gokubill: hi
jacek: oO
gokubill: spam spam =]]
Zorg1: nice gn spam ;-)
aCat: morning
aCat: (late morning I mean ;p)
j4at: morning
jacek: j4at overnight training brought me to 6th :tada:
j4at: :tada:
eulerscheZahl: for me the night brought me to 10th already
putibuzu: gz
jacek: bz2
MSmits: lol, this submti
MSmits: submit
MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/msmits
MSmits: if i spam this bot, jacek is 2nd and robo goes out of the top 10
jacek: spam plx
MSmits: hehe sorry, just experimenting. I think this is a good one, but it's hard to say when most of its rating comes from bashing robo
jacek: good enough
MSmits: I've had one before that did the same to you. I wonder if that one was better
jacek: im at the about its 100% win against my test bots https://i.imgur.com/xXsANfw.png
jacek: its improving but i cant see it anymore
MSmits: looks good
jacek: at the point*
MSmits: make more testbots
jacek: i think i can get to top3 with those inputs. i thought using inputs for the whole board would be required
MSmits: i can't comment on that, i havent tried to understand the game yet
jacek: i dont understand that game either ~
MSmits: right, but if i did, i could help you maybe. Too busy with crosses and circles though
IonutH: hi. what happens if I submit my code with 0% result in Clash of Code? How does affect my rank? What if others do the same in a game? Do I have an advantage if I do it fist, meaning to give up?
jacek: its based on rank. if youre 1st with 0% then you win
jacek: or if shortest, 0% with 0 bytes wins i think
Thorcode: 0 bytes in shortest lose
jacek: oh
IonutH: thank you for answers
Thorcode: you must type a letter
Thorcode: if you give up
MSmits: an apology letter?
Thorcode: in shortest if you give you just delete all and type an letter
jacek: thats short for sure
IonutH: oh nice hint
MSmits: err, it's better just to not lose :)
Thorcode: it give you a chance to win
MSmits: I guess
j4at: jacek what hardware are you using for training?
MSmits: he's using a chromebook :P
j4at: yeah, probably :p
jacek: cpu ryzen 7 5800X. i have 2060 gpu but i didnt managed to make it work to my needs yet
j4at: my dude have a gpu and using the cpu instead :p
jacek: :shrug:
DomiKo: j4cat gpu is useless
DomiKo: trust me
j4at: no its not
DomiKo: yes it is
j4at: it speeds training a lot
DomiKo: not really
j4at: huh ????
DomiKo: its speeds when you network is big
jacek: maybe for big deep nets
j4at: use a big batch size
j4at: problem fixed :)
DomiKo: but for small networks cost of transfering memory from CPU to GPU is much higher then rest
DomiKo: no
DomiKo: it's not about batch size
j4at: you do'nt need to transfer it tho
jacek: + big batch size leads to poorer training
DomiKo: true
RafIntalian: Hello everyone
j4at: well it really depends
MSmits: hello RafIntalian
j4at: for exemple openai is using 2million batchsize for gpt3 :p
j4at: There is some tricks to make larger batchsize better
jacek: jax or evojax looks promising for many small nets
MSmits: jax? shortened from jacek?
j4at: I'm using 512 batchsize for my search race
MSmits: jaxmax
DomiKo: 512 is not much, but when you have many millions of samples, you can't fit them into GPU, so you have to transfer
j4at: heh ? you said small neural networks
DomiKo: network is small, but you have many samples
j4at: That is not costly really
j4at: I keep all samples in the CPU
DomiKo: transferring the memory?
j4at: transferring samples yes
j4at: because we are not dealing with images here
DomiKo: images?
DomiKo: for me memory transfer is around 80% of the whole GPU time
j4at: maybe you are doing it wrong
jacek: plug your gpu closer to ram
DomiKo: PyTorch lighting is doing everything for me
DomiKo: so I can't really do something wrong
MSmits: lighting? I thought it was for training NN
j4at: maybe your gpu is connected to psu x1 or something
j4at: lmao
DomiKo: MSmits yeah lighting
MSmits: I guess usually training NN gives heat, but I guess pytorch is different
MSmits: is it natural light? Or more like LED?
jacek: its optical computer
DomiKo: xD
DomiKo: it's lighting fast!
