derjack: sokoban puzzle of the week eh
Westicles: a fine choice
BlaiseEbuth: Yeah congratulation to the bot !
ableflyer: guys what must your rank be to become a clash of code pro
KP56: top 100?
KP56: i think
nuggetbucket54: i think that is depending on how many games you play not ur ranking but i might be mistaken
nuggetbucket54: i have clash of code legend but that is only because i played a bit (500 games) not because i'm actually any good
KP56: trueskill depends on how good opponents who you beat are
KP56: so yes it is your skill
KP56: also i didnt know you can get a rank in coc
Uljahn: the rank is not permanent and decays over time
KP56: in Chuk Norris (https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/chuck-norris-codesize) does space also count as a character?
KP56: because my program fails tests containing space for some reason
BlaiseEbuth: "ASCII characters"
KP56: hm special characters are also messed up
Siddhesh18: space is an ASCII character with value 32
KP56: yes but my solution does not match tests but only if someone inputs non-literals
KP56: which is weird considering i use this: bin(ord(i))[2:]
TYJung: how do you do the 2nd lvl for uh hh the checkpoint thingy
TYJung: im using bash
TYJung: im using bash
KP56: what checkpoint thingy
KP56: coders strike back?
TYJung: ah ye
TYJung: soz im new to coding
KP56: learn some other language, bash is very limited
TYJung: oh then which do u prefer to use
KP56: and if you were to try any othe more complex challenge it would be impossible to solve with bash
TYJung: c++?
KP56: you can use c++, python is an option, java, c#, ruby, javascript
KP56: every single one of these is good
TYJung: uh ok ill use c++ but how do u do the angle thingy with g++
TYJung: c++
KP56: if (angle < 90) thrust = 0;
KP56: thats what you mean?
KP56: if (angle > 90 || angle < -90) thrust = 0;
TYJung: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/7709940a-4e28-4f5d-80a3-51b718d81695
TYJung: huh
KP56: int thrust = 100;
TYJung: ye but it says that
KP56: if (nextCheckpointAngle > 90 || nextCheckpointAngle < -90) thrust = 0;
KP56: and then
KP56: cout << nextCheckpointX << " " << nextCheckpointY << " " << thrust << endl;
TYJung: ah
TYJung: ok
KiwiTae: y
TYJung: thanks
BlaiseEbuth: Come back when you'll have passed to the next league, KP56 will give you his code...
KP56: you basically create a new space in memory called "thrust", then you set it to the value 100, if the angle between next checkpoint is higher than 90, then we want to set thrust to 0
KP56: has anyone here solved the chuck norris puzzle in python?
Uljahn: sure
KiwiTae: ya
KiwiTae: im stuck at 89 ~
Westicles: compressed?
Uljahn: same
KiwiTae: ya :/
Westicles: yeah me too. I'm curious about that c/obj c solution under 60
Westicles: too many people, either it is obvious or it is published somewhere
KP56: stuck at what
KP56: oh chuck norris
KP56: i was asking because i have this code and it doesn't work with special symbols
KP56: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/120b2c11-4005-414e-a942-f906188e58b5
KP56: it only passes tests 1, 2 and 5
Uljahn: "The input message consists of ASCII characters (7-bit)", the most common problem is for "%" char the binary has only 6-bit length because of a leading zero
KP56: oh thank you
KP56: FINALLY IT WORKS
KP56: im so grateful
KP56: i wouldnt have figured it out without your help
Uljahn: sorry for ruining the fun of debugging challenge
KP56: since when is debugging fun
Uljahn: always has been
samiriscool: ayyyyyyyy how u doing coding gang
Orwell983: How could I test assesmeny for a C++ and OOP profile?
JEDWF: which site is the best to learn coding
KP56: if you already know syntax
KP56: you can check codewarriors out, it has some very simple puzzles to teach you basics, then you can come back here
JEDWF: thank you !
TeKI_Dubz: @samiriscool coding gang is not good
samiriscool: nah coding gang never dies, am i right boys?
KP56: is implementing mini max after an x amount of moves to decrease possibilities in Ultimate tic tac toe a good idea?
derjack: hm?
KP56: instead of using it since the beggining to see for example 10 moves deep and try to evaluate who has an advantage
KP56: create a simple AI and just start using minimax after an X amount of moves
KP56: im asking which option is better
MSmits: KP56 i have no idea what you are saying
Uljahn: first x moves are most important, do you book them or use MCTS?
MSmits: are you asking KP56?
Uljahn: ye
KP56: what i mean is im trying to make an AI and implement minimax in it, since minimax is score based, i could just make it look through every single possibility for example 10-20 moves ahead and try to evaluate who has an advantage instead of who has won
TeKI_Dubz: @samiriscool rip coding gang
MSmits: what you are describing is just minimax KP56
MSmits: yes minimax is an option
KP56: oh nvm then
MSmits: you wont get 20 moves ahead though
KiwiTae: KP56 check aCat minimax puzzle
MSmits: it's more like 10 max
KP56: ok thanks
MSmits: mcts seems more effective on uttt, but minimax does work
MSmits: you can get to legend with it
KiwiTae: MSmits no trains today? :D
MSmits: no trains today, tomorrow though
MSmits: and friday
MSmits: I need to finish grading some stuff
MSmits: reports from experiments done by students. They take half an hour each and i need to grade 18 of them still :(
KiwiTae: no gaussian drop on top of the stairs?
KiwiTae: :p
MSmits: gaussian drop?
MSmits: is this some experiment to determine gravitational acceleration or something?
MSmits: if so, that would have been an ok option for a similar assignment
KiwiTae: drop the reports from a stair cases ,white noise grading
MSmits: ohhh
MSmits: nope :)
MSmits: some of them are bad, some are good, I need to actually read them
KiwiTae: :) tough life
MSmits: heh it's ok. Grading my html/css assignment was easier though
KiwiTae: I would make a terrible teacher ><
MSmits: form is quicker to grade than content
MSmits: dont know until you try KiwiTae
MSmits: maybe you would make an excellent teacher because you are already setting the bar too high for yourself
MSmits: my first year as a teacher I was always thinking I messed up
MSmits: but noone else seemed to think so
MSmits: it's a hard job to start out in because you immediately get the same responsibility as every teacher that has been doing it for 30 years
MSmits: some jobs ease you into it, but this is not one of those
MSmits: so.. here's your classroom, with 30 young adults here, have fun, dodge the paper planes.
MSmits: (I;m exaggerating but not by much)
MSmits: with experience it becomes deceptively easy though
MSmits: you can get lazy and stop improving, that's a pitfall
KiwiTae: :grimacing: sorry i was getting my shot ~ it gets easier so you get more time for research
Wontonimo: good morning (or afternoon, or whereever you are on this pale blue dot)
Wontonimo: I haven't taught children in a classroom, but I have done corporate tech training.
Wontonimo: I agree MSmits, doing the same course a few times sure makes it easier
MSmits: well it's almost never exactly the same course, but the gain in time is mostly from the fact that you don't have to specify every action you take during class, when preparing. You can mostly "wing it"
MSmits: but therein also lies the lazy part. Wing it too much and you're not a very good teacher
Wontonimo: :thumpsup:
Wontonimo: lol ... :thumbsup:
MSmits: :)
MSmits: for example,, I could get away with just using the powerpoint from last year in most cases
Wontonimo: yeah, and then part of you would die
MSmits: but if i want to be good, i will check it for mistakes or i'll be making the same mistake every year
MSmits: and sometimes there are new developments
MSmits: or the content of the course subtly changed
MSmits: content is decided on a national level and that changes every so many years
Wontonimo: or you discover a recurring cognitive hurdle in the student population, and make a special focus point to help with that
MSmits: we get new teaching materials too, about once every 6-7 years (new books)
MSmits: Wontonimo yeah exactly
MSmits: this is physics btw, for CS we dont have any books. We write all our own stuff
MSmits: or cobble it together from various sources
MSmits: in that sense CS classes take more time to prepare, but grading is generally easier
Wontonimo: I was tutoring some very young children with serious math issues a long time ago. It seemed from the mistakes they were making they could do simple math with 1-10, and from 20-100 but not from 11-19
Wontonimo: so I got them to say "ten-ty one, ten-ty two" and all their problems went away after 5 min
MSmits: ah yeah
Wontonimo: i was pretty proud of that one. It was the whole english teens that was tripping them up for years
MSmits: it's confusing
MSmits: same in my language
MSmits: tien, elf, twaalf, der*tien*, veer*tien* etc.
