UnkownUser2768: hi yall
FlyHead: :nerd:
hosseinZK86: hi
yassirsecurity: hi
trashcan06: Servers fixed woohooo!
yourmomsbutt: hello, has anybody here done kirk's quest?
uvBoss: yeah
uvBoss: whatup
uvBoss: u mean the labirynth?
yourmomsbutt: no, sorry, I mean The Descent
uvBoss: i have done it
uvBoss: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/the-descent
uvBoss: this?
yourmomsbutt: yes
uvBoss: wait let me catch up on what the puzzle is then i can help :)
yourmomsbutt: i'm having trouble understanding the requirements, more precisely the input the game is providing. is that from 0 to 9? or value 0 is 100, value 1 is 85 etc ?
uvBoss: okay so
uvBoss: there are 8 "grids"
uvBoss: the game provides the height of mountain at each grid
uvBoss: u have to keep record the highest and shoot it
uvBoss: do u get it?
uvBoss: @yourmomsbutt
yourmomsbutt: what do you mean by grid?
yourmomsbutt: i am trying to solve it in java
yourmomsbutt: if it makes any difference
uvBoss: just divisions on the screen which divides the whole thing into 8 parts
yourmomsbutt: and each of these grids has a different value? grid 0 = 232, grid 1 = 540 etc?
uvBoss: yea the value is the height of the mountain
uvBoss: https://imgur.com/a/xvbRESw
yourmomsbutt: aha, ok, that makes more sense now. thank you uvBoss! :raised_hands::v:
uvBoss: np ;)
yourmomsbutt: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/20e04b8b-0167-4829-82ea-c10cf5a863e3
yourmomsbutt: ok, so i had a look at the solution, and they provide the following loop
yourmomsbutt: my question is, after the for loop is finished, and the largest height is found, and it goes to another iteration of the while loop, won't it basically do the same thing, considering that everything will be reset?
yourmomsbutt: won't it basically print the same value over and over again?
uvBoss: nono
uvBoss: the updated values will be given every frame
uvBoss: every iteration of the while loop
uvBoss: new values will be provided
uvBoss: @yourmomsbutt
yourmomsbutt: ohhh so it chooses the highest one each time
yourmomsbutt: correct, it says "At the start of each game turn, you are given the height of the 8 mountains from left to right."
yourmomsbutt: thank you!
uvBoss: np
MelihEkici: Hi
MelihEkici: can we choose the difficulty when creating a private room?
jacek: no
Thran: It is usual that task are always very easy in private rooms?
SPDene: Thran if you mean a private clash of code: there's no difficulty rating for clashes, but they're all meant to be solveable in 5 minutes. other than that, it's random which ones you get
AntiSquid: Thran, what you do in private is none of our business
Wontonimo: :rofl:
AntiSquid: joke aside, no, it's random for clash afaik
Milas44: ye jk jk
Milas44: ._.
amin_tabriz: Hi
AntiSquid: greetings
hosseinZK86: Input
Expected output
Is HTML a programming language? No.
00110? 0.
abrman: If I have a *.js function with default values, how do I call the function while using default 1st parameter but setting the 2nd one?
abrman: Ahh, found it: functionName(undefined, "Foo") :)
Milas44: html isnt a language
JohnnyLuke: the l stands for language
JohnnyLuke: so ...
magaiti: html is a markup language
magaiti: not a spoken or programming one
magaiti: but a language nonetheless
Hinokami: hola
Peanutbutter_Warrior: gluten tag from german bread
jacek: oO
Trunks123abc: Yo
geriatric1927: Oo
MSmits: testing my new bot. I think its early game is still pretty weak, but it makes up for it somewhat in the late game
MSmits: this replay is interesting
MSmits: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/529196969
MSmits: ply 40 -> my bot knows it lost
MSmits: ply 43 -> due to opponent mistake it's now a draw
Peanutbutter_Warrior: That game just hurts my head, I can't even play it myself
MSmits: haha yeah that's uttt
MSmits: it's gonna be top 10 at least
Peanutbutter_Warrior: noice, gl
MSmits: pretty happy with that because there are no random rollouts
DJSchaffner: can i remove the notifications for people validating contributions? since i am allowed to do that i feel like it spams a little too much
Peanutbutter_Warrior: is that game solved the same way normal tic tac toe is?
MSmits: it's not solved at all
MSmits: but you can solve it from some point in the game, say ply 30 and up
MSmits: in that case it's solved similarly yeah
DJSchaffner: oh nevermind i found the setting for it
Peanutbutter_Warrior: yeah, i was meaning how tic tac toe the best play for any position is known
MSmits: ah no, my bot just continuously tries to solve if it hits endgame positions and some point it succeeds
Peanutbutter_Warrior: nice job
eulerscheZahl: hi, who's up for a short quiz?
MSmits: me
MSmits: what did i win
Peanutbutter_Warrior: whats the topic?
eulerscheZahl: i grouped chat logs by user and generated word clouds
eulerscheZahl: i give you an image and you guess the user
jacek: AutomatonNN did you hear that?
MSmits: thats awesome!
AutomatonNN: why do you want to participate?
eulerscheZahl: level 1: https://imgur.com/a/nCkLnvq
Astrobytes: mk
MSmits: madknight
eulerscheZahl: that's even a reasonable answer from Automaton :o
eulerscheZahl: and yes, MK :D
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/UXsjlNv
MSmits: the ezpz did it
jacek: this could be a puzzle
reCurse: I was going to say MK but CSB was not taking over the whole picture
reCurse: I call BS
Astrobytes: ul jahn?
eulerscheZahl: yes, it's uljahn
Astrobytes: the ye did it
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/kqBSa90
Peanutbutter_Warrior: Dunno, but why is D in there
Peanutbutter_Warrior: D
eulerscheZahl: it's from : D
JohnathanBarbee: D
reCurse: jacek?
eulerscheZahl: the tool removes the :
eulerscheZahl: not jacek
eulerscheZahl: jacek pings automaton much more
jacek: and i dont ping myself
Astrobytes: me?
reCurse: Who elses keeps referencing D though
eulerscheZahl: it's Astrobytes
reCurse: Oh really
MSmits: oh Astrobytes is pretty neutral i guess
MSmits: no weird catchphrases
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/f6WfigC
reCurse: Yeah removing the nick references would make this harder
jacek: AutomatonNN?
AutomatonNN: what do you mean by that?
Peanutbutter_Warrior: D
eulerscheZahl: not automaton
ciel617: i do not understand anything you guys talk about lol
MSmits: darhorse?
eulerscheZahl: nope
MSmits: mmh
Astrobytes: struc t?
eulerscheZahl: hint: the 5th most talkative user within the last 10-11 months
reCurse: jacek
eulerscheZahl: db dr
MSmits: ohh ok
Astrobytes: ah, he's quite neutral too
reCurse: 5th most? He's never here
Peanutbutter_Warrior: oh damn thats a big dataset
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/wRJ5xBw
eulerscheZahl: surprised me too. i'm going by overall text length to say 5th most
reCurse: With the big euler I would say Automaton
eulerscheZahl: yes
eulerscheZahl: that was easy
Peanutbutter_Warrior: or eulersche and he talks in 3rd person a lot
Astrobytes: yep
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/A1kFOmo
reCurse: Ok now it's jacek
Astrobytes: jacel
Astrobytes: *k
eulerscheZahl: yes
MSmits: jacek
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: easy
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/hB3GbgV
Astrobytes: smits
MSmits: me?
eulerscheZahl: smits
Astrobytes: I'm good at this
MSmits: nice
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/1yzxE90
Trunks123abc: Why do they not have HTML
reCurse: useP?
eulerscheZahl: use and :P
eulerscheZahl: :P => P
reCurse: Oh.
eulerscheZahl: i blame the python library
reCurse: Always a good candidate
Astrobytes: recurse?
eulerscheZahl: correct again
Astrobytes: damn!
MSmits: nice job Astrobytes
reCurse: I'm like weasel word master so that should be easy
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/xEJ89gt
jacek: D again
reCurse: it's :D
eulerscheZahl: an extraordinary happy user :D
struct: antisquid
Peanutbutter_Warrior: the ds just crack me up for no good reason
eulerscheZahl: not squid. 2nd most talkative user
MSmits: this users thinks everything is a game
Astrobytes: you euler?
eulerscheZahl: yes
MSmits: ahhh
reCurse: What
reCurse: I thought you'd be 1st
Astrobytes: lol
MSmits: fun quiz
eulerscheZahl: https://imgur.com/a/eYaCCOE
MSmits: now we know who is best at listening here
Astrobytes: Right I gotta run, afk a bit
eulerscheZahl: smits is chatting more than me
reCurse: Yeah was fun, thanks for that
struct: me?
eulerscheZahl: yes, struct
Astrobytes: ok that m,ust be struct
Astrobytes: saw the avx
MSmits: I am nr1 euler?
Astrobytes: later
eulerscheZahl: by text length: yes
eulerscheZahl: see you
MSmits: bye Astrobytes
MSmits: but not by messagecount?
eulerscheZahl: i don't have stats for the latter
MSmits: so I am long-winded?
MSmits: ah ok
eulerscheZahl: easy to generate but i don't have it handy
MSmits: I think I talk in waves. When I do talk, a lot of walls are incoming.
