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eulerscheZahl: Happy Caturday

Default avatar.png OmarJabellpo: how can i see the solns for clash of code

eulerscheZahl: if others share the code at the end, you can just view it. not everyone shares. there are some bots clashing too. those never share the code

jacek: happy Caturday

Allis: eulerscheZahl I read recently that bots share their code if the person they're a ghost of shared; do you know if that claim holds any water?

dbdr: euler, the expert on all things clash of code :D

dbdr: Allis, did you fail at stopping clashing?

Allis: I sure did. :sweat_smile:

Allis: I realize euler doesn't clash, but they're obviously super-knowledgeable, so I figured they might know anyway.

dbdr: np, I was just teasing

eulerscheZahl: on the forum I read something along the lines that CG reconsiders the bots sharing code for CoC I don't know if that caused any changes. In the past bots never shared

eulerscheZahl: damn you JS I always forget "this"

dbdr: could you use TS?

PatrickMcGinnisII: self::

eulerscheZahl: hm, I guess that would be an option

eulerscheZahl: but now I'm too deep into it to look around :P

Default avatar.png AndroidTS: hello guys

dbdr: I dug myself into too deep of a hole the only option left if to keep digging and hope there's an exit on the other side ;)

dbdr: if->is

eulerscheZahl: i'm mostly done with the JS part actually

dbdr: cool

eulerscheZahl: i can already see the light on the other end

eulerscheZahl: and all it cost me is some days and a struct :(

dbdr: what happened to struct?

eulerscheZahl: no idea

dbdr: :(

eulerscheZahl: just disappeared

eulerscheZahl: last then i saw from him was a :thumbsup: 2 weeks ago

dbdr: maybe just on and off by period?

eulerscheZahl: future will tell us

eulerscheZahl: will he delete the account that just got moderator privileges? :thinking:

Thyl: Hello !

Default avatar.png Spaceinvader: hello ! is someone know how is calculated "next_checkpoint_angle" ?

AntiSquid: struct is on a journey to discover the next hexagonal multiplayer

jrke: Happy caturday :)

jacek: :cat:

Default avatar.png FlatAuntie_c759: ffff

AntiSquid: hi FlatAuntie_c759

aCat: :heart_eyes_cat:

jrke: What is NN i read about it but didn't understood

MSmits: a neural network is a layered series of values (weights) that, when combined with some mathematical functions can learn patterns that can be used for all sorts of things

MSmits: your brain works similarly

jacek: stupid talkchess. a need to use dutch proxy to get there

inoryy: layers go brrrr

MSmits: on CG it is used on some multis

MSmits: inoryy is an expert actually

MSmits: he does this for a living

jrke: so it means my bot will learn by that?

MSmits: the bot learns yes

MSmits: but it's not obvious anymore what it is "thinking", unlike with a normal bot

jacek: well 'normal' bot can learn too. its all about weights adjusting

MSmits: the process is obfuscated by the enormous amounts of weights that are gibberish to us

jacek: being NN or just feature wieghts

MSmits: jacek true, but a "normal" bot has the patterns already set and just the importance of them is 'learned"

MSmits: a NN learns the patterns themselves

jacek: an NN

MSmits: your ntuple bot is the perfect example

MSmits: you decide the patterns, the bot learns how good/bad they are

MSmits: Robo's bot doesnt have ntuples. Supposedly they are in there somewhere, but who knows

AntiSquid: there are tools to visualize the learning and how different parts of the NN affect the output

AntiSquid: it's not 100% blackbox :p

MSmits: yeah, but the fact that you need tools for that, proves my point :P

MSmits: it's not 100% no

jacek: well ntuples are linear, thats thei limitation. also i think ntuples do some work that convolution network do, theyre just handmade and faster to learn

inoryy: in the wild NNs have shown themselves to be better feature extractors than human experts. That's basically how deep learning era started - with NNs winning competitions historically dominated by classical ML models with features carefully handcrafted by human experts. So it's a bit more than weight adjustment

MSmits: mathematically it isn't, but conceptually it is, you mean

AntiSquid: are you aware of numenta inoryy?

AntiSquid: HTMs and such

inoryy: MSmits I mean "it's a bit more than weight adjustment on a linear combination of pre-defined features"

MSmits: oh yeah

MSmits: of course

AntiSquid: just wanted your opinion on HTMs

inoryy: AntiSquid not impressed to put it lightly :)

AntiSquid: why is that?

inoryy: I skimmed the whitepaper by Hawkins et al, it was a bunch of wishful thinking more fitting for /r/futurology than actual science

AntiSquid: not sure, but probably know what you are referring to, however you got to start somewhere

jacek: HTM?


inoryy: I'm open to revisit the stance once he publishes something tangible and reproducible in a proper peer-reviewed journal

MSmits: fair

MSmits: so that htm stuff is like string theory

AntiSquid: i think HTM is more like the unifying theory

MSmits: string theory tries to be that...

inoryy: i'm way out of my depth here but string theory seemed to have major scientists backing it and working on it through the years

MSmits: yeah lots

MSmits: but it's completely theoretical

inoryy: HTM as it is presented is fringe science at best

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: it's mostly a mathematical framework

MSmits: that you can fit universes on

AntiSquid: honestly, best to check it out yourself MSmits

MSmits: i should learn more about mainstream nn stuff first


MSmits: i want to do TD first though, more helpful for me atm

AntiSquid: they have regular video talks on the subject

AntiSquid: it's not as big as the other stuff out there but i wouldn't call it fringe science

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: gtg, visitors soon, ttyl

jacek: when MSmits gonna figure out TD, we all should run for life

AntiSquid: TD?

AntiSquid: tower game?

AntiSquid: bloody acronyms

jacek: temporal difference learning

inoryy: As I said, I'm open to revisit it in the future when he shows tangible proof; by fringe I mean that right now it is not taken seriously in either CNS or ML scientific communities (as opposed to string theory)

jacek: charArray theory eh

AntiSquid: i see

AntiSquid: how's life in London ? any better?

inoryy: still self-isolating as much as I can; imo Boris opened it soon, cases going up again

AntiSquid: imo there's too much confusion about what they want to do :D keep it shut or keep it open

inoryy: people aren't taking it seriously; at least in central London parks are full of people sitting basically shoulder to shoulder. :/

jacek: im antisocial so im safe

jacek: cases are rising, and presidential elections were 3 weeks ago. if we could connect the dots..

Astrobytes: Yeah, couldn't have seen that coming right

Astrobytes: I've noticed here that the younger the person, the higher the likelihood that they don't give a crap

Astrobytes: Which is both bizarre and sad

dbdr: why bizarre?

Astrobytes: Well, the younger tend to be more environmentally aware etc. more "switched on", yet they act like this.

dbdr: from a self-interest point of view, it makes sense

dbdr: environment matters more in the long term, covid more in the short term

Astrobytes: On the contrary, covid matters a lot in the long term

dbdr: how?

dbdr: immunity should go up over time, no?

Astrobytes: It's completely new. We're only just beginning to find out the post-infection effects for starters. Sure, immunity to one strain. Look at influenza.

dbdr: sure, we don't know exactly

Astrobytes: The after-effects of covid seem to be neurological and cardiovascular

dbdr: for environment we know quite well

Astrobytes: That's something rather new as far as coronaviruses go

Putnam3145: covid-19 is probably going to become a perennial like influenza and colds and things

jacek: well covid is beneficial for environment

Putnam3145: i don't look forward to it?

Putnam3145: swine flu from the pandemic a while back is still around

Astrobytes: Well yeah, these things don't just bog off once they're finished

AntiSquid: maybe if the data about covid's influence on the environment gets more attention, there will be more interest in reducing pollution ?