MSmits: I am starting to get the sense you mean lightning?
DomiKo: ohh yeah
j4at: did a test. in gpu it takes .05s for every "iteration" (training 4 nns) and in cpu it takes 1s even if i made it train 1/2 nns it will still be faster
j4at: Maybe you have gtx 1030
j4at: or using an igpu
j4at: with 2 nn it takes .025s proving that data transfer almost takes no time in this case
putibuzu: how large are the NNs?
j4at: Well its hard to explain. I will make them even smaller
putibuzu: what data is being transferred here? training samples? and the weights are already stored in GPU memory?
j4at: yes
putibuzu: ok thanks :) I was always wondering how people make use of GPU for training
putibuzu: to clarify do you use the GPU for forward pass as well?
j4at: i use gpu foreverything yes :)
jacek: to make coffee as well?
j4at: yeah i use the extra heat :p
putibuzu: ok then you basically only have to transfer the weights at the beginning of training and when writing to disk right? and the weights are modified during training in the GPU memory
MSmits: and can it do lighting like DomiKo's ?
j4at: putibuzu The weights gets initialized directly in the GPU
putibuzu: j4at alright thanks!
j4at: They are critic nns so they don't need to fit in cg because i'm using the actors. But even when i made them small enough to fit in cg. gpu takes .01s and cpu .06s
MSmits: will it use the same amount of energy in total, to train the NN?
j4at: less energy
MSmits: hmm
j4at: because gpu is more energy efficient
jacek: if you managed to work with your gpu, fine. i didnt
j4at: and when I train it on small nns like this it uses like 10% of its power
j4at: With pytorch/keras its pretty easy
jacek: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/450/824/6a8.jpg
MSmits: is that shaggy?
j4at: I didn't use mixed-precision either with mixed-precision you can get 2x the speed
jacek: MSmits yes
MSmits: 495 submits in uttt
jacek: ban :hammer:
MSmits: (over 4 yrs)
DomiKo: j4cat
DomiKo: https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1y7a0_ovqgtNDikXKr4rapEqJFlQ1Ksde?usp=sharing
DomiKo: simple example where cpu = gpu
j4at: colab gpus are trash
j4at: they are randomly choosen
DomiKo: cpu are too
j4at: you can get a good gpu or a very slow one
j4at: do the same test in kaggle
j4at: and send me the results :p
DomiKo: even in simple test when I move whole data set to cuda and then train, it takes 1s less (from 8s)
DomiKo: so yeah that proves my point that transferring that is very costly
DomiKo: and I never used kaggle, so I can't do it
j4at: That model is less than 40k weights half my nns size. I will test it on my computer and send results
DomiKo: it was just a simple test
j4at: well, I timed only the training not moving the model too. And the results are 4.96s in gpu and 5.87s in cpu. 512 inputs is more than my 112 input and my model is 2 times bigger.
j4at: also you are using 1 core to load the data
j4at: I will try using all cores
j4at: 3.9s in gpu and 4.45s in cpu
DomiKo: still pretty close and have have new GPU
DomiKo: " 512 inputs is more than my 112 input and my model is 2 times bigger." as I sad it's just a simple example
DomiKo: I just typed some random numbers
DomiKo: but especially with one hot inputs, you can have huge input layer compared to the model size
j4at: Did some optimizations and now its 3.78s, yeah maybe you are kinda correct DomiKo gpu is only 2 times faster than cpu in this case even after I increasesd the size to 80k weights
j4at: without changing input size
DomiKo: and with CPU you can train in parallel
j4at: IN gpu too
j4at: atleast using pytorch
j4at: but for actor critic gpu is a lot faster. Because you have 2 nns + you can make the critic as big as you want
jacek: youre so critical
j4at: + if you use attention or cnns other other fancy operations cpu takes a lot a lot longer
DomiKo: yes it would
j4at: "have new GPU" Domiko I have gtx 1080 so I don't have tensor core :'( I rent gpu's online :'(
DomiKo: :cry:
MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/msmits This version is a NN-buster. only robo unscathed
MSmits: it's funny that when you have enough different versions, you can just decide who is nr 1-2-3
jacek: one man shall not have that much power
MSmits: :grin:
MSmits: could have kicked recurse out of top 10 with that too
DomiKo: LOL
MSmits: 17 W / 6 L
MSmits: 1 D
MSmits: if I had more random in my bot this would not have been an option. The fixed eval and no random rollouts really makes this happen
MSmits: i should keep a library of such bots for each arena and then when someone annoys me, I'll submit my destroyer bot for that specific person :P
MSmits: it's evil
j4at: jokes on you my bots are not good enough to reach the top.
putibuzu: :D
MSmits: lol
DomiKo: MSmits so you will be like an ultimate mod?
