requirement is higher than 50 clashes

struct: to be able to aprove

struct: but im not sure

Astrobytes: 50+ yes

struct: try doing one more clash

CamTheHelpDesk: alright

kovi: nice improvement dbdr

kovi: duct?

jrke: btw what is duct?

ZarthaxX: decoupled uct

ZarthaxX: simultaneous mcts

jrke: oh mcts for both players

jacek: duck tales

ZarthaxX: duck tape

Xoast: how many people are bots for clash of code

jacek: yes

Xoast: wait so its all bots

Smelty: coc bots are generally level 7 and no bio and if you click on their profile itll say that they are bots :)

Smelty: the rest arent

jrke: not alll mostly are bots

snoyes: Looking for one more approval on https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/657661704b0fdc034a635fa4aa2d0b61193f

ill-be-waiting-outside: nice work

-oa-: hi all!

Wontonimo: jrke, here a link for DUCT https://dke.maastrichtuniversity.nl/m.winands/documents/sm-tron-bnaic2013.pdf

Wontonimo: unlike MSmitMax (how is it spelt?), DUCT is all in one graph

Wontonimo: hi -oa-

Default avatar.png rmney: suuuup

King_Coda: Alright, going to my surgery now

King_Coda: Let's goooo. Gonna do some bot programming when I come back

Default avatar.png im_brutus: hi

AntiSquid: are you not gone yet? King_Coda

AntiSquid: thought it was hours ago

AntiSquid: no idea what surgery he's having, hope he took a book or something with him, it's really boring for patients when they recover

struct: dental

AntiSquid: ouch, might not even get solid food for a while

struct: i just started reading about NNs, can layers have different number of neurons from eachother?

AntiSquid: yes ofc

struct: ok makes sense

struct: I just that most of pictures just all layers with the same number of neurons

AntiSquid: ya all tutorials seem to mimic each other

jacek: really?

struct: really to which part jacek?

AntiSquid: he's trollyloly again

struct: ...

jacek: "most of pictures just all layers with the same number of neurons"

reCurse: When isn't he

struct: yeah missed a few words

AntiSquid: his NLP isnt fully trained

AntiSquid: underfitted *

jacek: or MLP

AntiSquid: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/12424fcf-75c4-43ff-9d39-7a41959d0425

AntiSquid: oh f... Automaton2000 time

Automaton2000: because they are the only way i can get it to work

struct: thanks will check

AntiSquid: struct check my paste bin

AntiSquid: ok

struct: So many terms o.o

reCurse: Better get used to it

struct: yeah, I guess at the start is a bit overwhelming

CamTheHelpDesk: do you get XP from CoC?

struct: no

CamTheHelpDesk: is there a list somewhere of what you get XP from and how much

MSmits: I actually use that playground in class

MSmits: you can turn most of it off, make it simple

MSmits: I used iframes where i turn stuff off and i gradually turn it on as my students progress

MSmits: works quite well

KelvinAndHubbles: CamTheHelpDesk, if you go to the practice problems and hover over each it says xp values and if you go to acheivements tab it shows all xp values of that, and that's mostly what you'll get xp from

AntiSquid: there are even more terms

CamTheHelpDesk: KelvinAndHubbles: thanks

aropan: Why different numbers of games in leaderboard https://www.codingame.com/contests/spring-challenge-2021/leaderboard ?

struct: it shows people that registered

struct: not that submited

Uljahn: aropan: guess some finished earlier and then had additional matches with those who didn't

struct: ah games

AntiSquid: seen the totoro tags ? Graphs

   Minimax

AntiSquid: ZarthaxX ?

ZarthaxX: what

AntiSquid: what did you use for totoro ?

aropan: Uljahn: ok, but why I see for reCurse 33 number of games versus Saelyos, but for Saelyos I see only 31 number of games versus reCurse?

ZarthaxX: beam

AntiSquid: smart baer

jacek: :beers:

ZarthaxX: just followed the herd :P

AntiSquid: you got higher than mbits

jacek: to get higher than dutch, oh my

AntiSquid: not any dutch

ZarthaxX: smito?

AntiSquid: yes

ZarthaxX: ah yeah, but he didnt have the time

Default avatar.png UUolfo: last game I did I printed the anwser, and it showed in the output, but it just said "Nothing" as my anwser?

aropan: Uljahn: first and fifth games for reCurse are versus Saelyos, but they skip for Saelyos.