MSmits: I stop when chat is filled with bald old men
eulerscheZahl: so, any specific user you want to see? i have the 100 most active
reCurse: I'm not bald. Wait.
eulerscheZahl: i declare astro as the winner
MSmits: no it's me
MSmits: astro easily the winner
reCurse: You should now use this power for more entertainment and train a chat bot on a specific user
MSmits: btw reCurse, my new non-rollout bot only ended 10th on submit. does 50% winrate vs you in CG bench, but doesnt really stand out in other ways. Still above nagrarok though
reCurse: I still fondly remember inoryy's MK bot
reCurse: Maybe top 5 funny things to happen here
MSmits: i wasnt there then i think
reCurse: No that was a long time ago
eulerscheZahl: how could I miss that MK bot?
eulerscheZahl: :(
struct: I also missed it
reCurse: Maybe I have logs buried somewhere
reCurse: Not sure what to search for though
MSmits: did it just produce mk catchphrases?
eulerscheZahl: fix it ezpz
reCurse: It was scarily hard to distinguish from the real
eulerscheZahl: write a GA for CSB easy top 10
reCurse: It kept referencing random CSB replays with bad URLs
reCurse: Stuff like that
MSmits: that would be funny yeah
reCurse: lol I found myself referencing that bot again to you
reCurse: In 2019
reCurse: History repeats itself
eulerscheZahl: i have a bad memory then :(
MSmits: there's just too much stuff in there
Scarfield: in history?
jacek: maybe it cant avoid draws but at least tries to escape it... https://www.codingame.com/replay/529194852
MSmits: in his head
eulerscheZahl: and you are to blame most according to my stats :P
MSmits: mmh i think you zone out mostly, when i start rambling. I would be surprised if you remembered most of that
eulerscheZahl: i plead guilty :flushed:
MSmits: yeah jacek, your bot is trying to figure it out it seems
MSmits: but those states might be solved as a draw even with infinite time
MSmits: so you cant solve all draws
MSmits: i mean make them go away
jacek: yeah
jacek: but it worked here https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/529195682
MSmits: yeah, that one is definitely solved as a win
reCurse: Oh dear I found
MSmits: but you could still get stuck in repetition
reCurse: December 2016, time flies
reCurse: Not as funny as I remembered though, but still
jacek: its not perfect but ill take it
MSmits: this is not a NN jacek?
jacek: it is
struct: did you use end game tablebase at all?
MSmits: it's hard to use them in the bot itself struct because they are huge
jacek: NN can tells the position's value, and it says its good but if many moves are good it may go round in circles
jacek: no, i didnt. not in game, nor for training
reCurse: For the record I ended up ditching them altogether
reCurse: Was a fun experiment though
jacek: in learning too?
reCurse: Yeah
reCurse: It all ended up worse
reCurse: And using those is a major pain in the ass
MSmits: it took too much "space" in the NN, distorting good play in early games?
reCurse: Like seriously it's a nightmare to use
MSmits: checkers dbs are complicated
reCurse: No it's mostly due to how they're made and how to get good data out of it
jacek: similarly happen to me in bt. for training, i turned off my extended solver and it learned a little bit faster and better
reCurse: They're obviously made to store as little as possible
reCurse: But it makes any use outside their intention very complicated
MSmits: do you mean how they compress invalid states and such?
reCurse: Mostly because of this requirement: a position must not have a capturable piece if either side was to play the next move
reCurse: And they provide absolutely nothing to validate
reCurse: Took me hours to get something decent out
reCurse: And it was computationally very expensive
MSmits: oh right, because when you capture, the branching is small, you need to finish the capturing, then do the lookups
reCurse: Yes, except
reCurse: If *EITHER* side
reCurse: You can end up searching to depth 40 and still not know the answer
reCurse: Unless you do very smart prioritization
MSmits: mmh why 40? Capture chains dont go that deep do they?
reCurse: No but you can't just do minimax
reCurse: Because there will always be sequences of moves that alternate possible captures for the other side
MSmits: isnt that quiescence search?
reCurse: And even checking for repeated positions don't help
reCurse: No I repeat
reCurse: For either side
pabx06: clash of code keep asking if i am a bot wtf ?
JLukeSkywalker: you are too speedy
JLukeSkywalker: or cookies
struct: is to prevent you from becoming addicted
MSmits: i dont follow exactly reCurse, but that's ok,I'm sure I would run into the same issue if i try it and i'll remember what you said
JLukeSkywalker: you in incognito mode or something?
reCurse: It's not just a capture for the side to play
reCurse: It's also a capture if it so happened that same board would be the other side to play
MSmits: ah ok
reCurse: Quiescence is only for captures that make sense in that game, i.e. the side to move
reCurse: But both sides makes this madness
MSmits: I see
reCurse: Oh and I forgot another important detail
MSmits: when I do a endgame db everything is always done from the perspective of the player to move
reCurse: It keeps only information for one of the sides
reCurse: There is no precise way to know other than query
reCurse: So you have half the info
reCurse: Plus those invalid states
reCurse: It's extremely expensive to compute the exact information
reCurse: It's more made as a lookup in your current search
reCurse: If you don't have the info, oh well
reCurse: But if you look to train... bah
MSmits: so it's not usable in a rollout either?
MSmits: say at the end of a mcts rollout where your pieces go < 8
reCurse: It works in the context of a search if I could attach a 40gb tablebase to my bot
reCurse: It doesn't work as well in the context of a NN that tries to train against it
MSmits: because games take too long?
MSmits: or wait, because of the reward check
MSmits: backpropagation
MSmits: you need to look up
MSmits: a lot
reCurse: Well there's a bunch of reasons
MSmits: you check if the NN does the move that comes out of the DB i suppose
reCurse: First it slows down everything with becoming IO bound
MSmits: does *a* move
reCurse: Second you don't have correct information a lot of the time
reCurse: Third if I directly rely on the db during training I need a replacement at runtime
reCurse: To have a replacement at runtime I need the correct way to solve a game
reCurse: The correct way to solve a game is not something that dbs are made to answer efficiently
MSmits: heh, i think if you wanted to do a foray into retrograde analysis, you might have started with an easier game even
reCurse: I have zero interest in this, for now at least
reCurse: I found other ways to deal with endgames
MSmits: ahh ok
iiAbusinq: what are good beginner coding practice exercises
JLukeSkywalker: pretty much any coding golf problem
JLukeSkywalker: you can link to the actuall puzzle from the golf screen
Scarfield: I dont see the benefit of code golf for a beginner though?
JLukeSkywalker: do the non-golf puzzle
jacek: the puzzles are easy, golfield
Scarfield: oh, makes sense
JLukeSkywalker: you can actually solve it in the golf too
JLukeSkywalker: just might not do well ranking-wise
MSmits: i did that
Scarfield: i missed your second message there :) NNcek
Scarfield: iiAbusinq so either what luke jaywalker suggested or take a look at https://www.codingame.com/training/easy
iiAbusinq: Thanks all!!
reCurse: Suggesting golfing to a beginner? Is this trolling?
iiAbusinq: What even is golfing? haha
MSmits: they mean that the golfing puzzles are also the easy puzzles
reCurse: I need to learn how to read
MSmits: i suggest thor, temperatures and batman to my students
reCurse: My bad
struct: Just do CG official Easy puzzles
reCurse: Or stop reading chat while multitasking
struct: thor temperatures descent horse racing
Scarfield: golfing means solving with the shortest possible script, ie. fewest characters used.
JLukeSkywalker: i just suggested it because i think those puzzles other than maybe dont panic are some of the easiest easy puzzles, and good to start with
JLukeSkywalker: you can ignore the golf part
JLukeSkywalker: solving it in the golf no matter what code length you end up with isnt detrimental at all
reCurse: Seems a roundabout way to go
reCurse: But sure
JLukeSkywalker: instead of linking a bunch of puzzles, its easier to just say 'go do the golf puzzles'
struct: Only if CG had a way to filter by success rate
reCurse: Keeping community puzzles separate would have been a start
reCurse: Instead it was made a stop
reCurse: On the plus side it dramatically reduced the number of chuck norris questions in chat
JLukeSkywalker: lol
JLukeSkywalker: for gold csb, does the winning pod have to pass through all checkpoints?
JLukeSkywalker: or can you do like a staggered divide and conquer
JLukeSkywalker: like each pod does every other
Scarfield: each pod has to do the race itself
Scarfield: each pod has to pass each CP to be more clear
JLukeSkywalker: got it
JLukeSkywalker: makes sense
Scarfield: could be an interesting puzzle though, to time and intertwine crossing the CPs with different pods
JLukeSkywalker: yeah, i was kind of hoping thats what it was
JLukeSkywalker: both are cool though, just different strategies
Scarfield: you are free to make your bot work that way xD
iiAbusinq: Should all test cases be done with the same code?
JLukeSkywalker: yes
Scarfield: yes
JLukeSkywalker: when you submit it tests everything
Scarfield: bah, too slow
iiAbusinq: Is it possible to add a second condition (if then)
JLukeSkywalker: yes
iiAbusinq: Do I just add it?
JLukeSkywalker: as long as your code is valid code, codingame should accept it
JLukeSkywalker: with some like version exceptions, etc
iiAbusinq: Musn't be valid then haha
JLukeSkywalker: want to share?
JLukeSkywalker: can paste here, big stuff will auto pastebin
iiAbusinq: I'm trying the Mars Lander Episode 2
iiAbusinq: Not that big, just trying to start out
iiAbusinq: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/03e9ee8d-7903-4569-af58-3407d676ba35
iiAbusinq: I'm just trying to solve the first test case, I don't understand
JLukeSkywalker: looks like the if-elses there arent stacked/indented correctly
iiAbusinq: I added the else for a second time as it said I didn't provide an input in due time, but that didnt fixx it
iiAbusinq: Where should I use else in this case?
JLukeSkywalker: let me try to learn lua if-elses real quick
JLukeSkywalker: unless someone on here knows already
iiAbusinq: Thanks! :)
JLukeSkywalker: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/be575b02-2028-4851-944f-ec2d0bb08e3f
JLukeSkywalker: first indent was off from paste
JLukeSkywalker: but looks like lua if-elses should be stacked like this
iiAbusinq: Ah okay, thanks I'll try it again
iiAbusinq: It works, thanks!
iiAbusinq: Didn't know elseif existed
JLukeSkywalker: np, gl!
JLukeSkywalker: now i know how it works too :)
iiAbusinq: What's the sign for = not
iiAbusinq: Is it ~=?
Lobster_Speed: n
Lobster_Speed: no
Lobster_Speed: it is '!='
jonzel: it almost always is != or <>
truewulfey: while(true)do end
Tee-Resa: blub
Wontonimo: if you want to make your code less readable you can go with ==!( ... )
-oa-: Man, the mars lander crashing is loud! Rip earbuds
MSmits: there's a solution for that
MSmits: :rocket:
Wontonimo: Hey @MSmits, thank for the UTTT help. Made it to Legend
MSmits: gj Wontonimo
JLukeSkywalker: gz!
MSmits: i stopped working on my non-random uttt bot with eval. I got into top 10 with it and it did well vs anyone in top 10 except karli so and toma toes, but in the end it was weaker overall. I am now trying to merge new stuff i learned with my old bot
jacek: is the log still bottleneck?