Aldoggen: the Great Mod
Aldoggen: aka God
MSmits: sure why not :)
MSmits: it's weird, because my bot is not strong enough to get nr 1. 4 at most, if i am lucky.
j4at: Can i join your cult ?
MSmits: sure
j4at: :)
DomiKo: MSmits 4th is still impresive
DomiKo: and it really shows how strong karliso is
MSmits: Yeah
MSmits: personally I think he is the best bot on the board. I can make versions that beat any NN, but i cant do the same for karliso. His bot is more random
jacek: should i put more random
jacek: :imp:
MSmits: you could, but it might make your bot weaker
jacek: as long as its anti-MSmits
MSmits: mmh it wont help that much, when i wreck robo or recurse, it is by a lot. Yours already does reasonably well
MSmits: because you already have the random
MSmits: my bot is also just around your bots rating, similar strength. without any RPS
MSmits: I think yours is a little bit stronger
MSmits: oh and wait till you start experimenting with anti-msmits stuff. I should be done fitting params after today. I'll be generating a book after that, but that takes weeks
struct: NNs are over rated I knew it
jacek: referee should tell you opponent's name. that would make things easier
MSmits: so true
MSmits: it would be funny if your bot could read opponent msg output
MSmits: identify opponent that way
MSmits: well, there sometimes is a way, if you want to go that far. In many games, the top bots have a specific but different first few moves. You could detect them that way
MSmits: I never did that personally
MSmits: doesnt work on onitama and such of course
j4at: download top 20 players games and train a NN to identify the player
MSmits: lol
MSmits: thats some meta machine learning
jacek: https://maiachess.com/
StevenV: hello guys
MSmits: jacek now make a chess engine that plays like a monkey
struct: Maybe they can play chess
MSmits: they can play some games
MSmits: I don't think banana-motivation is enough to get it to learn the rules of the game
StevenV: I am gonna learn kotlin, is it good for COC?
eulerscheZahl: no. but that's a strange priority to learn or not to learn a langauge anyways
struct: I dont think so
struct: MSmits have you ever seen them doing chimp test?
jacek: kotlin compiler is slow here and might even timeout
jacek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem#Actual_monkeys
j4at: StevenV try vb.net jacek recommended it to me.
StevenV: I am an experienced Java dev, that's why I want to learn Kotlin...
MSmits: i saw some stuff, not sure if i saw that struct
j4at: hehe :)
jacek: try fortran or cobol. much future
StevenV: :(
jacek: kotlin is fine. its just weird for clashes
DomiKo: for clashes everything should be fine, except shortest...
StevenV: thanks guys, I guess I just use kotlin to solve puzzles then
j4at: yeah only shortest... fastest and reversed :)
Thorcode: using clash to learn new language
Thorcode: clash is good to learn new language
MSmits: made it to 3 :)
MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/msmits
MSmits: all NN's matched or busted :)
Thorcode: cool
MSmits: damn that karliso though =)
Thorcode: just made it to bronze
Thorcode: that tic tac toe game is hard
Thorcode: due to changing board
MSmits: yes, its a huge change
MSmits: i would have preferred some leagues where the normal TTT boss just becomes better
Thorcode: through wood ez
Thorcode: but bronze like a lot of pain
MSmits: the simulation is still quite simple though
MSmits: it's just hard to know what is a good move
Thorcode: sometime
MSmits: i have been toying with the idea of making a new UTTT contribution with better TTT leagues and final league has steal as an option
Thorcode: I could get to bronze by brute force
MSmits: then you dont need mirror matches either
Thorcode: oh that's seem fun
MSmits: I never made a game before though, on CG
MSmits: and have to find the time
miszu: Hey all, are there any competition where it's all based on heuristics and none on wiriting bulletproof simulation and engine?