ZarthaxX: he would have smashed me :)

struct: all m smits had to do was to pause his yavalath meta

aropan: These games: https://www.codingame.com/replay/557356958 https://www.codingame.com/replay/557375170

ZarthaxX: lol struct :P

KelvinAndHubbles: UUolfo there are specific rules for languages, for instance c++ you have to put cout << answer << endl; as the endl is signyfying you submitting your answer

reCurse: aropan: Sorry I don't understand your question

AntiSquid: he is talking about replay history, saying 2 replays don't show up on one of the player's history

struct: he means some replays on last battle dont show on some players side

reCurse: Oh

reCurse: Because the replay history is cut off after a certain number

reCurse: And some bots had longer submits than others

AntiSquid: can playgrounds only be created on tech.io ?

reCurse: A lot more games were played after contest is over than is shown in history

MSmits: ZarthaxX i did spend quite a bit of time, you beat me fair

MSmits: i dont always do well you know :P

aropan: Hmmm, ok, I understood. Thanks.

ZarthaxX: MSmits okey haha

ZarthaxX: i take it :)

MSmits: you should

MSmits: it's a 7k contest, not bad at all

ZarthaxX: can i put this on cv?

MSmits: sure :P

ZarthaxX: yeah, it was a tough one

AntiSquid: do it lol

ZarthaxX: really fun having so much ppl

ZarthaxX: nah i should put i beated toad once

ZarthaxX: :D

reCurse: "Beat MSmits in a CG competition"?

ZarthaxX: right

reCurse: I'm sure that will turn some eyes

reCurse: Not sure in which direction though

ZarthaxX: smits and euler

MSmits: you beat euler too?

ZarthaxX: not here

struct: oh now we are talking

ZarthaxX: on wondev woman

MSmits: ohh ok

MSmits: euler is really consistent

AntiSquid: just 57/7000 is enough lol

ZarthaxX: but he hated that game :P

Default avatar.png Altruister: gibberish

ZarthaxX: yeah AntiSquid :rofl: wasnt it 56 tho ah

struct: you are not wrong

MSmits: well I beat tourist at code a la mode :P

MSmits: along with like 40 people :P

Default avatar.png UUolfo: @KelvinAndHubbles I belive it was just a gltich, for python it always reads as print(x) is the anwser. It may have been the way it was programmed, but every other thing i've done it has worked normally.

ZarthaxX: MSmits OH GOD

ZarthaxX: that name will be recognized anywhere for sure :)

MSmits: i guess he did not spend more than a few hrs

MSmits: or maybe did not like cooperative format

ZarthaxX: he spends usually a few hours yes

CamTheHelpDesk: how can I add comments with the stub generator? can't seem to find the docs

struct: https://github.com/MultiStruct/Othello/blob/master/config/stub.txt

CamTheHelpDesk: awesome thanks

LelouchVC2: antisquid

LelouchVC2: how are you always here

imrel: It's GPT-3

KiwiTae: ZarthaxX :*

ZarthaxX: HEY KIWO

ZarthaxX: :*

OBenjOne: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/c371bdc9-85ec-4b3d-8c1b-5246065e9100

OBenjOne: well that was weird

OBenjOne: I guess there is a character limit

OBenjOne: what I said was:

OBenjOne: Hi, I am trying to learn how to use breadth first search for games (specifically hypersonic). My code works, to an extent, but for some reason it is only reaching around 300 nodes (or about depth 3 or 4) before timing out.

OBenjOne: I expected my code to be able to do more calculations than that. Granted, I am using python because that is the language I understand best and I am new to BFS, but I thought the number of calculations possible would be closer to the thousands than the hundreds.

ZarthaxX: python is really slow OBenjOne

OBenjOne: but is it that slow?

ZarthaxX: yep

jacek: hypersonic is 100ms?

ZarthaxX: and depends also on how you code with it

ZarthaxX: maybe your code is really inefficient

ZarthaxX: like your simulator

ZarthaxX: jacek i think it is

OBenjOne: It probably is

ZarthaxX: OBenjOne are you copying the sim?

ZarthaxX: the state

ZarthaxX: every time

jacek: python could go into thousands nodes, depending on how efficient is your node traversal

jacek: or creating/reallocating nodes

OBenjOne: Is using classes a bad idea?