Wontonimo: there are probably many many programming and science ones that you've seen. so many that you probably don't even realize that you are helping and rephrasing for the benefit of the students
MSmits: yeah that sort of thing becomes automatic
MSmits: I realize this when I am assisting an intern who never taught before
MSmits: then you realize how much of this stuff you do right without even knowing
PaulSurzh: I can't do "verbal" math at all. I always have to imagine what the number looks like, do the math and only then tell the answer.
MSmits: anyway, good convo, but gotta do some shopping before it gets late :(
MSmits: ttyl
Wontonimo: me too PaulSurzh, so the whole "teens" number thing never effected me as a child.
Wontonimo: I don't know how a person could do "verbal" math for algebra or calculus
PaulSurzh: Well, I guess actual math isn't supposed to be done "verbally" at all. I was mostly talking about arithmetic.
PaulSurzh: Also, my native language isn't English, but we also have the "teens" thing. I think it's pretty common among languages.
Wontonimo: PaulSurzh have you tried any of the bot programming ? https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming
PaulSurzh: Not yet, I'm most solving puzzles now.
MSmits: once easy puzzles become trivial i think you can succesfully do many multis
Astrobytes: ^
Astrobytes: If you want to, obviously
MSmits: yeah, I never really went back to puzzles, except when i wanted to learn python
MSmits: I still enjoy them, I just enjoy multis more
Astrobytes: Yeah puzzles are great for trying out other languages
MSmits: nine men's morris is still in contribution. I keep waiting for it to appear on the list
Astrobytes: Do you have a bot for it?
MSmits: no, i havent had time for it, but if it becomes a multi i will for sure write one
MSmits: It seems like a great game to practice supervised learning on
MSmits: because you can solve it locally
MSmits: and then train a NN to eval states
Astrobytes: everyone's going in on the machine learning huh
MSmits: to me it's just a tool i dont know yet
aminzeos: hey guys
MSmits: like mcts, endgame book creation, meta mcts etc.
Astrobytes: I saw Marchet e tech.io article, what a great job he did
MSmits: definitely
PaulSurzh: Sorry, I'm new here, what is multi?
MSmits: games played by bots
MSmits: with a leaderboard
PaulSurzh: Ah, okay, thanks.
Astrobytes: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming
Astrobytes: There are quite a few to choose from ;)
MSmits: the reason NMM seems great to me is my first succesful ML project was supervised learning TTT, also a solved game
MSmits: I could expand this to a more complex solved game.
MSmits: its a smaller step than oware
Astrobytes: Yes, would be a good starting point, I agree
PaulSurzh: Yeah, Wontonimo has already recommended tham to me, I just didn't know they were called multies.
PaulSurzh: *them
Astrobytes: Ah ok, sorry :)
MSmits: they are called multies or arenas
MSmits: or just bot games
MSmits: some of them are ex-contests
MSmits: the ex-contest ones have complex rules and are hard to simulate
MSmits: (generally)
MSmits: the rest are super simple and great to practice search algortihms with
struct: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Wontonimo: ┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ)
Astrobytes: lol
BlaiseEbuth: ngl
Astrobytes: have you misplaced your vowels again Blaise?
darkhorse64: ankle injury ?
Astrobytes: :D
BobTschigerillo: :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:
MSmits: is there a rule like, when the emotes use a 2nd line it's too many
Astrobytes: There should be.
MSmits: agreed
BobTschigerillo: :joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:
Astrobytes: Would you like a kick BobTschigerillo?
BlaiseEbuth: He want
Astrobytes: That counted as a warn then kick I guess :P
BlaiseEbuth: Which vowels btw?
MSmits: only you know
Astrobytes: ^
MSmits: do you know a nigel ?
BlaiseEbuth: Oh. No. Was my answer to the lol of Astrobytes
MSmits: well
MSmits: that doesn't help :P
Astrobytes: "the lol of Astrobytes" sounds like a book or something
dbdr: https://planetoids21.kattis.com/standings
BlaiseEbuth: Lucifer Our Lord -> Nam Gloria Lucifer
dbdr: 2 CGers in top 10 :)
Astrobytes: That bob guy wants a ban btw, he DMd me
MSmits: hey whats that
dbdr: a contest euler mentioned on the chat
Astrobytes: Nice, good job dbdr!
dbdr: then he did not join :D
dbdr: thanks
dbdr: CG experience definitely helps
dbdr: though the referee is not public, need to reverse enginner it :D
MSmits: yeah no idea what it is, but plenty of opposition, so gj
dbdr: small compared to cg contests
dbdr: unfortunately there is still time for me to get reckt
Astrobytes: It's asteroids game basically MSmits
MSmits: ah ok
dbdr: there is some kind of trip to the ICPC championship as first prize, if I understood correctly
dbdr: https://u.icpc.global/deviation-games/
Astrobytes: nice
MSmits: a swag bag
dbdr: :D
MSmits: that makes it worth it
Astrobytes: Yes, presumably one dropped by a burglar MSmits
MSmits: once you have that, you got swag
MSmits: I see
MSmits: this should be on your profile dbdr
MSmits: i won a coding contest and now I got swag
dbdr: I haven't won yet :D
Astrobytes: All your swag are belong to me
MSmits: we'll see
MSmits: lol
dbdr: I'll put it if I do, in your honor ;)
MSmits: cool :)
BobCicerillo: im back
Astrobytes: hold on to that lead!
AllYourTrees: AllYourSwag?
Astrobytes: :D
Good-one: hello world ;)
Wontonimo: they recommend 4ms of compute per frame. That's a very small time budget
dbdr: yeah
Wontonimo: seems like it is only enough for if/else bots. Are you doing any simulation in that time?
dbdr: I am doing a sim
Astrobytes: banked?
dbdr: I think it's global limit, yes
Astrobytes: Ah cool
Wontonimo: +1 for sim
dbdr: in rust, without libs, and the input is json :D
AllYourTrees: aww yisss rust
dbdr: so manual parser
Astrobytes: lol
dbdr: and if you get it wrong "Run Time Error" with no feedback :D
MSmits: this is why it's hard to go outside CG for contests. The conditions are almost always worse
MSmits: so once you go CG...
Wontonimo: i understand the attraction of using json, but have these people actually tried parsing in every language?
dbdr: C++ and python are officially supported
dbdr: they added a json parser to cpp
BobTschicerillo: Hello
Wontonimo: "Run time error" with no feedback ;(
It would almost be easier to code with punchcards
dbdr: well, you can run locally against a compiled referee. except somehow it has different input format (spacing)
Wontonimo: you know, just to spice things up
Astrobytes: Jeez :D
dbdr: yeah, was fun. I was ready to give up several times, was not even sure to start
dbdr: happy I did now, whatever the final result
dbdr: :)
darkhorse64: no referee, no visual, 3 days to reverse the mechanics and write a bot -> no fun
Astrobytes: best of luck man, hope you keep that lead
BobTschigerilo: Im back guys
BobTschicerillo: hope u fail
BobTschicerillo: retard
Astrobytes: bye Bob
BobTschigerilo: retard
BobTschigerilo: which one
BobTschicerillo: i have infinite accounts
BobTschicerillo: bob tschigerillo is great
BobTschicerillo: forever
BobTschicerillo: Or should i say
BobTschicerillo: Bob Cicerillo
dbdr: darkhorse64, there are visuals locally, in Unity
dbdr: and a python visualizer they build in a couple of hours because ppl had issues, pretty cool
dbdr: also, reverse can be fun, as long as it's clear it's part of the challenge
darkhorse64: oh, I rage quit within the first minutes mostly because I did not have the time, so i miss that.
MSmits: did you quit like Bob :P
BlaiseEbuth: Bob didn't quit, he was quitted.
Astrobytes: The Bobs got banned
MSmits: true
darkhorse64: the multiple heads one ? I am sure mods are faster to cut his heads
MSmits: he has infinite accounts though
Astrobytes: I have infinite bans
MSmits: true
darkhorse64: infinite powa
Astrobytes: :D
BlaiseEbuth: But infinite patience ?
Astrobytes: No. Even I have a breaking point.
BlaiseEbuth: Ok. So we have to make a bot to autoban him before you reach that point.
Astrobytes: A ban bot would be great.