MSmits: you mean bot arena's?
MSmits: yes plenty
miszu: yeah
MSmits: code a la mode is closest to an all-heuristics competition
miszu: I find it teadious writing an engine.
miszu: I just want to read the inputs and do the best heuristic
MSmits: as for tedious, my code a la mode bot had 3k lines :P
miszu: bruuh
Thorcode: how
MSmits: i did have search but, so many ifs
MSmits: over 300+
MSmits: you did ask for heuristic arena's
miszu: I know
MSmits: means many ifs
MSmits: = much code
miszu: as long as I don't need to sims
MSmits: the winner didnt have sim
MSmits: of the contest that is
MSmits: python winner
MSmits: I ended 8th with beamsearch
miszu: so I can get to play with just heuristic?
MSmits: i was an exception, most did not use search
miszu: plat*
miszu: I mean legendary lol
MSmits: easily
MSmits: well
MSmits: write good heuristics :0
miszu:
I will :0
MSmits: and pick up my damn plate
MSmits: :rage:
Thorcode: brute force
miszu: Don't tell me what to do
miszu: I am an unionized coder
miszu: we have rights
MSmits: miszu in the contest i would put down finished plates, that had to be carried to the dropoff and when the other bot was closer, i would attempt to pass it to them
MSmits: but i got ignored a lot
MSmits: (it's a cooperative arena)
miszu: Interesting
miszu: I will have a try then
MSmits: it's really fun imho
Thorcode: gotta learn something new
Thorcode: bye
MSmits: bye Thorcode
miszu: I was doing coding royale but when I saw to go to legendary you need to write a buggy sim and engine...
miszu: I was like life is too short for that
MSmits: heh i can get that
MSmits: sims for simple boardgames are not a lot of work though
miszu: yeah that's fine
miszu: but like the pod racing?
MSmits: yeah thats work
MSmits: and there are worse ones
miszu: the fun part is the heuristics
MSmits: sometimes it's fun
MSmits: sometimes i just dont know what to use
MSmits: last contest i didnt know
MSmits: i just bruteforced my own turn and got to legend that way
miszu: I wish we could do a manual mode where you just play the game yourself
MSmits: yeah that would be fun
MSmits: jacek, good news, you rank above recurse and are still 4th
HenroLST: morning
MSmits: I'm done fitting params, so if you want, mess around to create anti-smits, but you'll push recurse back up, that's the price
MSmits: morning HenroLST
HenroLST: geez how are you guys always awake and coding
HenroLST: are you like lucid dreaming just to code in your sleep too???
MSmits: only during contests
MSmits: this is me relax-coding
HenroLST: dang
HenroLST: ok i need to up my game then :sweat_smile:
MSmits: just enjoy and you'll code more
HenroLST: yup
HenroLST: wait just out of curiosity can you make a NN in c++?
MSmits: you can make a NN in anything
HenroLST: ooo something to look forward to in the future then
MSmits: generally it is easier to use one of those python frameworks you can find
MSmits: you can also export the weights you get with those and then use them in a c++ bot
MSmits: thats what many do on CG
HenroLST: ah
HenroLST: or just grab from stack overflow :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
MSmits: but in the end a NN is just a program, so it's not language specific
Illedan: During offline training. Is it better to test against a constant population or create a new population to do round robin against each round?
MSmits: for testing probably better to have constant set of bots
MSmits: otherwise how will you know you improved
Illedan: Yeah, I'm getting stuck on that thought now :thinking:
Illedan: So I need to figure out how to make a good variety of bots :D
jacek: that was my problem in green circle
jacek: later i used bots trained with different hyperparams for testing
jacek: at the beginning i was testing against random and the 1st action bot only
jacek: maybe if i knew the game i'd make some simple heuristic bot as well
Illedan: Now I'm creating a new population of 4 new mutated bots + the best from the prev round. Then doing 20 games between all pairs (80 games for each)
D4WEED: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Illedan: This is for FB
jacek: NN? :scream:
Illedan: Nah, GA hyper param training
Illedan: Could put them through some NN though
jacek: im doing pure round robin, coevolution for clash of bots. i just ran out of testing bots, its 100% wins against all of them now
jacek: https://i.imgur.com/VBecERg.png
HenroLST: bot
Illedan: I'll change to a population of 2 and just save all the new best mutations. To get a validation population
jacek: sounds incest
Illedan: My newly trained IAs have dropped re Curse 2 points since yesterday. So soon I can have hopes of being first :eyes:
jacek: so incest is wincest?