Wontonimo: mine is (nearly) random. Just the same square heuristic for opening isn't random
MSmits: ah, I did not have a rollout at all. I expanded a node, then evaluated the node, assigning a score and backpropagating that
jacek: evaluation uttt? oO
MSmits: yeah, it beat your bot :P
MSmits: it's up now if you want to test it
Wontonimo: that's what my python imp did. it worked better than my random python but still was stuck in low silver
Wontonimo: tbo, my eval was probably too simple, just placement count
MSmits: more than that jacek, i had versions that beat re curse... but it's likely RPS, most did roughly 50% vs him
MSmits: overall it just did too badly in early game, losing games it shouldn't, to weaker players
MSmits: and it never beat toma toes or kar liso
MSmits: Wontonimo, my eval is centered on calculating the likely hood of winning miniboards, to maximize both the total count of won boards and the probability of getting a line
Uljahn: so the score is float?
Imdone: Hello guys
MSmits: it is currently, i was planning on converting it to a 16 bit integer for speed
Imdone: i need help with algos
Imdone: i have a number
Imdone: i have list*
MSmits: a list of algos?
Imdone: and i need to find number which have least sum of differences with elements from list
Imdone: something like that [-3, 2, -4] -> -3
MSmits: are you doing a clash?
Imdone: [0, 2] -> 1
Imdone: nope puzzle
MSmits: loop it
Imdone: i have solution but it takes too long
Imdone: what is fastest (optimized) way to find it?
MSmits: ah
MSmits: hmm
Wontonimo: what's the puzzle?
MSmits: i can see the problem. If you have a large list, the naive solution is N^2
Saad-py: whats the puzzle
Imdone: netwprk cabling
Imdone: network*
Saad-py: ok
Uljahn: ah
MSmits: Imdone numbers are between what and whay?
MSmits: what are the limits?
MSmits: also are they unique?
MSmits: better link the puzzle
Saad-py: https://www.codingame.com/ide/puzzle/network-cabling
Wontonimo: @Imdone are you familiar with binary search ?
MSmits: oh i solved that
Imdone: -230 ≤ x ≤ 230
Imdone: -2**30 <=x <= 2 ** 30
Wontonimo: 2^30
MSmits: I used a quicksort
Imdone: 0 < N ≤ 100000
MSmits: make sure you have a fast sorting method
Imdone: @Wontonimo i guess
MSmits: i am trying to understand my own solution :P
jacek: i am dumb... i put othello to my new training pipeline. basically copy pasted code from bt and checkers
Wontonimo: haha ... i was going t osay the same
jacek: it stopped at 30% winrate. i forgot about passing moves
jacek: it propagated bad values
MSmits: ahh
MSmits: yeah
MSmits: those are annoying
MSmits: Imdone somehow i used a median value
MSmits: if you sort the values
MSmits: and then take the median. I think it's optima?
MSmits: optimal
Wontonimo: @Imdone , step back and take a look at the whole problem and try and come up with ways to reduce the problem. For example, you know that the cable can't be above the highest house, or below the lowest house
Astrobytes: Take a look at the test cases and work through it on paper
Astrobytes: (or whiteboard, whatever)
MSmits: it's really a small solution, i tend to be very verbose in my old C# solutions, but this one is, aside from the weird house struct i did just to contain x and y and the quicksort, it's just 20 lines
Saad-py: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/254150e2-c265-482a-a4cd-e421ebd03030
jacek: and yes, within 10 minutes it surpassed my half-day bot :v
MSmits: nice
jacek: you hilighted struct?
MSmits: it's not my fault he named himself that :p
Imdone: submitted median, worked out, thx for help
struct: You should use class
Astrobytes: heh
MSmits: ah but then it would not be immutable
jacek: or java. no structs threr
MSmits: oh wait
MSmits: C# structs arent immutable
MSmits: i always think that somehow
jacek: c# doesnt have final, sealed or whatever classes?
Wontonimo: @Imdone , the quicksort works because errors are proportional to the distance to the solution.
MSmits: not sure jacek
MSmits: euler would know
jacek: AutomatonNN ping him
AutomatonNN: hey guys i want to paste it in the beginning on this site and it works pretty well
MSmits: Imdone good to hear it worked, i was kinda surprised too as i remember
jacek: https://www.c-sharpcorner.com/article/all-about-c-sharp-immutable-classes2/
jacek: hmm it seems you have do it your own - use read only properties
MSmits: ah yeah
MSmits: my VS is always telling me to make everything read only
MSmits: it's so whiney
jacek: why dont you listen
MSmits: i probably should
jacek: or is this your wife's name
Astrobytes: :rofl:
MSmits: no, I am not married to VS
MSmits: but I think i might be cheating on her with VS :P
MSmits: spend far too much time with it
Astrobytes: wooo 1st in Clobber
jacek: because im not there yet
Astrobytes: I'm ahead of tric
MSmits: good job!
MSmits: you're on a roll today. First you speed-analyze everyone's speach patterns and then you wrecked the tric
Wontonimo: any word on if clobber is going to be 8x8 or 10x10 ?
MSmits: will be a while until we know
MSmits: i think basically if there is no need for 10x10 it will be 8x8
Astrobytes: lol yeah
jonzel: brillant how batman paces like a mf from one bomb to another in this batman puzzle
Astrobytes: Will be 8x8 Wontonimo
jacek: depends if hardcore players will solve 8x8 withing CG constraints
Astrobytes: Just waiting on a boss from darkhorse now
MSmits: solving seems impossible unless there are mathematical rules you can derive that eliminate a lot of possible moves
Wontonimo: could just mess with everyone and make the board size variable and stated at startup ... 5<N<15 lol
MSmits: there have been games that did that
MSmits: especially contest games
jonzel: how to a prevent this "hard coded solution"flag at the end of a puzzle
Astrobytes: Wouldn't be an issue, just trickier to bitboard
jonzel: i always seem to get some false positives there
jacek: huh?
jacek: what flag
MSmits: new to me as well
jonzel: this message "The validators differ from the puzzle test cases to prevent hard coded solutions. This is why you can have some fails here even if all of the tests provided in the IDE have been successfully passed.
MSmits: good message, this is true
jonzel: this comes up after submitting a solution
jacek: it always shows that if you fail some puzzles
Astrobytes: It just means if you didn't pass them all, that's the reason why
jacek: or your code sucks
jonzel: but I dont fail any and I dont have any hard coded solutions
jacek: so you passed all the validation tests?
jacek: maybe you forgot some edge cases
Wontonimo: you definitely missed an edge case
Astrobytes: It's not insinuating you've hardcoded anything, it's just explaining that the validators differ from the testcases, like jacek says you have probably missed an edge case.
jonzel: I think so. "Play all testcases" is all green
Astrobytes: Yes but what about when you submitted?
jonzel: Wait a sec
Astrobytes: Only the validator results matter on submission.
jonzel: I see :-D one test fails now. Thanks for clearing that up for me
Astrobytes: No worries.
finncode2010: hoi
finncode2010: im new
reCurse: I have a terminology problem if it rings a bell to anyone familiar with graph theory so I know what to google...
reCurse: So you have a graph with some nodes forming a single component. You are allowed to create new edges between any 2 nodes, but each new edge should give the best minimal sum of distances of any node to any other node.
finncode2010: wat
reCurse: In other words, if you have A->B->C->D->E, you should either create A->C or C->E
finncode2010: wat
reCurse: Is there any term or algorithm for that
finncode2010: is happen
Astrobytes: Check with euler for a fast answer, he's on discord
finncode2010: hello
finncode2010: ?
MSmits: ye euler is most likely to know this
Astrobytes: finncode2010: we heard you the first time.
MSmits: if i even knew an algorithm that did this it's unlikely i would know the name =/
nvc-_: yoo
reCurse: The hardest part of research is figuring out the terminology to google :/
iiAbusinq: Is it possible to work together on a code on this site
MSmits: true
nvc-_: y is this so hard
jacek: well i did many graphs algorithms not knowing their name
MSmits: iiAbusinq you could share an ide outside CG and paste the solution here
reCurse: My bad the graph is not directed by the way
MSmits: but you're not supposed to share solutions on two accounts
MSmits: at least not in any competitive way
MSmits: simple practice puzzles are ok i think
iiAbusinq: What's a good online code editor which more than one person is able to use?
MSmits: repl.it, but if you're not paying, it's public
MSmits: this is if you dont want to get involved with gith, which is of course more professional
MSmits: repli.it i nice for short python scripts
MSmits: repl.it i mean
reCurse: Oh I think I figured it out
reCurse: Thanks rubber CG
MSmits: :duck:
jacek: what is it
Astrobytes: don't leave us hanging!
finncode2010: hi
jacek: is it: dissapointment? 5%?
MSmits: oh, is he working on tryangle?
MSmits: make sure to channel the disappointment reCurse
finncode2010: what is happening
reCurse: I think it's any node with distance 2 that has the greatest number of reachable nodes that don't involve distance 1
reCurse: But I can't prove it I'm not mathematician
reCurse: :P
MSmits: you can't prove it to us, but your brain neurons proved it to eachother
finncode2010: btw recurse is a cool name
struct: Does Prim's algorithm work?
struct: Or is it for something else?
reCurse: Oh no I'm wrong actually, forget it
reCurse: Hmm maybe struct, need to read more, thanks for the hint
Astrobytes: Yeah, aren't you trying to find minimum spanning trees?
reCurse: Well it might be slightly different
reCurse: In my problem, the optimal is a graph connecting any node to any other node
reCurse: So all distances are 1
reCurse: The idea is to find an algorithm that would minimize the sum of distances by using few new edges
reCurse: So a balance between number of edges and overall distance
reCurse: Makes sense?
struct: So you want to make it the shortest possible using the fewest edges possible?
reCurse: In other words, the minimum spanning tree is not optimal
reCurse: I could keep adding edges
reCurse: Well I think I can get something good by finding which new edge would give the best result in a greedy fashion
reCurse: So take the new edge which has the lowest sum of all distances
reCurse: Until some criteria is met
JLukeSkywalker: does anyone have a good strategy guide for code vs zombies? I can pass all the tests, but the score is meh
struct: random
Astrobytes: that seems sensible reCurse, until you can get a better answer from euler
reCurse: It just seems wasteful and the kind of problem probably already studied in some fashion
MSmits: JLukeSkywalker I used a monte carlo to get top 300 or so, then cheesed my way to (i guess) top 20 or 30, dunno what it's at now
MSmits: with optims, most of the time the validators are known and you can solve them by hand with some optimization tools to speed things up
MSmits: i guess maybe people used GA and/or SA combined with manual to do this or some smart MC
RSBat: ga = genetic algorithm
sa = simulated annealing?