BAN 9000
darkhorse64: a moron killer
Wontonimo: how do the current Automate2000 and ML bots work?
Wontonimo: afa integration?
Astrobytes: Wontonimo:
https://www.codingame.com/blog/markov-chain-automaton2000/
Automaton2000: yeah but i have to start somewhere
Astrobytes: Grr.
zsltg: or create a multiplayer game where the goal is to write a more effective moderation bot :)
darkhorse64: write an a0 that learns from mods how to ban ?
Wontonimo: does world chat use IRC protocol?
BlaiseEbuth: xmpp
BlaiseEbuth: do you want vowels ?
Astrobytes: XMPP
Astrobytes: oh
Astrobytes: hahaha
Wontonimo: using additional details like the users global ranking, XP, and if they have bothered to add an image would all be great additional signals
Wontonimo: not absolute signals, but at least help to not ban me
BlaiseEbuth: First thing i'll teach to the bot is to ban you...
Astrobytes: I can imagine the ban bot seriously annoying a lot of people, initially at least :D
Wontonimo: initial version could just be text warnings in world chat
RoboStac: you want to combat spam by having a bot add more spam? :)
Astrobytes: ^
BlaiseEbuth: Fire by fire !
Outhous3: helo
dbdr: lol, I forgot to sim the damage to my ship
zsltg: invincible ship? :thinking:
dbdr: yeah, infinite shield
jacek: what game
Astrobytes: ICPC Planetoids
dbdr: https://u.icpc.global/deviation-games/
BobTschigerilllo: Hello
AllYourTrees: "You reached the limit of plays for a period of time" :scream:
Astrobytes: so annoying
Astrobytes: afk for a bit
Skinjbir: hello world
The_10x_Engineer: hello world
ANONYMOUS42: 𝚑𝙴𝚕𝙻𝚘 𝚠𝙾𝚛𝙻𝚍
eulerscheZahl: dbdr is actually playing that contest?
eulerscheZahl: wait, there's some material to download now - that's new
eulerscheZahl: and even a video - how could I miss that? :D
eulerscheZahl: i see my fault: i expected that all the information was given in the problem statement on kattis. while same of the info was on icpc.global exclusively
eulerscheZahl: i also assumed that the contest would end today instead of tomorrow
eulerscheZahl: oh, dbdr is first :o
well done little prince
BlaiseEbuth: little prince ? Oo
eulerscheZahl: of Persia
BlaiseEbuth: oh
eulerscheZahl: but seriously: why is there a long problem statement on kattis that doesn't even mention the 25 page pdf with more detailed rules on another website
eulerscheZahl: that's stupid
eulerscheZahl: and i'm 90% sure that the contest should end today and not tomorrow
BlaiseEbuth: That's a trap
eulerscheZahl: i wish dbdr good luck. but i'm happy i didn't get myself into this
eulerscheZahl: the handbook even has a chapter called "6.2. Bugs / Discrepancies with the Problem Spec"
eulerscheZahl: "How do I quit the game? "
Use your OS’s Task Manager to force-quit.
dbdr: eulerscheZahl, the end was postponed because of a major bug in the statement
eulerscheZahl: i see
eulerscheZahl: did that statement bug affect you?
dbdr: NinjaDoggy reversed the issue
dbdr: yeah, it affected me too. but was not too hard to adapt
eulerscheZahl: still some ideas for improvements?
eulerscheZahl: is the "80" below your score the number of submits?
dbdr: yes, better reverse the engine ;)
dbdr: yes
dbdr: about 20 of those were for blind debugging my manual json parser :D
eulerscheZahl: "try not to submit to Kattis more than once per hour"
dbdr: I saw that
eulerscheZahl: and you tried to try it :D
dbdr: #4 has 196
Good-one: /me
Good-one: /message dbdr
TipuTare: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/a71014b4-d17c-41d8-95af-b899048f5509
TipuTare: whats wrong with this code
Astrobytes: It doesn't work.
eulerscheZahl: you should initialize the index and maxmountain inside the main loop
eulerscheZahl: thanks Captain obvious
Astrobytes: :D
TipuTare: oh
TipuTare: while True: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/1c3b4e54-70bd-4004-b6de-c4c447c809e0
TipuTare: still not working tho
Astrobytes: Are you sure it's i you want to print?
eulerscheZahl: now you made me open the puzzle, are you happy now?
TipuTare: i need the index of the highest mountain
MSmits: should work
eulerscheZahl: print(index)
eulerscheZahl: oh, astro said that already
Astrobytes: Yup.
MSmits: oh right
MSmits: btw, i would suggest variable names that are more clear
TipuTare: why the frick was i printing the i?
MSmits: like "tallest_height"
TipuTare: i think im stupid
MSmits: and "best_index
MSmits:
index is easy to confuse with i
TipuTare: ty
MSmits: because poor naming
Astrobytes: No, you're not stupid. We all make mistakes.
eulerscheZahl: but what's "best"?
MSmits: sure do
TipuTare: still not working tho
MSmits: the best target to shoot
eulerscheZahl: that judgemental
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: it's a good character trait when shooting mountains
TipuTare: wait but its still not working
eulerscheZahl: index_of_most_dangerous_mountain
MSmits: share the code again :)
MSmits: sure, do that :P
eulerscheZahl: works for me TipuTare
eulerscheZahl: while True: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/94b9faa1-85c4-4b63-a7ba-b08be8d38016
eulerscheZahl: all green
MSmits: green is good
TipuTare: oh idk why it didnt work for me
TipuTare: nvm im dumb
eulerscheZahl: we had that already
TipuTare: i declared them inside the for
TipuTare: ty man
MSmits: TipuTare i had problems with this puzzle when i just got to CG
MSmits: did not understand the input/output structure
TipuTare: how old are you?
MSmits: ancient
TipuTare: and what language should i learn?
eulerscheZahl: 29 :older_man:
TipuTare: lol
MSmits: 40 here :P
Astrobytes: 38
TipuTare: im 14
AllYourTrees: 28
eulerscheZahl: oh, you had a carry-through MSmits
MSmits: whats that?
eulerscheZahl: carryover*
eulerscheZahl: me making up new words
MSmits: ok, but what does it mean
eulerscheZahl: 39+1=40
eulerscheZahl: changing the first digit
MSmits: ohhh ok
MSmits: well this was in februari so been a while
ZarthaxX: smito 40
ZarthaxX: toad 29
ZarthaxX: astro 38
ZarthaxX: oh noeeesss
Astrobytes: almost 39
MSmits: if you repeat it, it's easier to remember ZarthaxX
ZarthaxX: NOOOOOOOOO
eulerscheZahl: almost 30 :scream:
ZarthaxX: right :P
ZarthaxX: CG is getting older
BlaiseEbuth: eulerscheZahl you're not so old ! :o I though so
ZarthaxX: :(
eulerscheZahl: how old did you see me BlaiseEbuth?
MSmits: I never remember my age, it's more efficient to calculate it. It's only 1 operation and 1 stored number
TipuTare: whats input().split()
BlaiseEbuth: Zarthold !
ZarthaxX: nice one :P
Astrobytes: OldaxX
eulerscheZahl: input() : reads a line from stdin - codingame will give you that line
eulerscheZahl: split() : split at spaces
BlaiseEbuth: Don't knwo exactly eZ but... About 40... :sweat_smile:
eulerscheZahl: so "1 2 3".split() will become ["1", "2", "3"]
MSmits: when I let students try python on CG puzzles, they always get confused by the input split thingy
Astrobytes: lol really Blaise? :D
TipuTare: ok ty
BlaiseEbuth: Yeah. He's so calm and wise... I really thought he was older ^^
Astrobytes: hehehe
eulerscheZahl: i'm just an impostor of a wise person
MSmits: which one?
MSmits: gandalf?
Astrobytes: :D
eulerscheZahl: that's lord of the rings, isn't it?
ZarthaxX: nice one too astro :P
MSmits: ok so not gandalf
eulerscheZahl: i'm too young to have seen that :P
BlaiseEbuth: :scream:
MSmits: Dumbledore?
eulerscheZahl: i know harry potter
MSmits: good
eulerscheZahl: but *spoiler alert* dumbledore died
TipuTare: anime?
MSmits: mmh if you imitate a dead person it doesnt mean you have to die too
MSmits: thats not how that works
MSmits: "i'm gonna be just like Einstein". "Ok let me get a coffin"
eulerscheZahl: so i can admire van Gogh without cutting my ear off?