Astrobytes: Of course not, don't be silly :(

dbdr: not sure I follow that logic

Astrobytes: dbdr the reduction in pollution during covid lockdown was off the scale

AntiSquid: there was less human activity due to covid, there's data collected to prove this

dbdr: sure

AntiSquid: i mean to prove the reduction in pollution

dbdr: so it shows it's possible?

Astrobytes: But you can't stop the oil flowing or people lose profits

AntiSquid: subsidize alternatives a lot more

AntiSquid: don't pull a trump on the environment

dbdr: the best alternative is energy use reduction

AntiSquid: "america first" my ass, it will affect americans too lmao

dbdr: which indeed must be what happened with lockdown

Astrobytes: Lots of great solutions, but nothing will be done. Profit first, worry later

dbdr: as you said, young people care

Astrobytes: *ideas not solutions

Astrobytes: World isn't run by young people though

dbdr: ideas change with generations replacing

dbdr: not sure it's fast enough though

Astrobytes: Very slowly. There are always enough of the 'old guard' to keep the dinosaur attitudes alive

dbdr: until suddenly there isn't :)

Astrobytes: We live with some degree of hope, yes :)

dbdr: :)

AntiSquid: :)

code_maniac: How you guys coping up with this pandemic. a sudden shift in lifestyle ?

Putnam3145: no shift for me

el19oc: haha yeah, sudden shift in lifestyle...

Putnam3145: i've been a NEET honing my programming skills for 7 years... okay, that's a lie, I went to college for a while then dropped out because I kept doing personal projects instead of homework

Putnam3145: which, let me tell you

Putnam3145: looks way worse on a resume than you might think

code_maniac: And looking at current situation it seems it's going to be like this unless we have proper vaccine and it's distributions to most of people on world

Putnam3145: let us hope that this can happen

el19oc: wouldn't mind so much if things just stayed like this

AntiSquid: pandemic doesn't affect me much, i am lucky that's all

code_maniac: I am using this to learn a lot of things. But at times you just get fade up with this as you don't have people around to meet :/

Putnam3145: I would prefer to travel, to be frank

Putnam3145: I sorta started doing it rather often starting a few years back and now it's just... not an option at all

AntiSquid: things can't stay like this forever, not sure what the solution is but obviously a lot of people will lose their jobs and the consequences might be really bad, unless there will be some major changes ...

Putnam3145: I was thinking of going to Brazil but WOW not a good idea right now

AntiSquid: not good to travel yet ... see brits went on holiday to spain again, a bit early

el19oc: I mean that seems to be the future we're going down anyway with automation

el19oc: not sure what the solution is

code_maniac: Yeah it scares me when i think of people whose job more of physical work based then computers they are going through a crisis. And on top of that if they don't have enough savings they are walking on a sword.

AntiSquid: going down with automation? i strongly disagree, there's always empty space to fill, it's all about how things are managed

code_maniac: Definitely we will find out solution to it. But this is a chance to fix lots of unnoticed or unspoken problems of world and societies.

code_maniac: Due to this lockdown and all, i do see there's a sudden rise suicide case around world. Including some big celebrities as well. Which again a huge concerning thing as society’s generally don't talk much about mental health

el19oc: man I disagree that there's always empty space to fill but I could be wrong

el19oc: even today it feels like so many jobs exist just for the sake of creating a job, that kind of work doesn't bring any meaning

AntiSquid: train people so they have the necessary skills then ugh

AntiSquid: don't force massive student loans on people

Astrobytes: Yeah, it's almost like they make jobs just to keep the general population working all the time eh... Welcome to modern neoliberal economics applied to outdated notions of capitalism

Putnam3145: yo can i do multithreaded stuff in this

Astrobytes: nah

Putnam3145: ah, dang

Putnam3145: ...what happens if I try?

Astrobytes: It's multi-core architecture but you only get 1 core

Astrobytes: Not much, it'll work but you won't get any benefit, or at least very little

Astrobytes: Many people have tried

Putnam3145: meh, i'll just write it exactly like I naturally would

Putnam3145: which, yes, involves a bit of multithreading

Default avatar.png xlr4829: come to clash of CODe i want to kick some code

Default avatar.png KilliKrate: no

dbdr: Astrobytes: say hi to the boss for me ;)

Default avatar.png ackerman96: ihu

Default avatar.png ackerman96: hi

Astrobytes: lol dbdr

Astrobytes: finally!

dbdr: gz Astrobytes

Astrobytes: thanks :)

dbdr: finally you can chill in your own league again

Astrobytes: lol

trictrac: gg Astrobytes a boss only for you !!

Astrobytes: thanks trictrac, yeah, lucky me!

Waffle3z: clash of code chat keeps disappearing, is it supposed to do that

Astrobytes: Waffle3z, it's a known bug, they've not fixed it yet

aCat: nice lua code Waffle3z ;-)

Waffle3z: decay is a pain but it doesn't take a whole lot to move up places, went from around 250th to 32nd in 3 games

dbdr: what decay?

Astrobytes: CPs from CoC I think

dbdr: I know, but it barely decays since the change

dbdr: super slow

Astrobytes: Maybe he didn't play for some time

Waffle3z: long enough to decay from 1st to ~250

Waffle3z: wow tilde is literally a straight line in this font

Astrobytes: yeah, bit annoying

eulerscheZahl: how is ~ a straight line?

eulerscheZahl: looks perfectly fine to me



eulerscheZahl: fix ur fonts

eulerscheZahl: let's try to define this as a function of browser and operating system Chromium + Ubuntu here

eulerscheZahl: now we need more userse

eulerscheZahl: -e

SPDene: firefox /win 7: look twiddly to me

eulerscheZahl: win7, wow at least it's not XP anymore

SPDene: I turned my XP box into an ubuntu one a few months ago :P

Astrobytes: chrome, win 8.1 (compatibility reasons before someone moans)

inoryy: chrome, win10

inoryy: straight line

SPDene: what font is it? Open Sans Regular for me (twiddly)

eulerscheZahl: 13 px open sans, lato, sans-serif


SPDene: ahh, yeah - if I zoom out, it loses the curves

SPDene: but also makes everything else too small to read :P

Default avatar.png xlr4829: is js is good as python

dbdr: Mosaic, MS-DOS, invalid scheme: https

AntiSquid: depends what you use either of them for xlr4829

jacek: is js any good*

xSoLD3Rv: hello world

jacek: you have beautifil avatar

GSM_KS: 1-=-1

Default avatar.png xlr4829: if(your gender is woman) i love you

Default avatar.png xlr4829: fatal error : there is no girl here

benschreyer: :expressionless:

AntiSquid: UwU

stacked: how do i stop the stupid builtin IDE

stacked: its doing stupid stuff when i hit enter

stacked: like removing parentheses

eulerscheZahl: or suggesting completions. and when you hit ESC to close it, you have to click the IDE again as you lost focus

stacked: yes its so annoying

eulerscheZahl: i think we haven't found a solution yet, only CG staff can change that

Astrobytes: Only solution currently is to use an external idea

eulerscheZahl: my solution: offline IDE

Astrobytes: ide

stacked: tru

eulerscheZahl: and Astrobytes was faster this time

Astrobytes: meh, had a typo, doesn't count :P

eulerscheZahl: and i needed 3 attempts to autocomplete you, too many as.. users online

Astrobytes: Just kick 'em

Astrobytes: (kidding)

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Did crystal rush get any new inputs since the contest? My code isn't working now, and it says im not reading all the input :/

eulerscheZahl: i don't think so


eulerscheZahl: but the message that you aren't reading all inputs is new

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: "Warning: your code did not read all available input before printing an instruction, your outputs will not be synchronized with the game's turns and unexpected behaviour may occur."