MSmits: yes
iiAbusinq: How does one use the same code to solve all text cases?
MSmits: it needs to be flexible enough for that
Wontonimo: ^
Astrobytes: Solve the general problem not the individual tests.
Scarfield: ^
Scarfield: AstroWise
MSmits: ^^
Astrobytes: lol
Astrobytes: CaretField
JLukeSkywalker: cg fudge is such a terrible puzzle for color blind people
Astrobytes: *funge - and yes it's a nightmare.
Astrobytes: I moaned but euler told me to make a PR if I was that bothered :D
Scarfield: google told me you didnt call me a carrot xD
Astrobytes: No but the wordplay was intended ;)
Scarfield: im not a carrot :'(
MSmits: dont cry
MSmits: have a :carrot:
Scarfield: xD
Astrobytes: Nope. Just a field of ^s
MSmits: mmh I am compressing the uttt top 20
JLukeSkywalker: my cg funge is a field of ^
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: pulling high ranked down and pushing lower up
jacek: :+1:
MSmits: gonna stop submitting or Vingte will pass re curse :p
jacek: i dont mind some pushing in oware as well
MSmits: already pushed him beyond tomatoes
MSmits: ow, lemme try a submit
MSmits: oware IDE loads soooo slow
Astrobytes: Not just oware
MSmits: no i know, is there something they can do to fix this?
MSmits: all i want is a simple place to dump text
Astrobytes: Donno. It's been extra slow since last weekend loading-wise
MSmits: I see
struct: try opening it with chat disabled
struct: ?disableChat
MSmits: but then i will miss you
Astrobytes: awww
struct: I dont know where all the lag comes from
MSmits: i am guessing euler is taxing the server with his big data project
MSmits: trying to understand our speech patterns
MSmits: and such
Astrobytes: hahaha
Astrobytes: at least it explained his absense
Astrobytes: *absence
Astrobytes: Bet he's doing lots of ML stuff to get up to speed
jacek: hes making his own chat. with blackjack and hookers
Astrobytes: :D
MSmits: ohh thats it
MSmits: he's creating replacements of us
MSmits: copies
Astrobytes: Replicants!
MSmits: so that he can chat with us even at 6 am when the normal people are asleep
Astrobytes: hahahaha
Scarfield: lol
RSBat: sometimes i wish i used rust instead of c++
Scarfield: 25h 20m untill mars landing :o
RSBat: too much unexpected behavior in c++
Explosion-Scratch: hi people
Scarfield: hey
jonzel: Like what expected behaviour in cpp? I am learning for an upcoming cpp exam
RSBat: the one i just encountered was
int a = static_cast<const Foo>(foo).b
call copy constructor of Foo
MSmits: lot's of foo
jacek: you were supposed to push me up :F
MSmits: sorry, if you look at Robo's matches, all of them are with me as player 2
MSmits: I win 100% as player 1 :P
MSmits: bad luck
MSmits: at least you have the same rank right
jacek: ok booker
MSmits: :P
JLukeSkywalker: funge hurts my head
MSmits: it's fudge
MSmits: eat healthier
JLukeSkywalker: got it to do 1-3
JLukeSkywalker: now i need to do loops
MSmits: I suggest you look here:
MSmits: https://www.rxwiki.com/slideshow/6-worst-desserts-your-health/fudge#:~:text=But%20clocking%20in%20at%20around,little%20in%20terms%20of%20health.
JLukeSkywalker: lol
jacek: #keto plx
MSmits: are you on that jacek?
jacek: i try to. at the very least fasting + low carb
jacek: good for brain
jacek: as you can see
Astrobytes: (he eats hay and fresh grass)
MSmits: sure
reCurse: Summing up all those articles and studies seems to indicate eating food is bad for you.
jacek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia is the only way
JohnathanBarbee: It
jacek: and cheap
Wontonimo: 100% of people who eat food eventually die
JohnathanBarbee: ^
Wontonimo: fun fact: you can go without food for the rest of your life
reCurse: Breatharians? I'm perplexed if I'm better or worse for knowing about that.
jacek: you never know until you try it
reCurse: It's like discovering a new uncharted parcel of land in the continent of madness.
struct: Why did I google it :rolling_eyes:
reCurse: That was in the article
jacek: no need for google, i linked it
struct: ah I didnt open the article
jacek: you dont open my links? :<
reCurse: Wouldn't blame him
Astrobytes: "a new uncharted parcel of land in the continent of madness." - amazing.
struct: Is there any research why some people think like this?
Wontonimo: USA
Wontonimo: it's a whole country
Wontonimo: j/k
Astrobytes: Ancient Hindu texts are not always good to live by
jacek: i cant hear you over my third eye
Astrobytes: :P
reCurse: Can't hear about it if the proponents are dead
Wontonimo: if the third eye is in the middle of the forehead, where is the third ear?
jacek: inner ear?
JohnathanBarbee: armpit
Astrobytes: Behind your front-ear?
reCurse: Fascinating, it's true you only hear about an extra eye but not an extra nose or ear
struct: Riots happening on barcelona and madrid :/
Wontonimo: i don't have a "minds ear". Can't imagine noises
Astrobytes: My 7th nose is tingling...
jacek: Wontonimo you have aphantasia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
Valdez001: hello
Scarfield: why stop with food and water only, seems obvious to stop breathing as well. especially from the term "breatharianism "
Wontonimo: yes, audio and visual
jacek: i cant imagine having aphantasia
Wontonimo: @jacek but I do have a spacial sense, like visual, but it contains only concepts. There is no colour or texture
reCurse: So after the dark corners of youtube, the dark corners of wikipedia with your explorer in chief, jacek
Astrobytes: lol
Wontonimo: haha i can't imagine not
jacek: would you explore my youtube recommendations?
reCurse: No.
Astrobytes: Definitely not.
jacek: :(
struct: cat videos?
jacek: cats, dragon ball, mlp, obscure music
Astrobytes: I can do cats in moderation and obscure music. That is all.
struct: I thought mlp standed for Machine Learning P...
reCurse: multi-layer perceptron
Scarfield: problems?
jacek: multilayer perceptron. with friendship extension
Astrobytes: "multi layer perceptrons"
struct: I thought it was my little pony
reCurse: No, that meme is dead, no one watches that anymore
Astrobytes: It is. See the 'friendship extension"
jacek: stop horsing around
struct: *youtube search returned me
Astrobytes: jacek does.
reCurse: Ironically
Astrobytes: You tell yourself this.
Scarfield: xD
BlaiseEbuth: Bronies never die.
jacek: /)
Astrobytes: ...
MSmits: hold your horses.... another brony?
BlaiseEbuth: Oh MSmits ! You're here, but when ?
Wontonimo: i have no horses, and i'm certainly not holding some brony's horses
MSmits: eh always?
jacek: sounded like entrance to heisenberg joke
Astrobytes: Oh you missed it. Blame special relativity.
Astrobytes: And superchat theory.
Scarfield: maybe he came back from the future, and want to know when now is
MSmits: mmh I guess i missed it then yeah
MSmits: i do too little physics this year
MSmits: I'm slippin'
BlaiseEbuth: What's the spin of MSmits when he sleep ?
Astrobytes: It needs to be measured...
MSmits: 1/sqrt(2) * up + 1/sqrt(2) * down ?
Wontonimo: and if he sleeps quietly enough, does his instances obey the poly exclusion principle anymore
Scarfield: relative to what? and in what units [MSmits/day]
Astrobytes: *Pauli
jacek: poly?
Scarfield: pony?
MSmits: I'm not a fermion
Astrobytes: Enough HorseField!
Wontonimo: yes, pauli ...
Wontonimo: yes, the ponyexclusion
jacek: :scream:
Astrobytes: lol
Wontonimo: a Brony Einstein Concentrate
MSmits: good one :)
Astrobytes: heh
MSmits: condensate i think but sure
Astrobytes: Yes.
jacek: eeyup
Astrobytes: Joke still valid.
MSmits: agreed
Astrobytes: (imo)
MSmits: hey Astrobytes, remember when we did oware and we tried EPT depth 5 and experimented with different depths
Astrobytes: yeah
MSmits: i am doing that with UTTT now, see if it does anything
MSmits: before this i only tried straight eval or full rollout
Astrobytes: Well, when we took that to its conclusion it ended up depth 0
MSmits: sure, but in the papers they use other values, so who knows, maybe there is something to it
MSmits: worth a shot. I tried longer shots already
Astrobytes: Worth a shot I guess, you might discover something
MSmits: yeah
Astrobytes: especially eval-wise would be interesting
MSmits: well I know my eval is reasonably good, but it doesnt beat the top 10
MSmits: matches 5-10 or so
Astrobytes: Not bad though
struct: But your eval beats NN eval?
MSmits: not exactly, some versions of my bot had 55% vs re curse
MSmits: but it's highly RPS-ed I think
jacek: if your eval is reliable then 0 depth is enough
Skynse: The frontend of this site feels like it was made with javascript
Astrobytes: You're gonna be in for another few months of fitting params
MSmits: nah, it's just the one parameter for depth, the eval itself only has 2 parameters
MSmits: so 3 total
jacek: you can grid search that easily
MSmits: yeah
Astrobytes: No other heuristics to use in eval?
Wontonimo: @Skynse - what else could it be and how would if feel different if it was?
MSmits: no, it's basically like this
MSmits: the two parameters control two parts of the eval
MSmits: the part that counts expected miniboards won
MSmits: and the part that counts how much your best line of 3 counts
MSmits: the line of 3 you're farthest along with
Astrobytes: Yeah I getcha
Skynse: @Wontonimo - I've just been getting a hunch that javascript is used for the server side operations. For instance, I feel like Django would be more static, but I could be wrong
Skynse: Then again, I haven't used frontend js frameworks in conjunction with django before
Astrobytes: Well, let me know how you get on with tweaking the depth
Skynse: I want to make a startup but can't decide on whether to use django, vue.js, or both
Wontonimo: ??
MSmits: yeah, as i said, it's a long shot. If you don't hear anything, it was a bust, like so much else with uttt :)
Astrobytes: lol, gotta explore the options right
MSmits: yep
Scarfield: when is your UTTT paper due?