Illedan: Only the good kind of incest
HenroLST: ...
MSmits: jeez, I am away from the computer for 1 second...
Illedan: Hm, I'm talking about my GA genomes
MSmits: o
jacek: and youre inbreeding them
HenroLST: imagine reCurse comes back just to win that particular event
struct: he is retired
Illedan: Did he say?
Illedan: Or just asumptions?
struct: it says on his CG profile
struct: retired from CG
Astrobytes: and he did say he was done
Illedan: I guess his last contest win was enough to prove everything
struct: I guess I'll never retire
jacek: he said not-first in contest or retire
karliso: MSmits wow, look at you, what have you done to uttt leaderboard?
Astrobytes: probably concentrating on chess, and little recurs e too of course
struct: karliso his bot is now eval instead of rollout
karliso: yeah, I wonder how hard it is to come up with good eval.. or just that noone gave it serious try.
Illedan: 1 random move and then eval all the way?
struct: eval on expansion Illedan
Illedan: Which is?
struct: MCTS select expand
on expansion when you create a node you eval it
struct: instead of doing a rollout
Illedan: And then do rollouts afterwards?
struct: yeah no rollout
struct: just eval straight away
MSmits: karliso yeah i messed it up :)
struct: Am I right MSmits?
Illedan: I don't quite understand
MSmits: yes struct
MSmits: just dont do the random rollout in mcts
MSmits: replace it with eval score
MSmits: and backpropagate that also
Illedan: Ok, so you the rollout to some depth?
Illedan: And then eval instead?
Illedan: *you do the
MSmits: my depth for this is 0
MSmits: i expand, then eval immediately
Illedan: So it is instant?
MSmits: yes
MSmits: selection -> expansion -> eval
Illedan: Done in 1 ms?
MSmits: eh no i do this 100k times per turn :P
struct: he does normal mcts just no rollout
Illedan: hmm
MSmits: to be clear, 142k on 2nd turn
jacek: jacekmax or mcts?
MSmits: eval is pretty expensive
MSmits: not jackemax no
MSmits: I dont know how that would do
Illedan: Got any documentation that I can read?
MSmits: nope, but it really isnt complicated. Imagine a normal mcts
DomiKo: MSmits with eval you have more itererations?
MSmits: at some point you have a line that says score = Simulation ()
MSmits: replace that with
MSmits: score = Evaluation(0
jacek: mcts early playout termination, though they play for N random moves, then eval instead of checking win/loss
MSmits: DomiKo a little more yes
jacek: more in the beginning but probably less in ending
MSmits: but the eval contains a lot of ifs and lookups so its not a lot
karliso: So you normalize eval to -1 1 or equivalent?
MSmits: i dont normalize
MSmits: what i did was, i keep the exploration param at 1.0
MSmits: and fit the other parameters to something that works
jacek: would switching to rollouts from late midgame be better?
MSmits: it could totally be the case that there are regions in the game where rollout is better or eval is better
MSmits: karliso the working params are such that the scores more or less fall into the same range. Sometimes they go at most to -2 or +3 or something
MSmits: btw, it was not hard to make an eval that gets into top 100 for uttt. a simple eval that makes sense will get you there. A good eval is harder
karliso: How long did it take for you?
MSmits: i had this bot from a year ago, i worked on it then a week or so, but i gave up to soon. I picked it up now and improved it in a few days
MSmits: the other bot was ranked around 15th
MSmits: (the earlier eval bot i mean, mcts was ranked 8)
MSmits: 8 lol... damn emotes
MSmits: but just the fact that a neural network can be trained to eval uttt should tell you it's possible.
karliso: But beating NN is a different thing.