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Never happened in the contest

eulerscheZahl: that warning was added recently

jacek: and it sucks

eulerscheZahl: i just compared my contest code with the current arena code. 1:1 the same

Astrobytes: If you're printing a lot to stderr try disabling it


EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Nothing changed

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I can't even read my code now, this is embarrasing

Astrobytes: Double check you're not missing anything

Astrobytes: But it does happen randomly sometimes. I hate it.

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I checked all the inputs... I'm not missing anything

Astrobytes: Stand up, turn around 3 times, clap your hands and say "neigh". Sit back down, check it again.



Astrobytes: Your loss.

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: :rolling_eyes:

Astrobytes: Seriously though, try silly things like putting your methods in a different order etc. Like if you have something that writes before something that reads, swap them. Sometimes works

Astrobytes: (reads/writes from/to stdin/stdout that is)

dbdr: Astrobytes, ready for some company?

Astrobytes: at last! :)

dbdr: long hours?

Astrobytes: Actually been taking a wee break from it for a bit!

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: Anyone got the solution for THE LUCKY NUMBER - ?

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I just reached top 2% of bot programming leaderboard!


Astrobytes: gg MCU

dbdr: maybe I spoke too soon :D

Astrobytes: BrokenSamourai_d25f Interview question right?

Astrobytes: dbdr: I honestly feel that pain

dbdr: ah, need to implement Ko rule

eulerscheZahl: mthree right?

dbdr: most of my loses seem to be Ko violations, which I knew I skipped

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: Yeah interview question, I've finished it but didn't get it fully right though. Curious to know how it's solved

eulerscheZahl: wrong answer or too slow?

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: Too slow

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: Maybe needs to use some searching algorithm?

eulerscheZahl: some observations so you can count multiple numbers without testing each of them individually

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: I don't get it :(

eulerscheZahl: how many lucky numbers are there in the range from 600 to 699?

eulerscheZahl: there are 100 numbers in total. but some contain an 8 and are not lucky

YurkovAS: dbdr is not secret - what algo you use in Search Race?

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Every number except with an 8... so that's 100-10-9

eulerscheZahl: we have 2 digits to assign and 9 candidates each (012345679), so 9^2 = 81


dbdr: SA


eulerscheZahl: great EEEEEEEEEEEEE

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I used a diff method

eulerscheZahl: but same result


YurkovAS: dbdr thanks

dbdr: offline

eulerscheZahl: and that's a simple example how to count ranges and not individual numbers. for the given puzzle you'll need some more observations and not forget a corner case

eulerscheZahl: only because illedan couldn't upload 500 validators :rofl:

Default avatar.png BrokenSamourai_d25f: Ohhhh right, now I get it. Thanks, that gave me a direction

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: I seem to time out on that puzzle

EEEEEEEEEEEEE: Maybe cus im looping through every number...

Astrobytes: that's more like it dbdr :)

dbdr: yeah :)

dbdr: ko implemented

dbdr: I still have one rule error, it seems, but rare

dbdr: the boss plays a move that I think is illegal, so I crash

Astrobytes: ah you mistake it for a suicide

dbdr: probably

dbdr: no, for a ko

Astrobytes: ah ok

MSmits: hey guys, question. Can people still use bash system calls in code golf or is this completely disabled?

dbdr: ko makes dbdr go go KO

eulerscheZahl: still possible

MSmits: i guess that explains some of my problems with getting a reasonable golf score I guess :)

dbdr: it does not matter in popular languages

eulerscheZahl: wait, i do it the other way: calling python from bash but i think the opposite still holds

dbdr: except for the top scores

MSmits: it's never worth it to call bash from python?

dbdr: so you can get a decent score without it

eulerscheZahl: it is when you suck at bash

MSmits: no i mean, for the perfect score

dbdr: I have perfect scores without system calls

eulerscheZahl: then it's most likely a bad idea

eulerscheZahl: and thor goes north now :scream:

MSmits: dbdr on the shortest languages only I guess?

Astrobytes: The North remembered

dbdr: I can check

MSmits: perl/ruby etc.?

eulerscheZahl: he got beaten by a system call in C#

MSmits: yeah but C# is real bad for golfing

eulerscheZahl: it was never designed for that purpose

dbdr: well, second in JS, but it's worth 200 points

dbdr: 199 points in C#

MSmits: hmm ok

dbdr: 199 in Java

dbdr: 200 in python

dbdr: all those without system

MSmits: python 200 on each puzzle?

eulerscheZahl: hardcoding for testcases?

dbdr: 199 in ruby

dbdr: each puzzle?

MSmits: is that worth it anywhere eulerscheZahl?

MSmits: yeah, temperatures, chuck norris etc.

MSmits: there;s 4 right

eulerscheZahl: what is "that"?

dbdr: you were asking about thor

MSmits: nope

MSmits: golfing in general

eulerscheZahl: i talked about thor going north

trictrac: gg dbdr, now 13x13

Counterbalance: for thor hardcoding was worth it (for me at least)

MSmits: yeah i was not trying to follow your discussion, i am just breaking into it for my own purposes :P

dbdr: sorry, misread

dbdr: thanks trictrac :D

eulerscheZahl: even with the new testcases added?

Counterbalance: i had to revert to 2x larger code ;)

eulerscheZahl: :D

Counterbalance: but i'm guessing that S is now N so hardocing might still be possible

MSmits: I got 77 characters on thor, best is 53

MSmits: python that is

Counterbalance: I have no idea how anyone can get to 46 chars..

eulerscheZahl: 117 :/

MSmits: wait no thats temperatures sorry

MSmits: 77 in temperatures :)

eulerscheZahl: 75 :P

AntiSquid: did thor code golf change or what

eulerscheZahl: yes

eulerscheZahl: other validators

Counterbalance: 43 :D (top is 29 - that's just magic)

MSmits: I'm just trying to get that top 2% for quest map

Astrobytes: ah I never noticed you were nr 1 in golf dbdr

eulerscheZahl: golf+optim

dbdr: golf*optim ;)

Astrobytes: nice

MSmits: how did you get good at the code golf thing. Did you practice this before CG even dbdr?

MSmits: I know it's a whole scene outside of CG also

dbdr: never done before

MSmits: oh ok

dbdr: golfing tips $language

MSmits: yeah you can find a lot of stuff I guess

MSmits: read some of those

MSmits: not motivated enough to get anywhere as good as some

MSmits: just want a decent score

eulerscheZahl: the top2%

dbdr: start by having 5 submissions in popular laguages

MSmits: right, that at least

dbdr: should be easy to get about 100 poitns in each, no?

eulerscheZahl: yeah, 5 average scores is easier than 1 top score

MSmits: which languages do you suggest?

dbdr: C# Java C++ Python JS

eulerscheZahl: java, c#, python

eulerscheZahl: (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

MSmits: are scores lineair with rank? Or is it like multi where you get very few points halfway up the board

dbdr: same exponential

MSmits: not that easy to get 100 points then

dbdr: but also same distribution

dbdr: not hard to be in top 10%

MSmits: pretty hard for me

MSmits: well i guess i can do it if i do 1 of those in an afternoon and spend a lot of time searching

dbdr: you do (almost) have that

dbdr: for the 2 languages you did in temps

MSmits: yeah but i spent quite a lot of time on that

dbdr: not enjoying it?

eulerscheZahl: golfing replays is more fun

MSmits: well it's relative i guess, i spend a lot of time on multis and enjoying it more

MSmits: it's not bad... just less fun than other things on CG

dbdr: right, it's a different mood

MSmits: yeah

dbdr: the nice thing about golf is, you can spend 1 hour and get good results

dbdr: or even less

MSmits: get some at least, the startup time is lower

dbdr: for a new language, or improve an existing solution

MSmits: right

dbdr: it's more self-contained than a multi

dbdr: shorter session

MSmits: yeah

x-N0: <

dbdr: the tips help a lot, really

x-N0: < 3

MSmits: they do

dbdr: you need both

Astrobytes: gg dbdr!

dbdr: thanks. was just visiting D

dbdr: :D

MSmits: what kind of bots do you guys use for Go?