OBenjOne: That could be my main problem

jacek: that one is good actually

jacek: but what is in that class how it interacts with others

OBenjOne: Each node has just a few paramiters, two being another class object (one for my bot and one for the map of the game)

OBenjOne: Would condensing each node to one object help?

Dower: Talking about timeouts. I wrote some methods with js for 2021 event, which calculated best places with least shadows and it timedout. It was so dissapointing...

ZarthaxX: you have a node class?

ZarthaxX: ah

ZarthaxX: nvm

OBenjOne: yes

ZarthaxX: bfs true

OBenjOne: yes

ZarthaxX: so are you copying each map bot?

ZarthaxX: every time

ZarthaxX: i guess you are

ZarthaxX: so copying may make it slow

OBenjOne: yeah.... thats probably bad isn't it

ZarthaxX: your map representation is heavy probably

ZarthaxX: nah it's ok, bfs need that

ZarthaxX: copying is fine

ZarthaxX: but the copy might be killing you, because your states may be too big

OBenjOne: So I need to find a way to condense them?

ZarthaxX: c++ has 20x more speed than python btw

ZarthaxX: there are ways to make it smaller yes

ZarthaxX: maybe you have a matrix of ints here, right?

OBenjOne: Yeah I looked at the leaderboard and all the top players use C++

ZarthaxX: each int indetifies the type

ZarthaxX: yeah because c++ rocks with these type of things

OBenjOne: I just don't know C++ well enough yet

OBenjOne: I plan to switch to it later

ZarthaxX: try learning it

OBenjOne: thanks

ZarthaxX: will help you

ZarthaxX: in this game, represnting the board with a bitboard is nice

ZarthaxX: you can try doing the excercise with python

ZarthaxX: representing state with bits, each cell is a bit

ZarthaxX: for exampl,e each set bit means there is a box

mubi97: hey there

Default avatar.png MyNameIsMo: hi

B-612: can anybody help me to understand node.js console app code ?

Default avatar.png LeonidPetkovski: hi

B-612: hi

LeviathanProgramming: hi

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: hi

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: how are u

OBenjOne: Thanks @ZarthaxX I had to leave for a bit because I am at school, but I think your advice about bitboards and c++ will help a lot

ZarthaxX: sure

ZarthaxX: you can read postmortems about hypersonic for a guide too

Default avatar.png lawstheboss: Hey daddy

King_Coda: Hey guys

King_Coda: I'm back from surgery

King_Coda: I'm still a littl tipsy, but not high

ZarthaxX: gud

LeviathanProgramming: surgery gone wrong

LeviathanProgramming: now king coda sicker

King_Coda: Nope

King_Coda: I'm okay

LeviathanProgramming: aw man

LeviathanProgramming: jk

King_Coda: Just lost a bunch of blood is all

King_Coda: And my mouth is still numb

LeviathanProgramming: tooth extraction?

King_Coda: Yup

LeviathanProgramming: I had five teeth pulled

King_Coda: Wisdom teeth

LeviathanProgramming: seriously

CamTheHelpDesk: uh

CamTheHelpDesk: you have 4 wisdom teeth

King_Coda: I still have the bloddy cloths in my mouth

CamTheHelpDesk: gonna be like that for a few days unfortunately

King_Coda: Yayyyyyyyyyyyy

King_Coda: Damn, mine came out early

LeviathanProgramming: I had to remove four premolars and an extra tooth that wasn't supposed to be in my mouth

CamTheHelpDesk: ngl I'm surprised you're sane enough to chat rn

King_Coda: Oh, the drugs wore off a LONG time ago

CamTheHelpDesk: I got mine out a few weeks ago, couldn't think straight for the rest of the day

CamTheHelpDesk: were you sedated?

King_Coda: Yeha, I can think perfectly now

King_Coda: I was sedated

King_Coda: UNconcious

King_Coda: It felt like I fast travelled

CamTheHelpDesk: hope your recovery is nice and speedy

King_Coda: Like in skyrim

King_Coda: Thanks bro

CamTheHelpDesk: heh I have about a 5 hour gap in my memory

Marchete: take care King

King_Coda: Mines only 2 hours

Marchete: use drugs to avoid pain

CamTheHelpDesk: are you on narcotics?