MSmits: i am not sure it is an entirely fair comparison. I suspect if you look at the games, they are often the same game
MSmits: if i change 1 param by 0.1, suddenly recurse wrecks me, or robo does
MSmits: if both bots do not use random, it can get kind of boring
MSmits: but the bot does well vs other bots too, so i wont complain
jacek: :rage:
jacek: im so happy for you
MSmits: I can tell :P
MSmits: dont worry, i am sure i'll get pulled back down when the other top 10 bots resubmit.
MSmits: the nn's tend to do better vs random bots
MSmits: vingte, tomatoes or yurko can ruin my day
MSmits: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-tic-tac-toe/msmits
MSmits: i will not get much better than 50% and the NN's will much more
_NikJ: Now, what I'M wondering is, what kind of magic did reCurse cast in order to get such an insanely high score in mad pod racing?His win ratio is like 96% lol
jacek: we may never know
MSmits: _NikJ mad pod racing is kind of strange in that sense though. If 1 bot is better than another, even if only a little, they quickly get 100% wr
MSmits: only a small margin in bot strength is necessary to get very high WR
MSmits: the same margin in uttt would get you maybe 55%
putibuzu: MSmits what techniques do you use for parameter fitting?
MSmits: crap techniques
MSmits: i tried first locally playing vs my normal mcts bot
MSmits: i figured it wouldn't overfit but it eventually did. It would even wreck my mcts both with 500 ms calc time
MSmits: so then i just tried stuff on the leaderboard
MSmits: (submit)
MSmits: thankfully I only have a few params now
MSmits: I think 3 main ones, the other ones are pretty basic and can be independently fitted (similar to exploration param)
MSmits: for example, I have a mobility param, that subtracts from the score. childCount * param
MSmits: that doesnt really depend on anything else I think, so i just fitted it once
MSmits: (it's bad to give your opponent more choices)
putibuzu: ah ok thanks :)
MSmits: if i had to do it better, i would probably do a GA. I should make a frame work for it
MSmits: it would be nice to have one for next contest
MSmits: where you just plug in your bot with the ability to pass param value and then the framework starts them fighting
putibuzu: hat sounds interesting :thinking:
I was wondering whether you can use self-play with stochastic gradient descent like alpha zero
putibuzu: *that
MSmits: yeah i think there are some ways like that, but GA is fairly simple and works well. I just haven't done it yet
putibuzu: Alright thanks :) I'm looking forward to you taking #1 :)
MSmits: not by fiddling more params, but i am generating an opening book. That should help
MSmits: I am not counterbooking though
jacek: books :unamused:
MSmits: I am not feeling guilty for using them when others spend days locally training their NN and filling their codesize with weights :)
MSmits: counterbook is cheesy though
TimeEngineer: :joy:
Illedan: I wonder if I can get into UTTT legend by only using books?
MSmits: books are really weak in uttt, there are better games to use them
MSmits: problem is that there are many ways to play well, so there's many plays to counter
MSmits: game winning/losing mistakes happen somewhere between ply 18 and 30 for good bots
MSmits: and books dont usually go that deep
MSmits: I am just hoping for a few % WR from them
Illedan: How many moves can you fit in a book?
MSmits: depends on the game
Illedan: UTTT ofc
Illedan: I know it depends :P
jacek: not many transpositions there
MSmits: i am thinking
jacek: :scream:
MSmits: probably around 200k
MSmits: but you'd need to minify your code to a negligible amount or it'll be less
MSmits: i have never hit the limit though
Illedan: Maybe I'll try for UTTT
Illedan: See if pure lookup can go to Legend :D
Illedan: Can't do anything while FB is training locally
MSmits: well, you wont be able to do pure lookup. Still need some heuristics to finish off
Illedan: Nah ^^
MSmits: you wont be able to finish a single game just with lookups :P
TimeEngineer: What's difference between Qtable and books ?
MSmits: it's the same thing i guess
TimeEngineer: I see
MSmits: Qtable stores states with actions right?
TimeEngineer: Yes
MSmits: yeah same thing
MSmits: I dont store the states though
MSmits: just the moves, in a tree starting from the root
MSmits: moves are much smaller than the whole game state
jacek: how do you deal with transpositions
TimeEngineer: That's the question
MSmits: I deal with it locally.