MSmits: you got it :P
eulerscheZahl: btw tomorrow is Kotlin heroes again on codeforces
MSmits: why does kotlin make you a hero?
MSmits: I did a course on kotlin once
eulerscheZahl: https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/92165
Astrobytes: Bet you felt heroic afterwards.
MSmits: did not feel like a hero. I feel like a wrote a bunch of one liners and forgot what they did in 5 minutes
eulerscheZahl: that's how i play those contests
eulerscheZahl: there are about 3 months between the rounds, i have to start from 0 every time
TipuTare: what should i learn first guys?
TipuTare: what language
eulerscheZahl: but intellij has a java->kotlin translator
BlaiseEbuth: brainfuck
MSmits: what do you want to use it for TipuTare?
MSmits: languages are made for specific purposes
TipuTare: to become a software engineer i guess
MSmits: yeah that's not very specific :)
TipuTare: then tell me what is phyton used for
BlaiseEbuth: Try java, and you gonna be an "expert"
BlaiseEbuth: Python is used for bad programs
MSmits: i saw a table where it said java engineers are the lowest paid
MSmits: and clojure the highest paid
BlaiseEbuth: Normal
AllYourTrees: python for bad programs??
eulerscheZahl: python is commonly used for machine learning, quick prototyping
TipuTare: what about c++ ?
BlaiseEbuth: good one
MSmits: c++ is a bad place to start imho
eulerscheZahl: with Django and flask there are popular web frameworks for Python
MSmits: C# is nice, python is nice (for short programs)
TipuTare: i already know it cause thats what we do at school
TipuTare: what languages did u guys start off with?
MSmits: C#
BlaiseEbuth: C
eulerscheZahl: my first was Delphi
MSmits: ignoring visual basic, because everyone should
Astrobytes: BASIC
eulerscheZahl: but i wouldn't recommend delphi or basic
Uljahn: basic and asm
eulerscheZahl: actually it was Turbo Pascal for me
TipuTare: and what u guys doing .. websites?
BlaiseEbuth: Salting chats
MSmits: I write bots for codingame mostly. and teaching material for my job
eulerscheZahl: mostly windows desktop applications at work
MSmits: for job, mostly python, for bots, mostly c++
TipuTare: oh so should i start with phyton?
Astrobytes: Well you're already learning it, so learn it well
eulerscheZahl: there is no clear right or wrong answer to this question
eulerscheZahl: but stick with it once you chose a language until you feel comfortable with it
MSmits: python is nice for learning computational thinking, but it hides some of the complexity of how programs run. So you won't get a complete education at first. But this is ok
TipuTare: and what website do u recommend i learn it?
TipuTare: from what website*
MSmits: i did not learn coding from a website so not sure
MSmits: I mostly learned from modding space engineers. You can still do this btw, it's on steam :)
Astrobytes: this one is good once you're relatively comfortable with the basics of your language
TipuTare: i used to do a course in real life but it was c++
TipuTare: and only console
TipuTare: https://hyperskill.org/
BlaiseEbuth: If you stay on python, learn on the python website.
TipuTare: what about this one
Astrobytes: But you have to be prepared to use your search powers and read the language reference
Astrobytes: (when necessary, not from start to finish)
MSmits: AntiSquid, didnt you have some good websites to learn coding?
MSmits: I pinged him, so you might get an anwer at some point later today TipuTare :)
TipuTare: ok ty
MSmits: there's a few guys on here that strongly recommend some site, but i forgot which one
MSmits: maybe coder camp or some such
MSmits: try google that
Astrobytes: As BlaiseEbuth said, if you stick with python, the python website has a lot of useful resources
MSmits: yeah but does it have a project too?
MSmits: you need to have some kind of goal
sprkrd: maybe I will get banned for this, but what about Coursera?
MSmits: or specific exercises
zsltg: the official website definitely https://www.python.org/ or maybe https://realpython.com/ ?
Astrobytes: You can search for that elsewhere MSmits
MSmits: thats true
Uljahn: https://diveintopython3.net/
MSmits: btw if TipuTare knows a bit of c++ and knows how loops and conditions work and such. Just google + python might be enough to solve some easy puzzles
Astrobytes: That's why I suggested here first if he's relatively comfortable with it
MSmits: yeah
TipuTare: sprkrd dont risk getting banned just for me man
Uljahn: https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/
Astrobytes: Isn't edx better than coursera? (I'm not sure either way)
MSmits: i think the most important part of learning to code is not giving up. Motivation is everything here
TipuTare: should i the courses here on codingame?
Astrobytes: Yeah. Be curious. Break stuff, fix stuff, make things.
eulerscheZahl: no one will get banned for recommending Coursera
TipuTare: ok guys thanks
MSmits: except infinite bob
Astrobytes: InfiniBob gets banned for existing.
MSmits: yeah
TipuTare: See ya
TipuTare: byeee
eulerscheZahl: is that a user I missed?
MSmits: bye :)
eulerscheZahl: bye
MSmits: trust me, you won't miss him
Astrobytes: Bye TipuTare :)
Astrobytes: Yeah. InfiniBob has infinite accounts you know.
MSmits: he called Astrobytes a retard :shock:
eulerscheZahl: https://cg.spdns.eu/index.php?search=InfiniBob&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=all&fulltext=1
eulerscheZahl: "There were no results matching the query."
Astrobytes: it was earlier this afternoon.
eulerscheZahl: oh, then i have to wait until tomorrow
MSmits: Astrobytes did a deep removal
MSmits: all trace of infinite bob are gone
Astrobytes: And InfiniBob is not his username. Just one I have assigned to him.
MSmits: yeah because he said he had infinite accounts
sprkrd: eulerscheZahl Yeah I know, it was a joke because I know some people don't like learning from videos :joy:
MSmits: i really dislike learning anything with coding from a video
MSmits: I need to be able to copy paste stuff
MSmits: I dont like being stuck to the pace of a video also
Astrobytes: It was BobTschigerilllo, BobTschigerillo, BobTschigerilo, BobCigerilllo etc etc
eulerscheZahl: that bob said hi on #de yesterday
eulerscheZahl: oh, he came back today and i missed it :(
MSmits: oh so he was already mad because you banned him there
sprkrd: MSmits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLZjd_Y1gJ8
sprkrd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLZjd_Y1gJ8
sprkrd: sorry
sprkrd: got something messed up in my clipboard
eulerscheZahl: ban
sprkrd: I was saying that I mostly dislike learning from videos too, but I enjoy some videos for the ideas rather than for the code
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: yeah some are nice
Astrobytes: I like some lectures and stuff too if I'm learning new things.
sprkrd: then I copied the link for an example video and deleted my original message :joy:
MSmits: this is the best tutorial site i know: https://catlikecoding.com/unity/tutorials/
eulerscheZahl: if i'm completely new to a topic, a video tutorial is fine for me
MSmits: all written
eulerscheZahl: if i have some understanding already, i get impatient, skip forward and miss the part i was looking for. wasting more time than when watching in normal speed
Astrobytes: Yeah, I'm guilty of that
sprkrd: that happens a lot with machine learning stuff, when they re-explain the same thing in every single video
MSmits: same
sprkrd: like what is overfitting, what is underfitting, etc etc
MSmits: yup. I also think 95% of people watching ML videos never get beyond the basics. People are interested in it, but when you get into the real stuff, it's hard work
sprkrd: because it starts with linear regression videos, and people's preconceived idea usually comes from the movies
sprkrd: "what's all these math things you're trying to teach me, i want sci-fi stuff!"
AllYourTrees: ML is interesting because the frameworks make things so "easy" now, but its still at the point where no one really understands why things work so you still need in depth knowledge to set hyperparameters effectively
Astrobytes: and other media
Astrobytes: (re. preconceived ideas)
Wontonimo: that is an overstatement about noone knowing why things work. Also, the idea that ML is a black box is very overstated
BlaiseEbuth: It's a blackbox... If you use a plugin that do everything
BlaiseEbuth: *lib
Wontonimo: so true
MSmits: it's more that we understand the parts and not the whole. a NN has a lot of emergent behavior. Like a biologer will understand what cells do, but it's hard to translate that to the workings of the entire organism
MSmits: the complexity just gets very high. it's supposed to. There's a reason we replace a game state evaluation with a neural network. It's exactly because the complexity of the game got too high for us to grasp all at once.