King_Coda: My mom got me prescribed some painkillers

King_Coda: I don' tknow what kind

King_Coda: I'm only 16

CamTheHelpDesk: 15 here

CamTheHelpDesk: if you had narcotics you would be pretty high

CamTheHelpDesk: so prob not

King_Coda: Nope

King_Coda: I'm gonna go now

CamTheHelpDesk: cya

King_Coda: gotta lay down for a bit

King_Coda: Cat wait to find out what happened in tht 2 hour gap

King_Coda: :vulcan:

AntiSquid: LelouchVC2 am i ?

LelouchVC2: Everytime I get on, I see you in the chat

LelouchVC2: xD

LelouchVC2: I guess to be in the top 10 you have to be pretty active ;o

DogukanSENER: can someona help me about plat-rift episode 1

LeviathanProgramming: I know who can help you

LeviathanProgramming: Yourself

LeviathanProgramming: @DogukanSENER

LelouchVC2: Damn bro, he said your mother has no testicles

TiopazHc: :nerd:

LeviathanProgramming: keep ur lang clean pls

LelouchVC2: Something dirty about what I said?

LeviathanProgramming: uhuh

LelouchVC2: what was it?

LeviathanProgramming: You know very well what you said was bad

LelouchVC2: Oh no, was I naughty?

LelouchVC2: Let me make it better, his mother does have testicles

push_back: Can someone just ban him, please?

AntiSquid: clash in D or ban LelouchVC2

LelouchVC2: That's mean @push_back

LelouchVC2: I have a lot of experience with D

LelouchVC2: lets clash 😎

AntiSquid: seriously enough with the motherly stuff .

LeviathanProgramming: Stop lelouch

AntiSquid: yes LelouchVC2 stop

LelouchVC2: I heard peer pressure was a bad thing :((

LelouchVC2: Why would you make me cry like this

AntiSquid: why not ?

LelouchVC2: I thought we had something special

King_Coda: oh god

King_Coda: what the hell is wrong with chat

LelouchVC2: I was getting bullied :((

King_Coda: contests bring out the worst in this community

King_Coda: no you weren't

King_Coda: dont even lie

LelouchVC2: 😭

King_Coda: Shut up

King_Coda: I have no room for BS rn

LelouchVC2: *gasp*

King_Coda: My face is still numb and my jaw hurts like hell, so don't give me that "oh im being bullied"

LelouchVC2: You get beat up today?

King_Coda: I got surgery

LelouchVC2: oof

LelouchVC2: What was it for?

King_Coda: My jaw

King_Coda: Had my wisdom teeth growing in sideways

LelouchVC2: Ahh yes

LelouchVC2: I have one sideways wisdom tooth

LelouchVC2: I'll be in your shoes one day

King_Coda: They knocked me out, and I dont remember a single thing from 12:30 PM to 2:30 PM

King_Coda: How old are you?

Default avatar.png quakity: ngl im kinda shit at this im still on episode one and i've never coded

King_Coda: I'm only 16 and just got mine removed

LelouchVC2: Yea, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything though so I'm thinking maybe I could just leave it

LelouchVC2: I'm in my 20s

King_Coda: HA

King_Coda: You should be acting more mature if you're in your 20s

LelouchVC2: They've been there a while, i only need 1 removed

LelouchVC2: Says who?

King_Coda: Says literally everyone

LelouchVC2: unless im not someone, it cannot be literally everyone

LelouchVC2: big brain

Default avatar.png quakity: sheeesh

King_Coda: If I'm more mature than you and I've not even fully developed yet, then thats a probkem

King_Coda: I doubt you're in your 20s, but okay

LelouchVC2: u came into a chat after surgery complaining right off the bat. I dont think being mature would be the highest priority on ur list

LelouchVC2: You should get some sleep

King_Coda: I think I have the right to complain after getting my face ripped open

King_Coda: I'm not tired.

LelouchVC2: You have every right to do it even if you're jolly and had the best day of your life

AntiSquid: LelouchVC2 ban !