MSmits: I don't generate moves in the tree that are duplicate
TimeEngineer: Many actions can lead to the same state
MSmits: if it hits a gamestate i find in another branch, then it ends there, as a leaf
MSmits: locally when generating book, i take into account rotations, but also other kinds of transpositions
MSmits: when in my bot, i need to lookup a move, I try all rotations of the current state, to see if it matches with a state from the book
TimeEngineer: Do you use NN for UTTT jacek ? if so you used a CNN ? I'm wondering because of rotation invariance
jacek: i use NN, but good old one-hots
jacek: i just add rotations to training positions
MSmits: did you do the inside-out transposition for nmm?
jacek: the what
MSmits: switch the inner ring with the outer ring
MSmits: it has 16 ways to transform the board
TimeEngineer: What XD ?
MSmits: nine mens morris
jacek: no, just rotations and symmetries
TimeEngineer: Ah it's another game :p
MSmits: ahh thats sad jacek, could have doubled your training states =)
jacek: i have no motivation, im still 1st :(
MSmits: true
MSmits: TimeEngineer uttt has 8 symmetries, yavalath has 12 and nmm has 16, it is kind of special that way
MSmits: besides it being bitboardable with only 24 bits per player
TimeEngineer: I have never played others game
MSmits: which game have you played?
TimeEngineer: UTTT only
MSmits: ohh ok
jacek: not even green circle?
TimeEngineer: And I learned the rules yesterday
MSmits: tons of interesting board games here
TimeEngineer: Among what he says
TimeEngineer: Yes I played GC ofc
TimeEngineer: I used UTTT to learn NN from scratch but I don't really like them :p
MSmits: uttt is not a good starting place for nn afaik
TimeEngineer: What's the best place then ?
jacek: oware
MSmits: oware probably
MSmits: gotta go for a bit, garden work
jacek: its just quite recently NN took over UTTT
TimeEngineer: See you
MSmits: ttyl
jacek: even recurse had problems with them most of the time
TimeEngineer: Why is he so popular ?
MSmits: thats not the right word to use
TimeEngineer: Why even him ?
MSmits: he's just very very good
Illedan: 1 more very needed
MSmits: allright going to pull some weeds now
Illedan: gl
Astrobytes: "weeds" eh
jacek: in holand :thinking:
Astrobytes: :D
Passifi: wooo wooo wooo I did it I finally solved Labyrinth woooo the dopamin rush, the joy .... and its gone :upside_down: next puzzle ;)
jacek: space maze?
eulerscheZahl: bender 4
jacek: galaxy labyrinth?
Passifi: https://www.codingame.com/training/hard/the-labyrinth
eulerscheZahl: we know the puzzle
Passifi: okay I thought there was ambiguity ;)
eulerscheZahl: suggestions for your next one
Passifi: always appreciated yes
eulerscheZahl: there are more mazes to solve
Passifi: oh I see I know see the space maze puzzle in the very hard section I was confused here for a minute and bender 4 is another maze one ?
eulerscheZahl: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/optimization/bender---episode-4
eulerscheZahl: there's also sokoban for mazes
Passifi: ah cool thanks
jacek: :tada: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/650637883
PatrickMcGinnisII:
Promotion to Wood 1 League in :
00H 00MN 24SC
jacek: mad pod racing?
PatrickMcGinnisII: CTTT
jacek: ezpz
DomiKo: gz gz
jacek: bz2 even
BlaiseEbuth: Hey hey! use my starter go legend. ezpz
geppoz: Passifi try this https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/the-fall-episode-3
geppoz: well, passing by https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/the-fall-episode-1 and https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/the-fall-episode-2
PatrickMcGinnisII: 63rd, ok
Illedan: Nice jacek. Do you NN consider all inputs together? Or only 1 robot?
jacek: only 1 robot. + number of robots and rounds
Illedan: Nice
jacek: i thought for top5 i would need all of them, but its not needed apparently
j4at: Jacek are you going to try all robots ?
jacek: nah, at least not now
Illedan: Try 2 and 2?
jacek: hm?