MSmits: that doesnt mean we don't "understand" neural networks
MSmits: it's that if we could split the inner workings into parts and understand them separately, we wouldn't need a neural network in the first place
MSmits: because we could have come up with the parts ourselves and stick them together (like a normal minimax eval)
MSmits: the lack of "understanding" in the traditional sense is by design
therealbeef: kind of like chaos theory
Wontonimo: There was a paper (I'll post it if I find it again) in which it compared the effectiveness of a completely random multi layer Dense NN with a final linear regression layer vs a traditional multi layer Dense NN that used backprop for training
Wontonimo: The conclusion was that with a wide enough random DNN + just linear regression you can achieve state-of-the-art (circa 2016 ish when the paper came out)
sprkrd: Wontonimo The Extreme Learning Machine's paper?
Wontonimo: and the followup statement that if the wide random DNN is just a random feature generator, then with enough random features then linear regression is enough
sprkrd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_learning_machine
sprkrd: I studied that method way back when i was doing the master's
sprkrd: There's quite a bit of controversy around it (assuming it's the one you mean)
Wontonimo: nice quick link. Thanks. That may be it
Wontonimo: I remember a key point being that it needs to be very wide to be effective
sprkrd: maybe it's not the one you meant, the paper is from before 2016 (although you said circa)
Wontonimo: 2016 ish
sprkrd: the controversy is due to a plagiarism matter,, not about its effectiveness
Wontonimo: oh, plagiarism. tisk tisk on them
sprkrd: and well, at the end of the day random weights for the first layer are an interesting idea and may give you ok results sometimes for the classical datasets, but i wouldn't bet in it taking us too far
sprkrd: the authors say they didn't plagiarize anything, and blah blah blah. I'd say it's probably a case in which they didn't have any idea of previous similar methods or didn't care enough to see the connection.
Wontonimo: let's say your hardware was such that you couldn't really update the weights, but you could have 100x as many (but random) than some other hardware.
Wontonimo: if you could make each of your layers 100x as wide, then you'll cover probably all the meaningful combinations of weights
Wontonimo: now take a look at photonic interference NNs, whereby the convolution is performed by interference pattern of light scattering from one printed filter to another
Wontonimo: anyway, i digress. my original point was with enough random features you can reduce the problem to a linear regression
sprkrd: Just to know that we're on the same page: are we talking about the same thing? A hidden layer connected with random weights to the input followed by an output layer with weights tuned via linear regression on the random features of the hidden layer?
Wontonimo: I'm expanding it to multiple layers
sprkrd: I don't know... I wouldn't bet on it working for segmenting 1024x768 images, for instance
Wontonimo: and since I can't find the original source, I can't say if multiple layers was in there.
sprkrd: In ELM I think they do shallow networks with just one hidden layer, but maybe you had in mind a different paper that expanded on this premise
Wontonimo: Here is a related paper (not the one I was thinking of which focused on DNN) that address your image question https://arxiv.org/pdf/1911.13299.pdf
Wontonimo: it states that a large random RESNET-50 image network has highly effective subnetworks in it that perform as well as RESNET-34
Wontonimo: now i'm on a quest to find that original paper ! :D
sprkrd: yeah... it's a bold claim, but the work seems highly exploratory
sprkrd: they achieve good results in CIFAR10, and say that the results are not so good on ImageNet (although they find a "promising trend")
sprkrd: the problem is that CIFAR10 is a kid's problem, so to speak, for classifying images into 10 categories
sprkrd: It's not segmentation really
sprkrd: anyway, the claim is interesting, and I don't mean to contradict it, but it seems to me that there's a long road ahead and I don't quite see it as a promising direction
jacek: wide enough layer, like n-tuple?
jacek: and why RoboStac is resubmiting oware bot? :scream:
RoboStac: testing caching nn lookups
jacek: oh my
RoboStac: gives much better performance later on, but slightly worse on early turns
jacek: the pair thing?
RoboStac: no, just having a hashtable for gamestate -> nn results
jacek: ahh this. its just TT for NN
RoboStac: yeah
RoboStac: makes a massive difference on C$
jacek: no transpositions in oware until the end
RoboStac: but I oware states don't transpose as often
RoboStac: they transpose a lot more than I was expecting though
jacek: more transpositions in breakthrough or checkers
Myrky: Hello
Myrky: A little question guys
Myrky: If I try to do a puzzle in JS/TS there is a method named readline()
Myrky: But I cannot run that method in a browser
Myrky: As in, copy the code locally and try it on my IDE
jacek: in console?
jacek: readline() reads from input. its how it get data for puzzle. in C it would be i.e. scanf
RoboStac: yeah, I believe js doesn't have a synchronous one by default so CG add one to make the code simpler. I think there are implementations on the forum you can add to run locally
Myrky: aha... oh well, then I will just code a solve() function in my IDE and use unit tests without invoving the console
jacek: or instead of x = readline() do x = "test case input"
Wontonimo: +1 for simplicity
sprkrd: you know... for these things I've always thought that Javascript is kind of a lousy language for anything not-web related
jacek: and web-related as well :v
BlaiseEbuth: :thumbsup:
sprkrd: jacek I didn't want to be harsh and come to that, but I'm glad you did :D
struct: robo destroyed me :(
RoboStac: sorry :(
struct: its fine :p
RoboStac: just need to find a way past smits now
struct: I dont understand why my bot struggles so mnuch vs you
struct: much*
Myrky: @jacek well, I could do that, but then I wouldn`t have a suite of unit tests for easy testing, much faster than on an IDE
Astrobytes: AllYourTrees: Liking the 'cold war' we have going on in BT :D
AllYourTrees: haha yeah slowly but surely
AllYourTrees: you are almost in the 20s nice!
Astrobytes: Indeed. I'm trying to squeeze as much as I can before I implement some other bits and pieces.
AllYourTrees: nice, whats your approach?
Astrobytes: my usual alphabeta
AllYourTrees: oooooh nice, did you come up with a custom eval fn?
Astrobytes: Yep. That's what I'm tweaking
AllYourTrees: cool!!
Astrobytes: Once I fixed that silly bug the other day it gave me a chance to play around a bit.
AllYourTrees: what was the bug??
Astrobytes: I can't remember lol, something in the movegen, was doing some invalid moves
struct: still need to start bt
AllYourTrees: ohhh ya i remember now
struct: my goal is to beat robo
Astrobytes: It was a really easy fix too
struct: :)
Astrobytes: Where is he wrecking you struct? C4 I presume?
struct: yes
struct: but im done with c4
struct: im not gonna waste time on it
Astrobytes: "I'm done with <insert multi>" yeah, yeah :D
struct: its not healthy to stare at leaderboard
Astrobytes: That is true.
struct: at least I still have the rank 1 screenshot :D
Astrobytes: Stare at the code instead. Usually more productive
Astrobytes: hehehe
Marchete: :eyes::bar_chart:
Astrobytes: hey Marchete, your Oware AZ tech.io article is excellent, thanks
Marchete: and at least I have 1 peer review, jolindie_n was able to reach top 5 with it
struct: After I finish reading the book ill read your article
struct: otherwise Ill probably wont understand it
Marchete: My article is TLDR
Astrobytes: oh wow, so he did
Astrobytes: struct, actually I'd recommend it now
Marchete: no complex formulas or thoerical stuff
Astrobytes: Well, it's light on the matter, but explains the processes well
Marchete: :thumbsup:
Marchete: glad you liked
struct: but i still dont understand how NNs work
struct: so i might need to read the book fits
struct: first*
Marchete: NN is a function approximation to me
Astrobytes: ^
Marchete: at least how do I use it
jacek: isnt it what is it
jacek: NN for me is extended eval with much more tweakable params to tune
jacek: while in classical eval you could tune by hand or semi automatic, in NN you need (almost?) exclusively use gradient descent based on data
Marchete: yea
struct: but I still dont understand the layers part well
jacek: and meh, when you two fight with me in bt, i lose points :c
Marchete: like a massive coeff paramtuning
Astrobytes: still sounds like function approximation :D
AllYourTrees: NN is just matrix multiplications
struct: anyways my eta for NN is 2025 so plenty of time
Astrobytes: 2025 NN or delete eh
AllYourTrees: M A C H I N E L E A R N I N G
Marchete: 2025 will be anything else
Marchete: 2021 is NN year
RoboStac: surely he'll have deleted for some other reason by then?