MSmits: ehh not sure, i do have other papers i should be working on :P
jacek: :soccer:
MSmits: have to write an introduction to a design/research paper for my studies
Astrobytes: Do it on Oware or something
MSmits: no it's supposed to be for high school education
MSmits: i am doing it for my AI course
Scarfield: lol nice one paperCek
MSmits: probably on optimization and Q-learning
Astrobytes: Ah ok
MSmits: basically travelling salesman and that 3x3 breakthroug game i forgot the name of
jacek: hexapawn?
MSmits: yeah that
jacek: but you already did it
MSmits: yeah i cheated a bit
jacek: and despite the name, there are no hexes there
MSmits: now i have to properly design it using didactic literature and all that
Astrobytes: I think the hex may refer to the fact it is 3x3 pawns...
Skynse: @Wontonimo I just re-read what I wrote earlier, and now I can see how it didn't make any sense lol
MSmits: there's 6 pawns
MSmits: i also did an octapawn self-training game
Astrobytes: +3 is what I meant
MSmits: trains itself by q-learning in 1 minute
Astrobytes: 3x3 grid, 3+3 pawns
Astrobytes: nice
jacek: table :unamused:
Wontonimo: have you tried sarsa @MSmits ?
jacek: or salsa
Wontonimo: sure, that too, i'm curious about both now
MSmits: https://trinket.io/python/c673de5c0f?outputOnly=true&runOption=run
Scarfield: Wontonimo just type a nickname to ping, no need for @.. also there is autocomplete for names: sca-> tab
MSmits: it's solved as a win for human player, so you can still win once it's done training
Wontonimo: AH! thanks Scarfield
Scarfield: np :)
Scarfield: but remember pinging is a great power, and with great power and so on
Wontonimo: Scarfield
jacek: right AutomatonNN
AutomatonNN: eulerscheZahl is there a way to see a framework to be able to check the language to say "solved"
MSmits: are you trying to cheat again AutomatonNN ?
AutomatonNN: give it his game to something interesting :P
Astrobytes: Huh. It almost made sense twice in a row.
MSmits: yeah
reCurse: Broken clock
Astrobytes: Indeed.
Astrobytes: Hm. When analogue clocks die out that phrase will go the same way as the 'broken record' phrase.
MSmits: into a nursing home?
Astrobytes: Just a minute inside your mind would be a very strange experience.
reCurse: To die out they need a cheaper alternative
Astrobytes: lol
MSmits: well i wouldn't know, I am always in here
MSmits: to me it's normal
Astrobytes: 2 * Yeah, true.
Scarfield: i wonder how much of that minute in your mind is taken up by uttt :thinking_
MSmits: mmh ok, so good news the EPT with depth gets better when I let it go deeper. Bad news, thats because when it goes deeper it does more rollouts and my rollout bot is better :P
MSmits: nice timing Scarfield
Astrobytes: Right. Not much point in that then.
Astrobytes: lol, EcksDee on point tonight
Scarfield: I wonder how big "xD" would be on those pictures euler made earlier
MSmits: he has you too i think
MSmits: he said 100 most talkative players
MSmits: I estimate you at 19
Scarfield: lol
Scarfield: thats a very specific estimate
MSmits: well i stopped short of decimals
MSmits: that would look weird
Astrobytes: Highly specific for sure
MSmits: they were pretty hard to guess most of them
Astrobytes: I still can't believe how accurately and quickly I got those
Scarfield: i hope he doesnt have a value/word estimate
MSmits: except jacek
jacek: :F
MSmits: are you doing :F now to have more variety in your next word pic jacek>
jacek: eenope
MSmits: lol
MSmits: Scarfield what is a value/word estimate?
Scarfield: like how worthwhile / word ones messages are to read
Angecide: anyone have had any experience with mcts with rave statistics? basically using moves played during rollout to generate better statistics for moves when expanding and searching
Angecide: I was wondering if this could have positive effect in uttt
jacek: personally i never got rave to working
jacek: but i doubt it would work in uttt
MSmits: i know of rave, but it requires parallel games having similarity. In uttt, you jump to a completely different board on every move
jacek: moves are restricted and dependent on position
MSmits: so one different move, screws up your RAVE thingy
reCurse: It doesn't have raving reviews
Angecide: I see, yeah it probably makes more sense in games like go where there aren't any jumps
MSmits: could make sense in breakthrough
MSmits: not in othello
MSmits: might make sense in yavalath also
Astrobytes: "raving reviews" :door:
MSmits: it makes sense in games where the killer heuristic also works in minimax
Scarfield: yea he is on fire today xD
MSmits: correct me if i am wrong, but killer move in minimax is what rave is to mcts, kinda, sort of?
jacek: somewhat
MSmits: except killer move is probably more effective
MSmits: and less damaging when it fails, as it's just a move ordering thing and not a move value thing
Scarfield: uuh never heard of killer move, have pretty much decided on Minmax, and was considering how to sort moves earlier :)
jacek: oO
MSmits: killer move is when you save for each depth level a best moveindex
MSmits: and use that move first, even on different boards
Astrobytes: you can also use history heuristic
Scarfield: yea looked it up, and found a short and neat explanation
Astrobytes: Scarfield:
https://homepages.cwi.nl/~paulk/theses/Carolus.pdf
Scarfield: have only done minmax once before, so i pretty much only know about ab pruning
Astrobytes: More in depth stuff online but that's a good start.
MSmits: I usually do negamax + AB + TT + history. I don't get more creative than that
Scarfield: uuh ty astro, but i will probably save that for after finishing my first attempt
MSmits: it's the only source i find that has a good example for combining AB with TT
MSmits: that's not a trivial thing
Astrobytes: Yeah, it's quite clear
Scarfield: have been thinking about doing TT as well, but it seems problematic with 3fold repetition and 50 move rule in the 960 chess
Astrobytes: There's that ancient website too
Astrobytes: I don't have the url handy
MSmits: Scarfield, you're right, the repetition is painful
MSmits: but it's painful even without TT
MSmits: because to have the full state, you need to basically know all prior states
Scarfield: i think i have an idea that will work fine without the TT, but my assumptions usually turn on me xD
MSmits: yup
Wontonimo: hey MSmits , I'm curious if you use Q-learning specifically or if you use SARSA or some other variant
MSmits: it's meant for education, so it's the simplest form of Q-learning. Just a table with action/state combinations
MSmits: just to expose students to simple machine learning
MSmits: they play the game by hand also, with actual pawns
Wontonimo: cool
MSmits: to see how a human learns
jacek: sounded like you teach robots
Astrobytes: nice
MSmits: lol jacek
Scarfield: "And slowly the fleshy vessel realises its mistake"
MSmits: :grin:
Scarfield: well im off, gn all :)
MSmits: gn Scarfield
Wontonimo: gn
Astrobytes: gn man, laters
JLukeSkywalker: finally have an algorithm to solve the funge prime
JLukeSkywalker: my brain hurts
JLukeSkywalker: gonna take a break, then i have to try to shove it into the 2d grid
MSmits: gj though
JLukeSkywalker: pseudo coded in python
MSmits: isn't all python pseudo code?
JLukeSkywalker: lol
JLukeSkywalker: http://chat.codingame.com/pastebin/96a3b423-d5f5-4e01-b09e-cbc3398b7fda
Valdez001: no
JLukeSkywalker: just a chunk of it
JLukeSkywalker: its so gross
MSmits: it reminds me of assembly except with a lot more parentheses
JLukeSkywalker: yeah, pretty much set it up that way instead of doing a full interpreter
MSmits: oh wait, that was actually supposed to be asm-like?
JLukeSkywalker: each one of those is a call to a function that modifies the stack
JLukeSkywalker: so yes?
MSmits: I se
MSmits: e
JLukeSkywalker: @out
def app(a):
global stack
stack += [a]
JLukeSkywalker: like that one is the append
MSmits: I see
MSmits: this optim does seem like torture
JLukeSkywalker: defenitely
JLukeSkywalker: pretty sure my solution is gonna time out on the 9991 test case
JLukeSkywalker: maybe not
JLukeSkywalker: i think my print decorator for testing is just making it absurdly slow
MSmits: could be
elderlybeginner: Do you remember any post about scoring data structure for a bot or a contest?
MSmits: not me
elderlybeginner: some basic information how to set a scoring for a bot
MSmits: ah
MSmits: I think you mean an evaluation of a sim state?
elderlybeginner: yes, that's what I mean
MSmits: well it depends a lot on the game, but basically, it's a lot of trial and erorr
MSmits: what makes the most sense is that you try to figure out what features of the gamestate tell you the probability of a win
MSmits: collect a bunch of features
MSmits: give them parameters
MSmits: add up the features multiplied by their parameters
MSmits: and there's the score
MSmits: a useless feature will have a parameter that goes to zero when fitting
MSmits: can you give an example of a game, then i can tell you what features to evaluate (maybe)
elderlybeginner: I wonder what data structure to use. There are some parameters, some side effects
MSmits: i'm not sure what the data structure has to do with it
MSmits: evaluation is a function that returns a number
elderlybeginner: I am trying to rewrite my if/else for codebusters into some evaluation and it doesn't look clear
elderlybeginner: no sim here, just heuristics
MSmits: oh ok, i'm not really the right person to ask about aesthetics, code readability and reusability
elderlybeginner: I miss a separate file for variables and with functions it's getting kind of messy
MSmits: with a good IDE, you can collapse stuff so it's not so cluttered
Astrobytes: There are some code bundling scripts, or you could write your own if you want to separate things into files for readability
Astrobytes: You can collapse stuff in CG IDE also I think
MSmits: yeah
elderlybeginner: thanks guys, I will look into that
Astrobytes: You're using python right? It'll be easy to find or make a script for that for sure.
RanDom2113: hey so I just started today, what program language should I start with?
elderlybeginner: yes, python, right now i wondering how to nicely pack: actions (stun, move, bust, release, etc) with features and multipliers for each feature
elderlybeginner: @RanDom2113 that's seems to be really tricky question :joy:
Astrobytes: :+1:
Astrobytes: MSmits: yay I'm back in Oware top 10. Not that it matters much below top 5 but hey :P
MSmits: that's pretty good though.