MSmits: mcts with eval?

Astrobytes: hehehe, I'll work on it again tomorrow

jacek: apparently not only I have this problem

dbdr: greedy

MSmits: ah

dbdr: depth 1

Astrobytes: No search yet

jacek: for go? minimax of course! why would anyone bother with mcts for go?

dbdr: my sim is not even fully correct, but close

dbdr: jacek :grimacing:

dbdr: dead end

MSmits: lol

darkhorse64: MSmits:look for published puzzle solutions . There is a lot to learn

dbdr: Astrobytes, your no search is not a kind of depth 1?

Astrobytes: Nope

x-N0: < 3 ; )

dbdr: what then?

MSmits: i did darkhorse64. Not really stuck or anything. Just surprised by the insanely short solutions others find, even when I think I did pretty well

Astrobytes: Just evaluating moves based on some criteria

dbdr: that just means choosing among some options

dbdr: that's depth 1 to me

Astrobytes: No, I don't simulate the moves

dbdr: qdepth 1 ;)

Astrobytes: I was trying to get out of writing a sim until I got here

dbdr: or rather, greedy qvalue

darkhorse64: I have improved mine over the course o several months

MSmits: the hard part is figuring out what is captured right?

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: darkhorse64 you mean golf?

darkhorse64: yep

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: makes sens

MSmits: I'm just expecting too much success over a short period of time then :)

dbdr: MSmits yes, mostly

dbdr: not especially hard, but has to be done

MSmits: sounds similar to figuring out for disks in othello whether they are stable or not

dbdr: yes, like real golf, you need to practice for years ;)

darkhorse64: right now, I am struggling with Coc quests. As expected, I am slow and missing some Python idioms

MSmits: I was doing ok in clash, but not winning many

MSmits: 2nd/3rd mostly

aCat: darkhorse64 I just finished CoC questline today :D

aCat: Want a hint on 1st 3 times in a row?

MSmits: yeah i know it

MSmits: just start it fast

trictrac: dbdr welcome 19x19 ! now it will be as for othello ?

x-N0: Hey, this is strange, since the chat is activated I'm getting a request timeout from the server.

aCat: no

darkhorse64: 3 in a row and reaching top 1000 look out of reach for me. Yes please

dbdr: when opponent plays out of the 13x13 board, I crash because that's an invalid move :D

x-N0: It is just me?

aCat: a real one

MSmits: darkhorse64 top 1000 seemed easy?

dbdr: trictrac no, not planning to try this one hard right now

MSmits: you dont need to win to improve rating

aCat: top 1000 is surprisingly easy

x-N0: :rolling_eyes:

MSmits: 3 in a row is harder

dbdr: I mostly wanted to get to the top league to have the full rules

aCat: but i got trick for this :D

dbdr: do you have something advanced, trictrac?

darkhorse64: MSmits: not at all. I am stuck at 1600

aCat: got me 3 clashes to get 3 in a row ;p

MSmits: darkhorse64 how stuck?

trictrac: only an alphabeta depth 2

MSmits: how many games at 1600?

MSmits: it might slow down a bit

darkhorse64: MSmits: unable to improve over this ranking

MSmits: hmm ok

dbdr: hardcoded depth 2?

dbdr: minimax will fall over with branching without pruning

darkhorse64: aCat: what's your trick ?

MSmits: darkhorse64 which do you win/lose?

Astrobytes: darkhorse64: Will you play Atari Go soon?

MSmits: shortest/fastest/reverse?

trictrac: no adaptative but branching factor is huge and it is mostly 2

dbdr: yeah

darkhorse64: shortest is easier for me, I suck at others

MSmits: I do a little better at reverse I think

aCat: darkhorse64 join a clash as a first player - when noone is there. and probably the first one who will join be a bot then quickly lunch clash

MSmits: but shortest/fastest are meh

aCat: you will have 2 players against one which gives random solution so is mostly wery weak

aCat: you won't affect your rating very much

aCat: bot winning is relatively easy

aCat: :proud-cat:

MSmits: not a good way to get top 1000 though

MSmits: but yeah for 3 in a row

MSmits: darkhorse64 best solution for you is gonna take a lot of time

darkhorse64: I gain quite a lot of experience with golf for shortest. Google helps also a lot

dbdr: some bots are relatively good

MSmits: make a library of clashes

MSmits: after 100-200 clashes, you'll see repeats proly

dbdr: the hardest clashes are the first 2000

dbdr: then it gets easier

aCat: ...

MSmits: lol

aCat: 500

aCat: and I'm done

FLQ4: how do i print vars in python

darkhorse64: 80 atm for me

aCat: maybe not forever, but close to eternity

MSmits: print("vars")

FLQ4: i am trying to solve a shortest problem

FLQ4: no

FLQ4: i mean like

FLQ4: print(mx, mn)

MSmits: thats how

MSmits: you figured it out

FLQ4: k thanks self

MSmits: lol

MSmits: :duck:

darkhorse64: Does the Coc quest unlock smth ? I have already won two levels and I probably should spend my time on bots

aCat: no other path to unlock

aCat: just xp

aCat: nooo

aCat: sorry

darkhorse64: Why sorry ?

aCat: "contribution" path after 4th

Astrobytes: why is that blocked by clashes?

aCat: it was so long ago i didn't notice

aCat: no damn idea

darkhorse64: Got it because I completed all other quests

Astrobytes: Doesn't seem sensible

aCat: probably because 90% of contributions are damn clashes

MSmits: true, but they arent hard clash quests I think

darkhorse64: hacker/god path are still projects ?

Astrobytes: yeah aCat, yeah darkhorse64

aCat: hacker path?

Astrobytes: yep, will be added at some point apparently

Astrobytes: with SEcret Things

darkhorse64: The rest has been easy: I only wrote a new version for CoTR, the rest was click and collect

aCat: I'm stuck at marslander

MSmits: i did all cotr validators by hand :P

aCat: and puzzle of the week

Astrobytes: I had to do some optim, some golf and a puzzle

MSmits: also have some default code, but its crap

aCat: other fully done

darkhorse64: This week puzzle is quite easy

aCat: I know

darkhorse64: ML is a lot harder

aCat: when is the change - monday?

Astrobytes: Still the Sudoku one?

aCat: ML I wanted to tackle from years

aCat: yep

darkhorse64: Yes and yes

Default avatar.png JBM: the sudoku one's not that bad

MSmits: dbdr after you said beam search for cotr I had a real real hard time resisting starting one. After you said it, it suddenly seemed easy

MSmits: couldnt get it out of my head

aCat: BTW - let someone finally approve myy contribution :crying_cat_face:

Astrobytes: Ah I've not written anything for it yet

aCat: MSmits darkhorse64 new optim is intown

eulerscheZahl: be patient aCat

MSmits: which one is that?

aCat: cats are not patient :D

eulerscheZahl: better a careful review than a rushed approval

eulerscheZahl: same game, optim

Astrobytes: Like a certain Radek... :P

MSmits: top of my list is currently breakthrough, which is also his


darkhorse64: you gain XP while waiting

aCat: true

MSmits: oh i thought you said it was darkhorse64's optim

eulerscheZahl: i guess that's the whole point of the troll castle game

Astrobytes: lol

dbdr: it's a troll contrib

Astrobytes: Farmer JBM

aCat: make fake accounts and give approves to yourself :P

eulerscheZahl: 87 upvotes so far

eulerscheZahl: the contributions with the most is space maze with 88

MSmits: looks cool aCat

cegprakash: hi

aCat: *upvotes

aCat: thanks

Default avatar.png JBM: hey i'm noe the one who synchronized the quest thing with my reluctance to pass the finish line

aCat: more will be comeing

Astrobytes: A wild cegprakash appears!