Astrobytes: Possibly robo :D
struct: :(
Marchete: are you improving your NN even more, RoboStac?
RoboStac: maybe
RoboStac: I made it worse first
RoboStac: but I think it's now at least as good
AllYourTrees: Marchete have you tried your implementation on C4?
Marchete: that'd be my next multi
Marchete: but as I have a baseline
Marchete: I want to explore all ideas before moving to C4
AllYourTrees: gotcha
struct: if you need help with the sim feel free to ask
Wontonimo: (raises hand)
struct: I might even share with you how i update the moves ;)
AllYourTrees: :O
Marchete: I was thinking about reusing either pons's code, or fhourstones88, to be true
Marchete: update is adding a bit, isn't it?
Marchete: but I need to reuse NN between states, maybe
AllYourTrees: you need a small NNUE
Marchete: it seems updateable at first layer
Marchete: yes
jacek: both you and jolindien use C# :thinking:
struct: its a wrapper isnt it?
Marchete: he posted a comment on tech.io
Marchete: so I assume he used it
RoboStac: yeah, he's said in chat he used it
AllYourTrees: i love it when i introduce a bug and get 3 million rollouts
jacek: i think struct meant if c# was wrapper for c++
struct: maybe I have the same bug AllYourTrees
jacek: c# being 3rd in leaderboard, noice
Marchete: it's a wrapper, yes
AllYourTrees: lol your magical code is a mystery to me struct
Marchete: https://github.com/marchete/CGZero/blob/master/src/ENCODER16k.cs
struct: if you think on how you can update moves without clearing and setting a bit it makes sense
AllYourTrees: ohhh
jacek: by... xoring!
Marchete: board |= move?
AllYourTrees: i think i just added that to my BT bot actually
AllYourTrees: board has 2 bits set and xor like jacek said?
AllYourTrees: well idk if you need two for c4
struct: no
jacek: dunno i never saw his code
struct: also i dont need ctz to get the bitindex this way
struct: i guess ill just share it
struct: since im done with c4
AllYourTrees: will you regret this tomorrow lol
Marchete: http://cgstats.magusgeek.com/app/multi-oware-abapa/RoboStac
struct: ok then maybe i wont
struct: :p
Marchete: seems better...
jacek: :F
RoboStac: it should be slightly better, it's the same but generally faster as far as I can tell (first turn gets less nodes created as it has the least transposition, but after that it gets better)
jacek: maybe it handles loppy endgames better
RoboStac: yeah, the endgame stats look much better
struct: your c4 also seems better now
struct: at least if i make my ai play worse I no longer win
RoboStac: c4 I'm actually still training
struct: :scream:
RoboStac: oware I'm just porting improvements from c4
struct: so the c4 is the same ai?
RoboStac: I had a slow nncache on C4 before as when I was trying convolution it helped a lot, but I made it much better and it's now fast enough to be useful on oware too
AllYourTrees: whats your nn structure robo?
RoboStac: but I did forget that gamestates aren't unique per player on oware
Astrobytes: Oh good job on Oware robo
RoboStac: which is why it looked to help so much but made it play worse originally
RoboStac: AllYourTrees on c4 or oware?
AllYourTrees: c4!
jacek: :bomb:
RoboStac: 63x3 inputs -> 256 -> 9/1 outputs
jacek: one hots are hot topic now
RoboStac: I'd always have one hotted c4
Marchete: 9/1 means you get 10 and then you do something to split, or there are 2 outputs?
Smelty: yes
AllYourTrees: interesting ty!
Marchete: I've tried 9+1 and "separate" in loss function
Marchete: didn't get any better
Marchete: well, 6+1
RoboStac: yeah, 10 outputs from the same dense layer with softmax on 0-8 and tanh on 9
darkhorse64: how do you choose size and number of hidden layers ? Guess work ? Voodoo ?
Marchete: I was unable to do it
Marchete: voodoo mainly
RoboStac: in training they're separate networks ( 256 -> 1 and 256 -> 9 ), I just combine the weights afterwards
Marchete: ahhh
RoboStac: darkhorse64 - yeah, pretty much.
AllYourTrees: 256 is divisble by 4 so amenable to simd at least
AllYourTrees: #math
RoboStac: yeah, everything has to be divisible by 8
RoboStac: or it gets messy
Marchete: AVX2 -> 8 floats
AllYourTrees: :facepalm:
AllYourTrees: yeah i *totally* knew that
AllYourTrees: >.>
RoboStac: my 10 output layer is technically doing 16 values
RoboStac: I just pretend they're not there
AllYourTrees: oh seriously? is that that much of a speed up?
Marchete: sometimes up to 6x
jacek: impossibru
Marchete: you can code "normally" and sometimes the compiler optimizes it
BlaiseEbuth: Nani?!
AllYourTrees: holy cow
jacek: you killed the chat eh
AllYourTrees: rip indeed
Marchete: :skull_crossbones:
Astrobytes: I just wasn't in chat, nothing to do with AllYourConversations here
AllYourTrees: AllYourWords
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: RoboStac if your NN caching only helps in late game. Just generate an endgame book
MSmits: takes 500 ms to get a 9 seed one
Illedan: Where is the fun in that?
MSmits: it's fun for me :P
Illedan: :D
RoboStac: caching pretty much helps all the time, it just gets better endgame
MSmits: ahh ok
RoboStac: plus if I use 500ms then I definitely lose a lot of turn 1 sims
RoboStac: but yeah, it'd probably be a better idea
RoboStac: though less useful for other games
MSmits: for bandas it's awesome
MSmits: better than oware
MSmits: ah but nvm, it's hardcoded in bandas
MSmits: takes too long to generate
RoboStac: I've got a lot of spare bandas codespace
MSmits: you need your codesize
MSmits: oh
MSmits: then its possible, i need only like 25 kb
MSmits: for a size 12 endgame book
MSmits: (3x4, 4x3 etc.)
RoboStac: it's seems to be a game where the eval doesn't need a massive network and performance matters
MSmits: i wouldnt know
MSmits: but i get now why the caching helps
MSmits: it doesnt help for me in any games, because my evals are fast
MSmits: but if you are bottlenecking hard on eval, it does make sense
Marchete: caching is probably game agnostic too
Marchete: so less time for implementing it
RoboStac: yeah, my oware one should be (just have to write a == and a hash function for each game)
RoboStac: my c4 one wasn't because I forgot the turn / player are encoded in the gamestate there
Marchete: but your nncache is simply a hash check?
MSmits: what do you mean encoded in the gamestate?
RoboStac: as in you can never have the same state with different players to move
MSmits: thats true i guess
RoboStac: in oware you can
MSmits: after turn 1
MSmits: (when steal has happened or not)
MSmits: yeah you can, except turn 1, which is only ever one side
MSmits: also if a side doesnt have an empty pit, it cant be p2
MSmits: i mean it cant be the player not to move
MSmits: actually around 20% or so "possible" states in oware arent possible because neither player has empty pits
MSmits: i tried to get this fact into my endgame book to make it more compact, but it was too hard to turn it into an index function
MSmits: so i just have dead spots in the book that are never used. Pretty common to endgame books
AllYourTrees: Marchete do you have new MCTS per turn, or MCTS per game in your CGzero?
MSmits: do you mean if he reuses tree?
MSmits: also are you asking during training or in the actual CG games?
AllYourTrees: yeah
AllYourTrees: training
MSmits: ahh ok
MSmits: oh wait, do you mean a single tree for both players?
MSmits: like, a single process playing itself with 1 tree?
MSmits: I do this in meta mcts
AllYourTrees: i guess theres a couple ways it could be.
1. new MCTS instance per turn
2. MCTS instace per player that is reused on each turn
3. one MCTS instance for both players that is reused on each turn
MSmits: i see no reason to use 1 over 2, unless you like the simplicity of it
MSmits: it shouldnt matter that much
MSmits: 3 is a different thing though, it's more efficient, but it could maybe have side effects
AllYourTrees: :shrug: 1. cause thats what the pseudocode for AZ did
Marchete: https://github.com/marchete/CGZero/blob/master/src/CGZero.cpp#L1865
Marchete: I changed it to use it in selfplay too
Marchete: too complicated
Marchete: maybe I'd go the simple way
Marchete: big array and when it's almost full, reset it
MSmits: do you reuse?
Marchete: yes
MSmits: but do both players use the same tree in training?