Illedan: Give output for all robots seen by 1 robot
Illedan: Then do this for all robots
Illedan: and use the sum of actions as a vote for each of them
Illedan: Then do the best
jacek: oO
Illedan: :P
Illedan: Only 4 moves + defend + 4 attack right?
Illedan: + selfdestruct
jacek: 10 moves
Illedan: 250 outputs then
jacek: quite lately it realized selfdestruct can be useful sometimes
DomiKo: selfplay?
jacek: you could say that, yes
j4at: I'm going to do all robots + rnn :neutral_face:
jacek: thats the spirit
a-Rye: Whoo! I am the tallest midget! Err, dwarf, vertically challenged, whatever the PC version is. I'm top for "Popular" on the Playgrounds lol. Not top coder, not even top explainer, just top popularity of tutorial, most likely accounting for uptime, but I'll take it!
jacek: oO
k4ng0u: a-Rye (not tying to pick up a fight) but whatre are you leading again? I tried to look at a few ranking but never saw you. what is popular tutorial?
jacek: i think he means playgrounds and Popular tab
a-Rye: k4ng0u that's why I joked about being "the tallest midget." I'm ranked fairly average / beginner in most stuff. But my tutorial playground, Beginner Python Concepts, is the most popular. For now, which is why it isn't anything too fancy
a-Rye: https://www.codingame.com/learn?tab=popular
a-Rye: First and Fourth actually, but I'm still working on the Java one. I'm also doing an Intermediate soon, but getting some colleagues to possibly collab on it
jacek: next is Beginner Cobol Concepts
a-Rye: I wouldn't mind learning that. I have a book on Perl I've been meaning to go through as well...
jacek: for you own sanity, dont ;o
a-Rye: Especially just beginner. Anything more, and I'm just posing lol
a-Rye: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
a-Rye: A lot of that eh? ^^
HenroLST: magic!
Westicles: my Stirling numbers clash has a mixed response
HenroLST: link?
Westicles: https://www.codingame.com/contribute/view/24369cb4a526bd6b707ef8743841a63bd6e67
Westicles: funny that a russian born woman and a soviet born man won wimbledon
HenroLST: hehe i was hoping krygios would win just to see the upheaval
HenroLST: also interesting to see if his attitude would change
TomAlard: what happened to recurse's uttt bot
TomAlard: 1->6 lol
DomiKo: MSmits happend
HenroLST: sheesh
jacek: everything changed when the fire nation attacke
jacek: d
Evran: hello world
smhb: 👋
Westicles: something changed
jacek: the multiverse is shattering again
HenroLST: oh no
miszu: question for the code a la mode, what datastructure you used for the string of the dish description?
miszu: Do you guys tokenize it?
MACKEYTH: I would. Minimize string processing that way.
Astrobytes: yeah, tokenized then stored bitwise in an int
MACKEYTH: The discord is still pretty quiet despite the "chat going away" warning.
Sweshies: are the servers offline?
hacker535646: hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii coders
BabaYagaCELL: Hello man !
TimeEngineer: Even with a DQN with 90% WR against random, I can't reach silver (UTTT) lmao
dianissimo_z: Hi all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sheeeeeeh: hi sisters !!!!
Fierceblood: Are all clashes fastest mode?
Fierceblood: Or am I on a very unlikely streak?
TimeEngineer: There are 3 mode, fastest, shortest and reverse
Fierceblood: Yeah I know, but I always get fastest for some reason
Fierceblood: :P
Fierceblood: Again! XD
hel-makh: same
User_xin: Today is another day full of hope
angryPenguin: I got like 6 shortest in a row this afternoon
TheDoomedClown_155f: Hiiiii
**MACKEYTH hates shortest the mostest
User_xin: 2022年7月11日10:01:55
emergenitro: hello
emergenitro: whats up
MACKEYTH: Playing Code a la Mode
MACKEYTH: Just discovered the source of a whole bunch of forfeits.
MACKEYTH: If your partner times out or otherwise inactivates, their position gets reported as -1,-1.
MACKEYTH: I was getting inactivated due to array out of bounds errors when I tried to plot them on the map.
Oporekungthai: yo yo yo uits humopdayt
Oporekungthai: what i need you to do
Oporekungthai: is tag three big d nig
putibuzu: gz