cegprakash: does anyone remember me

aCat: new AI4Games with grant new cg-based lab classes

MSmits: i cannot forget, no matter how hard I try

darkhorse64: We all do

MSmits: :P

Default avatar.png JBM: who's that

cegprakash: what's hot these days

cegprakash: been long time I was away

Astrobytes: The sun mostly

cegprakash: I mean in Codingame

darkhorse64: and quests

Astrobytes: Yeah, check your homepage

Astrobytes: And try not to give us a running commentary :P

cegprakash: oh no

cegprakash: XP introduction

cegprakash: let me try

darkhorse64: It will take you busy for a while

cegprakash: wow I got 10 xp just for clicking

cegprakash: looks like easy

darkhorse64: 4K+ XP waiting for you

eulerscheZahl: close to 5k even

cegprakash: I'm doing a dfs with my mouse

MSmits: good one

eulerscheZahl: i did a BFS to fill the waiting time for the next quest to reveal

MSmits: efficient

MSmits: anyone do A*?

MSmits: not me though, I did a random walk

darkhorse64: I did, Coc Path is costly

Astrobytes: ^

Default avatar.png JBM: optim is

Waffle3z: I still haven't done the mars lander 2

Default avatar.png JBM: coc was free

MSmits: optim is hardest for me yeah

Default avatar.png JBM: and elitist

MSmits: is mars lander 2 part of quest path?

Default avatar.png JBM: almost

Default avatar.png JBM: ml-opt is

cegprakash: I completed only 1 quest

cegprakash: :\

cegprakash: AI quest

MSmits: oh crap

Astrobytes: Fix it ceg

MSmits: thats gonna be hard for me, marslander optim that is

MSmits: doesnt that need ga?

Default avatar.png JBM: i just picked up the first github hit

Default avatar.png JBM: you don't need a good score

Default avatar.png JBM: just pass it

MSmits: i guess so

MSmits: hmm, that might be a good way to pick up a GA example to learn from

cegprakash: COC is the toughest quest?

MSmits: not for you

Default avatar.png JBM: i tried that months ago

Default avatar.png JBM: didn't work out, but i did get some cool pix out of it

MSmits: are you still talking about marslander?

Default avatar.png JBM: yes

MSmits: hmm ok

darkhorse64: The good thing with GA for ML is that you strike three birds ith one stone

darkhorse64: *with*

MSmits: which 3 birds?

Default avatar.png JBM: which would that be?

MSmits: also why the animal cruelty

darkhorse64: ML2,ML3, ML optim

Astrobytes: !banned for cruelty

MSmits: ah i already solved ml2

Default avatar.png JBM: opt and 2 ok

MSmits: with heuristics

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm not quite sure that would pass 3 directly

Default avatar.png JBM: then you're all set

Default avatar.png JBM: just submit that and mve on

MSmits: why am i set?

MSmits: dont i need a minimum score?

Default avatar.png JBM: mo

Default avatar.png JBM: well

Default avatar.png JBM: 100%

MSmits: oh, then I'm done!

Default avatar.png JBM: but no other score

MSmits: I even got the achiev

MSmits: for least fuel somewhere

MSmits: below some value fuel

Default avatar.png JBM: that may be ml1

MSmits: dont remember exactly

eulerscheZahl: 300 fuel left

MSmits: no i think also for ml2

darkhorse64: Yeah, you get some more feathers

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: from the birds?

Waffle3z: I need 10 more achievements for the 100 achievements

Astrobytes: Go forth and achieve!

Default avatar.png JBM: just don't overachieve

dbdr: achieve is a PL?

eulerscheZahl: write some forum posts and collect likes

Waffle3z: pretty sure I already did that

Default avatar.png JBM: that's still an achievement?

eulerscheZahl: yes

Waffle3z: where can I see what the achievements are

Astrobytes: Farm some language achievements perhaps

eulerscheZahl: 5 even i think

dbdr: invite 100 people

darkhorse64: I even solve ML1 with my GA adapted to a one dimensional problem, 321 fuel left

Default avatar.png JBM: only 20

Default avatar.png JBM: (which is enough of a pain)

Default avatar.png JBM: ml1-opt is closed-form

Default avatar.png JBM: mmm

Default avatar.png JBM: i'm pretty sure ml2 too actually, just hairier

Default avatar.png JBM: (with real continuous physics)

Astrobytes: Wig Lander 2

Astrobytes: Good optim game idea. Land the wig on the moving owner.

Default avatar.png JBM: bald trolls of the world unite

Astrobytes: Bald Troll Lander

Astrobytes: Mars Lander 4 - Mars Attacks!: Land Mars on the spaceship.

MSmits: is it that time of night again

Astrobytes: Sorry.

MSmits: usually we start after euler went to bed

Astrobytes: :D

cegprakash: code vs zombies prob statement too long

Astrobytes: Oh how we missed you cegprakash

MSmits: cegprakash does this mean you're going to do all the things wrong that are explained in the statement and then complain to us about it?

MSmits: just wondering, it's ok either way

Illedan: lol

Astrobytes: Hey Illedan, moved OK?

Illedan: Still 20 boxes to unpack :(

Illedan: and no internett

jacek: hmm there was paper about training neural network the game rules

Astrobytes: Ah, it'll be done soon enough

MSmits: yes this is an improvement over alpha zero

MSmits: mu zero

Illedan: Yeah, we will get there :)

jacek: what if we spam submit bots for it to learn the game rules? no need to read the statement then

Illedan: I'll set up my office tomorrow and pretend I have perfect internet for a week

Astrobytes: :D

MSmits: jacek that is cegprakash actual strategy

jacek: way ahead of us

Astrobytes: Ceg Learning

MSmits: Illedan you mean to avoid having to read mail?

Illedan: I can still go to work :P

Illedan: Just double the bicycle distance

Illedan: 15 km

Illedan: -.-

MSmits: mmh, electric I'd say

Astrobytes: Ah that's not too bad, except at hometime

Illedan: Downhill to work

Astrobytes: Ah jeez

Illedan: which makes the way home a pain :D

MSmits: yeah life goes downhill when at work

**MSmits agrees

cegprakash: u guys still making cegA jokes?

MSmits: we stopped a bit cegprakash

MSmits: but then you came back

Astrobytes: :grin:

MSmits: it's because we love you

Astrobytes: Really.

MSmits: it's because some of us love you

Astrobytes: lol

MSmits: think maybe I found a mistake or two 30 plies deep in oware :P

MSmits: by robo's bot

MSmits: that bot is crazy good

Astrobytes: Oh I forgot you were still running that

Default avatar.png JBM: what's a cega koje?

Default avatar.png JBM: something to do with sega?

MSmits: it's starting to show +2 seeds as expected endgame value after 30 plies deep, which means he made a mistake somewhere I think

jacek: imagine how many crypto he would mine in this time

MSmits: also with cg bench he loses games now if i add the book

Astrobytes: May god have mercy on that leaderboard

MSmits: nahh, it's a lot of work trying to counter 5 nn's from p1 and p2 perspective. Will be a while

MSmits: but doable

jacek: 5 nns?

MSmits: yours isnt a nn?

jacek: robo agad recurs me, thats 4

MSmits: maybe i need to count better

MSmits: it's 4

jacek: i should put that in my book

MSmits: what

jacek: your mistake

MSmits: sure, you have a book of my mistakes?