Astrobytes: 8th
MSmits: there's 4 nns you can ignore
MSmits: i mean it's not a level playing field with them
Astrobytes: Just trying to pull darkhorse down :D
Astrobytes: Yeah, I kinda ignore the nn's, can't compete currently
MSmits: can ignore me too, I have a book based on 9 million games :P
Astrobytes: Yeah, well, y'know :P
MSmits: biggest before this, was 3 million actually
MSmits: so it's pretty extreme
Astrobytes: Can't really just award myself a feelgood 3rd :D
Astrobytes: Yeah you really went in hard on Oware
MSmits: it's because of the NNs
Astrobytes: I know. It became a mission
MSmits: yep
MSmits: i stopped hardcountering them, just running a general book now, that works too. Cant hurt
MSmits: the previous stuff is still in there though, but they can just submit a new version and the hardcounter advantage will be gone
Astrobytes: Well the general book is about as NN-like as you're gonna get really
MSmits: without doing a NN yeah, it's at least a way to "train" locally, even if it's just for the start of the game
MSmits: the start can go quite deep with a branching of only 5 o rso
Astrobytes: darkhorse64: how is your Clobber boss?
darkhorse64: It's my next weekend project
Astrobytes: cool
darkhorse64: so not started yet
Astrobytes: All good, no rush
darkhorse64: I'll wait for 269 upvote, I want to beat trolls and castles
Astrobytes: hahaha
darkhorse64: Only 260 eft
darkhorse64: left
MSmits: #lifegoals
Astrobytes: btw, my *deliberate* oware submit tonight got 8th darkhorse64 - finally I'm chasing you again.
Astrobytes: lol MSmits
MSmits: gj Astrobytes
darkhorse64: Yes, the safety margin has decreased
Astrobytes: I'm more pleased about getting above tric twice in a day tbh
MSmits: tric is a great benchmark
Astrobytes: You know that
MSmits: i dont mean because he is the best player, even though sometimes he is, at least for a while
Astrobytes: He's not unleashed everything in clobber yet though
darkhorse64: twice. What's the other multi ?
MSmits: but because he is so stable
Astrobytes: Just Clobber darkhorse64, I'm first
Astrobytes: Yes MSmits, exactly
darkhorse64: I now understand why you want a new muti
Astrobytes: I still need to bitboard clobber though
MSmits: huh
MSmits: what else would you do
MSmits: it's a board with white and black pieces
Astrobytes: I wrote my bot in 2 hours
MSmits: it would be harder for me not to bitboard it
Astrobytes: With hardly any sleep, and a hangover
MSmits: then i would need to think about classes and whatnot
Astrobytes: On Sunday
MSmits: yeye :clap: :P
Astrobytes: classes, meh
Astrobytes: You can check the chat logs
MSmits: no I believe you
Astrobytes: I didn't wanna risk doing bit operations with a humdinger of a hangover
MSmits: sometimes you get inspired. I usually take days, but my connect 4 bot was a few hrs and got a good one right away
Astrobytes: I really need to get on amazons, and test jrk e's multi, and there are others too
MSmits: so many
Astrobytes: anyway, won't take long to bitboard clobber, it's simple
darkhorse64: Play fireworks. I enjoy my lead but we are too few
MSmits: seems to be
Astrobytes: Yes darkhorse64! That too
Astrobytes: I think that's a candidate for is it mu-zero? that they used that on?
darkhorse64: I don't think I can AVX move gen because I need left shift and right shift
darkhorse64: Clobber move gen
MSmits: you can combine left and up
MSmits: and do down and right separately
darkhorse64: Yeah, but it's only two at a time, with C4, I do all checks in one go
Astrobytes: Yeah (re Fireworks/Hanabi) MuZero
MSmits: you can run two sims at once :)
Astrobytes: darkhorse64: I don't think it'll be a bottleneck
Butanium: Hey I'm doing the fall Challenge 2020 and I have a problem : sometimes my script take to long to explore the graph so I loose because of that. I tried to implement a len limit for the exploration but it's not sufficient when I have a lot of spell to deal with.
Is there a way to get how many time I have left during the prgm in order to interrupt the tree search if I have not enough time left?
darkhorse64: The more rollouts the better
MSmits: Butanium yes
darkhorse64: C++ -> chrono
Astrobytes: I was considering EPT on it but I might stick with alphabeta, we'll see
MSmits: easiest is a global variable for "timeleft"
MSmits: if it's false, you quit out of any recursive function your bot is in
MSmits: every time you enter a new function you increment an iterator. Every 100 or so iterations you check the time
Astrobytes: Just make sure you backed up your best move so far
Butanium: But how do I know how many time I have for each iteration?
MSmits: you dont need to
MSmits: you only need to know the start time
MSmits: and the current time
MSmits: when you pass a certain limit you set, you quit out of any function you're in
Butanium: ok
Astrobytes: start your timer at the beginning of each turn, if it exceeds the limit you bail
MSmits: say you get 100 ms, you quit at 95 ms
Butanium: it says I have 50 ms per turn
Astrobytes: yep, so bail out at 45
Butanium: it's pretty short :sweat_smile:
Astrobytes: Optimise ;)
MSmits: yeah but it's short for everyone
darkhorse64: EPT, vanilla MCTS, solver à la d&b, may be ml, many approaches
MSmits: clobberTime!
Astrobytes: Yes indeed. I like Clobber in that respect, I think it will be interesting.
MSmits: I'm imagining a fantasy-style orc when i say that, just fyi
darkhorse64: For the fall challenge, I don't even use all available time because a beam search depth 15 is enough
Astrobytes: hahaha
Astrobytes: got your D&D head on
MSmits: yeah
darkhorse64: I don't think Clobber will bea successful multi but I believe it's interesting for ferocious competitors
Butanium: darkhorse64 > I'm dohing BFS for now
Astrobytes: damn, I also still have to do Blocking
Astrobytes: yes exactly darkhorse64 :P
Butanium: that's why it takes that long
Astrobytes: beamsearch is definitely the way to go for that challenge iirc
darkhorse64: Yeah BFS takes too long and does not get deep enough
darkhorse64: Top Gold with a BFS, Legend with BS at least for me
Butanium: I'll try to implement a BS
Butanium: thanks for your advice !
darkhorse64: BS is a BFS where you keep only the best moves at each turn
Astrobytes: n best moves
Astrobytes: n being the beam width
darkhorse64: Selecting the best moves is the difficult part
Butanium: yes
Butanium: Idk how to select them actually
MSmits: evaluate them and sort them by score
darkhorse64: The post mortems are full of evaluatiion ideas
Butanium: you mean the potions or the spells by score?
MSmits: you dont actually have to know whats best. You just create a sum of features with parameters and then experiment
MSmits: then you will learn what works
Butanium: yes I see x)
Butanium: Also I had a question
Butanium: For the coders strike back challenge
Butanium: I went to legend
Butanium: but are you supposed to do reinforcement learning when you reach it?
MSmits: gj
Butanium: thx ^^
MSmits: not really
MSmits: unless you want to be top 5
Astrobytes: well done. What's your rank?
Butanium: 673
Butanium: I didn't change my gold league code
MSmits: so 668 more ranks to get before ML is needed
Astrobytes: And your algo?
Butanium: my algo is just 1 pod reaching the checkpoints and another trying to annoy the enemy team
Butanium: but I struggled with improving my aiming system for the annoying boy
MSmits: ah, then you'll hit a wall Butanium. The better bots in legend all use a search
Butanium: so I kinda give up
Astrobytes: no search algorithm then? You could get further even with just a random search.
MSmits: if you want, check one of my games. My pods say how many simulations are being run
MSmits: select me as opponent
Butanium: what do you mean by search algorithm
MSmits: trying moves up to 7 turns into the future and simulating the outcomne
MSmits: assuming best play from opponent, preferably
Astrobytes: Like your BFS, just searching the game tree
MSmits: CSB is not the best place to learn how to do a search
Astrobytes: That's always a relative one
MSmits: better learn it for simple boardgames, then learn how to apply it to CSB imho
MSmits: CSB has simultaneous moves
MSmits: 4 agents
MSmits: continuous action space
DomiKo: physics
MSmits: and that
Butanium: https://www.codingame.com/share-replay/529286299
Butanium: lul
Butanium: I actually have a search algorithm which just check if I will collide next turn
MSmits: ohh
MSmits: i blocked you and you timed out?
Astrobytes: Right, so you need to simulate a few more turns ahead
Astrobytes: No he didn't make the checkpoint MSmits
Astrobytes: So pod timeout, not search
MSmits: yeah because of the blocker
Butanium: yes it's my nightmare
Astrobytes: That's the job of a blocker no? :)
MSmits: imagine the top 5 blocking even better :)
Butanium: x)
Astrobytes: You've seen the info about CSB? The magu s article, the referees?
Butanium: nop
Astrobytes: One referee:
https://github.com/SpiritusSancti5/codinGame/blob/master/Referees/Coders%20Strike%20Back/Referee.java
Astrobytes: Another referee:
https://github.com/robostac/coders-strike-back-referee/blob/master/csbref.go
Butanium: oh yes
Butanium: that's the things to simulate outside of codingame
MSmits: but you can use it to simulate inside the game
Astrobytes: No - inside too.
Butanium: lol
Butanium: ok
MSmits: translate the code to something you can use inside your bot
Astrobytes: FR version of Magu s article:
http://files.magusgeek.com/csb/csb.html
MSmits: but honestly, try your first search on a simple game, unless you really realyl like csb and it motivates you
MSmits: a full search csb bot will be 600-1000 lines
Butanium: yes I think that if I do some more coders strike back I'll do it whith an heuristic method
MSmits: brb
Butanium: Like genetics algorithm
MSmits: good idea
Astrobytes: Genetic algorithm can work sure, even just random search with some mutations can work too.
Butanium: Random search would be to test random action and see what's the best result within 8 ticks?
Astrobytes: within n ticks yep
Butanium: ok
Butanium: But for now I don't have time to do such a big project like this. So I'll just try to make my witch not timing out because it allows me to practice on my school programming langage ocaml
Astrobytes: Oh OCaml, lucky you :D
Butanium: do you have any other funny bot fighting challenge to recommend me?