Marchete: no
MSmits: thats a different way to reuse
MSmits: if it's selfplay, it might not matter
Marchete: selfplay players aren't the same sometimes
MSmits: it does matter if you are pitting different versions
MSmits: ah right
AllYourTrees: i have same version so it wouldn't matter for me i guess
MSmits: It always worked ok for me, to do it this way
MSmits: it saves me from having two processes both using a huge chunk of memory and waiting on eachother
AllYourTrees: i can't think if there'd be any bad side effects? like if you have a single tree then both players can look further, which means policy is more accurate?
AllYourTrees: search policy*
MSmits: yeah I cant see any either, but maybe there are
RoboStac: there some exploration differences as the AZ noise is only added to the root
Marchete: that's true
AllYourTrees: hmmm ya
MSmits: what would that do though?
RoboStac: but it does work fine
Marchete: add noisy noise
AllYourTrees: previous searches may influence current search maybe?
MSmits: thats always the case with reuse
MSmits: the reuse is just stronger
RoboStac: if you have too many mcts iterations it can cause the noise to be entirely irrelevant because the nodes have so many visits
Marchete: it's true, I forgot the dirichlet noise...
MSmits: ahh right, but thats a problem with reuse in general
RoboStac: yeah
MSmits: you want to control the number of iterations, then you cant reuse
MSmits: or i guess, at least you have to stop at 200 or whatever
MSmits: so if it already has 100 visits, you stop at another 100 that urn
MSmits: turn
RoboStac: yeah, theres some debate about whether it should do x extra iterations or stop once the root has x visits
AllYourTrees: robo have a link? would be curious to read further
MSmits: x visits makes more sense to me
RoboStac: https://github.com/leela-zero/leela-zero/issues/1156
MSmits: it should not matter in which turn the visits were obtained
MSmits: this doesnt affect the tree
AllYourTrees: ty
RoboStac: except we're back to the noise being on the root so you are lowering exploration
MSmits: hmm ok
MSmits: well then thats just another thing to experiment with :)
RoboStac: yep
Marchete: I added the tree reuse on selfplay
Marchete: but I'm in doubt now
Marchete: I think I may add some noise on the function too
Marchete: tree reuse function*
MSmits: I think the benefit or damage to your bot by making one choice or other in this is too small to properly research
Marchete: only game diversity
MSmits: some things just only matter a little
Marchete: so many little things
MSmits: yeah
Marchete: and don't start with the damn cpuct
AllYourTrees: lol
Marchete: a constant that isn't a constant
AllYourTrees: ikr, i still have mine as a constant
Marchete: based of on smth?
Marchete: or just guessed?
AllYourTrees: the az c4 article
MSmits: well... I don't think you have to do everything the same as the actual azero algorithm
MSmits: maybe other things work better in CG constraints
Marchete: I was using leela chess zero as some reference too
RoboStac: yeah, the leela calculation is much more complicated
Marchete: i've seen documents with cpuct 3, 4, 2,1, 0.5
Marchete: I mean any possible number
RoboStac: yeah, not helped by people having different ranges for the output value
Marchete: yes, the 0..1 range in AZ
RoboStac: but thats no different to standard mcts articles I guess
Marchete: true
**dbdr celebrates getting back the #1
Marchete: congrats
Marchete: where?
RoboStac: asteroids?
Astrobytes: oh nice
dbdr: https://planetoids21.kattis.com/standings
Marchete: CoC?
dbdr: yeah
RoboStac: nice
Astrobytes: oh you're also 1st on CG now too, I have been away too long indeed
Marchete: yes, good job
dbdr: I lost the lead by 50 points, now I took a lead of 4K. still too much time left
Astrobytes: Much more significant lead than earlier on asteroids
Marchete: how's the planetoid game?
MSmits: huh wow dbdr, how did you get 1st on CG
MSmits: i didn't know you were that close
dbdr: probably the smart thing now would be to sleep :)
Astrobytes: How long you got tomorrow?
dbdr: until 9pm CEST
Astrobytes: (in terms of your available time I mean)
dbdr: planetoid is underspecified, so it's partly reverse. and usual optim
dbdr: I'll make time :)
Marchete: you played with advantage on this, a seasoned optim+multi player
Marchete: ;)
Astrobytes: hehehe, in that case, sleep sounds good but you know you're gonna try a few things beforehand :D
dbdr: yeah, but I guess i'm not the only one. not sure about that crowd
dbdr: NinjaDoggy is there
MSmits: don't let him ninja your swag bag
Astrobytes: I'd be expecting late submits
dbdr: I just did try a few thing, and eventually one was fruitful :)
Astrobytes: In that case then sleep while the going is good :D
dbdr: the seeds are secret though, so late submits might be risky
RoboStac: is there any point to late submits as you can't see what others are doing / have no idea what the validators are ?
Astrobytes: Interesting
Astrobytes: I didn't realise that, my bad
dbdr: I guess only a psychological point
dbdr: let others think they are safe
MSmits: and then nab the swag bag
dbdr: you're obsessed about the sawg :D
MSmits: I know :P
dbdr: I'm more interested about going to Moscow ;)
Astrobytes: Smits is a burglar by night and teacher by day
Marchete: I hope you win dbdr, you are the master on optims
MSmits: yup
Astrobytes: Yeah, hold on to that lead man
dbdr: thanks!
MSmits: oh thanks again dbdr
MSmits: 28th -26th from that bug you spotted
dbdr: calm?
MSmits: yea
dbdr: cool!
MSmits: i mean from the cp
MSmits: it was the C# update
MSmits: no more mono trick
Marchete: no mono trick for codegolf
MSmits: no it was that think where you restarted main with some arg
Marchete: or what trick do you mean?
MSmits: or something
Marchete: ahh
MSmits: that crashed my bot and i was 167th legend
MSmits: now 37th or so
Marchete: I think they added release mode
MSmits: yeah so i hear. I didnt realize what that would do to my bot
MSmits: i dont much code C# these days, just some local windows forms stuff
struct: my c4 bot is dead :(
struct: time to move on
BlaiseEbuth: All dead. All dead. All the dreams we had...
Marchete: RIP
Astrobytes: Rust In Peace
ja_fica: jacek, you there?
ja_fica: or robostac
RoboStac: hi
ja_fica: Hi, you use NN in C4?
RoboStac: yes
ja_fica: You train it with regular DRL or data generated from MCTS
ja_fica: Im trying to do a c++ convoluiton neural network, but Im having trouble to generate good data to fit in the first place
RoboStac: it's alphazero based, so does self play with a fixed number of mcts runs per turn and trains a value against the gameresult / and a policy against the vistis
RoboStac: I also gave up on convolution as I wasn't getting good results
ja_fica: you output the action or the evaluation ou both?
ja_fica: *or
ja_fica: Thats odd, conv patterns seems a good fit for C4
RoboStac: https://adspassets.blob.core.windows.net/website/content/alpha_go_zero_cheat_sheet.png
RoboStac: conv was fine except the performance is so low that it keeps falling into traps
RoboStac: it's a good fit for the connecting 4 part but struggles with the endgame movecount part i think
RoboStac: as a pattern that gives you an easy connect 4 can be entirely broken by one extra piece on the opposite side of the board changing where moves are forced
ja_fica: You train it in c++?
RoboStac: the actual training is python based, but generating training data is c++
RoboStac: https://tech.io/playgrounds/58137/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game-codingame/alphazero-like-implementation-for-oware-abapa-game <-- article by marchete who has a similar setup
ja_fica: thanks
ja_fica: you use the prediction multiple times or just 1 per turn?
RoboStac: multiple times - think of it as mcts but the rollout is replaced with a NN evaluation
Hudie: :expressionless:
ja_fica: I'm going to try it
ja_fica: I have already succesefully created the matrix multiplication with bias and relu
ja_fica: in c++, just not the training, thats a little too complicated for me, specially with otpimizers
ja_fica: With NN it seems too costly, how many rollouts can you do?
ja_fica: It defnitly works doe
RoboStac: I get about 20-25k nn evaluations per turn. It's costly but as it guides the tree search / is a more accurate value it ends up working
RoboStac: my conv network was less than 5k evaluations
RoboStac: which I think was the main problem
Wontonimo: ja_fica are you going to use a lib like pytorch or tensorflow for training?