Astrobytes: hehehe

jacek: too big for code limit

MSmits: lol

Astrobytes: :fire:

MSmits: ye nice burn

MSmits: I also have a meta mcts running for othello btw

MSmits: but it converges very poorly

MSmits: took 2 days to even show which 1 of the 3 choices on ply 2 are bad

jacek: and you take symmetries into account

MSmits: it does eventually give the same best moves as the ntest opening book, but takes a looooong time

MSmits: yes

MSmits: even player symmetry

MSmits: player 1 and player 2 can have the same gamestate

MSmits: due to pass turns

Astrobytes: 2 days!

MSmits: so a node may be a p1 node yet also a p2 node

Astrobytes: Get that running on multiple threads

MSmits: nah I'm ok with it being slow, I like the observe the process :)

Astrobytes: Masochist :D

MSmits: btw, my live bot, actually follows ntest very closely

MSmits: one game i saw 16 plies in, my bot still followed ntest book, while jacek deviated 3 times

MSmits: but my meta mcts has a hard time getting there

MSmits: probably because it takes 10k games or so until the "exploration" effect wears off

MSmits: from a certain node

jacek: i like deviations

MSmits: yeah who knows, maybe they arent bad

Astrobytes: jacek the deviant

MSmits: :grin:

jacek: it sucks to do more learning at this point

MSmits: how so?

jacek: i can overfit my bot to 3-ply and win against 3-ply by 60% but it will be weaker i general

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: why does dbd r's bot beat yours?

MSmits: is it the probcut?

MSmits: you can get quite deep with that

jacek: dbd uses multi probcut and he has 300k wieghts

MSmits: yeah

jacek: i use best first and can get deep also, but more blindly

MSmits: my best version against him still wins 40%, I have by far a harder time vs you

MSmits: so maybe his bot is not actually stronger than yours

MSmits: but its rps

jacek: so you have the power to pull him down

MSmits: yeah with submit spam

MSmits: assuming that what i do through cg bench is the same what happens on submit

MSmits: not sure how his compiled version submit thingy works

MSmits: this is one example


MSmits: dont remember what the param values were there


MSmits: another, somewhat better vs you

jacek: 2 crashes? their?

MSmits: yeah

MSmits: very rare

MSmits: 1 in 100 or so

MSmits: i have them too

MSmits: and you do too

trictrac: Msmits you need to take in account that rust is not released compiled in CG bench So db dr bot is not @ his max

MSmits: I'm not sure trictrac, he sent a compiled version

MSmits: so it should be the same ?

trictrac: Perhaps i make a mistake but when i try online it's the case

MSmits: he compiled locally and then submitted it

MSmits: it plays worse in IDE ?

trictrac: yes It seems

MSmits: did you try for Othello too?

MSmits: or in other games?

trictrac: in other games

MSmits: dbdr said he did it differently for othello

Waffle3z: got to 100 achievements by spamming onboarding with different language solutions

MSmits: to give us a chance to test in cg bench

MSmits: he compiled locally and then submitted

MSmits: so all optimizations should work?

trictrac: ok good news

trictrac: we have the real power in cg bench

MSmits: yeah, but only because he lets us do that

jacek: he compiled to fit his 300k weights, not for out convinience

MSmits: it's nice

MSmits: oh ok

MSmits: jacek destroying my faith in humanity once again

MSmits: that deviant

trictrac: how to put 300 k weights in 100Ko of code !?

MSmits: packing

MSmits: he said they pack well

MSmits: btw trictrac, you added an opening book right?

MSmits: was it ntest?

MSmits: or just a few moves?

trictrac: a very small one

MSmits: ah like yavalath?

MSmits: your yavalath book is very tiny

trictrac: yes very small

MSmits: ah ok

MSmits: it would be real easy for me to use ntest to hardcode moves

MSmits: but i want to use my own program :)

MSmits: it's fun

jacek: where did you get ntest book? i think i got one, but its in weird format

MSmits: oh actually i dont mean the data, i just mean their program.

MSmits: your bots are super deterministic i bet... so i can just follow the choices you make and let ntest counter them, hardcode that and win

MSmits: but not gonna do it

jacek: ahh if just something like that existed for oware...

MSmits: much harder, your bots make very very few mistakes and most of them will be trained not to make their mistakes early game

Astrobytes: maybe MSmits will publish it :P

MSmits: if you train a bot, the opening game occurs more than the mid or late game

MSmits: so it will be best there, is my theory

jacek: one of my method is to train from the end

MSmits: but there are many ends

MSmits: and there is only 1 opening

MSmits: and because so many moves are bad and the branching is on average 5, you get a very deterministic, almost perfect 20-30 first plies

MSmits: so it's hard to write a hardcoded book for this

MSmits: because you need to go very deep to find the mistakes

MSmits: it can go 200 turns...

jacek: at the beginning i have random eval, but with 8 ply minimax i can have 8 plies perfect endgames, so i save those positions. then haveing endgame eval, i save and train earlier positions and so on

MSmits: hmm but why not just calculate a 6 seed endgame book?

MSmits: i mean calculate, not put it in codesize

jacek: im too dumb for that

MSmits: doubt that :P

jacek: but i use this method for all stages. just play gazillion games to get endgames, then to get pre endgames and so on up to the beginning

MSmits: sounds good

MSmits: is this common? Or your own recipe?

jacek: my own but i bet it was tried somewhere before

MSmits: ah ok

jacek: the other method i used to train bigger net is to generate random games, let my best bot evaluate each position for some plies, then match bigger net to those eval

MSmits: as for a hardcoded book. Even if I can find a mistake at ply 30 by your bot or Robos that guarantees me +1 or +2 seeds, I still have to play flawlessly, possibly to turn 200.

MSmits: well nearly so

jacek: so i.e. the 0ply eval would more resemble the 2ply search

MSmits: sounds complicated

cegprakash: oh I got an idea for code vs zombies

jacek: its quite simple. and apparently this is new kink in chess community

cegprakash: I didn't read the statement

jacek: stockfish nnue uses something similar

cegprakash: I printed random x y

cegprakash: then figured out the game

MSmits: ah I see

jacek: ceg are you good with reverse mode clash?

cegprakash: nope

cegprakash: I am bad at any clash in general

cegprakash: reverse mode I suck even more

cegprakash: shortest is what I'm worst at

Waffle3z: did you have a reverse mode problem

jacek: but you reversed the code vs zombies

cegprakash: I see what's happening.. that's not reverse mode like jacek

cegprakash: in reverse mode I only see wrong

cegprakash: but here I see what's wrong

cegprakash: I found that zombie can never eat me

cegprakash: it can only eat humans

cegprakash: and I just have to save the human that I like

cegprakash: and let others die

cegprakash: like Trump

cegprakash: it's as simple

AntiSquid: ceg i think you could become president of the US if you wanted to

Default avatar.png **JBM awaits the punchline

AntiSquid: was an honest opinion. no further comments

cegprakash: oh shit I lost in split second reflex

Astrobytes: aww

cegprakash: i got another idea

cegprakash: i need to do minimax

Astrobytes: Here we go

AntiSquid: minimax in clash of code?

Default avatar.png JBM: hey why not

AntiSquid: i am no expert in clash, i am really bad at it, but minimax in there doesn't make any sense @_@

Default avatar.png JBM: why wouldn't it?

AntiSquid: those are meant to be quick to solve puzzles

cegprakash: no code vs zombies is first step in optimisation

Default avatar.png JBM: minimax is hardly an advanced alg

cegprakash: I thought greedy would work as it's the first problem

cegprakash: or wait

cegprakash: I think greedy can work

cegprakash: with some precomputation

AntiSquid: it's advanced for clash puzzles

AntiSquid: can't think of a clash puzzle where you'd need it

Astrobytes: he's doing CvZ tho'

cegprakash: I once did GA in a clash

Astrobytes: ofc you did

cegprakash: I was streaming

Astrobytes: With your prune array

cegprakash: no

Default avatar.png JBM: plum array?