Astrobytes: That's cool though, school stuff comes first
Butanium: Yes ocaml is pretty cool
Astrobytes: Just depends what you like. There are a few physics games but they're quite complex
Astrobytes: Many board games
Butanium: I didn't like the spring 2020 one
Butanium: too much agent to deal with
Astrobytes: Yeah, I didn't like that one either
Butanium: what would be your 2 best recommandation, 1 of physics challenge and another one more like a board game?
reCurse: physics: fantastic bits board: wondev woman
Astrobytes: FB easier than CSB?
reCurse: I didn't see any mention of easy in the question
darkhorse64: physics: poker chip race
DomiKo: wondev woman is really great for trying minmax
Astrobytes: Oh my bad
darkhorse64: because the sim is easier to write compared to FB
Astrobytes: Is it?
reCurse: FB is 100x easier to write a heuristic for
reCurse: Just saying
Astrobytes: ^
Butanium: ok thanks
Butanium: when I'll get time I'll give a try to those challenge
Astrobytes: I really need to get up to speed on here.
darkhorse64: I agree for the heuristics part
Astrobytes: Anyway, an omurice and a beer beckons me. Goodnight all
Butanium: cya
reCurse: "I won't submit just to drag you down" "Submits 20 times the next day" :P
reCurse: Just teasing btw
MSmits: yeah, i know.. i honestly do not have a single bot version that does better vs karliso than vs you
MSmits: I tried full rollout, EPT dept 5,10,15,20 with eval, full eval, many different ways to prune
MSmits: all better vs you than karliso
reCurse: It's ok I'm getting used to the trope of anyone else but me getting boosted in most multis :p
MSmits: hehe ok
reCurse: Wish I was kidding
MSmits: maybe your bots are too specialized at beating strong players
MSmits: compared to others anyway
reCurse: I think you could make an argument just as well for the other way around
MSmits: depends on who's submitting
MSmits: in uttt it's usually the weaker players
reCurse: Wouldn't a bot too specialized more likely to be boosted
MSmits: if you're specialized to beat karliso and he never submits, then that would not be good
MSmits: you benchmarked vs top 5 or so didnt you?
reCurse: Top 10
MSmits: ah ok
reCurse: A bot who performs very well in a specific scenario is more likely to be hit by someone weak against it
reCurse: vs a generalized bot
reCurse: IMO
reCurse: So if anything maybe my bot is too generic
MSmits: hmm could be true I guess. But karliso must also be. Everything i try against him fails
MSmits: and against everyone else i had versions that worked
MSmits: though not against all at the same time ofc
MSmits: there is plenty of RPS with a non-random bot
reCurse: Most uttt bots use random in some fashion what are you talking about
MSmits: I mean my non-random bot version
MSmits: if i use it, i get serious RPS effects
reCurse: Wouldn't you get RPS only if both bots are deterministic
MSmits: you would think so, but one is apparently enough for it to become noticable
MSmits: the best "random" bots arent that random in uttt anyway, at least karliso's isnt
reCurse: Biased random is still random
MSmits: yeah, what i mean is, the tree of good moves is muc hsmaller than the full tree
MSmits: and better bots are better at finding those
MSmits: therefore becoming more deterministic i suppose
MSmits: anyways, with the eval-only bot i had situations where i had mealc at 30% and yurko at 70% when their bots are equally strong
MSmits: not to mention you at 55% when you wreck my normal random bot
MSmits: even though my eval bot is weaker overall
MSmits: it's pretty annoying when your bot is so unreliable
MSmits: mine i mean
MSmits: so i am back to random, keeping my new solver, because solving is cool
MSmits: (though it does nothing for my winrate)
karliso: ironic. I remember I asked you about RPS effect when I was starting and you said it is negligible and I should just brutaltest. :)
MSmits: thats true
MSmits: thats what i thought back then
karliso: I think to gain consistency you need to do what others do, just better.
MSmits: mmh in uttt thats probably true
MSmits: i've seen so much rps in games where NN's dominate and minimax bots
MSmits: it's really different
karliso: I felt same in onitama.. like my minimax would beat mcts, but not win as well against mcts as someother mcts.
MSmits: yeah onitama can be like that
MSmits: when the oware nn's were a bit weaker, i could fit maybe 8 param for my eval. Some would cause me to beat robo 70% lose 30% to recurse and i would change a param by 0,01 and it would be the other way aroudn
MSmits: the nn's do this to eachother also i believe
MSmits: recurse is right when he says you need to generalize, but if you generalize and you always play the same move in the same situation then you're still deterministic and a different player that has a lucky set of params that beats this, can pull you down by chain submit
MSmits: that player could have an otherwise bad bot, not even worthy of top 10
reCurse: That's a symptom of CG's broken system, not a specific kind of bot
MSmits: if by broken you mean there's a way to be targeted by the same player over and over then you're correct
MSmits: however, any time you're pitting two players against eachother, letting them play repeated games, says very little about which is the stronger bot
reCurse: Broken as in if you tried to fit an elo curve around its multi rankings it would be pretty bad most of the time
MSmits: i think the problem is that two bots playing repeated games, covers a very very tiny portion of the total gamespace
MSmits: and to call a bot good, you want to say it knows what to do with most gamestates
MSmits: (that are likely to occur)
reCurse: You're treating of a different problem
MSmits: it's related though
reCurse: I'm strictly talking about the mapping of pairwise winrates to CG scoreboard
reCurse: That is garbage
reCurse: The other issue of trying to test a bot in generic conditions is orthogonal
MSmits: it might be garbage, but i think it's a smaller problem than the fact that most bots are deterministic and playing games with deterministic starts
reCurse: I strongly disagree
reCurse: It happens just as much with games with random maps
MSmits: you'll get different games every time then though
reCurse: The submit bias is the single strongest skew factor
reCurse: Of them all
MSmits: oh, i agree with that
MSmits: i thought you were saying something about elo
MSmits: and score
MSmits: in any case, this is not even a 5% problem, but a < 1% problem. Who cares about it except us who fight over the first few spots on each leaderboard
MSmits: if you're not in top 10, you're not likely to worry abot this
MSmits: I can see why you would though
MSmits: I would too, if i wasnt having so much fun otherwise
reCurse: I need that stupid carrot to put the work
MSmits: you need to work out how to use a different carrot
reCurse: But that's where the tough competition is
reCurse: I wouldn't give a rat's ass about uttt if it had 20 bad bots
MSmits: I share you way of looking at this but it's not 100%, part of the fun is the game itself. That's what allows me to ignore the shortcomings of CG more easily
MSmits: i can spend days on a game with 20 players if it's sufficiently interesting to me
reCurse: *bad players
reCurse: Not much fun beating your own bot
MSmits: well lets just say if trictrac, dbdr and such are there, it's fine with me. Just afew that are seriously competing
reCurse: That's why I emphasized
MSmits: no, i do agree with that. you need some competition
MSmits: I also think you and I are different about letting go of a game
MSmits: I cant let go of a game until i try every idea
MSmits: you cant let go of agame until you're nr 1
jtsimmons: This site is really struggling the last week.
MSmits: it is
reCurse: It struggles at this time of the day every day
reCurse: For about uh, 30 more minutes? I forgot
MSmits: think so yeah
reCurse: MSmits: If a game is solved as a draw and your bot is the only one strong enough to do so, how should it play?
reCurse: Just had that random thought
MSmits: oh you mean the bot solved it?
MSmits: if you used mcts solver to solve it, it's easy
MSmits: you pick the move that had the highest winrate
reCurse: No I meant in a broader sense
reCurse: Ok let me rephrase
reCurse: Your bot somehow has the entire table of all game states but the initial state is solved as a draw
reCurse: How should it play
MSmits: hmm, well you would want to maximize the chance of your opponent making a mistake
reCurse: Right, so how do you determine that
MSmits: maybe do a search and calculate the fraction of moves that are mistakes, encountered in each branch
MSmits: pick the highest one
MSmits: make the path of the draw as narrow as possible
reCurse: But the narrow path could be very obvious
reCurse: Say in chess where you need to take the piece back for a trade
reCurse: You could have 30 other moves, all bad
reCurse: Narrowness is not enough to describe that
MSmits: thats true, this is similar to the friction between minimax and mcts
MSmits: mcts will do better where my argument applies
reCurse: There's something irritating me with that notion
reCurse: Not sure what
MSmits: what i just said? Might be phrased poorly
reCurse: Well with this situation in general
reCurse: Your bot could be much stronger but much weaker for it
MSmits: well I encountered a similar issue when doing the bookfight with oldjohn
MSmits: we were hitting draws
MSmits: and i could go off on a different branch he hadnt explored yet
MSmits: hard to decide what to do
MSmits: stopped being interesting at that point
reCurse: I don't see the similarity
MSmits: well you know whatever you do, it's a draw
MSmits: so you purposely try to find weird branches that are narrow and hard to find for the opponent
reCurse: That's true for bots of "equal" strength which you could argue is the case for bots booking like that
reCurse: But I'm exaggerating the notion of a stronger bot by putting it as having the entire game state known
reCurse: But it's a draw
reCurse: You should be able to exploit all other players still
reCurse: But how
MSmits: ahh ok
omer123321: It's fun to watch you guys even though I don't understand a word
MSmits: lol
MSmits: i had this when trying to get out of wood 2 in D&B, i solved the full game on turn 1 as a loss
MSmits: wasnt a draw, but still, everything was a loss
MSmits: so what to do then?
reCurse: Yeah, true
MSmits: you can get out of wood 2 with like 5 lines of code and i wrote a 500 line bot that failed 2 submits
reCurse: Though I'm not sure there's enough space to help draw parallels
MSmits: yeah, well it may depend on the game
MSmits: what route is best
reCurse: Assume chess is solved as a draw, what do you play
MSmits: either you do the move counting thing i mentioned, or some kind of eval
reCurse: It really bothers me for some reason
reCurse: You should be able to win every game still
reCurse: But how do you even determine that
MSmits: you have to know what the opponent values and you dont
MSmits: if you know what he values, you know what he is likely to play and which mistakes he is likely to make
MadKnight: yea that's true automaton2000
Automaton2000: do you know the one
reCurse: Is there a generic way to evaluate the probability of a blunder
MadKnight: since i'm not a mod i can't even tab Automaton2000
Automaton2000: can you share your code please?