LelouchVC2: :((

King_Coda: Please

AntiSquid: you ripped his face open

LelouchVC2: AntiSquid actually loves me

LelouchVC2: He's just too shy

King_Coda: Astro bytes is my dad, he just doesnt want to admit it

AntiSquid: idk i want to kick both

King_Coda: "I have never sired an american child" - Astro

LelouchVC2: I have never bit into someone's neck pretending to be a vampire

King_Coda: Antisquid, I don't really care what you do tbh. I'm just gonna go do some more puzzles

LelouchVC2: Don't talk to my mother that way

King_Coda: See you all later

LelouchVC2: Have fun, movies are your friend

AntiSquid: king coda is overly dramatic imo

AntiSquid: also you jump the shark with your jokes LelouchVC2

AntiSquid: the shark's balls to put it your way

Default avatar.png quakity: Do ya'll have any recomendations on what i can do to actually learn how to code bc im legit barely a freshman and half to take a programming class next year lmao

Default avatar.png quakity: have*

AntiSquid: practice

LelouchVC2: Figure out which programming language you'll be learning in your university

casmith789: try the easy puzzles and google how to do things when you get stuck

LelouchVC2: Find a tutorial for it for beginner programmers

dreadylein: work through some basic tutorials, then pratice by doing something you think is fun

Default avatar.png quakity: im in highschool lmao

AntiSquid: what stage are you at? what do you know about your language you use ? quakity

Default avatar.png quakity: idk i just started today and im using Go

LelouchVC2: I think I'll bring you to the dark side instead @antisquid

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: c# ide being weird

King_Coda: C# is superior

King_Coda: Stick with the C languages, including Java and Javascript

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: >_>

King_Coda: And python too

LelouchVC2: Javascript = best language every made

AntiSquid: lol

Default avatar.png quakity: lol i honestly don't know the difference yet

LelouchVC2: python is the fastest language iv ever programmed in

King_Coda: LOL

AntiSquid: i loled at the "Stick with the C languages, including Java and Javascript"

King_Coda: (I was joking btw)

Notter: Why is the code editor not showing the usual yellow and red spots on the scroll bar?

Default avatar.png quakity: I feel like a tard I haven't even gotten to my 2nd test case

LelouchVC2: You'll be fine, you just have to keep at it

AntiSquid: take it easy

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: ide/editor seems to be wonky today Notter

LelouchVC2: Its slow learning at first, but it gets better over time

Default avatar.png quakity: I mean ik that I have to write a function I just don't know how to and i don't wanna look it up

LelouchVC2: What I did at first is I kept notes in a notepad with coding examples. If I needed references I'd go ctrl+f through it

LelouchVC2: And believe me, no matter how good you get, you'll have to google examples sometimes just because you wont have a whole language memorized

Default avatar.png quakity: # A single line providing the move to be made: N NE E SE S SW W or NW

   print("E")


Default avatar.png quakity: this is legit the only thing ive done lmao

LelouchVC2: Follow a tutorial that's meant for first time programmers. After a couple days of going through it, come back and try the puzzle

Default avatar.png quakity: lol ok

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: step 1: open challenge. step 2: smash head on keyboard multiple times. step 3: click submit. step 4: ???. step 5: profit

LelouchVC2: Cameron, I'm proud to nominate you for vice president

Default avatar.png CameronWatt: Lol

Default avatar.png n1j4t: Hi

Default avatar.png scorcersucks: join clash in code baby

Default avatar.png scorcersucks: be a chad and join

Default avatar.png scorcersucks: :grinning:

Default avatar.png n1j4t: I have a question regarding IDE

Default avatar.png n1j4t: I am new to codingame

Default avatar.png n1j4t: I want to pass a test and codingame says I can use my preferred IDE but if I do I will be copy pasting from there, does it count as cheating?

Default avatar.png n1j4t: When I finished the tutorial I watched the screen capture of how I did and whenever I pasted code from IDE it showed it in red that I pasted from external sources

Default avatar.png n1j4t: I dont understand what the use of an external IDE is if copy pasting from it is considered a red flag

MuddySneakers: I use an external IDE all the time. But you shouldn't have to copy&paste. Click Settings, at the bottom, there's an option for "Use an external code editor". If you turn that on, you get a widget that allows you to pick a file on your local system. You can directly upload/download to the file. Once it's synced, edit the file in your favorite IDE. When you save, the sync updates CodinGame's copy.

New_coder_please_help: does my new username show up here?

New_coder_please_help: nice

Default avatar.png IDKwhatmynicknameshouldbe: yes New_coder_please_help

New_coder_please_help: I love it

New_coder_please_help: I shall feint all of the peoples

Default avatar.png n1j4t: @MuddySneakers but where is this setting, I cannot find it

MuddySneakers: When you are working on a problem, there's a settings button on the left. Click that, at the bottom of the widget is the setting. You may have to scroll.