Astrobytes: Much drier

cegprakash: it was some float search with accuracy of 4 decimal places

cegprakash: and answer lies between 0 and 100

AntiSquid: well i heard a story of someone doing a NN for fizzbuzz in an interview, sure you can say "why not" but you know why not

cegprakash: so I did 0 to 100 with a +0.0001 iteration

cegprakash: loop

cegprakash: and searched for answer

Astrobytes: ...

cegprakash: it was a math problem

AntiSquid: iteration loop is an oxymoron

cegprakash: not exactly GA but a search

Astrobytes: Welcome back ceg, welcome back

cegprakash: :D

MSmits: it is said that if you say something often enough, you will believe it

Astrobytes: "I looked in my pocket for the solution, wasn't a NN but I searched"

AntiSquid: it was a gradient descent loop

Counterbalance: tautology, not oxymoron

MSmits: yeah, tautology

Putnam3145: redundancy more like

Astrobytes: ^

MSmits: :P

Default avatar.png JBM: oxymoron not tautology

AntiSquid: indeed tautology ... was relying on you Automaton2000 to correct my mistake, thought you were my friend

Automaton2000: i think it was just a joke

Counterbalance: lol

Astrobytes: Actually yeah, since an iteration is not necessarily a loop

MSmits: he thought you were kidding

MSmits: thats how stupid it was :Pp

MSmits: :P

AntiSquid: friendship is no joke Automaton2000

Astrobytes: well played A2000

Automaton2000: i want you to get the score

Putnam3145: if you look at machine code that isn't aggressively optimized for speed you will find that even known-at-compile-time for loops are still loops

Astrobytes: Thank you for that informative nugget

MSmits: lemme go look at some machine code, because that is some powerful statement

cegprakash: did anyone finish code vs zombies with less deaths?

Putnam3145: "aggressively optimized for speed" here meaning e.g.

cegprakash: is there a mode like that

Putnam3145: -O2 vs -O3

AntiSquid: Putnam3145 cheers, please get an avatar and welcome to the CG community

MSmits: cegprakash nope you just get more points if more humans live

Astrobytes: He does AntiSquid

Default avatar.png Galaxy_001:

Default avatar.png JBM: yes, welcome

cegprakash: oh damn

Default avatar.png Galaxy_001: thank you

AntiSquid: ah i need to refresh, my bad Putnam3145

cegprakash: I thought I just have to save 1 human

MSmits: yes

MSmits: only 1

AntiSquid: putnam nice avatar, unlike JBM's

MSmits: but you get more points with more live humans

Counterbalance: the formula favours killing zombies more than saving humans

MSmits: favours killing more within 1 frame

Default avatar.png JBM: how dare you criticize the cg artwork

cegprakash: oh shit so it's GA

MSmits: I did a monte carlo

Default avatar.png Galaxy_001: convert your program into machine code.

MSmits: that only kicks in if i dont have a hardcoded solution

Astrobytes: We know Galaxy_001, thanks :)

MSmits: monte carlo worked ok

MSmits: was easy to code too

Putnam3145: well that's assembly technically, however,

Putnam3145: i did mean assembly in the first place

Default avatar.png Galaxy_001: welcome.

cegprakash: i think it's a GA

cegprakash: choose an area to defend

cegprakash: then expand from there

AntiSquid: but do you mutate ?

MSmits: it's not really about defending aside from making sure you lure the zombies away from at least 1 human

cegprakash: but choosing the area is random

MSmits: it's about herding the zombies together

MSmits: and then killing them all at once

cegprakash: wait what u can herd :O

MSmits: they will follow you, if you are closest to them

Counterbalance: ah you have the rank i used to have there, msmits.. time to revisit (and cheat, probably, like the top 5 ;))

MSmits: you are faster

MSmits: I cheated too Counterbalance

Astrobytes: Cheat better

Counterbalance: not fair!

MSmits: true

MSmits: my Mc was rank 200-250 or so

MSmits: it's over a year ago though

Astrobytes: I just can't do the validator cheats

cegprakash: i don't think it's called herding

cegprakash: it's still defending

MSmits: dont remember all the details, except i wrote a unity program that used a mix of hardcoded moves and optimization functions to get a good route

cegprakash: and then exapanding

Astrobytes: I don't mind or anything, just not for ,e

Astrobytes: *me

cegprakash: herding is no use if we can't defend the right humans

Astrobytes: Rules to live by ceg

MSmits: well Astrobytes, if you consider it in the same light as number shifting, it seems ok

MSmits: you still need to figure out the best route, that doesnt come free

Astrobytes: Yeah, that's fair. But leaked validators though

MSmits: i did it on cotr and zombies

Astrobytes: Still, freely available which evens the field

MSmits: not A*craft, still my contest bot there

Astrobytes: Must do that again, liked that

MSmits: I liked it ok, had no idea how to solve it though

AntiSquid: there was some CG meme with the keyword herding and i can't remember it :/

MSmits: i just did some DFS

Putnam3145: why the heck is my simulation moving backwards, i wonder

MSmits: with backtracking

Astrobytes: Time distortion. Black hole maybe. Run. Run away.

Putnam3145: by which i mean i just sorta implemented the movement code like they implied I should, in coders strike back

x-N0: Too much smart challenges for today, lets do some crud.

x-N0: >D

Putnam3145: but looking at the debug output

MSmits: Putnam3145 physics shows the universe is symmetric with respect to time and at the level of particles, you cant tell which direction time is flowing

Putnam3145: the simulated one is going PRECISELY backwards

Astrobytes: Precisely at the moment you observed it perhaps

Putnam3145: timeless physics is interesting but T-symmetry isn't actually a thing even in quantum mechanics IIRC

MSmits: CPT symmetry is

Putnam3145: *CPT*-symmetry is, which is where you can't tell the universe moving forwards in time from the universe moving backwards in time, and also mirrored, and with all charges reversed

MSmits: yes

Putnam3145: this is where that news about a "parallel universe made of antimatter" a few months back came from

MSmits: yeah

Putnam3145: it's a valid solution to consider that time is infinite in both directions, and if you go into "negative time" past the big bang you get an identical, mirrored universe made of antimatter, where time flows backwards

MSmits: and it's also why in feynman diagrams anti matter is drawn as moving back in time

Putnam3145: but like, it's a *valid solution*

Putnam3145: there's no strong evidence for it

MSmits: makes sense

Putnam3145: or, really, even weak evidence, that news article was reporting on something which could be explained by many things, one of which HAPPENS to be that hypothesis

AntiSquid: where can i read more about this?

AntiSquid: any links?

MSmits: hmm

Counterbalance: there's no evidence whatsoever that time and space exist ;)

Astrobytes: All solutions are valid solutions until proven otherwise

AntiSquid: there's no evidence anything exists, i am just imagining everything Counterbalance

MSmits: AntiSquid i just picked most of this up from an introduction to elementary particles by David Griffiths

MSmits: very mathy though

AntiSquid: ah i have that book ... was going to start reading it, but i keep procrastinating

Putnam3145: unfortunately there's no articles I can find that aren't clickbait "SCIENTISTS CONFIRM PARALLEL UNIVERSE" stuff


MSmits: found it

AntiSquid: ya i have the book already, but thanks :p

MSmits: it's awesome AntiSquid. I got to chapter 7 or so reading and did all the exercises up to chapter 5

Putnam3145: i literally could not believe it when one of the recent major video game releases had baryon asymmetry as not just a part of the plot but as the actual crux of the worldbuilding

MSmits: Higgs particle is in chapter 11 i think

Putnam3145: like, who does that

Astrobytes: For god's sakes Jim I'm a bilogist not a damn physicist

Astrobytes: *biologist

Putnam3145: i mean, I did think about making an entire RPG based entirely around, like, group theory

MSmits: we will talk about elelphants and giraffes later Astrobytes

Astrobytes: :grin:

MSmits: :)

Putnam3145: then realized I was slightly in over my head and started work on building an entire magic system that I wouldn't tell anyone was literally just quaternions,

Putnam3145: the fact that I am telling anyone should say how well that panned out

MSmits: panned is a pun?