MSmits: well say you could fit a very good NN
MSmits: and you find the moves that are most likely to be picked by this NN but are mistakes
MSmits: i think that every version of this NN might give different results though
MSmits: also the calc time used during the game
MSmits: and other limiting factors
MSmits: i wonder if your problem has a name already
reCurse: Well it's probably some sort of game theory exploitation
MSmits: i remember jacek training a NN to beat a TTT bot and doing better than his perfect playing minimax bot
MadKnight: seen YT of a "game theorists" recently
MSmits: vs random bots
MadKnight: he explains game maths pretty well
MSmits: my point about jaceks experiment is that the NN and minimax bot both played perfectly, but the NN was able to exploit some feature about random bots to win more often
karliso: MSmits You wanted to balance uttt. One day I watched video of Anish Giri and he was asked about his reputaton of drawing a lot of games... and he said something like.. if you don't like draws don't play chess, play tac tac toe
reCurse: Yeah I got that
reCurse: I'm just thinking
reCurse: It's definitely possible that knowing too much makes you play weaker
MSmits: karliso was his point that chess has more draws?
MSmits: reCurse you migth be right
MSmits: it takes a similar, but stronger bot to properly predict and make use of opponents weaknesses... maybe
MadKnight: recurs had that exact expeirence in the witches game i think
MadKnight: and now he be like "i think it might be possible"
MSmits: ohhh, that explains why I am not nr 1 in most of those multis, too much knowledge :)
MadKnight: true
MadKnight: stop knowing too much
MadKnight: become like Automaton2000
Automaton2000: it is funny to we have country name same as animal
karliso: Most top chess games are draws.. players have various styles in chess, some take more risks some are more defensive. And decisive score is more interesting for spectators.
FdevM: there is four days that i'm stuck in temperatures challenge
MadKnight: i solved it in 1 line
MSmits: ah I see
karliso: I found it curious that he said TTT, because it is draw... maybe he though UTTT
MSmits: I think he meant it that way
reCurse: I think he may have meant it as a joke
karliso: yeah :D
MadKnight: or he's new
MSmits: when people play TTT they actually often dont draw
reCurse: As in, yes, chess is more drawish than a solved draw game, deal with it
MadKnight: wait
MadKnight: FdevM or kar
MSmits: because most people dont know how to avoid losing as p2 in TTT
MadKnight: oooh ok
MadKnight: my bad
reCurse: I think anyone over 8 knows how not to lose in ttt
MSmits: you would think so, but then you dont play it for 10 yrs and you first 2 or 3 games you lose again :0
reCurse: Please read between the lines :p
MSmits: heh yes, but it's actually true, i did this in my class
MSmits: students were supposed to invent heuristics to always win
MSmits: and that included playing
MSmits: they made tons and tons of mistakes
MSmits: to always draw i mean
MadKnight: Automaton2000 stop losing
Automaton2000: so do i just have to start over
MadKnight: Automaton2000 let's make multiple people to have 100% winrate
Automaton2000: the only way to do it, but i am getting an error message
MadKnight: Automaton2000 let's say it's possible for multiple people to have 100% against each other
Automaton2000: can anyone help me with the chuck norris puzzle
MSmits: you know what bothers me about TTT reCurse, it's similar to your problem maybe. I am inclined to say player 1 has a massive advantage
MSmits: but
MSmits: it's solved as a draw
FdevM: actually i'm not joking
MSmits: so is it true then?
MadKnight: FdevM yea it was my mistake
MadKnight: don't worry
MadKnight: FdevM just explain what's your problem
reCurse: TTT is too simple to be helpful here I think
reCurse: Like I said anyone that spends a bit of time in the game knows
MSmits: maybe
MSmits: true
FdevM: i already did it in my other account, but i don't remember hiw to solveit
MadKnight: hmmmmmmm
MadKnight: sooo
MadKnight: what u want from u
MadKnight: s
reCurse: My brain hurts
reCurse: We assume playing for the longest loss is the best strategy when you know it's solved
reCurse: But is it
MadKnight: Automaton2000 let's keep talking in parallel
MadKnight: with other people
Automaton2000: you know your code is readable
reCurse: It's a parallel to the what to play on a draw
MSmits: hmm define longest loss though
MSmits: when using mcts i define it as requiring the most visits to sovle
MSmits: thats not necessarily the deepest lost
MadKnight: Automaton2000 i should just listen to recurse
reCurse: You know, what is proven to take the most turns to lose
MSmits: loss
Automaton2000: and it's definitely not unique to cg and you definitely need audio/video. zoom works great.
MSmits: i think my way is better then
reCurse: Can you stop spamming automaton when a conversation is happening please?
reCurse: Thanks
MSmits: requiring most visits to prove as loss
MadKnight: Automaton2000 recurs is probably right about anything more than me let's just listen to him
Automaton2000: one of the top 10
MSmits: with my new uttt solver, this is how i pick moves, and against < top 20 players i often see games where i lose, that i still draw because they make a mistake
reCurse: That seems rather anecdotal though
MadKnight: ooops
MadKnight: okay
MSmits: it is, but how else would i d o it?
reCurse: That's what I'm hurting to know
MSmits: i think there might just not be a 1 size fits all answer
MSmits: in uttt for example, there are many critical moves to avoid, to make sure you dont lose on the next turn or the turn after that
MSmits: those are easy decisions
MSmits: but for deeper stuff it depends on what the opponent "sees"
MSmits: what does he choose to explore and what might he miss
MSmits: you can only assume your opponent thinks as you do
MSmits: and then needing the most visits makes the most sense to me
MSmits: and generally i think that might also often be the deepest, or near the deepest games
reCurse: But is there a way to define generically what is more likely to be obvious
reCurse: And use that as a metric
MSmits: generically i can only refer to the PNS thing
reCurse: Or is it really all about meta-gaming and it's about constantly adapting to general trends
MSmits: you read that right?
reCurse: Yeah
MadKnight: guys i think u might have differences in how u understand what's it about
MSmits: thats the general solution i guess, at least it shows which move is hardest to solve
MSmits: its free of domain knowledge
MSmits: my uttt solver certainly isnt
MSmits: anyway, I am getting some sleep.
reCurse: gn
MadKnight: gn guys
MSmits: gn
MadKnight: now i can spam Automaton2000
Automaton2000: if they are still on the same round, the nth zombie killed's worth is multiplied by the given thrust value. ...
MadKnight: meh Automaton2000 is only fun in #fr when he spams "oui" or in "ru" when he spams that his smiley icons are broke
MadKnight: n
Automaton2000: i dont know much about it, but i have a choice
MadKnight: Automaton2000 any content at all? in #world? for the sake of the content?
Automaton2000: i mean, if you have an idea
Camden272: hey guys
MadKnight: hihi
Camden272: how are you
Camden272: ?
MadKnight: too good
MadKnight: can't be good
MadKnight: well y'know
MadKnight: anyway
MadKnight: what are u working on ?
Camden272: can you help me a little
Camden272: im really new
MadKnight: finally
Camden272: what?
MadKnight: yea get to your question
MadKnight: well y'know
MadKnight: i've been here for 5 years
Camden272: ohh
Camden272: well then
MadKnight: i just guesssed that u'd need help
Camden272: so what are the basics
MadKnight: of what
Camden272: that are easy to explain
MadKnight: of what
Camden272: like im tryna do java
MadKnight: cringe
MadKnight: do c# instead
MadKnight: c# is like java + cool features
MadKnight: java is soooo 2003
Camden272: ohh
Camden272: lol
MadKnight: java was super popular in 2003
Camden272: ohh
MadKnight: literally everyone decided to make their projects in java
MadKnight: and literally every single teaching thingy says that java=good
MadKnight: but that's 2003
Camden272: is java and java script the same thing?
MadKnight: NO
MadKnight: don't even think about that
MadKnight: they're not even close
MadKnight: absolutely 2 different things
MadKnight: a and b
MadKnight: u can say they're both in english so that's what makes them similar
MadKnight: anyway
MadKnight: so why u wanna do java ?
Camden272: idk
MadKnight: thats' the news from 2003 dude
Camden272: dream does it so i decided i wanna try it
MadKnight: c# resolved all the problems
MadKnight: wat
Camden272: is c# easier
MadKnight: since when does dream do java
Camden272: on his dream sd
Camden272: xd
Camden272: channel
MadKnight: dream does cool YT vids and also does stream that they think are "too lucky" so 100% false
Camden272: he said
MadKnight: where
MadKnight: gimme link
MadKnight: i'll watch and comment
Camden272: bet
RSBat: you need java to hack minecraft so...
MadKnight: welllll
MadKnight: their "super luck" was related to his whole stream of a ton of plays
MadKnight: and not just to a single play
MadKnight: single play was just a tiny bit lucky
Camden272: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHKcQ184aa8&t=97s
MadKnight: dude they literally calculated that "terrible chance" based on his 3h stream that contained a ton of separate plays
MadKnight: his "world record" would just contain a tiny bit of luck
MadKnight: if u exclude other plays
MadKnight: why would he run a 3h stream that makes his "cheat" overly visible?
MadKnight: directly
Camden272: he deleted the "did dream fake his speedrun" video
MadKnight: wat
MadKnight: there are lots of those
MadKnight: from different sources
MadKnight: cmon it's dream
Camden272: dreams video
Camden272: from dream\
MadKnight: i don't believe he wouldn't thought that playing TONS of games on a broken version makes it obvious
MadKnight: the "terrible chance" is related to a WHOLE 3h stream
MadKnight: not just to a play
MadKnight: it contains a ton of plays
MadKnight: they say - "in his whole 3h stream he had kinda fancy chances...."
MadKnight: he could just submit a single play
MadKnight: and it wouldn't make anyone being sus of him
MadKnight: because it's just "kinda not exactly like that..."
MadKnight: Camden272 he deleted it after he tweeted the reason
MadKnight: Camden272 he wanted to stop this whole fight
Camden272: ohh well then i dont have twitter
MadKnight: i saw it on YT from someone else
MadKnight: i can give u the link
MadKnight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VczZCoZ21jk
Camden272: do you have mincraft java edition?
Westicles: Man, these guys are petty
Camden272: ALRIGHT '
Camden272: ima go
Camden272: bye
truewulfey: man, when you see the same people go on code clash thing over and over throughout the day
truewulfey: like bro "AlkhilJohn" youve been here for 16 hours straight
Westicles: that bro is a bot
truewulfey: i stg then like 90% of the clash people are bots
DhevanSafaHevanafa: bots don't usually submit answers tho
mitfity: bot leaves when 4+ people joins the clash
UnkownUser2768: hi yall