Wontonimo: wow, how are you possibly doing C4 without conv? That's amazing
ja_fica: i was going to use keras
Wontonimo: that must take an insane number of training steps
ja_fica: 126 inputs is enought
ja_fica: yes conv look like faster
ja_fica: ate least in training
ja_fica: *at
RoboStac: it's up to 800k games played and still seems to be improving, not sure if that counts as insane or not :)
Wontonimo: and do you save those games or just generate a new one every time?
RoboStac: it does a batch of 4000 games, then trains on the data. Keeps a history of the last 10 million samples (game turns) to train from
Wontonimo: Here is a training schedule called "The biggest loser". I'd be super interested in how it improves / hinders your NN
Wontonimo: the idea is to only train on the worst 10% (or 20% whatever) of a batch. so if your training batch is 1000, then check them all for error, and only actually use the worst 100 for training
Wontonimo: How hard would it be for you to try that out RoboStac?
Wontonimo: The huge benefit this algo has is that from my experience it helps train the network much faster, like 2 to 10 times faster,
Wontonimo: and it catches outlier cases a lot better, and doesn't spend most of it's training on things it already knows well
RoboStac: depends if I need to find the worst 10% of the whole history or just the 10% of the samples to train on (I take many sets of 2048 samples from my history for training)
Wontonimo: just from the sample.
Wontonimo: do you use tensorflow?
RoboStac: yeah
Wontonimo: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/56e1f785-8c0a-4d3c-a637-93fb2fe9ad20
Wontonimo: where k is the number of samples. If your batch is 2048, then a k of 512 would be 1/4th
Wontonimo: no other change to your architecture is needed
RoboStac: I'll have a play with it when I get bored of this current C4 training
RoboStac: need to get the final 0.02 trueskill to get past smits
RoboStac: :)
Wontonimo: if you do, Please let me know how it goes. Congrats on getting so so very close !
RoboStac: I'm 99% sure I could just resubmit and be top, but going to leave it running overnight to see if it improves further
Wontonimo: i suspect he is beating you on those edge case, which I think worst_k loss function will help you with
Wontonimo: *finish him* lol
Wontonimo: I don't know what your loss function is, but if it isn't categorical_crossentropy, then just replace the categorical_crossentropy part of worst_k
RoboStac: yeah, it's a bit more complicated as it's two outputs (value/policy) but shouldn't be a difficult change
Wontonimo: if you are using a dual head network, you can specify a loss function per head like so
Wontonimo: model.compile(optimizer="adam",
loss=[customLossA, customLossB],
metrics=[['mse'], ['accuracy']]
Wontonimo: if not, then it isn't as straight forward
Hudie: https://www.codingame.com/clashofcode/clash/18386440f701e6505ee26c193f42b3f6c7f5de3
Hudie: come on baby
Wontonimo: nice job at getting to First RoboStac
Wontonimo: that is no small lead
Wontonimo: ja_fica, what's your architecture for C4 ? You are climbing
ja_fica: very smart rollouts
ja_fica: each rollouts average +32 plays
ja_fica: I choose to back 1 before in case of a play that is a lose
ja_fica: Also AVX helps
ja_fica: helps arround 55% more visits
ja_fica: Ofc, if the rollouts are too smart, I will have too low rollouts, so I set as an hyperparmeter how much to go back
ja_fica: I choose 3 for the current sumbition
struct: I pushed robo
struct: Now I cant lose many points vs him
struct: :D
ja_fica: good thinking :)
struct: Wontonimo if you want to do connect 4
struct: feel free to ask for help
struct: ok found a better version
struct: now im fully done with c4
struct: time to do breathrough
Wontonimo: Thanks struct, I appreciate the offer and will probably take you up on it later
struct: np
struct: im not the rank 1 bot but I can still give a few tips
struct: but grats to robo for making a great bot
Wontonimo: your bot is VERY impressive
struct: thanks
Wontonimo: ja_fica what do you mean "I choose to back 1 before" ?
ja_fica: I have a function that predicts the places where I can put a piece without directly losing
ja_fica: so I test my possibilities to see if any the current move leads to it
ja_fica: If it does, then the enemy can win
Wontonimo: I've heard a couple people saying that smart rollouts work well for this, which is very different than UTTT
ja_fica: so I roll back a play
ja_fica: yes it is
ja_fica: UTTT probably benifits a way more from neural networks
Wontonimo: are you almost doing a minimax for every move?
Wontonimo: when doing 3 for example
ja_fica: MCTS solver is based in minimax
ja_fica: It sure backs my algorithm
ja_fica: solver > non-solver
struct: solver seems like always an improvement
struct: it was on uttt
Wontonimo: the question was more about your rollout, and the rollback of 1 or 3.
struct: I dont rollback at all, he does
ja_fica: rollout 3
ja_fica: *rollback 3
ja_fica: Its a tradeoff, the smarter the rollouts, the less I have
Wontonimo: for sure
struct: early game seems important
Wontonimo: late game too lol
ja_fica: this smart rollouts help in the first moves
struct: dont think so
struct: sometimes I solve 30+ moves before game is over
ja_fica: solver helps mid-game
Wontonimo: wow, yeah makes sense
struct: this happens if most of the moves are forced moves
struct: it doesnt happen everytime
struct: sometimes is hard to solve
Wontonimo: it's game over once MTCS solver finds the move
struct: yeap
struct: at least now i have someone to put up a fight against me on contest
struct: :D
struct: from my country I mean
ja_fica: yes, I will be there :)
Wontonimo: ᕦ(ຈل͜ຈ)ᕤ
ja_fica: I didn't know how cool contests were before
ja_fica: Now I am CG addicted
struct: I wonder if next will also be a board game
struct: I hope its something fresh
Wontonimo: cheers to that
struct: Is not that I dislike board games, but there is so much that can be done
struct: ok i kinda dislike board games, but not all of them
ja_fica: board game are way too deterministic
ja_fica: ate least the turn-based full-state
struct: well that happens more on games that always have same starting state
struct: This is why when I ported amazons
Wontonimo: i see you've been on the platform for a few years ja_fica
struct: I made the positions random
struct: https://www.codingame.com/multiplayer/bot-programming/amazons/leaderboard
struct: I still have to make a bot for it
struct: if you check the replays you will see that the positions are random
ja_fica: When I started CG I just played Clashs, I did get to rank 6
Wontonimo: haha, make a multi but don't make a bot
struct: But with a few conditions
struct: Wontonimo I ported 4 games
struct: I dont have a bot for any of them
ja_fica: sounds interesting
struct: jacek has a bot that beats his current bot by 90%+ win rate
Wontonimo: I was thinking it would be a good candidate for CNN eval
ja_fica: C4 looks perfect for CNN eval
ja_fica: the problem is the slow prediction phase
struct: The problem that the random has is that I dont know if positions are balanced
struct: but 2 games are played from each position so it makes it fair
ja_fica: as every thing random, with enough games it should go upwards the balance
struct: you play one game as white and one as red
struct: black*
cognivore: is there a filter to never play shortest code challenges? they yield bad habits and are unwinnable in rust or any other language where tthere are a lot of ceremonies.
struct: no cognivore, its only available on private clashes
Wontonimo: but we just don't get that many games ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ)
struct: What do you mean Wontonimo?
cognivore: well, I guess I'll play everything as a speed clash haha and skip shortest code ones
struct: cognivore submit always 1 char on shortest
struct: you wont lose as many points
cognivore: @struct, I don't understand
struct: if people get 0%
cognivore: There's ELO? :thinking:
struct: you will place above tem
struct: them*
struct: yes
struct: But dont care much about it
cognivore: Gah, I was so happy that I started winning :D
cognivore: But I guess it just placed me into the abyss
struct: its not really elo
struct: you get matched vs any player
Wontonimo: i like that Amazons is 2 games in a row to make it fair. The alternative of just running lots of games to make up for the randomness with the 2 game mirror is just out of our hands and not good cost/benefit anyway
struct: its not elo based matchmaking
struct: true, i stole it from re curse chess
Wontonimo: oh man, the 1 char submit is so evil. i've never done that
ja_fica: get 100% on shortest mode
ja_fica: its still training
struct: that also works
ja_fica: And many shorstest are not finished
struct: but if he just wants to skip it he should submit 1 char
ja_fica: just playit like a fastest
ja_fica: yes
Wontonimo: good night, i'm falling asleep on the keyboard
struct: gn wontonimo
Siddhesh18: space is an ASCII character with value 32