Putnam3145: i feel like it ought to be but I'm not sure why

Counterbalance: AntiSquid exactly

Astrobytes: "panned critically" is a thing

Putnam3145: oh, it's because I'm adding my acceleration vector

Putnam3145: to my position

Putnam3145: instead of my velocity vector

Putnam3145: well, that would do it

MSmits: sorry guys, I did not know mentioning time would unleash the putnam

MSmits: I will censor the physics part of myself when he is online to preserve your sanity

Astrobytes: noted

Putnam3145: mildly perturbed that it took me no more than 12 hours to become known for being unleashed when certain topics come up

Putnam3145: usually it takes longer

Astrobytes: Welcome.

MSmits: yeah welcome

Counterbalance: time always seems to run out very fast here on cg

MSmits: yeah

Default avatar.png JBM: so i suppose asking how is ur csb is a bit late

Putnam3145: actually it's been 36 hours, oh no

Putnam3145: i miscounted an entire day

Astrobytes: PW - Perception Wrecker > CG

MSmits: it happens

Astrobytes: putnams perception of time has already been wrecked

MSmits: yeah, he just flipped his charge and parity and hoped he would get that time back but alas

AntiSquid: what? no. don't kill physics discussions in chat, that's like censorship, freedom of speech is endorsed here

Astrobytes: lol * 2

Astrobytes: Scientific discussions are indeed welcome

MSmits: yeah we do that a lot

MSmits: first time I find someone that knows what cpt symmetry is though

MSmits: well maybe if AntiSquid spent more time reading his book it would have happened sooner

Astrobytes: I'd heard of it, that doesn't really count though, putnam knew it

AntiSquid: well i would have known it too if i were spending more time reading

Astrobytes: Ahh the symmetry

MSmits: my two finger typing seems quite sufficient

AntiSquid: lol

AntiSquid: well the other book i got at the same time based on a recommandation was: "Weinberg S. Gravitation and cosmology.. principles and applications of the general theory of relativity"

AntiSquid: didn't start reading that one either

MSmits: sounds good

MSmits: can you follow the math in it? I am guessing so, but this stuff is not popular scientific literature

MSmits: it's actual physics for people with calculus, which you do get when studying CS I suppose

Astrobytes: Squiddy's good with maths

MSmits: elementary particle physics was not exactly easy

MSmits: ah well that helps

AntiSquid: when reading physics books i don't always understand the formula but if you follow the text carefully along with the formula you kinda understand what is being talked about from the entire context

MSmits: true

AntiSquid: also some formulas are explained in detailed and proved step by step so ...

Astrobytes: True. If you show the proof it can be easier to follow, applies in many situations

AntiSquid: i also pay close attention to the conclusions and interpretations of the formula by the author, very interesting insight to take note of sometimes

MSmits: before I discovered CG, one of my hobby's was this:


AntiSquid: he doesn't just take the formula at face value ...

Astrobytes: You're wasted in your current job AntiSquid you know that right

MSmits: those are solutions of a QfT book i did some exercises from

MSmits: i typed them out in word equation editor :P

AntiSquid: nobody is wasted, i didn't put in enough effort to go further

AntiSquid: or i wasn't convincing enough

Astrobytes: Never too late

AntiSquid: MSmits ya i have difficulties understanding most of that

AntiSquid: img

MSmits: it's a matter of time invested really

Astrobytes: I don't mean you are a waste, I mean you're not fulfilling your potential in your current job

MSmits: you probably could if you started from the beginning

MSmits: everyone here has the minimum intelligence level to get started and learn all of that stuff

AntiSquid: is there an easy tutorial? you know like tutorialspoint is for different coding languages ?

MSmits: hmm well you can get started at different points

MSmits: and it depends a lot on what knowledge you're missing

AntiSquid: mainly understanding and remembering what the various glyphs mean

MSmits: ohh

MSmits: those are mostly integrals and symbols for wave functions i think

MSmits: yeah and derivatives

MSmits: you know integral calculus?

MSmits: not sure how far you got with that

Astrobytes: All the 'non-standard' mathy ones are from the wave function AntiSquid

MSmits: yeah, this is mostly basic quantum mechanics i think

Astrobytes: I'm having chemistry flashbacks

MSmits: it's chapter 1 and 2 of the book

Astrobytes: Yup

MSmits: btw to be fair this was a harder book than elementary particle physics, but icouldnt find my solutions for that, i think i did them on paper

MSmits: doing these ones on paper is a nightmare

Astrobytes: Maple

MSmits: i would try to write them out and then make mistakes and it would become unreadable

MSmits: yeah, that would probabyl have been better

MSmits: i got real fast with word equation editor though

Astrobytes: I never want to see word equation editor again. Ever.

MSmits: i didnt know any better

Astrobytes: I used maple or typed up my shit in latex

MSmits: i used to use latex but it was such a long time ago, i didnt want to relearn it

Astrobytes: Probably take less time than word equation editor :D

MSmits: maybe

MSmits: i think when solving exercises like these, the thinking time is the bottleneck anyway

Astrobytes: Still, whatever works at the time eh

Astrobytes: Yeah totally

Astrobytes: I used to do everything on whiteboard first anyway

MSmits: i suck at writing on whiteboards, my handwriting is bad. I am lucky for being a teacher in the digital age

MSmits: lots of powerpoint

MSmits: i do some stuff on whiteboard, but I need to focus not to screw up

Astrobytes: Oh I'm terrible on classroom whiteboards, for my own use I'm good

MSmits: ahh ok

Astrobytes: "Can you write that a lot bigger please"

Astrobytes: Still have that issue at the conservation centre lol

MSmits: well, I did notice that whenever i hand the marker to a student, they are always much worse

Astrobytes: Winning

dbdr: MSmits: is this an interesting problem?

MSmits: lol, yeah kinda

Astrobytes: mwahaha that is MSmits 100%

MSmits: electricity is not my thing, but this sort of trick does work on me

Astrobytes: Never noticed :P

MSmits: :grin:

Astrobytes: Anyways, I'm out for tonight. Take care all, bn/gn/w/e

MSmits: gn!

AntiSquid: so mathematicians value more than physicists

MSmits: value more?

AntiSquid: see the nerd sniping png

AntiSquid: 3 points, not just 2

MSmits: oh right

MSmits: maybe it's harder to make it work on mathematicians

Ashraful: Anyone needs me as a helper for project?

Ashraful: at GitHub?

Ashraful: I am interested in teamwork.

Ashraful: Zafar Iqbal, I have detected you

AntiSquid: you can google for "github project to contribute to"

AntiSquid: or check the list on github directly, they have some list for beginners

Anth: Ohh, I like the new layout

Anth: everyone else in shock or asleep?

th3h3r0: asleep

Anth: ok, react tomorrow then

Default avatar.png terminatorRain: emmm. it's hard

Anth: What's hard?

awray3: shock?

CassyWu: is there anyone can see my message? how can i join a font-end tech group?

th3h3r0: no

Putnam3145: what precisely does "group" mean here

CassyWu: actually, i'm new guy , have no idea how to play.:joy:

th3h3r0: slowly

TheTaskmaster: sup

LeBaoHoang8A4: Hello, i'm struggling with bug in coders strike back silver league. That bug makes me turn around the checkpoint, how to fix it?