MuddySneakers: You do have to re-set it up each time you return to a particular problem or start a new problem. It's only live for the current session.

Default avatar.png n1j4t: do I need some kind of browser extension? Because I still cant find this setting

MuddySneakers: Not that I know of.

MuddySneakers: Do you see the panel on the left w/ Back, Forum, Results, Leaderboard, Settings?

Default avatar.png n1j4t: ok I actually meant the test session like an interview or the one that codingame provides to advertise you for 30 min, not the problems in a puzzle or something

MuddySneakers: Note: You have to be currently working on solving a problem/writing a bot to see this.

Default avatar.png n1j4t: ok not sure about advertisement part but something like a test session, or interview request from a company

MuddySneakers: Ah, I don't know anything about interviews, as I never use that part of codingame. Sorry.

Default avatar.png n1j4t: I just had a look at one problem and codingame IDE looks different

Default avatar.png n1j4t: ok, no problem, thanks anyway

King_Coda: Opiods

King_Coda: They have me taking opioids

King_Coda: Great.

King_Coda: Welp, guess I'll just figure out why my stupid nn isn't working

King_Coda: Why am I saying this in world chat?

LelouchVC2: Because at some point

LelouchVC2: You became too mature to keep it all inside

New_coder_please_help: is there a way that I can specify that I want to participate in a reverse clash?

New_coder_please_help: I can't seem to get any

LelouchVC2: no, fully random

LelouchVC2: I think there might be a way if you're doing a custom game

nacho_cheesefries: Hello!

New_coder_please_help: howdy

Smelty: how'dy

New_coder_please_help: yasss, I got my 3 reverse clashes won

New_coder_please_help: finally

New_coder_please_help: only took me about a week

JohnCM: i'm playing all my clash of code in C++ now, even shortest

JohnCM: just as a challenge

Default avatar.png Cobra_Mayhem: does anyone know where to do basic commands or use parameters?

Smelty: ahm, what language?

Default avatar.png Cobra_Mayhem: go

Smelty: welp idk go

Default avatar.png Cobra_Mayhem: do you know any that does

Smelty: well

Smelty: maybe you can look for profiles with go as a language

Default avatar.png Cobra_Mayhem: no i meant do you know any languages that use bc

Smelty: um no

Smelty: also, woah euler is first one global leaderboard

BlackDereker: can I print debug info in Bot Programming?

Wontonimo: well, think of it this way Smelty, you've already surpassed over 200,000 other people on the leader board yourself, how hard could another 1418 people positions really be? you can do it!

Wontonimo: yes BlackDereker you can

Wontonimo: the default code usually has an example of how to do it

BlackDereker: I deleted the default code...

BlackDereker: oh I can restore it

BlackDereker: nvm

BlackDereker: thx

Wontonimo: no problem, you can get it back (make sure you save it first)

Wontonimo: what multi bot game are you playing?

BlackDereker: the race one

BlackDereker: Coders Strike Back I think

Wontonimo: oh cool. how are you doing with it?

BlackDereker: I'm on Silver League

Wontonimo: congrats!

BlackDereker: thx

Wontonimo: you must have all the rules now, 2 vs 2, thrusting, shields,

BlackDereker: 2vs2?

Wontonimo: do you have 2 pods and the enemy has 2?

BlackDereker: nope

Wontonimo: oh

Wontonimo: what's the url?

BlackDereker: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/coders-strike-back

Wontonimo: oh, you still just have 1 pod?

BlackDereker: yeah

Wontonimo: oh cool

BlackDereker: I just got the shield

Wontonimo: nice

Wontonimo: do you want any help?

BlackDereker: that would be cheating, no?

Wontonimo: if i send you code it is, but if I use words and just describe the problem at a high level it is totally okay

BlackDereker: hmm

BlackDereker: I'm just thinking how I'm going to use the shield

Wontonimo: i'd only be repeating what you'd be able to find in the "discussion" tab, nothing more

BlackDereker: if it's going to be for defense or attack

Wontonimo: it is about being fast

Wontonimo: oh, you are in the top 1/3 of silver! Very nice

BlackDereker: thxx

BlackDereker: but I didn't submit my shield version, I think it used my previous one

Smelty: o.O